WHO DID CHRIST JESUS DIE FOR?

[atpollard]

We cannot go around saying "God loves you" to everyone we meet that are not saved BECAUSE we can never know who's in the book of life and destined for salvation.

Does God HATE the unsaved?

(I can think of several scriptures that suggest less JOY in God at the prospect of those that He will destroy. The old Arminian adage "God hates sin but loves the sinner" does have SOME scriptural support - at least as much scripture as "God hated Esau").

Truly, people need to know about God's settled opposition to sin [God will not be changing His mind any ETERNITY soon] ... but God did say Luke 13:34 and 1 John 2:2, so I am reluctant to slam shut THAT particular door.

 

[jeremiah1five]

Does God HATE the unsaved?

(I can think of several scriptures that suggest less JOY in God at the prospect of those that He will destroy. The old Arminian adage "God hates sin but loves the sinner" does have SOME scriptural support - at least as much scripture as "God hated Esau").

Truly, people need to know about God's settled opposition to sin [God will not be changing His mind any ETERNITY soon] ... but God did say Luke 13:34 and 1 John 2:2, so I am reluctant to slam shut THAT particular door.

First, Redemptive History shows God's Covenant with a particular group of people. Then the Abrahamic Covenant was family inclusive. Isaac and Jacob and then their various kids born to them.

Nothing changed until Cornelius in Acts 10 and then the addition of Gentiles enmass began in earnest. But through history there were Gentiles already in Covenant like Rahab and that beautiful lady who saved the spies Joshua sent.

BUT as a rule God is following a preordained plan to take out a people for Himself and it all started in Himself in Eternity with a book of life. Everyone named there will be saved and delivered at their appointed TIME.

One more thing, God Promised a Messiah to His book of life people. Genesis 3:15 begins the TIMEly Promise of a Deliverer. Then in Covenant Moses prophesied a Prophet like unto him. AND this "Jewish" Messiah arrived as Promised TO ISRAEL:

31 And I knew him not: but that he should be made manifest to Israel, Jn 1:31.

And Israel's Messiah CAME TO ISRAEL.

But not all Israel KNEW their Messiah and King had arrived. This was the reason Jesus Christ sent His apostles TO THE LOST SHEEP OF THE HOUSE OF ISRAEL in Matthew 10.

AND when Jesus sent His apostles to Jerusalem, Judaea, Samaria, and the uttermost parts of the earth WAS to let His scattered Israelite people KNOW their Messiah had come. AFTER the Temple's destruction this ended the 'ism' of Judaism and now Gentiles were grafted in to the branch/root. But let's not lose sight that Jesus Christ is a "Jew" from the tribe of Judah and He is a "Jewish" Messiah.

Let's not Gentilize Him as the churches do today.

This "Jewish" Messiah has ROOTS in Israelite history. He will, after all, sit on the throne of David.

 

[atpollard]

This "Jewish" Messiah has ROOTS in Israelite history. He will, after all, sit on the throne of David.

Hebrews 5:5-10 [NASB]
5 So too Christ did not glorify Himself in becoming a high priest, but it was He who said to Him, "YOU ARE MY SON, TODAY I HAVE FATHERED YOU"; 6 just as He also says in another passage, "YOU ARE A PRIEST FOREVER ACCORDING TO THE ORDER OF MELCHIZEDEK." 7 In the days of His humanity, He offered up both prayers and pleas with loud crying and tears to the One able to save Him from death, and He was heard because of His devout behavior. 8 Although He was a Son, He learned obedience from the things which He suffered. 9 And having been perfected, He became the source of eternal salvation for all those who obey Him, 10 being designated by God as High Priest according to the order of Melchizedek.

• Abraham was not a Jew, he was the father of those who have FAITH ... Children of the Promise.
• Abraham does not bow to the Levitical Priesthood, but to the Eternal Priesthood of the Order of Melchizedek.

Hebrews 6:13-20 [NASB]
13 For when God made the promise to Abraham, since He could swear an oath by no one greater, He swore by Himself, 14 saying, "INDEED I WILL GREATLY BLESS YOU AND I WILL GREATLY MULTIPLY YOU." 15 And so, having patiently waited, he obtained the promise. 16 For people swear an oath by one greater than themselves, and with them an oath serving as confirmation is an end of every dispute. 17 In the same way God, desiring even more to demonstrate to the heirs of the promise the fact that His purpose is unchangeable, confirmed it with an oath, 18 so that by two unchangeable things in which it is impossible for God to lie, we who have taken refuge would have strong encouragement to hold firmly to the hope set before us. 19 This hope we have as an anchor of the soul, a hope both sure and reliable and one which enters within the veil, 20 where Jesus has entered as a forerunner for us, having become a high priest forever according to the order of Melchizedek.

