Who Does the Work?

[JLB]

The Apostle Paul said that the good that he had did deceived him (Rom. 7:11).

The Apostle Paul certainly didn’t say “the good that he did deceived him”.

Here is what Romans 7:11 says.


For sin, taking occasion by the commandment, deceived me, and by it killed me. Romans 7:11


Sin deceived him, not “doing good”.


Please stop adding to God’s word, which twists and changes the meaning.



Here is who will receive eternal life.


eternal life to those who by patient continuance in doing good seek for glory, honor, and immortality;
Romans 2:7


JLB

 

[JLB]

Grace is the ROOT of salvation and Works are the FRUIT of salvation.

Is faith involved?

If faith is involved in salvation, then the work of obedience is involved in salvation.

Obedience is the principle by which faith works, or operates, to produce the intended divine result.


Obedience to repent, and confess with our mouth, Jesus as Lord, is how grace
JLB is able to manifest the reality of salvation by faith.

Faith must have the work of obedience or its incomplete, and dormant.


JLB

 

[Boaz]

Try replacing the word "faith" with the word "trust".

Now try the James passage again...

Trust in God without works (like obedience, giving nature, loving fellow man, and good deeds) is dead....

Kinda has a bit more punch eh?

Which is why I claim that many groups of people who claim Christ but refuse to give up particular sins aren't Christian whatsoever.

There is a good argument that can be made that using the grace that covers our sins as a license to sin is the mark of the beast.

So...yeah....just because you think that the train won't hit you because trains have brakes so you refuse to get off the train tracks...let's see if that really works out.

People either exhibit gratitude to God or not. Where I can't speak for God...I know how I'd feel about the situation.

If we have the Holy Spirit dwelling within s, which ALL genuine Christians do, He will PRODUCE good fruit, the fruit if the Spirit, love, joy, peace, patience, kindness ,goodness, faithfulness, gentleness. Galations 5:22,23
We can not always, all the time be perfect in these things. But when we slip, we are convicted and repent, which an unsaved person will not. They may at times e sorry for something the did but it carries no weight of having done something atrocious before God.
The fruit of the flesh is also listed in this same chapter. Walking in the flesh being living according to our old nature, as though we are still the slave of sin. Walking in the Spirit is living according o our new nature (submitting rto God's ways) as a people who have been redeemed from that slavery.
All genuine Christians walk in the Spirit because He is in US. Not perfectly because we are still fallen and live in a fallen world. But we know right from wrong and our spirit wants to what is right.
So, no fruit (that doesn't mean ALL of the fruit, we are a work in progress) but zero fruit means no Spirit within, means no salvation, at least not yet. No true Christian would ever say OSAS so they can sin as they please.

 

[iLOVE]

Please stop adding to God’s word, which twists and changes the meaning.

Romans 7:11
“11 For sin (the sin nature), taking occasion by the Commandment (in no way blames the Commandment, but that the Commandment actually did agitate the sin nature, and brought it to the fore, which it was designed to do), deceived me (Paul thought, now that he had accepted Christ, by that mere fact alone he could certainly obey the Lord in every respect; but he found he couldn’t, and neither can you, at least in that fashion), and by it slew me (despite all of his efforts to live for the Lord by means of Law-keeping, he failed; and again, I say, so will you!).”

JSM

If your faith continues to be in Christ and obedience you will only read the scriptures in the letter that kills, because of misplace faith. Place and maintain your Faith exclusively in Christ and the Cross of Calvary where the victory was won, I.e., the Blood of Jesus, so that the scriptures will be seen and understood in the Spirit that brings life!

 

[iLOVE]

Do you believe if we obey Jesus Christ our Lord, then we are practicing man’s religion ?


JLB

There is only one way in which things go well with the people of God, and that is through a life of obedience, which God sees and honors if it is the obedience of Christ, which He sees in our hearts through our faith in His obedience to the death of the cross (Romans 6:17).

