Who Believes In The Death Penalty ?

[SputnikBoy]

[quote="Lewis W":d2a9a] I keep telling people over and over again that the moral laws of the Old Testament still stand. quote]

How about death for the homosexual and death for those who profane the Sabbath? Where do you draw the line?

I have thought about that before. But even the New Testament says that they should die. Read Romans 1:24-32 and take a hard look at verse 32 when you get to it. I didn't say it but the Word of God did.

[/quote:d2a9a]

So, we begin to see why the Muslim terrorists feel so justified by following 'their book'. This kind of Christian talk is getting dangerous. Bible or no Bible ...this goes against the grain and I won't be a party to it.

 

[GundamZero]

Sputnikboy, you're not getting it. Yes, you're right. Today, it is unacceptable for someone to be put to death for some of things that one called for capital punishment. God set up those strict commandments because Israel belonged totally to God. Sort of, "You live under my roof, you live by my rules or get out." I hate the idea of sounding like I'm advocating a grey area, but I'm not. Just bear with me.

I'll say this again to make it as clear as possible. No Christian should seek the death penalty. It has nothing to do with anything but the grace we are supposed to be conveying through ourselves from God. That being said, we ought to stress grace and forgiveness everywhere we can. But God teachs us to aviod all extremes. That doesn't mean avioding extreme goodness, because that is the original natural state. But it does mean that we cannot simply see some things the same in every instance. It is not prudent for a Christian to call for the death penalty. But it is not murder. A non-believer has every right to seek the death penalty for someone who has slain their loved one. But a believer should execute grace and mercy wherever possible.

John 8 is a pretty good example at what you're getting at ,SputnikbBoy, but we don't have the right to say "If you support the death penalty you're supporting murder. " It just isn't. We stood condemned and ready for the capital punishment ourselves, but Christ took the punishment for us. For sin there is a penalty. If grace abounds, is sin less punishable, less sinfu? By no means! But as a believer, I love when I am persecuted. Remember it was the same God who said "I am purging the evil from among you," who also said to the woman forgiven of adultery, "Is there any one left to condemn you?...Then nor will I. Go and sin no more."

Does God have a duel personality then? Not at all! Christ responded to the Pharisees when they questioned him on the divorce laws,; he said that God gave them those laws because their hearts were hard. Jesus so wanted to show his children the full extent of His grace, but Israel was too stubborn and didn't really want it. Jesus saw that Israel would continue to reject Him, so he gave them thie law, the way His heart worked. Because the wages of sin is Death. Christ took that wage for us.

So then, where do we stand? We will afford grace as Christ afforded it to us, and we will allow justice as Christ afforded it to the desparately lost. Continue to oppose death, but remember that a grieving and rightfully angry person is not murdering the other. They have not sinned, the offender has and he is receiving his punishment. But what you ought to do is this. Whenever you encounter these situations simply say, "But God does offer Grace, and you can too. Forgiveness is for those who forgive, not the forgiven. If you don't seek the death penalty, you won't ever have to worry about putting an innocent man to death. As for me, I support the grace of God."

We cannot take a quick glance at these things and decide what is right and wrong by our impulsive temper. Let us fully understand these things and aviod an ignorant or close minded nature.

 

[Lewis]

Wrong ArtGuy, the death penalty came out of God's system. Even though men were killing men before the 613 laws of the Old Testament. God is the one who gave this stuff to Moses. And it was carried out in a Biblical court of law. And these men of God would hand out the death penalty if warranted. The basics of today's secular laws all come from the Bible. The Bible is what taught man the judicial system.

 

[RichardE40K]

Yes well slavery and lots of needless wars came out of gods so called system is well, I don't see people backing that and certainly not using it. Oh and did I mention, using gods bible system, the British burned each other Catholics and protestants in the name of god, just because they practise religion in a different way, these so called holy men were not just killing for their own perverted views but for fun as well. These men ruled England for many years, switching sides and burning people. I mean using the bible they killed one of our saints Joan of Arc, don’t seem too good now does it, god rest her soul.