• God's oath is to the heirs of the promise ... those to whom He will choose to bestow the gift of FAITH and call His Children.
• Israel only ever existing to prove that Men could not (actually WOULD NOT) obey without God's drawing and working in them, and to point us to our SAVIOR. The fulfilled their task and were cut off. Then those that God DREW (including from Israel, which was not excluded from the new promise) were grafted into the TRUE VINE, even as the axe was taken to the old vine was and it was burned in AD 70.

Hebrews 7:1-3 [NASB]
1 For this Melchizedek, king of Salem, priest of the Most High God, who met Abraham as he was returning from the slaughter of the kings and blessed him, 2 to whom also Abraham apportioned a tenth of all the spoils, was first of all, by the translation of his name, king of righteousness, and then also king of Salem, which is king of peace. 3 Without father, without mother, without genealogy, having neither beginning of days nor end of life, but made like the Son of God, he remains a priest perpetually.

• Christ is not a Jewish Priest/King ... that would have called for Levites. Christ was of the Order of Melchizedek (eternal and predating Israel).

Hebrews 7:23-28 [NASB] 23 The former priests, on the one hand, existed in greater numbers because they were prevented by death from continuing; 24 Jesus, on the other hand, because He continues forever, holds His priesthood permanently. 25 Therefore He is also able to save forever those who come to God through Him, since He always lives to make intercession for them. 26 For it was fitting for us to have such a high priest, holy, innocent, undefiled, separated from sinners, and exalted above the heavens; 27 who has no daily need, like those high priests, to offer up sacrifices, first for His own sins and then for the sins of the people, because He did this once for all time when He offered up Himself. 28 For the Law appoints men as high priests who are weak, but the word of the oath, which came after the Law, appoints a Son, who has been made perfect forever.

• FAITH not RACE ... from beginning to end. "So then, it does not depend on the person who wants it nor the one who runs, but on God who has mercy." - Romans 9:16

 

[jeremiah1five]

Hebrews 5:5-10 [NASB]
5 So too Christ did not glorify Himself in becoming a high priest, but it was He who said to Him, "YOU ARE MY SON, TODAY I HAVE FATHERED YOU"; 6 just as He also says in another passage, "YOU ARE A PRIEST FOREVER ACCORDING TO THE ORDER OF MELCHIZEDEK." 7 In the days of His humanity, He offered up both prayers and pleas with loud crying and tears to the One able to save Him from death, and He was heard because of His devout behavior. 8 Although He was a Son, He learned obedience from the things which He suffered. 9 And having been perfected, He became the source of eternal salvation for all those who obey Him, 10 being designated by God as High Priest according to the order of Melchizedek.

• Abraham was not a Jew, he was the father of those who have FAITH ... Children of the Promise.
• Abraham does not bow to the Levitical Priesthood, but to the Eternal Priesthood of the Order of Melchizedek.

Hebrews 6:13-20 [NASB]
13 For when God made the promise to Abraham, since He could swear an oath by no one greater, He swore by Himself, 14 saying, "INDEED I WILL GREATLY BLESS YOU AND I WILL GREATLY MULTIPLY YOU." 15 And so, having patiently waited, he obtained the promise. 16 For people swear an oath by one greater than themselves, and with them an oath serving as confirmation is an end of every dispute. 17 In the same way God, desiring even more to demonstrate to the heirs of the promise the fact that His purpose is unchangeable, confirmed it with an oath, 18 so that by two unchangeable things in which it is impossible for God to lie, we who have taken refuge would have strong encouragement to hold firmly to the hope set before us. 19 This hope we have as an anchor of the soul, a hope both sure and reliable and one which enters within the veil, 20 where Jesus has entered as a forerunner for us, having become a high priest forever according to the order of Melchizedek.

• God's oath is to the heirs of the promise ... those to whom He will choose to bestow the gift of FAITH and call His Children.
• Israel only ever existing to prove that Men could not (actually WOULD NOT) obey without God's drawing and working in them, and to point us to our SAVIOR. The fulfilled their task and were cut off. Then those that God DREW (including from Israel, which was not excluded from the new promise) were grafted into the TRUE VINE, even as the axe was taken to the old vine was and it was burned in AD 70.

Hebrews 7:1-3 [NASB]
1 For this Melchizedek, king of Salem, priest of the Most High God, who met Abraham as he was returning from the slaughter of the kings and blessed him, 2 to whom also Abraham apportioned a tenth of all the spoils, was first of all, by the translation of his name, king of righteousness, and then also king of Salem, which is king of peace. 3 Without father, without mother, without genealogy, having neither beginning of days nor end of life, but made like the Son of God, he remains a priest perpetually.

• Christ is not a Jewish Priest/King ... that would have called for Levites. Christ was of the Order of Melchizedek (eternal and predating Israel).

