Who do you think has control of our weather?

[Deborah13]

really,? god has to save man? he worries if man will obey him? uhm no to both. he is not obligated to save you nor me. he choose to. we are his. he choose us. we don't say yes to him of our own free will. whom made you love hiM?
john says we love him because HE loved us first! if god didn't first choose us. we would NEVER, ever love god. finally. god says I give you the will to both to good and to be able to do it. its all from him. we merely say yes to that, but even that yes at first came from the first time we were touched by him.

I have a Calvinistic leaning.i do believe in the idea of some form of tulip. total depravity, unmerited grace, limited atonement, irrestable grace and perserverance of the saints.

where I mainly differ on that is the last and the idea of we have no will or limited will, but we must first have been touched by god to make the choice of now. if he didn't choose us, we wont choose him. god may call us but not all of us will say yes. some will reject him, when that happens all those curses are sign to those that did repent of how blessed we are that we wont be in hell. that is what I meant by evil is used for his glory.

satan is allowed by god to do what he did. god set that up. did god create the tree of knowledge? or did satan? the answer is god.

Jason the theology of tulip, says that you did not have a choice in being saved. tulip says that not all men are chosen to be saved and they don't have any choice but to be the sinners that they are because God never chose them.

 

[Deborah13]

Did he cause it to happen or did he allow it to happen?

Jer 19:3 And say, Hear ye the word of the LORD, O kings of Judah, and inhabitants of Jerusalem; Thus saith the LORD of hosts, the God of Israel; Behold, I will bring evil upon this place, the which whosoever heareth, his ears shall tingle.
Jer 19:4 Because they have forsaken me, and have estranged this place, and have burned incense in it unto other gods, whom neither they nor their fathers have known, nor the kings of Judah, and have filled this place with the blood of innocents;
Jer 19:5 They have built also the high places of Baal, to burn their sons with fire for burnt offerings unto Baal, which I commanded not, nor spake it, neither came it into my mind:
Jer 19:6 Therefore, behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that this place shall no more be called Tophet, nor The valley of the son of Hinnom, but The valley of slaughter.

 

[Kathi]

Jason the theology of tulip, says that you did not have a choice in being saved. tulip says that not all men are chosen to be saved and they don't have any choice but to be the sinners that they are because God never chose them.

So you believe that God choses certain people before they are born and only those will be saved?God knows who is going to come to him before they are born.

 

[Deborah13]

So you believe that God choses certain people before they are born and only those will be saved?God knows who is going to come to him before they are born.

I believe that God has all knowledge. He doesn't have to look into the future He just knows.
He knows who will and who won't come to Him. And because He knows He has predestined those people to be justified and sanctified in Christ.
I believe that no one can come to God without being drawn by the Father or Jesus, but just because they are drawn does not mean they will come. This scripture tells me this.
Mat 23:37 O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not!

Jesus was so grieved by this that He wept over this city and this people. I believe He is deeply grieved when anyone will not accept His grace, mercy, and love that He has for them.

 

[jasoncran]

I don't think you are seeing the same thing here;
By saying God "allows" evil I think what you hopefully mean to say is that God has allowed for the possibility of evil to exist so that free will and therefore LOVE can exist. A lot of people say God allows evil and they equate that to mean that God is standing back and authorizing evil to be done by someone, which of course is not true.
So, unless you say otherwise, I will take you saying that God allows evil to mean literally "God HAS allowed free will, and therefore some people choose to do evil."

yes,

 

[TheCurseoftheRodain]

Jer 19:3 And say, Hear ye the word of the LORD, O kings of Judah, and inhabitants of Jerusalem; Thus saith the LORD of hosts, the God of Israel; Behold, I will bring evil upon this place, the which whosoever heareth, his ears shall tingle.
Jer 19:4 Because they have forsaken me, and have estranged this place, and have burned incense in it unto other gods, whom neither they nor their fathers have known, nor the kings of Judah, and have filled this place with the blood of innocents;
Jer 19:5 They have built also the high places of Baal, to burn their sons with fire for burnt offerings unto Baal, which I commanded not, nor spake it, neither came it into my mind:
Jer 19:6 Therefore, behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that this place shall no more be called Tophet, nor The valley of the son of Hinnom, but The valley of slaughter.