This is why the Bible just does not work for me as a Christian, too many people use it in the wrong way, plus is so contradictory in all its laws. We all sin, and I don’t believe anyone has right to say oh god will forgive you if you pray, how dare you. Do you have gods number or something, did he tell you no. Neither did he actually tell you to condemn the man in the docks to death because of his acts, yes I can agree with punishment but with all the twisted and corrupted men and women in power, I will not allow the death penalty to be put into good light. It's murder in my eyes, and as a last note, find out when you do go to heaven what god thinks, ask him. Because that will be the only time you will find out, I just know in my heart god does not want us going down to their levels and murdering in the name of justice, makes me sick.

Richard.

 

[RichardE40K]

PS: You know, looking at humanity I find it very sad that man finds it so easy to judge others. I mean anyone can judge someone else but, could you judge yourself. I know I have many sins and faults. But I shall not go too deep. All I know is that it is humans nature to judge and condemn but when faced with their own problems, I find it is kept quiet.

Its very sad that we love to judge so much.

 

[reznwerks]

death

PS: You know, looking at humanity I find it very sad that man finds it so easy to judge others. I mean anyone can judge someone else but, could you judge yourself. I know I have many sins and faults. But I shall not go too deep. All I know is that it is humans nature to judge and condemn but when faced with their own problems, I find it is kept quiet.

Its very sad that we love to judge so much.

======================================
Man has a responsibility to judge others. Whether you like it or not deterance needs to exist. I think locking a person up for life is cruel and inhumane and also very expensive. Killing a person who has killed another without good reason should himself be denied the priveledge of existing himself. When a person reaches this state of depravity ending his life should concern no one anymore than putting a rabid dog to sleep.

 

[John the Baptist]

This is for Christians or Jews ONLY.

Ok because only one answerd my question, let me put it this way. Who believes in the Death Penalty ?

1 If you do why ?

2. And if you don't why ?

3. Does the New Testament support the Death Penalty ?

4. Does the Old Testament laws for the Death Penalty still hold today ?

5. Who believes is a Eye For A Eye, and a Tooth For A Tooth ?

*******
John here:
The subject is a good thread. Interesting posters 'remarks'! But one thing is troubling for me it seems, it seems to me that there are a good many on the site that argue against the ten Commandments being binding any longer in the first place? So what law does Caesar or Christians use?? :

 

[RichardE40K]

Well I see the ten commandments as very binding, its one of the things of the bible I take seriosly although I have broken number 3, 4 ,5 on several occasions. I'm not proud but hbumans make mistakes. It's in our nature, but yea I follow them as best I can.

Worship no other god.
No pictures or idols to worship.
Do not speak the lords name in vain.
Do not work on Sundays.
Respect you’re parents.
Do not murder.
Do not be unfaithful to husband or wife.
Do not steal.
Do not speak falsely against others, that includes accusing.
Do not envy another persons positions.

PS: I don’t know about America but British prisoners get it very easy, church service, TV, some with cable, bed, food and shelter, recreation rooms, gym… the whole system has gone nuts.

 

[SputnikBoy]

[quote="Lewis W":cc1e9]This is for Christians or Jews ONLY.

Ok because only one answerd my question, let me put it this way. Who believes in the Death Penalty ?

1 If you do why ?

2. And if you don't why ?

3. Does the New Testament support the Death Penalty ?

4. Does the Old Testament laws for the Death Penalty still hold today ?

5. Who believes is a Eye For A Eye, and a Tooth For A Tooth ?

*******
John here:
The subject is a good thread. Interesting posters 'remarks'! But one thing is troubling for me it seems, it seems to me that there are a good many on the site that argue against the ten Commandments being binding any longer in the first place? So what law does Caesar or Christians use?? : [/quote:cc1e9]

Good point, John. The majority of Christians don't seem to know exactly WHICH page they are on. Much of the Christian belief system revolves around the 'inner man' ...not the scriptures. You will probably find that those who don't have a problem with the death penalty also don't have a problem about God imposing eternal torment in hell for 'criminals'. Interpretation of the scriptures is all too often relative to the individual.

 

[SputnikBoy]

Well I see the ten commandments as very binding, its one of the things of the bible I take seriously although I have broken number 3, 4 ,5 on several occasions. I'm not proud but humans make mistakes. It's in our nature, but yea I follow them as best I can.

Worship no other god.
No pictures or idols to worship.
Do not speak the lords name in vain.
Do not work on Sundays.

??? As a tongue-in-cheek comment you are profaning God's Sabbath if you believe it to be Sunday. Death for you, my friend.