Hebrews 7:23-28 [NASB] 23 The former priests, on the one hand, existed in greater numbers because they were prevented by death from continuing; 24 Jesus, on the other hand, because He continues forever, holds His priesthood permanently. 25 Therefore He is also able to save forever those who come to God through Him, since He always lives to make intercession for them. 26 For it was fitting for us to have such a high priest, holy, innocent, undefiled, separated from sinners, and exalted above the heavens; 27 who has no daily need, like those high priests, to offer up sacrifices, first for His own sins and then for the sins of the people, because He did this once for all time when He offered up Himself. 28 For the Law appoints men as high priests who are weak, but the word of the oath, which came after the Law, appoints a Son, who has been made perfect forever.

• FAITH not RACE ... from beginning to end. "So then, it does not depend on the person who wants it nor the one who runs, but on God who has mercy." - Romans 9:16

C'mon, atp.
But I'll give you one. He was a Hebrew. Form him came the twelve tribes of Jacob/Israel.
Jesus bar Joseph, the Messiah/Christ hails from the tribe of Judah. This, incidentally, is where the name "Jew" comes from.
You post Scripture at the expense of ignoring other Scripture on the same subject. This is troubling. It shows a non-systematic method of interpreting the Scripture exhaustively to come to the knowledge of the WHOLE truth. This also shows the tendency of people - you included - that seem to use Scripture to support your beliefs instead of using Scripture in whole to tell you what to believe.

Christ has a similar ministry as Melchizedek but Jesus is STILL from the tribe of Judah. This makes Him a son of Jacob/Israel.

He is a "Jewish" Messiah.

16 For verily he took not on him the nature of angels; but he took on him the seed of Abraham. 17 Wherefore in all things it behoved him to be made like unto his brethren, Heb 2:16–17.

14 For it is evident that our Lord sprang out of Juda; Heb 7:14.

 

[PeterJens]

To give you the condensed version of the ministry of the high priest, he does two things:
1. He prays for the people of God, and,
2. Offers sacrifices for the people of God.

The high priest DOES NOT pray for the non-Covenant people nor offer sacrifices for the non-Covenant people. He does nothing for the Gentile people not in Covenant with God. And the same ministry was performed by Christ before He went to the cross. He prayed for the people of God and offered sacrifice [Himself] for the people of God. He did nothing for the non-Covenant unbelievers of the world.

17 These words spake Jesus, and lifted up his eyes to heaven, and said, Father, the hour is come; glorify thy Son, that thy Son also may glorify thee: 2 As thou hast given him power over all flesh, that he should give eternal life to as many as thou hast given him. 3 And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent. Jn. 17.

Martin Luther once called the prayer of Christ in John 17 as 'the holy of holies' prayer. But although Christ offered Himself as sacrifice for those whom the Father gave the Son, Christ did not offer sacrifice nor prayed for the non-Covenant people of the world:

6 I have manifested thy name unto the men which thou gavest me out of the world: thine they were, and thou gavest them me; and they have kept thy word. Jn. 17:6.

9 I pray for them: I pray not for the world, but for them which thou hast given me; for they are thine.
Jn. 17:9.

In other words Christ died for His Church, those whose names are in the book of life and those who are called out of the world (vs. 6)

25 Husbands, love your wives, even as Christ also loved the church, and gave himself for it; 26 That he might sanctify and cleanse it with the washing of water by the word, 27 That he might present it to himself a glorious church, not having spot, or wrinkle, or any such thing; but that it should be holy and without blemish. Eph. 5:25–27.

Jesus Christ caps it all off when He was dying on the cross by saying:

34 Then said Jesus, Father, forgive them; Lk. 23:34.

And to know the identity of "THEM" all you have to do is read through John 17 and take notice of the two groups of people in this chapter: "THEM" and "the world."

The deeper question is what was Jesus's death?
The idea of sacrifice or giving something to pay a debt does not make sense if the value of thing given is different from the thing owed. And a sacrifice or bargain only works for that contract not for things yet to come.
Jesus's death was a promise of the power of love over the lostness of sin and loneliness. Part of sin is driven by pain and hurt, being abandoned so rules or consequences no longer have meaning.

A question could be asked, how difficult was it for the Father to forgive the sin of Israel? The Lord did this when requested. But forgiveness did not resolve the rebellion or continued unfaithfulness. We often emphasise the forgiveness over the demonstration of Gods heart and commitment to walk with us.

So Jesus died for anyone who was prepared to walk through the door and have fellowship and follow Him.
If one holds to a debt which is eternally resolved irrespective of the life of a believer, then the emphasis is on paying the debt, not the communion or walk into eternity. It leads to the absurd idea that believers who fall away and become evil will enter heaven while believers who are not born again will be cast into hell. So what Jesus is intending and why is as important as the act itself.

 

[jeremiah1five]

The deeper question is what was Jesus's death?
The idea of sacrifice or giving something to pay a debt does not make sense if the value of thing given is different from the thing owed. And a sacrifice or bargain only works for that contract not for things yet to come.
Jesus's death was a promise of the power of love over the lostness of sin and loneliness. Part of sin is driven by pain and hurt, being abandoned so rules or consequences no longer have meaning.

