Who is Mystery Babylon ?

[adelphos]

Finally! Someone else who "gets it!"

Years ago, when I was a Pre-tribulational, Pre-Millennialist, I loved all the Science Fiction. "When I was a child..." lol

 

[Acebopata]

All I know about this is

1. It's a mystery
2. It's ungodly
3. It will be destroyed
4. Some people will cheer
5. Some people will weep bitterly
6. It sounds like a nation or an important city.

 

[Lehigh3]

All I know about this is

1. It's a mystery
2. It's ungodly
3. It will be destroyed
4. Some people will cheer
5. Some people will weep bitterly
6. It sounds like a nation or an important city.

We already figured out this MYSTERY, but thanks for trying.

 

[Old Seer]

All I know about this is

1. It's a mystery
2. It's ungodly
3. It will be destroyed
4. Some people will cheer
5. Some people will weep bitterly
6. It sounds like a nation or an important city.

It's the institution of civilization--man made government verses Creator made man.

 

[Hitch]

It's the institution of civilization--man made government verses Creator made man.

Nope. It is a specific city of a specific time in history, as someone pointed out earlier, it is ancient Jerusalem.

 

[Old Seer]

Nope. It is a specific city of a specific time in history, as someone pointed out earlier, it is ancient Jerusalem.[/QUOTE/
That idea has been around for a 1000 years. It has to be wrong by now. In order to change the world you have to get rid of what runs it. Civilization is everywhere and the going idea to control the masses. Christians don't need to be controlled. Jerusalem has nothing to do with the establishment if civil government, Babylon does.

 

[Hitch]

Nope. It is a specific city of a specific time in history, as someone pointed out earlier, it is ancient Jerusalem.[/QUOTE/
That idea has been around for a 1000 years. It has to be wrong by now. In order to change the world you have to get rid of what runs it. Civilization is everywhere and the going idea to control the masses. Christians don't need to be controlled. Jerusalem has nothing to do with the establishment if civil government, babtlon does.

That has no bearing on the passage in question.

1And after these things I saw another angel come down from heaven, having great power; and the earth was lightened with his glory.

2And he cried mightily with a strong voice, saying, Babylon the great is fallen, is fallen, and is become the habitation of devils, and the hold of every foul spirit, and a cage of every unclean and hateful bird.

18And cried when they saw the smoke of her burning, saying, What city is like unto this great city!

Now it appears, that this babylon is a city ! Now what great city was it that has been responsible for this:

24 And in her was found the blood of prophets, and of saints, and of all that were slain upon the earth.

 

[smaller]

The fact that Mystery, Babylon has the term mystery attached to it MEANS you can't 'see it.'

Is there seriously anyone here who can see that mysteries speak to unseen matters?

s

 

[smaller]

Jerusalem never ruled over any part of the Roman empire, they were subject to it, Paul was on a higher social plane then most Jews because he was a Roman citizen. The secret to understanding Babylon is the word babylon, original babel and then an empire of babylon and then another empire of babylon during the time of Daniel. Babylon was a CITY that was the headquaters for a huge empire that ruled other kingdoms, that was what the city of Rome was when Revelation was written. Except for a brief time when Solomon was king,Jerusalem has never been a city that ruled over other kingdoms.

I see someone got some of the drift here. Yes, to understand Babylon from cover to cover, not just trying to pin the term on Jerusalem or Rome.

Babylon is a most interesting study. It involves and signifies both confusion and mixture. Which I might add seems to rule of the divisiveness of christian churches.

Cities carry 'different' spiritual names than their man given names. Jerusalem in Revelation is actually named 'Sodom' and 'Egypt.' Both a CITY and a COUNTRY in spiritual terminology.

Believers who don't spend time working with allegories and parables will never find understandings in eschatology as most of the deployments in both the Prophets of the O.T. and Revelation, and other places in the text where these matters are magnificently and painstakingly detailed are done so IN ALLEGORY and PARABLE. This fact will eventually force the good students of eschatology OFF of physical understandings of the matters and get them going in the direction they belong.

The sea that the woman arises from are actually people. The sea then does not mean a physical sea. Sea in the deployment is PEOPLE put forth so ALLEGORICALLY.