Respect you’re parents.
Do not murder.
Do not be unfaithful to husband or wife.
Do not steal.
Do not speak falsely against others, that includes accusing.
Do not envy another persons positions.

They really are not THAT much a burden for us to keep, are they? Except, perhaps, the Sabbath one. ;-)

PS: I don’t know about America but British prisoners get it very easy, church service, TV, some with cable, bed, food and shelter, recreation rooms, gym… the whole system has gone nuts.

Do you honestly begrudge a fellow human being bed, food, and shelter, church service, a reason for existing? I'm sure glad that YOU are not in charge of the system.

 

[Lewis]

Last week I think it was in Michigan a family was murdered, even the little children, so tell me what should this fool or fools, get if caught ? Should they get life, and get to live and watch TV go to the gym, sit around and play checkers, get visits from their family even though they have wiped another family off the map ? No they should not, they should be put to death.

 

[John the Baptist]

Last week I think it was in Michigan a family was murdered, even the little children, so tell me what should this fool or fools, get if caught ? Should they get life, and get to live and watch TV go to the gym, sit around and play checkers, get visits from their family even though they have wiped another family off the map ? No they should not, they should be put to death.

******
No offence meant by my question to the post!
But this finds me again 'inside' of the Bible. The paragraph say's that 'I think' that it was in Mi.? And it says.. 'so tell me what should this fool or fools, get if caught?'

First: We need concrete proof of guilt.

I have no problem in knowing that the crime is satanic, and the person could require execution? Even in Revelation 18:4 we see God telling 'us' that we can be partakers of the crime & be 'executed' as in Obadiah 1:16. But this crime is measured 'by man' much more gory than these ones of Rev. 18:4, huh?

The problem arises of one being tried justly, even of one or 'two witnesses' and by Bibical standards. That is what the heavenly Record books are for, and the [just] judgement, as I see it. Our laws as I see it are for the most part Bible based. Yet, stray far & wide from it's bottom line truth!

Folks like to say that God does not kill. (murder) But, justice is demanded by the Godhead. And all flagrant sin & sinners will be 'eternally' executed and justly so. Nahum 1:9 But these ones are not seen as the paragraph above presents?? It is gory & gruesome, yet we see God in a different 'light' as quoted by Christ in Luke 12:47-48 or even in Revelation 3:16-17.

But, trying to answer the posed question when all is followed correctly? (If Acts 5:29 & Romans 13 is being followed along this Truth?) then yes God believes in justifiable execution. It is called His strange act. But be sure to take note that Caesar in Romans 13 is only given the jurisdiction over the second table of the Covenant of the Godhead, and that is also CONDITIONAL!

---John

 

[Lewis]

Of course John there should be proof, I have a big problem with people being put to death and did not do the crime. I mean I have a big, big problem with that. Even people put in jail who are innocent.

 

[RichardE40K]

Exactly, and most of the time we can not actually 100% say that they are guilty, so I just think its too risky. And oh well, the Sabbath is Sundays, I try my best to not work on that day but with modern times its hard, I do have to revise for university studies you know. And no the ten commandments are not hard to follow but yep I have cursed god and I have said things like god damn, and I have been rude to my parent once or twice. I can't imagine anyone who has never had an argument with their parents, its not natural, life is not a box of roses where everything is always calm and nice. I am sorry for my sins but I won’t lie about them and act as if I’m some holy man, no one is, we all sin, fact.

On a last note, I do not condemn a man to have a bed, shelter and food, I do condemn a man to have recreational facilities and to have trips out to theme parks and what have you after committing a crime.

 

[Lewis]

But if they can prove that the culprit or culprits have done the murders, like these rape murders, and the culprit leaves his DNA in the body, and fingerprints
and other types of proof. I think that they should get the chair. Now in that case I was talking about up above. What did thoses little babies do ? What could they do, to make you kill them. A person like that does not deserve to live.
And it's Biblical, or I wouldn't say it. And after they find out with proof who did it the punisment should be carried out fast and there is a reason for that.
Read Ecclesiastes 8:11

Ecclesiastes 8:11 (King James Version)
11Because sentence against an evil work is not executed speedily, therefore the heart of the sons of men is fully set in them to do evil.