A question could be asked, how difficult was it for the Father to forgive the sin of Israel? The Lord did this when requested. But forgiveness did not resolve the rebellion or continued unfaithfulness. We often emphasise the forgiveness over the demonstration of Gods heart and commitment to walk with us.

So Jesus died for anyone who was prepared to walk through the door and have fellowship and follow Him.
If one holds to a debt which is eternally resolved irrespective of the life of a believer, then the emphasis is on paying the debt, not the communion or walk into eternity. It leads to the absurd idea that believers who fall away and become evil will enter heaven while believers who are not born again will be cast into hell. So what Jesus is intending and why is as important as the act itself.

QUOTE: The deeper question is what was Jesus's death?
The idea of sacrifice or giving something to pay a debt does not make sense if the value of thing given is different from the thing owed. And a sacrifice or bargain only works for that contract not for things yet to come.
RESPONSE: That's not necessarily true. God is not dealing with an equality. The 'contract' that was entered by God with the Son and the Holy Spirit only applied to the mortality of man. There was a reason why Abraham was asleep when the 'contract' was made in which He and those of faithful Abraham were beneficiaries of the Eternal, Deific 'contract.' Sin killed the Man Jesus but could not kill the God Christ.

QUOTE: Jesus's death was a promise of the power of love over the lostness of sin and loneliness. Part of sin is driven by pain and hurt, being abandoned so rules or consequences no longer have meaning.
RESPONSE: ALL of sin is driven by death and ALL of death is driven by sin.

QUOTE: A question could be asked, how difficult was it for the Father to forgive the sin of Israel?
RESPONSE: It wasn't difficult at all. It was the Father's plan, the Son implemented the plan, and the Holy Spirit applies the plan to God's elect. It was instant obedience by the Son. No doubts. No second guesses. No delay.

QUOTE: The Lord did this when requested.
RESPONSE: I don't think there was a request involved. The Son knew the Father and the Father knew the Son. It was a communication that I don't think is revealed in Scripture. It's a secret thing of God (Deut. 29:29.)

QUOTE: But forgiveness did not resolve the rebellion or continued unfaithfulness. We often emphasise the forgiveness over the demonstration of Gods heart and commitment to walk with us.
RESPONSE: Of course it resolved the rebellion or continued unfaithfulness. The word is "propitiate." The other word is "atone." And it's not that God walks with us, rather, that we walk with Him.

QUOTE: So Jesus died for anyone who was prepared to walk through the door and have fellowship and follow Him.
RESPONSE: If Jesus died for anyone then Jesus died for no one. The atonement does not take effect on a person who later will merely believe in Him. Jesus' death was effective on the day He died. He actually saved someone that day on Calvary. He dies for those whose names are in the book of life. He dies for His Church (Eph. 5:25), and not for everybody.

QUOTE: If one holds to a debt which is eternally resolved irrespective of the life of a believer, then the emphasis is on paying the debt, not the communion or walk into eternity. It leads to the absurd idea that believers who fall away and become evil will enter heaven while believers who are not born again will be cast into hell. So what Jesus is intending and why is as important as the act itself.
RESPONSE: Identify the "fall away" you mention. What is that?
And what Jesus begins in saving a person through the Holy Spirit He will bring to completion at the end of their lives. He is the Author and Finisher of their faith.

 

[atpollard]

Christ has a similar ministry as Melchizedek but Jesus is STILL from the tribe of Judah. This makes Him a son of Jacob/Israel.

Only on his mother's side (which is a modern definition of "Jewishness" rather than the traditional tracing of paternal lineage as we see in the boring parts of scripture that I don't systematically quote.)

 

[PeterJens]

QUOTE: The deeper question is what was Jesus's death?
The idea of sacrifice or giving something to pay a debt does not make sense if the value of thing given is different from the thing owed. And a sacrifice or bargain only works for that contract not for things yet to come.
RESPONSE: That's not necessarily true. God is not dealing with an equality. The 'contract' that was entered by God with the Son and the Holy Spirit only applied to the mortality of man. There was a reason why Abraham was asleep when the 'contract' was made in which He and those of faithful Abraham were beneficiaries of the Eternal, Deific 'contract.' Sin killed the Man Jesus but could not kill the God Christ.

QUOTE: Jesus's death was a promise of the power of love over the lostness of sin and loneliness. Part of sin is driven by pain and hurt, being abandoned so rules or consequences no longer have meaning.
RESPONSE: ALL of sin is driven by death and ALL of death is driven by sin.

QUOTE: A question could be asked, how difficult was it for the Father to forgive the sin of Israel?
RESPONSE: It wasn't difficult at all. It was the Father's plan, the Son implemented the plan, and the Holy Spirit applies the plan to God's elect. It was instant obedience by the Son. No doubts. No second guesses. No delay.