Hey Deborah, I would look into the original Hebrew on those places where God is getting the credit for evil.
For example, in Genesis 3, the original Hebrew does not say that God cursed the Earth as He is given credit for in the KJV and most modern translations; He actually just announces to Adam and Eve that now because of what they have done there IS a curse on the Earth. However, due to unbelief in translations, God has mistakenly received credit for evil.
So, before going further on those things I would find out what the original Hebrew is in those instances. Might make a huge difference in what's actually been written.

 

[TheCurseoftheRodain]

Another good one is where people like to point out God being to blame for the snakes that came in killed His people, but when you read the actual original Hebrew in that chapter of Exodus, it says that God lifted His hand of protection at the people's request and then the snakes, which had been following them all along, were able to come in and start killing them. But the KJV says it was God that did it, again another example of unbelief in the translation, when in reality, God did not send the snakes at all.

 

[TheCurseoftheRodain]

So you believe that God choses certain people before they are born and only those will be saved?God knows who is going to come to him before they are born.

Obviously God the Father knows, but just as Jesus was able to have all His divine knowledge stripped from Himself so that He did not know when He was coming back, God is obviously able to do the same thing, so that just because He knows, doesn't mean He is making anyone choose anything.
I could know who is going to win a Connect 4 game between me and my son, and he won't know, but we still play it out, and my knowing had nothing to do with the outcome of the game.

 

[Deborah13]

Another good one is where people like to point out God being to blame for the snakes that came in killed His people, but when you read the actual original Hebrew in that chapter of Exodus, it says that God lifted His hand of protection at the people's request and then the snakes, which had been following them all along, were able to come in and start killing them. But the KJV says it was God that did it, again another example of unbelief in the translation, when in reality, God did not send the snakes at all.

That's some what like Job. God removed the protective hedge He had around Job.

 

[Kathi]

W

Another good one is where people like to point out God being to blame for the snakes that came in killed His people, but when you read the actual original Hebrew in that chapter of Exodus, it says that God lifted His hand of protection at the people's request and then the snakes, which had been following them all along, were able to come in and start killing them. But the KJV says it was God that did it, again another example of unbelief in the translation, when in reality, God did not send the snakes at all.

Then who sent the snakes?

 

[TheCurseoftheRodain]

W

Then who sent the snakes?

Well the Bible says that Satan is the god of this evil world, so I'd say him, as much as people don't like to ascribe everything bad to him, he really is the source of everything bad. Don't forget that Satan pursues the destruction of every one of God's people far more than the gentiles. We don't say this to be afraid of him, because he's nothing compared to Who is inside of us, but we must be aware of the source of the problems.
Imagine if someone came to you and said, I have cancer, and your answer was to put a Band-Aid on it...they'll die no matter how nice that Band-Aid was and no matter how sincerely you believed the Band-Aid would cure them. Why? Because you didn't destroy the root of the problem. So how can the fruit go away when you don't destroy the root? Lack, poverty, defeat, sickness, disease, etc are all rooted in the Devil, so when you resist those things in faith and speak the Word against them and bind the Devil over it and release God's angels to work in the situation, you get results, because the root is removed.
Ever notice that in Eden, no Devil, no problems, in Heaven, no Devil, no problems?

 

[TheCurseoftheRodain]

That's some what like Job. God removed the protective hedge He had around Job.