In other words if you don't get with them after they have been proven to be guilty. And not by some over zealous prosecutor trying to make a name for him or herself. Do what must be done then, People know that if they murder someone it can take more than 20 or more years before they get the chair. Because appeal after appeal can keep you around. Except maybe in Texas.
They don't play, but they have put some innocent people to death. And it all starts with, over zealous prosecutors. Even when you are found innocent over zealous prosecutors don't want to even let you go. I have seen it to many times. But if you the person who killed them babies, you deserve death.

 

[SputnikBoy]

Exactly, and most of the time we can not actually 100% say that they are guilty, so I just think its too risky. And oh well, the Sabbath is Sundays, I try my best to not work on that day but with modern times its hard,

Richard, I really DO have to jump in here. The Sabbath is NOT Sunday. Sunday was initiated by man, not God, so you can regard it as a normal day. If you REALLY desire to keep the Sabbath you're going to have to keep Saturday which is probably even harder for you to keep. The SEVENTH-day is the Sabbath, not the FIRST day. Just setting the facts straight.

I do have to revise for university studies you know. And no the ten commandments are not hard to follow but yep I have cursed god and I have said things like god damn, and I have been rude to my parent once or twice. I can't imagine anyone who has never had an argument with their parents, its not natural, life is not a box of roses where everything is always calm and nice. I am sorry for my sins but I won’t lie about them and act as if I’m some holy man, no one is, we all sin, fact.

Tell that to those on the 'homosexual' page. :wink:

On a last note, I do not condemn a man to have a bed, shelter and food, I do condemn a man to have recreational facilities and to have trips out to theme parks and what have you after committing a crime.

Incarcerate a man and lock him in a cage without any form of mental stimulation and he might as well be dead. It's society's responsibility to care for a prisoner in a humane manner. Sport, educational facilities, even TV (is most of it worth watching anyway?) should not be denied the inmate. The punishment IS incarceration and NOT humiliation or the removal of items that may be beneficial to the possible rehabilitation of the person. The prison inmate NEVER ceases to be a human being. Some Christians on this thread don't seem to realize this.

 

[John the Baptist]

Of course John there should be proof, I have a big problem with people being put to death and did not do the crime. I mean I have a big, big problem with that. Even people put in jail who are innocent.

***
The Lord gave the USA in foreknowledge the privilege to be a very blessed Nation. I see it as being told.. that He sees it as stated, from a Lamb like one into a dragon like ending.

As was given from Romans 13 by others as well, there is seen Caesars work. And it is only the second table of the Eternal Covenant that Paul is inspired to point out that God had given His N.T. theocracy to minister. And this is CONDITIONAL! We are told that they will go from Lamblike, and are to become dragon like when they become involved in His restricted first table of the Covenant. Acts 5:28-29.(separation of church & state)

Anyway: As far as the part of the 'big' problem goes, we agree! :wink:
Surely juries are going the way of the church. We see the 'results' of the Revelation 17:1-5 ones, do we not? Yet, the thing that [we] find, is that we too get caught up in this mess! Take a peek at the daily trite inside of Rome itself. And then we see & hear that they have the 'keys to the kingdom'. And when one believes in the Eternal Covenant of the Godhead of Hebrews 13:20, and you say that Rome is what God call's her in cap's even. What does one hear? It is easy to see that very soon now, we will be the criminals when calling the Revelation 17:5 ones what God does. And if we do not?? READ ON!

The above is the same message seen in the USA's Educated criminal court of Caesar today. And surely the many 'folds', huh? Even to the 'evil' spirits proclamation that there is no law. : We are all sinners & and sin is a sickness beyond our control we are told by 'christian' pulpits. Well, the bottom line Truth to that. is that most of the world population are 'lost sinners' as told of Christ in Matthew 7:13-14, and the reason why in Matthew 7:21-27.

A quick note about execution by jury trial?
It takes time! It takes evidence!
Even with a mistake or not, it still is the best way when followed by Bibical rule.
Now, when one is put to death even wrongly or rightly, they KNOW when they are going to die. We do not, as a rule. The executed one has time to prepare & make it right, long after the crime even! We do not, and we are all going to die. See Ecclesiastes 12:13-14 important end.