QUOTE: The Lord did this when requested.
RESPONSE: I don't think there was a request involved. The Son knew the Father and the Father knew the Son. It was a communication that I don't think is revealed in Scripture. It's a secret thing of God (Deut. 29:29.)

QUOTE: But forgiveness did not resolve the rebellion or continued unfaithfulness. We often emphasise the forgiveness over the demonstration of Gods heart and commitment to walk with us.
RESPONSE: Of course it resolved the rebellion or continued unfaithfulness. The word is "propitiate." The other word is "atone." And it's not that God walks with us, rather, that we walk with Him.

QUOTE: So Jesus died for anyone who was prepared to walk through the door and have fellowship and follow Him.
RESPONSE: If Jesus died for anyone then Jesus died for no one. The atonement does not take effect on a person who later will merely believe in Him. Jesus' death was effective on the day He died. He actually saved someone that day on Calvary. He dies for those whose names are in the book of life. He dies for His Church (Eph. 5:25), and not for everybody.

QUOTE: If one holds to a debt which is eternally resolved irrespective of the life of a believer, then the emphasis is on paying the debt, not the communion or walk into eternity. It leads to the absurd idea that believers who fall away and become evil will enter heaven while believers who are not born again will be cast into hell. So what Jesus is intending and why is as important as the act itself.
RESPONSE: Identify the "fall away" you mention. What is that?
And what Jesus begins in saving a person through the Holy Spirit He will bring to completion at the end of their lives. He is the Author and Finisher of their faith.

Sadly you used the words "of course". The NAR churches no longer hold to walking with Jesus, just a belief at some point in their lives buys them a ticket to heaven. Their dilemma is man is so lost, and the work of God is done only at the resurrection all the believer has to do is come to faith. This is extended to mean the believer becomes an eternal spirit which can never be reversed, a kind of gnosticism where the church is full of sinners sinning, where repentance is no longer relevant, only recognition of Jesus. In their world the sermon on the mount is spoken to jews to show them it is impossible to walk with Jesus in love and fellowship, only covered by cross while continuing as one is. Most of the new testament is no longer relevant, and all the warnings in the law are just legalism, and condemning sinful behaviour in church is speaking the enemies words of condemnation. I call this the A4 sheet of paper christianity. It is believed by maybe 50% of believers on forums and possibly in most churches.

Hyper grace gospel was its name. Along with this belief was future sin is also forgiven, for the whole world as well, the only sin which will be judged is belief in Jesus or unbelief. People to my mind who follow this are gnostics and not christians, though they exalt the name of Jesus. The Lord talks about the straight path and walking without sin. This language is also with cleansing, repentance and forgiveness, growing in grace and love, a walk of transformation. To the hyper grace group this is self righteousness and earning ones salvation which they call a satanic delusion.

Why I follow Jesus is because He loves, He is love, He conquered death and gives healing and freedom of the heart in Himself and His people. If this door is fake, and love just an emotion of desperation in front of failure why is the bible full of struggles and overcoming and rising to victory in the Lord?

Sadly I found those in the hyper grace camp called me evil and their enemy. I write this because there are no longer assumptions that can be made. God bless you

 

[atpollard]

Sadly you used the words "of course". The NAR churches no longer hold to walking with Jesus, just a belief at some point in their lives buys them a ticket to heaven. Their dilemma is man is so lost, and the work of God is done only at the resurrection all the believer has to do is come to faith. This is extended to mean the believer becomes an eternal spirit which can never be reversed, a kind of gnosticism where the church is full of sinners sinning, where repentance is no longer relevant, only recognition of Jesus. In their world the sermon on the mount is spoken to jews to show them it is impossible to walk with Jesus in love and fellowship, only covered by cross while continuing as one is. Most of the new testament is no longer relevant, and all the warnings in the law are just legalism, and condemning sinful behaviour in church is speaking the enemies words of condemnation. I call this the A4 sheet of paper christianity. It is believed by maybe 50% of believers on forums and possibly in most churches.

Hyper grace gospel was its name. Along with this belief was future sin is also forgiven, for the whole world as well, the only sin which will be judged is belief in Jesus or unbelief. People to my mind who follow this are gnostics and not christians, though they exalt the name of Jesus. The Lord talks about the straight path and walking without sin. This language is also with cleansing, repentance and forgiveness, growing in grace and love, a walk of transformation. To the hyper grace group this is self righteousness and earning ones salvation which they call a satanic delusion.

Why I follow Jesus is because He loves, He is love, He conquered death and gives healing and freedom of the heart in Himself and His people. If this door is fake, and love just an emotion of desperation in front of failure why is the bible full of struggles and overcoming and rising to victory in the Lord?

Sadly I found those in the hyper grace camp called me evil and their enemy. I write this because there are no longer assumptions that can be made. God bless you

Strawman … I have never encountered a church that taught a “reprobate saints” theology such as you suggest MOST Christians online and perhaps MANY churches believe. Can you produce a statement of faith from a Church that supports what you claim MANY believe?