The Believer is required to obey the Word of the Lord. He cannot do that within his own strength, but only by understanding that he receives all things through what Christ did at the Cross and his continued Faith in that Finished Work, even on a daily basis. Then the Holy Spirit, Who Alone can make us what we ought to be, can accomplish His work within our lives. If it is done any other way:

Romans 7:11
“11 For sin (the sin nature), taking occasion by the Commandment (in no way blames the Commandment, but that the Commandment actually did agitate the sin nature, and brought it to the fore, which it was designed to do), deceived me (Paul thought, now that he had accepted Christ, by that mere fact alone he could certainly obey the Lord in every respect; but he found he couldn’t, and neither can you, at least in that fashion), and by it slew me (despite all of his efforts to live for the Lord by means of Law-keeping, he failed; and again, I say, so will you!).”

As I stated before, the good that Paul thought he was doing deceived him (Romans 7:11). It must always be Christ Crucified (1 Cor. 2:2). Paul said you will be judged by his Gospel (Romans 2:16)…Christ Crucified ONLY!!!!!!! 1 Cor. 1:23

JSM

 

[GodsGrace]

Try replacing the word "faith" with the word "trust".

Now try the James passage again...

Trust in God without works (like obedience, giving nature, loving fellow man, and good deeds) is dead....

Kinda has a bit more punch eh?

Which is why I claim that many groups of people who claim Christ but refuse to give up particular sins aren't Christian whatsoever.

There is a good argument that can be made that using the grace that covers our sins as a license to sin is the mark of the beast.

So...yeah....just because you think that the train won't hit you because trains have brakes so you refuse to get off the train tracks...let's see if that really works out.

People either exhibit gratitude to God or not. Where I can't speak for God...I know how I'd feel about the situation.

OK. I agree with the above...so we seem to agree.

As to trust and faith...James said faith...what's the difference??

Definition of faith
(Entry 1 of 2)
1a: allegiance to duty or a person
b(1): fidelity to one's promises

(2): sincerity of intentions acted in good faith
2a(1): belief and trust in and loyalty to God
(2): belief in the traditional doctrines of a religion
b(1): firm belief in something for which there is no proof


Definition of trust
(Entry 1 of 2)
1a: assured reliance on the character, ability, strength, or truth of someone or something
b: one in which confidence is placed

a: CARE, CUSTODY
b(1): a charge or duty imposed in faith or confidence or as a condition of some relationship


If I have faith in someone, I also trust them.
If I trust someone, I also have faith in them.

I don't really see how changing this word affects James statement that faith without works is dead.

But it doesn't matter...I agree with all you've said.

 

[GodsGrace]

Yes there is plenty of false doctrine floating around, being peddled by people who have no business trying to teach until they have studied to show themselves approved.

Most are just regurgitating the teachings of man.



JLB

And different "men", churches, etc. are teaching different doctrine.
So, yes, some go with the one that sounds the easiest...not necessarily the one that most matches with scripture.

 

[GodsGrace]

This seems to be the root of much of the false teachings going around, where it’s always someone else’s fault that we sin

“God made me this way” is very popular.

Or

“We were chosen for salvation and there’s nothing we can do to lose it”.



JLB

Perseverance of the Saints.


The belief is that if God CHOSE the person...the MUST persevere till the end by God's means alone --- and thus P of the S.

The Early Fathers did NOT believe in P of the S.
I tend to trust them more than some others that came much later on.

 

[atpollard]

Faith must have the work of obedience or its incomplete, and dormant.

James described workless faith as “dead”. (James 2)
Paul says that all of it (grace, faith and salvation) are the “gift of God”. (Ephesians 2)

 

[atpollard]

The Early Fathers did NOT believe in P of the S.
I tend to trust them more than some others that came much later on.

Any thoughts on why the ECF didn’t believe the Apostle Paul when he wrote that those God foreknew, God predestined and God called and God justified and God glorified (past tense in English, but a tense indicating a settled matter of fact in the Greek) [Romans 8] ... or when he wrote that we are sealed with the Holy Spirit as a guarantee of our inheritance (the redemption of God’s own possession) [Ephesians 1]?

I believe the Apostles rather than the opinions of the ECF.

 

[JLB]

If your faith continues to be in Christ and obedience you will only read the scriptures in the letter that kills, because of misplace faith.

Makes no sense.


Our obedience to Christ Jesus and his Gospel is how we are saved initially, and how we remain saved, and how we will receive the salvation of our soul on the Day of Judgement.


