Who Believes In The Death Penalty ?

[RichardE40K]

Ok sorry but I'm just so annoyed by this rally, I get this every day where I live, people claiming to be Christians but when it comes to judging someone, this is what I get from people. I don’t care, the bible says that I am right, put the murder on the chair and everything will be fine, its barbaric. And I was not aiming my post at any certain individual, but all those that use the bible as reasoning for the murder of convicts. And also my views on inmates I have made clear, yes they may have a bed, toilets, food and exercise for a few hours, but that’s it. I don’t want them to be in cages but neither do I want them having the privileges free people deserve either, I just see it as balance. I too believe in fair treatment of inmates, I suppose my posts have just been hazy, I apologise for this.

I as a Christian just find it very hard sometimes when my religion is used for the use of murder, hatred and what not. It's really sad.

Studying my own countries religion in England, there is a very bad vibe I get. The fact is, in the old days of England, Christians did get into rallies and grab the local offender and burn them or whatever. The church ruled England for many years, persecuting and hurting many many people. I know this is over now as with science and fair rule it died down, but all I’m tryin gto get across is that they used the bible, a good book for reasoning of their acts, and they went to any length to kill and persecute. IF we have to run to the bible to decide weather we should kill an inmate, I find it very upsetting that some people have not changed, those holy words are dangerous in the wrong hands, there is no end to it, that’s why I feel so inspired to try and stop it.

PS: John, call me ignorant but I didnt understand you're post.

 

[sehad]

Richard, I see your point very well. Using the church for persecution of others is a horrible act that once occurred. I'm just unclear if you are talking about them killing convicted criminals or them killing others because of religion. The bible is clear that we should not murder. But I do not see the death penalty as murder. Murder is the killing of someone or something for no particular reason besides to do it. This is not the case in the death panatly. Several times GOD commanded the children of Isreal to kill people, especially in the land of Canaan and for what? Nothing other than being there really. As I said earlier, murder is the killing of someone for no particular reason or for selfish reasons(you're mad or they did you wrong), which in the case of the death penalty I see as self-defense. Let me ask you this. Would you go to war for your country?

 

[RichardE40K]

They used it for everything, killing criminals, people with different views to the bible. Race, sexual orientation, anything really.

Maybe I just fear how my immortal soul would be judged by god if I said yes the death penalty is fine and they were innocent or if they were truly sorry for their sins. It's funny that I write about fictional violence, read it and watch violent films and games. But when it comes to real life I could not harm any human being, weather they are bad or good. I just cannot hurt a fellow human being, maybe I am just weak, I don’t know, I really need guidance as all I know is that I know in my heart, god does not want me to hurt or allow hurt or killing. It's so complex.

And, well all the men on my mothers side, fought in the wars or served their country. I don’t know if I could. I as a person don’t feel there is a threat out there, I feel that we are lied to everyday by our governments, England and America so I don’t know.

When you look at it, this man or woman who has committed this crime, whatever. They are now defenceless in their cell, they have committed the crime but cannot harm anymore. To look at them, and say as a fellow human being, because that is what I am, I’m above no one and no one is above me. To sentence death, is above me, I can’t do it. I don’t feel that I have the right, I believe in a law and jail system, but taking a life. That’s not my decision. And I cant say what I would do if I saw someone hurting my partner/wife or children or any person. Maybe I would stay calm and hope for god to guide me, or blind rage could consume me, I hope it is half and half. While they are stil dangerous to me, I say do whatever to take the Criminal down. However once behind bars, I cant pass death judgement.

I hope this is clear now.

 

[sehad]

Maybe I just fear how my immortal soul would be judged by god if I said yes the death penalty is fine and they were innocent or if they were truly sorry for their sins. It's funny that I write about fictional violence, read it and watch violent films and games. But when it comes to real life I could not harm any human being, weather they are bad or good. I just cannot hurt a fellow human being, maybe I am just weak, I don’t know, I really need guidance as all I know is that I know in my heart, god does not want me to hurt or allow hurt or killing. It's so complex.

This may be so, I cannot say what GOD wants you to do. I can only assume that you really really feel this or you would never claim it. It is true that the death penalty is not one of violence. In fact, they are not even awake whenever they are "killed". They are put to sleep with an injection and then their heart stopped with another. Then go peacefully. Which is more than can be said for those that were murdered by them. I do not see your stance as weak. I do see it as a little misunderstanding of what the bible says. I mean, what would you think if your heard of a story of a family getting brutally murdered and the man that was there just standing by and letting it be done? He would not be much of a man in my book or yours I would imagine. GOD did not condone murder by any means but killing he did.

And, well all the men on my mothers side, fought in the wars or served their country. I don’t know if I could. I as a person don’t feel there is a threat out there, I feel that we are lied to everyday by our governments, England and America so I don’t know.