 

[jeremiah1five]

Sadly you used the words "of course". The NAR churches no longer hold to walking with Jesus, just a belief at some point in their lives buys them a ticket to heaven. Their dilemma is man is so lost, and the work of God is done only at the resurrection all the believer has to do is come to faith. This is extended to mean the believer becomes an eternal spirit which can never be reversed, a kind of gnosticism where the church is full of sinners sinning, where repentance is no longer relevant, only recognition of Jesus. In their world the sermon on the mount is spoken to jews to show them it is impossible to walk with Jesus in love and fellowship, only covered by cross while continuing as one is. Most of the new testament is no longer relevant, and all the warnings in the law are just legalism, and condemning sinful behaviour in church is speaking the enemies words of condemnation. I call this the A4 sheet of paper christianity. It is believed by maybe 50% of believers on forums and possibly in most churches.

Hyper grace gospel was its name. Along with this belief was future sin is also forgiven, for the whole world as well, the only sin which will be judged is belief in Jesus or unbelief. People to my mind who follow this are gnostics and not christians, though they exalt the name of Jesus. The Lord talks about the straight path and walking without sin. This language is also with cleansing, repentance and forgiveness, growing in grace and love, a walk of transformation. To the hyper grace group this is self righteousness and earning ones salvation which they call a satanic delusion.

Why I follow Jesus is because He loves, He is love, He conquered death and gives healing and freedom of the heart in Himself and His people. If this door is fake, and love just an emotion of desperation in front of failure why is the bible full of struggles and overcoming and rising to victory in the Lord?

Sadly I found those in the hyper grace camp called me evil and their enemy. I write this because there are no longer assumptions that can be made. God bless you

QUOTE: Sadly you used the words "of course". The NAR churches no longer hold to walking with Jesus, just a belief at some point in their lives buys them a ticket to heaven. Their dilemma is man is so lost, and the work of God is done only at the resurrection all the believer has to do is come to faith. This is extended to mean the believer becomes an eternal spirit which can never be reversed, a kind of gnosticism where the church is full of sinners sinning, where repentance is no longer relevant, only recognition of Jesus.

This is Mormonism.

QUOTE: In their world the sermon on the mount is spoken to jews to show them it is impossible to walk with Jesus in love and fellowship, only covered by cross while continuing as one is. Most of the new testament is no longer relevant, and all the warnings in the law are just legalism, and condemning sinful behaviour in church is speaking the enemies words of condemnation. I call this the A4 sheet of paper christianity. It is believed by maybe 50% of believers on forums and possibly in most churches.

And he opened his mouth, and taught them, saying, Mt 5:2.

Jesus is teaching His people the Spirit of the Law. He's not teaching obeying the Law is impossible.

for theirs is the kingdom of heaven. Mt 5:3.
for they shall be comforted. Mt 5:4.
for they shall inherit the earth. Mt 5:5.
for they shall be filled. Mt 5:6
for they shall obtain mercy. Mt 5:7.
Etcetera.
He's teaching what they will obtain, not impossibilities.

QUOTE: Hyper grace gospel was its name. Along with this belief was future sin is also forgiven, for the whole world as well, the only sin which will be judged is belief in Jesus or unbelief. People to my mind who follow this are gnostics and not christians, though they exalt the name of Jesus. The Lord talks about the straight path and walking without sin. This language is also with cleansing, repentance and forgiveness, growing in grace and love, a walk of transformation. To the hyper grace group this is self righteousness and earning ones salvation which they call a satanic delusion.

Why I follow Jesus is because He loves, He is love, He conquered death and gives healing and freedom of the heart in Himself and His people. If this door is fake, and love just an emotion of desperation in front of failure why is the bible full of struggles and overcoming and rising to victory in the Lord?

Sadly I found those in the hyper grace camp called me evil and their enemy. I write this because there are no longer assumptions that can be made. God bless you

 

[justbyfaith]

Eph 3:6, That the Gentiles should be fellowheirs, and of the same body, and partakers of his promise in Christ by the gospel:

 

[justbyfaith]

He's not teaching obeying the Law is impossible.

Concerning the letter of the law.

Gal 6:13, For neither they themselves who are circumcised keep the law; but desire to have you circumcised, that they may glory in your flesh.

Rom 2:13, (For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified.

Rom 3:20, Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin.

The first verse in this group speaks for itself.

The 2nd two verses are to be compared to each other.

Of the 2nd two, the first tells us that it is the doers of the law who will be justified.

Nevertheless, the 2nd of the two tells us that no one will be justified through the keeping of the law.

A contradiction?

It can be reconciled with the knowledge that by the law is the knowledge of sin and that, in context, no one is righteous.

If we could keep the law, we would be justified by it; but since we cannot keep it, no one will be justified through law-keeping. For those who obey the law are justified by it. Yet no one is justified through law-keeping. Which indicates that there is no one who truly keeps the law.