In that case, it wasn't so much that God removed it actually, it's that Job himself let it down with fear and blocked God from being able to do anything about it. Fear is like setting an appointment with the Devil for him to bring upon you whatever you fear. Just like faith does the same thing with God. So Job, through his fear, let down that blessing wall/hedge that Satan complained about to God; He didn't realize it was down or with cracks or whatever it was that wrong with it now through the fear, and when asked, God had to tell the truth since He cannot lie.
But it is refreshing to hear someone not blame God for Job's junk

 

[Edward]

God had confidence in Job. Remember how He spoke to Satan about Job? Very highly. He was proud of Job even before Jobs trial began. So He allowed Job to go into the firey furnace, so to speak. All of the Lord's tasks He has for us are not easy, but...whichever door the Lord leads us to and lets us walk through, he will be with us through it. We can have more confidence in the Lord than He can have in us. (of course.) The greater the trial, the greater the Glory to God when it is overcome. We may get frustrated, but we can not forget this. Try not to murmur against the Lord. This grieves the Lord. Remember the Israelites in the desert after they fled Egypt?

David walking onto the field against Goliath must have been scared. Who wouldn't be? But he held his trust in the Lord and what a glorious victory it was! We have nothing to fear. Our Lord never loses. All things work together for good and to the glory of God. Job was handsomely rewarded for his trial and faithfulness to our Lord. Nothing is changed in todays world. I have small trials compared to some of the men of old. The Lord has never let me down and never will.

This was illustrated to me one day. I had a time sensitive need. I had a doctor appointment at 2 and not a dime towards the doctors fee or my prescription. Only a water heater install would allow me enough time and money to make it. I prayed for it at 6 AM and had faith that I would get it. It got to the point that I did not have enough time to get the job, prepare, do it, and go home and clean up in time to go. I noticed the clock. I put it out of my mind and trusted that the Lord would make it work somehow. 10 minutes later the phone rang with the question, can I install a water heater for them today. I said yes, but knew I didn't have enough time to do it. I trusted the Lord without a thought. Then the customer turned down my quote when I got there. :erm

He wanted to save money and get his own water heater, and asked if he could pay me now for the Labor and ancillary materials, and he would go get the WH and I could come back in the afternoon and install it. Perfect. I had the money and in time to make my appointment with the doc. The Lord will provide a way if we keep our faith, which I did. Praise the Lord.

The Lord wanted to see if my faith would endure. I learned that it is wise to trust the Lord, because He will not fail us.

Praise the Lord. Keep the faith.

 

[Deborah13]

W

Then who sent the snakes?

They were there all the time just like we have dangers around us every day.
How many times have we been protected from something we didn't even realize was there?
How many times has someone thought to do harm to us and the Lord protects us?

 

[Deborah13]

In that case, it wasn't so much that God removed it actually, it's that Job himself let it down with fear and blocked God from being able to do anything about it. Fear is like setting an appointment with the Devil for him to bring upon you whatever you fear. Just like faith does the same thing with God. So Job, through his fear, let down that blessing wall/hedge that Satan complained about to God; He didn't realize it was down or with cracks or whatever it was that wrong with it now through the fear, and when asked, God had to tell the truth since He cannot lie.
But it is refreshing to hear someone not blame God for Job's junk

Yes Job did fear, no doubt. But I don't believe that was the underlying real problem. Job thought that what he did and didn't do was the reason he was blessed and protected. To a point that is true but can one's doings save them? God told him that his own right hand could not save him. It was only God's grace and mercy that would save him. This is God speaking to Job.
Job 40:14 Then will I also confess unto thee that thine own right hand can save thee.
Works vs Grace

 

[jasoncran]

Jason the theology of tulip, says that you did not have a choice in being saved. tulip says that not all men are chosen to be saved and they don't have any choice but to be the sinners that they are because God never chose them.

I use tulip as a reference. I don't buy eternal security. I do believe in a choice to reject. read my post again.