Initial Salvation through obedience -


Since you have purified your souls in obeying the truth through the Spirit in sincere love of the brethren, love one another fervently with a pure heart, having been born again, not of corruptible seed but incorruptible, through the word of God which lives and abides forever, 1 Peter 1:22-23

• you have purified your souls in obeying the truth through the Spirit

In this scripture we see how we are born again, by obeying the Gospel truth through the Spirit.

The grace of God being present to energize and help us to obey, being the power of God unto salvation.



Continuing to obey the truth unto eternal life: A life led by the Spirit -


God who “will render to each one according to his deeds”: eternal life to those who by patient continuance in doing good seek for glory, honor, and immortality; but to those who are self-seeking and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness—indignation and wrath, Romans 2:6-8

• eternal life to those who by patient continuance in doing good seek for glory, honor, and immortality;

• but to those who are self-seeking and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness—indignation and wrath,

Those who do not continue to obey the truth, will suffer eternal indignation and wrath in the lake of fire.


Only those who live according to the Spirit in obedience to the truth will inherit the kingdom of God.



Then the King will say to those on His right hand, ‘Come, you blessed of My Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world: for I was hungry and you gave Me food; I was thirsty and you gave Me drink; I was a stranger and you took Me in; I was naked and you clothed Me; I was sick and you visited Me; I was in prison and you came to Me.’
Matthew 25:34-36


Then the King will say to those on His right hand, ‘Come, you blessed of My Father, inherit the kingdom


The Lord Jesus Christ gives the reason why these will inherit the kingdom of God -


for I was hungry and you gave Me food;
I was thirsty and you gave Me drink;
I was a stranger and you took Me in;
I was naked and you clothed Me;
I was sick and you visited Me;
I was in prison and you came to Me.’



JLB

 

[JLB]

There is only one way in which things go well with the people of God, and that is through a life of obedience, which God sees and honors if it is the obedience of Christ, which He sees in our hearts through our faith in His obedience to the death of the cross (Romans 6:17).

But God be thanked that though you were slaves of sin, yet you obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine to which you were delivered. Romans 6:17


This scripture plainly says that we must obey the teaching of Christ.


It does not say God looks into our heart and see’s us having faith in Christ’s obedience.


We ourselves must do the work of obeying Christ.

He doesn’t do the obeying for us.

He empowers us by His Spirit to obey.


He who says, “I know Him,” and does not keep His commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.
1 John 2:4



JLB

 

[JLB]

And different "men", churches, etc. are teaching different doctrine.
So, yes, some go with the one that sounds the easiest...not necessarily the one that most matches with scripture.

Amen.

One that relieves them of the obligation to own up to their sinful choices of a self seeking lifestyle.


eternal life to those who by patient continuance in doing good seek for glory, honor, and immortality; but to those who are self-seeking and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness—indignation and wrath, Romans 2:7-8

• but to those who are self-seeking and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness—

JLB

 

[JLB]

James described workless faith as “dead”. (James 2)
Paul says that all of it (grace, faith and salvation) are the “gift of God”. (Ephesians 2)

Faith for salvation is the gift of God.


Receiving the salvation of our soul involves us continuing in the faith even while being persecuted unto death.


In this you greatly rejoice, though now for a little while, if need be, you have been grieved by various trials, that the genuineness of your faith, being much more precious than gold that perishes, though it is tested by fire, may be found to praise, honor, and glory at the revelation of Jesus Christ, whom having not seen you love. Though now you do not see Him, yet believing, you rejoice with joy inexpressible and full of glory, receiving the end of your faith—the salvation of your souls. 1 Peter 1:5-9



There is initial salvation through faith, then there is the end result of our faith which is receiving the salvation of our soul.


If a person doesn’t grasp both sides of this proverbial coin, they will not be balanced in their understanding of the two concepts of faith.


If we have faith for something, then by default we have not yet obtained the reality of what we have faith for.


Faith is the substance of the thing we are hoping for...


Paul says it this way -


For we were saved in this hope, but hope that is seen is not hope; for why does one still hope for what he sees? But if we hope for what we do not see, we eagerly wait for it with perseverance. Romans 8:24-25


But if we hope for what we do not see, we eagerly wait for it with perseverance.