 

[justbyfaith]

Concerning the spirit of the law.

Rom 7:6, But now we are delivered from the law, that being dead wherein we were held; that we should serve in newness of spirit, and not in the oldness of the letter.

Rom 8:4, That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

 

[jeremiah1five]

Concerning the letter of the law.

Gal 6:13, For neither they themselves who are circumcised keep the law; but desire to have you circumcised, that they may glory in your flesh.

Rom 2:13, (For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified.

Rom 3:20, Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin.

The first verse in this group speaks for itself.

The 2nd two verses are to be compared to each other.

Of the 2nd two, the first tells us that it is the doers of the law who will be justified.

Nevertheless, the 2nd of the two tells us that no one will be justified through the keeping of the law.

A contradiction?

It can be reconciled with the knowledge that by the law is the knowledge of sin and that, in context, no one is righteous.

If we could keep the law, we would be justified by it; but since we cannot keep it, no one will be justified through law-keeping. For those who obey the law are justified by it. Yet no one is justified through law-keeping. Which indicates that there is no one who truly keeps the law.

When God looks at His Elect, He sees them through the finished work of Christ who fulfilled the Law. Thus, He sees us as fulfilling the Law as well. There's our justification: "Not Guilty."

 

[justbyfaith]

When God looks at His Elect, He sees them through the finished work of Christ who fulfilled the Law. Thus, He sees us as fulfilling the Law as well. There's our justification: "Not Guilty."

Not because we don't violate the law...

Because we are not under it (Romans 6:14), are dead to it (Romans 7:4, Galatians 2:19), and are delivered from it (Romans 7:6).

So, it does not apply to us in condemnation...it does not identify us as sinners, even though we may actually sin by violating one of its precepts.

Because our relationship to the law has changed, we are not sinning when we violate the law, in the sight of the Father (for He sees the blood and righteousness of His Son when He looks at us); while in the sight of the Holy Ghost our sin is very evident (because it is His job to pinpoint our sins so that we can confess them and be sanctified according to 1 John 1:9).

So, the Holy Spirit, in sanctifying us, brings the law to bear on our behaviour; while in the sight of the Father, we are forgiven.

From the Holy Spirit's perspective, therefore, we are under the law to Christ (1 Corinthians 9:21).

 

[jeremiah1five]

Not because we don't violate the law...

Because we are not under it (Romans 6:14), are dead to it (Romans 7:4, Galatians 2:19), and are delivered from it (Romans 7:6).

So, it does not apply to us in condemnation...it does not identify us as sinners, even though we may actually sin by violating one of its precepts.

Because our relationship to the law has changed, we are not sinning when we violate the law, in the sight of the Father (for He sees the blood and righteousness of His Son when He looks at us); while in the sight of the Holy Ghost our sin is very evident (because it is His job to pinpoint our sins so that we can confess them and be sanctified according to 1 John 1:9).

So, the Holy Spirit, in sanctifying us, brings the law to bear on our behaviour; while in the sight of the Father, we are forgiven.

From the Holy Spirit's perspective, therefore, we are under the law to Christ (1 Corinthians 9:21).

QUOTE: Because we are not under it (Romans 6:14), are dead to it (Romans 7:4, Galatians 2:19), and are delivered from it (Romans 7:6).
RESPONSE: The subject matter Paul is addressing is SIN. We are not under the Sacrificial Law which dealt with sin.

If you really believe we are no longer under the Law I suppose you don't have to have no other gods before you and don't have to worry about taking the Lord's Name in vain.

The Law of Christ IS the Law of Moses.

The Law of Christ which is the Law of the Spirit is who Authored the Law.

Spirit of the Law and letter of the Law.

 

[justbyfaith]

QUOTE: Because we are not under it (Romans 6:14), are dead to it (Romans 7:4, Galatians 2:19), and are delivered from it (Romans 7:6).
RESPONSE: The subject matter Paul is addressing is SIN. We are not under the Sacrificial Law which dealt with sin.

If you really believe we are no longer under the Law I suppose you don't have to have no other gods before you and don't have to worry about taking the Lord's Name in vain.

The Law of Christ IS the Law of Moses.

The Law of Christ which is the Law of the Spirit is who Authored the Law.

Spirit of the Law and letter of the Law.

I agree with you to a certain extent.

I would say that our Modus Operandi is no longer to attempt to obey a set of do's and don'ts, as in crossing our t's and dotting our i's.

Instead, it has to do with our faith in Jesus Christ.

We have received the Spirit through faith (Galatians 3:14);

And the love of the Lord is shed abroad in our hearts through the Holy Ghost (Romans 5:5).

This love is the fulfilling of the (spirit of the) law (Romans 13:8-10, 1 John 5:3, 2 John 1:6);

And it is not impractical (1 John 3:17-18).

That we are not under the law (Romans 6:14), are dead to the law (Romans 7:4, Galatians 2:19), and are delivered from the law (Romans 7:6) simply means that there is no more condemnation if we should fail to keep the law; not that we will not be obedient to it.