 

[jasoncran]

Well the Bible says that Satan is the god of this evil world, so I'd say him, as much as people don't like to ascribe everything bad to him, he really is the source of everything bad. Don't forget that Satan pursues the destruction of every one of God's people far more than the gentiles. We don't say this to be afraid of him, because he's nothing compared to Who is inside of us, but we must be aware of the source of the problems.
Imagine if someone came to you and said, I have cancer, and your answer was to put a Band-Aid on it...they'll die no matter how nice that Band-Aid was and no matter how sincerely you believed the Band-Aid would cure them. Why? Because you didn't destroy the root of the problem. So how can the fruit go away when you don't destroy the root? Lack, poverty, defeat, sickness, disease, etc are all rooted in the Devil, so when you resist those things in faith and speak the Word against them and bind the Devil over it and release God's angels to work in the situation, you get results, because the root is removed.
Ever notice that in Eden, no Devil, no problems, in Heaven, no Devil, no problems?

so man isn't part of the problem? we don't choose to sin? we don't have acts that can cause diseases? hmm sex being one of them. satan can merely tempted us, he knows how to control us. we don't have the power to resist but we have the option to call on jesus. when we don't. we are held to that sin. we choose in it. otherwise. the devil made ... is an excuse.

 

[TheCurseoftheRodain]

It's up to you if you want to accept and receive the fact that the reason Jesus was made manifest was "to destroy the works of the Devil." (1 John 3:8). Everything He did falls under that category. Did Jesus receive all sickness and disease at the cross and heal us with His stripes? Yes, according to Isaiah 53:4-5. So God equates sickness and disease with Satan as its root. It is the same with poverty, defeat, etc. So EVERYTHING wrong you see has Satan as its root. The Scriptures are quite clear about that.

So does Satan MAKE anyone do things to bring about harm on oneself in some way? No, he cannot. If he could, we'd all have been wiped out at the Garden of Eden. He doesn't have the power to do anything to us directly - he has to get us to do it with our words spoken in fear, or keep us from walking in the Kingdom of God some way, through guilt, shame, condemnation, etc, or convince us we should act a certain way or do a certain thing under great pressure. He only makes suggestions, presents you thoughts in the first person so that they appear to be your own thoughts, it is similar to the way that God can speak to you internally.
Essentially, think about it, and I believe CS Lewis pointed this out: the greatest victory the Devil has ever had is in his success to get people to believe he either doesn't exist or isn't responsible for much if anything. Because, if you don't believe he is the source of the problem, then you won't be able to stop him because you won't resist or fight the good fight of faith. And this is where most Christians live in defeat, because they think they themselves are the problem, or they've bought the lie that that's just the way it is, or God doesn't care about this or that, or if it didn't happen instantly it must not have happened, etc. Satan succeeds in convincing Believers he is not the problem, they are. When in reality, Scripturally, the Devil IS the problem, as we see from 1 John 3:8, because everything Jesus redeemed us from falls under that verse.

 

[TheCurseoftheRodain]

Yes Job did fear, no doubt. But I don't believe that was the underlying real problem. Job thought that what he did and didn't do was the reason he was blessed and protected. To a point that is true but can one's doings save them? God told him that his own right hand could not save him. It was only God's grace and mercy that would save him. This is God speaking to Job.
Job 40:14 Then will I also confess unto thee that thine own right hand can save thee.
Works vs Grace

Well look at what Satan complained about with God, that Blessing wall/hedge that he thought he couldn't get past, but Job had let it down with fear in all his offerings offered in fear over his children. Then later he laments that the thing he greatly feared has come upon him, and Proverbs says many times the same thing. Job and his wife also, let the Devil through with their fear and her cursing God (you could see that she'd already done it by her suggesting Job should do it). So the fear was the product of his heart belief of what you are saying; it was the fruit of the root of unbelief; God was not his source in his heart anymore, otherwise he would have trusted God with his children.

 

[Sailingflutist-SF]

I don't think you are seeing the same thing here;
By saying God "allows" evil I think what you hopefully mean to say is that God has allowed for the possibility of evil to exist so that free will and therefore LOVE can exist. A lot of people say God allows evil and they equate that to mean that God is standing back and authorizing evil to be done by someone, which of course is not true.
So, unless you say otherwise, I will take you saying that God allows evil to mean literally "God HAS allowed free will, and therefore some people choose to do evil."

God allowed satan, the personification of evil and his ONLY choice of free will is doing evil, to torment righteous Job. I just can't see your reasoning. God knew satan was going to do evil to Job when He handed Job over to him that is why God told him, "but on the man himself, do not lay a finger."