If we depart from the faith, the substance of our hope for salvation, are we still saved by faith?



JLB

 

[GodsGrace]

Any thoughts on why the ECF didn’t believe the Apostle Paul when he wrote that those God foreknew, God predestined and God called and God justified and God glorified (past tense in English, but a tense indicating a settled matter of fact in the Greek) [Romans 8] ... or when he wrote that we are sealed with the Holy Spirit as a guarantee of our inheritance (the redemption of God’s own possession) [Ephesians 1]?

I believe the Apostles rather than the opinions of the ECF.

Hi A,,,
I always have the feeling that persons don't understand who the early church fathers are.

It's interesting, however, that you do believe in one of them: Augustine...since he first brought up predestination; although not double predestination as the reformed believe.

You say you believe in the Apostles....the Early Church Fathers were taught by the Apostles.

Clement of Rome was taught by both Paul and Peter...can't get more direct than that. I'd say it's the closest we have to hearing the actual Apostles speak.

So, WHY believe Luther, Calvin, Knox, etc. in the year 1,500 AD and not Clement of Rome from the year 92 AD??

In any case:

Romans 8::28-30
28And we know that God causes all things to work together for good to those who love God, to those who are called according to His purpose.
29For those whom He foreknew, He also predestined to become conformed to the image of His Son, so that He would be the firstborn among many brethren;
30and these whom He predestined, He also called; and these whom He called, He also justified; and these whom He justified, He also glorified.

verse 28: EVERYTHING that happens to us God will use for our own good somehow because God loves us and will somehow allow this to be in His plan for us.

verse 29: For those whom God FOREKNEW....
God FORKNEW,,,He did NOT CHOOSE before the beginning of time.

What He DID CHOOSE is HOW those He foreknew would become saved: God PREDESTINED those He foreknew would choose Him to BECOME CONFORMED TO THE IMAGE OF HIS SON.
Jesus would be the firstborn who would have many brothers, or believers.

verse 30: And having thus saved us, or chosen us because He FOREKNEW that we would believe and accept, He called us to Him, and justified us to declare us saved...and those He justified He will also glorify (at our death).

We are told in the above HOW we would be saved,,,
and not WHO would be saved. God desires all men to come to salvation...all those that accept His terms which are clearly spelled out in the N.T.



As to Ephesians 1:13-14
13In Him, you also, after listening to the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation—having also believed, you were sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit of promise,
14who is given as a pledge of our inheritance, with a view to the redemption of God’s own possession, to the praise of His glory.

Verse 13 tells us that after listening to the message of truth and then having believed we were sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit OF PROMISE.

Verse 14 tells us that the Holy Spirit is given to us as PLEDGE of our inheritance,,,with VIEW to our inheritance.

Revelation 3:5 tells us that those who overcome will be dressed in white garments and God WILL NOT ERASE his name from the Book of Life.

The Holy Spirit is given as a promise....if we maintain what WE have promised to God --- to continue till the end, Matthew 24:13...then and only then will the guarantee of the Holy Spirit be allowed to be fulfilled.

Also see Romans 8:24-25
24For in hope we have been saved, but hope that is seen is not hope; for who hopes for what he already sees?
25But if we hope for what we do not see, with perseverance we wait eagerly for it.

Revelation 3:5
5‘He who overcomes will thus be clothed in white garments; and I will not erase his name from the book of life, and I will confess his name before My Father and before His angels.

Matthew 24:13
13“But the one who endures to the end, he will be saved.

 

[iLOVE]

But God be thanked that though you were slaves of sin, yet you obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine to which you were delivered. Romans 6:17


This scripture plainly says that we must obey the teaching of Christ.


It does not say God looks into our heart and see’s us having faith in Christ’s obedience.


We ourselves must do the work of obeying Christ.

He doesn’t do the obeying for us.

He empowers us by His Spirit to obey.


He who says, “I know Him,” and does not keep His commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.
1 John 2:4



JLB

Romans 6:17
“17 But God be thanked, that you were the servants of sin (slaves to the sin nature, what we were before we were Saved), but you have obeyed from the heart that form of Doctrine (Jesus Christ and Him Crucified; understanding that all things come to the Believer from God by the means of the Cross) which was delivered you (the Lord gave this “form of Doctrine” to Paul, and he gave it to us in his Epistles).”