Love motivates us to obey the law; really, the fact that we have His love in our hearts (Romans 5:5) works itself out in the fact that we don't violate the commandments that we find written in Romans 13:8-10.

It is not that we are looking to a set of do's and don'ts and attempting to obey them in the crossing of our t's and the dotting of our i's...

It is that we simply love God and neighbor and the keeping of the commandments falls into place.

And why do we love God and neighbor? Is it not because we believe in Jesus (Galatians 3:14, Romans 5:5)?

 

[jeremiah1five]

I agree with you to a certain extent.

I would say that our Modus Operandi is no longer to attempt to obey a set of do's and don'ts, as in crossing our t's and dotting our i's.

Instead, it has to do with our faith in Jesus Christ.

We have received the Spirit through faith (Galatians 3:14);

And the love of the Lord is shed abroad in our hearts through the Holy Ghost (Romans 5:5).

This love is the fulfilling of the (spirit of the) law (Romans 13:8-10, 1 John 5:3, 2 John 1:6);

And it is not impractical (1 John 3:17-18).

That we are not under the law (Romans 6:14), are dead to the law (Romans 7:4, Galatians 2:19), and are delivered from the law (Romans 7:6) simply means that there is no more condemnation if we should fail to keep the law; not that we will not be obedient to it.

Love motivates us to obey the law; really, the fact that we have His love in our hearts (Romans 5:5) works itself out in the fact that we don't violate the commandments that we find written in Romans 13:8-10.

It is not that we are looking to a set of do's and don'ts and attempting to obey them in the crossing of our t's and the dotting of our i's...

It is that we simply love God and neighbor and the keeping of the commandments falls into place.

And why do we love God and neighbor? Is it not because we believe in Jesus (Galatians 3:14, Romans 5:5)?

QUOTE: "...simply means that there is no more condemnation if we should fail to keep the law; not that we will not be obedient to it."
RESPONSE: Failing to keep the Law IS THE SAME AS not being obedient to it. You said two opposites in the same breath of statements. Be aware.

Tell me, "Who is my neighbor?"

I'll take the Biblical explanation.

 

[justbyfaith]

QUOTE: "...simply means that there is no more condemnation if we should fail to keep the law; not that we will not be obedient to it."
RESPONSE: Failing to keep the Law IS THE SAME AS not being obedient to it. You said two opposites in the same breath of statements. Be aware.

What I was trying to say is that if we fail to keep the law, there is no condemnation if you are in Christ.

But if you are in Christ, His Holy Spirit within you motivates you to be obedient to the law (Romans 8:7).

The motivation for obeying the law, for the believer, is not condemnation if we should fail to keep it.

Our motivation is the love of the Lord shed abroad in our heart.

Now Jesus said, that the spirit is willing, but the flesh is weak.

So, in the case that we fail to keep the law for that our flesh is weak,

the reality is that there is no condemnation for those who have been justified by His blood.

I would also say that no one truly keeps the law perfectly. I don't know of any Christian today who wears tzitzit and tallit and who blows the chofar every new moon.

I find myself unable to keep those commandments. I don't even have tzitzit and tallit; and neither do I even have a chofar.

But these are required by the law.

It is also written,

Gal 3:10, For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse: for it is written, Cursed is every one that continueth not in all things which are written in the book of the law to do them.

Jas 2:10, For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all.

Mat 5:48, Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.

For those who are in Christ, the curse of the law is nullified; for Christ became a curse for us when He died on the "tree".

We are forgiven of past, present, and future sin through His shed blood on the Cross of Calvary.

Our only part in this is to place our faith in Him and His finished work, stated above.

 

[PeterJens]

Strawman … I have never encountered a church that taught a “reprobate saints” theology such as you suggest MOST Christians online and perhaps MANY churches believe. Can you produce a statement of faith from a Church that supports what you claim MANY believe?

I am not sharing to prove something but to warn what I discovered. I debated people from this group for 2 years and was surprised at the results. If you want to know more, google hyper grace.

I spent a long time discussing with one believer who felt I was a self righteous holiness follower who was just an imposter who need to accept we just acknowledge Jesus, and righteousness is just a conviction of our failure. To justify their position they redefined the meaning of scriptural words.

A gnostic view of salvation fits addicts or people who refuse or believe behaviour cannot be changed. It may strike you as odd but Kenneth Copland, and the NAR support this position, which is why moral failure in leaders is no longer a problem for this "christian" movement. Some might argue this is the ultimate position of a strong calvanist position and predestination over free will.

Each believer has to find their way through. The layers of the heart and motivation often show whether Jesus has been born in them, or it is a life philisophical resolution. One church leader felt "love" was the old afternoon tea witnessing but now we have spiritual gifts and miracles, the power of heaven come to earth. The felt the heart was desperately wicked and best left alone.