My ex-youth pastor, someone I love, admire, and respect is of the same opinion. He has often stated that he would go to war but as a medic or something if he was called upon but he feels that he could not take up arms. Him saying that he would go and help, just not kill shows that he is not a coward but just a concienous objector(as your are). I have no problem with this, I just can't understand how one would come to this conclusion with all the fighting that Isreal did, but to each their own. I do not condemn him or you for this, just not my thinking.

When you look at it, this man or woman who has committed this crime, whatever. They are now defenceless in their cell, they have committed the crime but cannot harm anymore. To look at them, and say as a fellow human being, because that is what I am, I’m above no one and no one is above me. To sentence death, is above me, I can’t do it. I don’t feel that I have the right, I believe in a law and jail system, but taking a life. That’s not my decision. And I cant say what I would do if I saw someone hurting my partner/wife or children or any person. Maybe I would stay calm and hope for god to guide me, or blind rage could consume me, I hope it is half and half. While they are stil dangerous to me, I say do whatever to take the Criminal down. However once behind bars, I cant pass death judgement.

I hope this is clear now.

This is the same thing that President Bush had to battle after 911. The terrorist are out of our country so why go after them? To prove that there will be consequences for your actions. I have a friend that is a marine in IRAG. The have sewn into shirts "It's GOD job to forgive and the Marine's job to set up the meeting." Doesn't really fit to this, but I still like it. The death penalty is a deterrant to someone contemplating murdering someone. I mean, life in jail is a better life than some of those people have on the street so this is not necessarily a punishment for them.

 

[RichardE40K]

I see what you are saying but I still could not kill a defenceless person, who is in a cell, now posing no threat to anyone. I won't go into the war, that just causes heated debate, I'm not an objector to war, I just object to needless war and lies. As a last thing, I dont see the death penalty or jail even as a detrrant, America has a huge murder rate every year, maybe the system is failing?

Thank yo ufor you're post though, and others. I suppose at the end of the day, we as humans are never 100% positive, there are so many other factors to consider, sometimes this is not possible though.

 

[sehad]

I see what you are saying but I still could not kill a defenceless person, who is in a cell, now posing no threat to anyone. I won't go into the war, that just causes heated debate, I'm not an objector to war, I just object to needless war and lies. As a last thing, I dont see the death penalty or jail even as a detrrant, America has a huge murder rate every year, maybe the system is failing?

Agreed on the war thing, when I'm sure that NO ONE knows the full truth of what and why it really went on over there. Agreed on the needless war and lies thing too. I do see jail as a deterrant. In fact, I can speak from personal experience that it has kept me and several of my friends from doing things. Compare our murder rate to those overseas(I'm not suggesting that we go to this). Some countries being convicted of drug charges, DUI's and such you are shot. Very very low crime rates there.

Thank yo ufor you're post though, and others. I suppose at the end of the day, we as humans are never 100% positive, there are so many other factors to consider, sometimes this is not possible though.

Agreed and I think you are the first(including myself) that will admit that they are not 100% positive.

 

[RichardE40K]

No we wont go to that, just causes arguements. Jail does not stop me, its my consience, but still I would hate to go there. Well we are not perfect, we all make mistakes, I'm just gald this forum has adult conversations with good views.

 

[ArtGuy]

As a last thing, I dont see the death penalty or jail even as a detrrant, America has a huge murder rate every year, maybe the system is failing?

You may not see it as a deterrant, but that doesn't mean it's not - some tudies have shown otherwise. Also, the murder rate (and the violent crime rate in general) has been falling for awhile.

 

[SputnikBoy]

PS: John, call me ignorant but I didnt understand your post.

You and the rest of us! Cliff notes should be supplied with JtB's posts.

 

[RichardE40K]

I'm not trying to be rude lol. I just read it over and over. I'm a 21 year old man doing English studies in univercity and I just could not understand it.

Oh and art guy, yes ok I will agree if crime levals are dropping and people say it is a deterrant, I will submit that jail is a blockade for crime, but that doesnt include everyone. Not me anyway, but like I have said, its because I love my fellow huamn bieng and I have a brain and consience is the reason I dont break the law.

 

[SputnikBoy]

As a last thing, I dont see the death penalty or jail even as a detrrant, America has a huge murder rate every year, maybe the system is failing?

You may not see it as a deterrant, but that doesn't mean it's not - some studies have shown otherwise. Also, the murder rate (and the violent crime rate in general) has been falling for awhile.

For the death penalty - or ANY penalty for that matter - to be a deterrant, one would have to weigh up the consequences for their actions BEFORE committing a crime. The facts are that, more often than not, offenses are committed with nary a thought for the consequences. Human beings are not particularly noted for their reasoning skills.