I repeat: There is only one way in which things go well with the people of God, and that is through a life of obedience, which God sees and honors if it is the obedience of Christ, which He sees in our hearts through our faith in His obedience to the death of the cross (Romans 6:17).


1 Samuel 16:7
“7 But the LORD said unto Samuel, Look not on his countenance, or on the height of his stature; because I have refused him: for the Lord sees not as man sees; for man looks on the outward appearance, but the LORD looks on the heart (and only God knows the heart of man).”

Romans 8:13
“13 For if you live after the flesh (after your own strength and ability, which is outside of God’s Prescribed Order), you shall die (you will not be able to live a victorious, Christian life): but if you through the Spirit (by the Power of the Holy Spirit) do mortify the deeds of the body (which the Holy Spirit Alone can do), you shall live (shall walk in victory; but once again, even at the risk of being overly repetitive, we must never forget that the Spirit works totally and completely within the confines of the Cross of Christ; this means that we must ever make the Cross the Object of our Faith, giving Him latitude to work).”

JSM

 

[GodsGrace]

Romans 6:17
“17 But God be thanked, that you were the servants of sin (slaves to the sin nature, what we were before we were Saved), but you have obeyed from the heart that form of Doctrine (Jesus Christ and Him Crucified; understanding that all things come to the Believer from God by the means of the Cross) which was delivered you (the Lord gave this “form of Doctrine” to Paul, and he gave it to us in his Epistles).”

I repeat: There is only one way in which things go well with the people of God, and that is through a life of obedience, which God sees and honors if it is the obedience of Christ, which He sees in our hearts through our faith in His obedience to the death of the cross (Romans 6:17).


1 Samuel 16:7
“7 But the LORD said unto Samuel, Look not on his countenance, or on the height of his stature; because I have refused him: for the Lord sees not as man sees; for man looks on the outward appearance, but the LORD looks on the heart (and only God knows the heart of man).”

Romans 8:13
“13 For if you live after the flesh (after your own strength and ability, which is outside of God’s Prescribed Order), you shall die (you will not be able to live a victorious, Christian life): but if you through the Spirit (by the Power of the Holy Spirit) do mortify the deeds of the body (which the Holy Spirit Alone can do), you shall live (shall walk in victory; but once again, even at the risk of being overly repetitive, we must never forget that the Spirit works totally and completely within the confines of the Cross of Christ; this means that we must ever make the Cross the Object of our Faith, giving Him latitude to work).”

JSM

I just want to say that knowing what JLB believes and knowing what the JSM believes, I'd have to say that it's really the same.

However, by reading the red above, it does sound like the Holy Spirit does everything for us and we do nothing on our own.

This is different from what Jesus said in John 15:5...that we can do nothing without Him.

If we look at Matthew 28:20 we are told to observe all that Jesus has taught...He does NOT say that the Holy Spirit will do this work in us..it's something we have to do with the HELP of the Holy Spirit.
Matthew 28:20
20teaching them to observe all that I commanded you; and lo, I am with you always, even to the end of the age.”

To your understanding, is there a difference in the above two ideas?

Who does the work?
Does the Holy Spirit do all the work for us...
or do WE do the work with the help of the Holy Spirit?

Above you posted Romans 8:13, including the red commentary by JSM:
13 For if you live after the flesh (after your own strength and ability, which is outside of God’s Prescribed Order), you shall die.

Living after the flesh does NOT mean living after our own strength and ability...it means living to please our flesh.
Galatians 5:19-21
19Now the deeds of the flesh are evident, which are: immorality, impurity, sensuality,
20idolatry, sorcery, enmities, strife, jealousy, outbursts of anger, disputes, dissensions, factions,
21envying, drunkenness, carousing, and things like these, of which I forewarn you, just as I have forewarned you, that those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God.

If Paul tells us not to live according to the flesh, it must surely mean that it is our choice and up to our will NOT TO.

 

[atpollard]

It's interesting, however, that you do believe in one of them: Augustine...since he first brought up predestination; although not double predestination as the reformed believe.

You say you believe in the Apostles....the Early Church Fathers were taught by the Apostles.