Ask yourself, which one has the best opportunity of eternal life, (see Revelation 3:16-17 (and make no mistake, being SPEWED OUT means Eternal death!) the one who claims Christ, yet, dies 'Lukewarm' & that being.. sudden or quickly at any time, or the criminal as the one on the cross next to Christ?

Let's just say this in closing? Life is a lot of daily decisions being made, even judgements in the moral sense! When we pass on the required duty side of our 'just' judgements to be made, we are no better than the criminal even that Caesars law acknowledges, which is again based on Revelation 18:4 as I see it. The inspired verse states that we are PARTAKERS of the sin, regardless of the sin! Caesar says this, the Godhead Eternally Covenanted it, ... but what are earth's population hearing? even inside the church's? If & [when] (and it will!) the swing comes back, we will hear the same history repeat of only nine/tenths of James 2:8-12, with sun over the forth Seventh-day Sabbath commandment being enforced. Daniel 7:25

---John

 

[RichardE40K]

What is that supposed to mean, tell that to the homosexual page. If you’re indicating that gay men and women are sinners I highly disagree with you even though I don’t believe the act of homosexuality is right.

Anyway yea sure, burn them all. I'm sick of this now, its turned into all this hate and kill the murders, lets just make yourselves as low as them. I'm very ashamed, I don’t care if it says this is ok in the bible or not, this just proves once again that humanity has many holes, and all this revenge do good nonsense is one of them.

I really don’t think man has evolved much, I mean we are still theoretically in the day of when Christians went out grabbed someone like some mob and burned them at the stake, its pathetic sad and people can think they are holy or not, I certainly don’t think it is, neither is it a good way to go about, its sick.

 

[SputnikBoy]

What is that supposed to mean, tell that to the homosexual page. If you’re indicating that gay men and women are sinners I highly disagree with you even though I don’t believe the act of homosexuality is right.

Richard, my friend, don't get yourself into such a twist. If you'd been to the 'homosexual page' you would know that I don't necessarily believe homosexuals to be sinners ...not because of their orientation anyway. What I meant by that remark is that there are any number of 'holy men' (as you put it) on that page who point the finger at others (homosexuals). If you check out that thread you'll see what I mean and what I meant.

Anyway yea sure, burn them all. I'm sick of this now, its turned into all this hate and kill the murders, lets just make yourselves as low as them. I'm very ashamed, I don’t care if it says this is ok in the bible or not, this just proves once again that humanity has many holes, and all this revenge do good nonsense is one of them.

Richard, I'm against the death penalty. I'm against the stoning of homosexuals and adulterers or people who profane the Sabbath. I'm against Christians promoting hatred toward ANY group of people. So, I don't know who you are referring to in your above 'rant'. Please be more specific so that others can follow your line of thought.

I really don’t think man has evolved much, I mean we are still theoretically in the day of when Christians went out grabbed someone like some mob and burned them at the stake, its pathetic sad and people can think they are holy or not, I certainly don’t think it is, neither is it a good way to go about, its sick.

Yes, there is still very much a witch-hunt mob mentality within Christendom. But you yourself have shown great disdain toward prison inmates that is somewhat confusing given your remarks above. I've responded to these previously. Where, exactly, do you stand on this issue? You need to make a firm stand, one way or the other, and stick with it.

 

[John the Baptist]

What is that supposed to mean, tell that to the homosexual page. If you’re indicating that gay men and women are sinners I highly disagree with you even though I don’t believe the act of homosexuality is right.

Anyway yea sure, burn them all. I'm sick of this now, its turned into all this hate and kill the murders, lets just make yourselves as low as them. I'm very ashamed, I don’t care if it says this is ok in the bible or not, this just proves once again that humanity has many holes, and all this revenge do good nonsense is one of them.

I really don’t think man has evolved much, I mean we are still theoretically in the day of when Christians went out grabbed someone like some mob and burned them at the stake, its pathetic sad and people can think they are holy or not, I certainly don’t think it is, neither is it a good way to go about, its sick.

*******
No, I see the 'post' as very stupid. If the ones who are open self convicted violators of the Godheads Eternal Covenant? then they will end up as any other sinner of Obadiah 1:16

And the 'stupid' (see Matthew 25:2) reasoning that Christians are like a 'mob' is no better than the remark, as I see it.
And the idea of one sin of the ten being any worse than the other 9 does not agree with God's Covenant either!! James 2:8-12.

---John