The death penalty would be no more a deterrant than a lengthy spell in prison, even if one DID consider the consequences in advance of their actions. Neither death or prison are very appealing to the logical mind. But, as mentioned, the consequences are rarely if ever considered since the offender doesn't intend to be caught in the first place.

Furthermore, MANY capitol offenses (murder) are committed in the heat of the moment. Such offenses leave no room for thoughtful evaluation of the proposition, 'what might happen to me if I'm caught?'

As for studies and findings. They should always be regarded with healthy scepticism. They can - and often are - slanted to favor those who initiated a particular policy in the first place since they are usually conducted BY those who initiated the policy. 'Positive' results would be a given. These days I've taken to using 'critical thinking' skills for almost everything. And that includes dogmatic Christian beliefs that are based on ambiguous or even non-existent scriptures.

 

[RichardE40K]

Good point too, I suppose it could act as a deterrant for say, organised crime such as organised bank robbery and such. Then again I'm sure the money would take away thier logical thinking.

Green is truely the colour of the devil lol.

 

[ArtGuy]

As for studies and findings. They should always be regarded with healthy scepticism. They can - and often are - slanted to favor those who initiated a particular policy in the first place since they are usually conducted BY those who initiated the policy. 'Positive' results would be a given. These days I've taken to using 'critical thinking' skills for almost everything. And that includes dogmatic Christian beliefs that are based on ambiguous or even non-existent scriptures.

The most prominent of the studies was performed by a group of economists on a strictly research-based basis. They had no agenda, and their methods were pretty sound. I would wager that if I'd said that there were studies showing no deterrance at all, you'd have been very supportive of them. Do you feel that all scientific research is valueless, or just when it disagrees with your own preconceived notions?

There are certain types of crime and criminals that are not much subject to deterrant effects, true. But to say that this is true of every crime and every criminal strikes me as bizarre. Do you have a habit of driving in the carpool lane when you're alone in the car? I sure don't. You know why? Because I don't want to drop $300 on a ticket. Based on your "punishment is no deterrant" philosophy, I would assume you were in favor of completely decriminalizing all crimes in which the only punishment is a fine. After all, these fines certainly aren't stopping anyone from committing a crime. Better decriminalize drunk driving, too. 60 days in prison is a negligible amount of time to keep someone off the street, and since the fine and prison time isn't deterring anyone, we may as well just legalize driving while intoxicated.

 

[SputnikBoy]

As for studies and findings. They should always be regarded with healthy scepticism. They can - and often are - slanted to favor those who initiated a particular policy in the first place since they are usually conducted BY those who initiated the policy. 'Positive' results would be a given. These days I've taken to using 'critical thinking' skills for almost everything. And that includes dogmatic Christian beliefs that are based on ambiguous or even non-existent scriptures.

The most prominent of the studies was performed by a group of economists on a strictly research-based basis. They had no agenda, and their methods were pretty sound. I would wager that if I'd said that there were studies showing no deterrance at all, you'd have been very supportive of them. Do you feel that all scientific research is valueless, or just when it disagrees with your own preconceived notions?

There are certain types of crime and criminals that are not much subject to deterrant effects, true. But to say that this is true of every crime and every criminal strikes me as bizarre. Do you have a habit of driving in the carpool lane when you're alone in the car? I sure don't. You know why? Because I don't want to drop $300 on a ticket. Based on your "punishment is no deterrant" philosophy, I would assume you were in favor of completely decriminalizing all crimes in which the only punishment is a fine. After all, these fines certainly aren't stopping anyone from committing a crime. Better decriminalize drunk driving, too. 60 days in prison is a negligible amount of time to keep someone off the street, and since the fine and prison time isn't deterring anyone, we may as well just legalize driving while intoxicated.

Now, now ...don't be silly. ;-) Major crimes and the death penalty are the issue here.

Thanks for the post.

 

[sehad]

I'm not sure what it is elsewhere, but here in Louisiana the death penalty by lethal injection in an OPTION in only 3 different cases.

1. First Degree Murder

2. Treason

3. Rape of a child under the age of 12

and you must be atleast 16 before it is even brought up. There have only been 27 people who have been but to death due to the death penalty since 1976. There have been 8 people that were sentenced to death that were later found innocent(usually several years after the sentence). While the fact that anyone that innocent that is found guilty is horrible, atleast the court system will admit mistakes(which may have been the investigations fault and not the courts) and release the innocent if proven so. This is not something that is just being done, they are making sure that it is right and not misused. SputnikBoy, your stand is that it is a horrible evil. To me it is not if it is used properly. You say that it is murder. I say that it is self-defence. I'm sure that neither of us will change our minds but I do see where you are coming from with your views and hopefully you can see where I'm coming from with mine.