You offered a lot, so let me respond to one point at a time.
1. When did the last Apostle die?
2. When was the last Early Church Father born? (Augustine, for example).

FYI: John was traditionally described as AD 6 to AD 100 and Augustine of Hippo was 13 November 354 – 28 August 430 AD.

Can you see the problem that I have with blanket statements like “the Early Church Fathers were taught by the Apostles”?

You and I were taught by the Apostles just as much as the Early Church Fathers whose writings you attempt to elevate to such importance. We have the exact same Gospel written by the Apostle John that the ECF read. We have the exact same letters from the Apostle Paul that the ECF read. In some cases, we are at a greater advantage than some of the ECF since we have all of the Apostolic writings accessible to us, while some ECF might have had limited access to some of the works. We also have the benefit of the ecumenical councils to discard the teachings of wolves that had infiltrated the early Church, some even denying Christ as both God and Man.

 

[Boaz]

Makes no sense.


Our obedience to Christ Jesus and his Gospel is how we are saved initially, and how we remain saved, and how we will receive the salvation of our soul on the Day of Judgement.


Initial Salvation through obedience -


Since you have purified your souls in obeying the truth through the Spirit in sincere love of the brethren, love one another fervently with a pure heart, having been born again, not of corruptible seed but incorruptible, through the word of God which lives and abides forever, 1 Peter 1:22-23

• you have purified your souls in obeying the truth through the Spirit

In this scripture we see how we are born again, by obeying the Gospel truth through the Spirit.

The grace of God being present to energize and help us to obey, being the power of God unto salvation.



Continuing to obey the truth unto eternal life: A life led by the Spirit -


God who “will render to each one according to his deeds”: eternal life to those who by patient continuance in doing good seek for glory, honor, and immortality; but to those who are self-seeking and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness—indignation and wrath, Romans 2:6-8

• eternal life to those who by patient continuance in doing good seek for glory, honor, and immortality;

• but to those who are self-seeking and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness—indignation and wrath,

Those who do not continue to obey the truth, will suffer eternal indignation and wrath in the lake of fire.


Only those who live according to the Spirit in obedience to the truth will inherit the kingdom of God.



Then the King will say to those on His right hand, ‘Come, you blessed of My Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world: for I was hungry and you gave Me food; I was thirsty and you gave Me drink; I was a stranger and you took Me in; I was naked and you clothed Me; I was sick and you visited Me; I was in prison and you came to Me.’
Matthew 25:34-36


Then the King will say to those on His right hand, ‘Come, you blessed of My Father, inherit the kingdom


The Lord Jesus Christ gives the reason why these will inherit the kingdom of God -


for I was hungry and you gave Me food;
I was thirsty and you gave Me drink;
I was a stranger and you took Me in;
I was naked and you clothed Me;
I was sick and you visited Me;
I was in prison and you came to Me.’



JLB

JLB
It is unclear to me what you mean when you say initial salvation by obedience. What precisely is the obedience you refer to and if it is the initial step, what do you mean by that? Does something follow this first step that completes salvation ,makes it real instead of possible?

 

[atpollard]

Clement of Rome was taught by both Paul and Peter...can't get more direct than that. I'd say it's the closest we have to hearing the actual Apostles speak.

Maybe. The dating of his letter to the church in Corinth is challenged as potentially second century by someone other than Clement I (but it is not my place to argue the origin of manuscripts). What bothers me about Clement’s letter to Corinth is how someone taught by the Apostle Peter and the Apostle Paul could so contradict the message of Jesus taught in the Gospels. Jesus taught about “leaders” as servants to all and Clement wrote about the duty to submit to “superiors” in the Church hierarchy. The message of Clement runs contrary to Paul’s teaching on the Church as the Body of Christ with all members being important ... especially the weaker members.

Who to follow? Jesus and Paul with their message of servant equality, or Clement with his message of respect and submission to established Church Hierarchy and authority.

Where the writings of Clement agree with God-breathed scripture, I accept the opinions of Clement as a fellow Christian and where the writings of Clement contradict God-breathed scripture, I choose Scripture over Clement.

That is how I view ALL the Early Church Fathers (and the later theologians like Luther and Calvin and Wesley and Spurgeon and Sproul as well).