These things are taught 'allegorically' because they are dealing with matters that are not apparent to 'flesh eyes.' We can not for example SEE the devil and his messengers, yet we know via scripture they exist for no uncertain fact.

Babylon is in fact DIRECTLY LINKED to the DEVIL and any reader should be able to pick up this fact as it's right there in the open to see:

Revelation 18:2
And he cried mightily with a strong voice, saying, Babylon the great is fallen, is fallen, and is become the habitation of devils, and the hold of every foul spirit, and a cage of every unclean and hateful bird.

The physical city of Jerusalem or Rome you say? I can only shake my head for the ignorance, and then chuckle a little because I KNOW that the devil doesn't like his location pinpointed.

Believers will be led to look everywhere at everyone and everything else but WITHIN THEMSELVES for the location of MYSTERY BABYLON...

Those who see understand this matter as the FINAL ERADICATION of the devil and his messengers from the earth. And where are they but IN MAN? I mean seriously, Jesus showed WHERE the DEVILS were on just about every page of the N.T. Gospels. Yet believers still don't get it? Few understand that when the tempter tempts IN MIND this places the TEMPTER IN YOU.

And those who don't accept this fact will NEVER see or understand MYSTERY BABYLON. They haven't looked close enough to HOME.

In the end, in Revelation, this might bring some wisdom.

He who is taken CAPTIVE, to captivity he goes.

He who LIVES by the Sword must also DIE by the Sword.

The Word came to DIVIDE US FROM OUR SIN.

Sin is of the DEVIL. That SWORD is going to swing IN YOUR OWN TEMPLE.

enjoy!

s

 

[Stormcrow]

{4} The woman was clothed in purple and scarlet, and adorned with gold and precious stones and pearls…Revelation 17:4a

{1} Then the LORD spoke to Moses, saying, {2}"Tell the sons of Israel to raise a contribution for Me; from every man whose heart moves him you shall raise My contribution. {3} "This is the contribution which you are to raise from them: gold, silver and bronze, {4} blue, purple and scarlet material, fine linen, goat hair, {5} rams' skins dyed red, porpoise skins, acacia wood, {6} oil for lighting, spices for the anointing oil and for the fragrant incense, {7} onyx stones and setting stones for the ephod and for the breastpiece. {8} "Let them construct a sanctuary for Me, that I may dwell among them. Exodus 25:1-8 (NASB)

{31} "You shall make a veil of blue and purple and scarlet material and fine twisted linen; it shall be made with cherubim, the work of a skillful workman. {32} "You shall hang it on four pillars of acacia overlaid with gold, their hooks also being of gold, on four sockets of silver. {33} "You shall hang up the veil under the clasps, and shall bring in the ark of the testimony there within the veil; and the veil shall serve for you as a partition between the holy place and the holy of holies. Exodus 26:31-33 (NASB)

The woman of "Mystery Babylon" is dressed in the same "clothes" as were the Levitical priests and Jerusalem's Temple.

…having in her hand a gold cup full of abominations and of the unclean things of her immorality… Revelation 17:4b

In Judaism, the prospective bridegroom pops the question by pouring a cup of wine for his beloved, then anxiously awaits her response to his proposal. If she sips from the Kiddush (sanctification) cup, she shows her willingness to enter this union by saying "yes" to his proposal. Their shared cup of wine at a Jewish betrothal ceremony called Br'it (covenant) symbolizes the sealing of their marriage covenant in blood. The betrothed couple, for all legal purposes, is married.

http://www.rebeccaatthewell.org/jewishweddingbetrothalcup.html

Israel was offered the cup of sanctification and filled it with idolatry. Compare that with this scene from Christ's last Passover seder:

{27} And when He had taken a cup and given thanks, He gave it to them, saying, "Drink from it, all of you; {28} for this is My blood of the covenant, which is poured out for many for forgiveness of sins. Matthew 26:27-28 (NASB)

His disciples drank from the Kiddush (sanctification) cup and became the Church, the kingdom of God on earth. Israel’s priesthood did not.

{5} and on her forehead a name was written, a mystery, "BABYLON THE GREAT, THE MOTHER OF HARLOTS AND OF THE ABOMINATIONS OF THE EARTH."

{36} "You shall also make a plate of pure gold and shall engrave on it, like the engravings of a seal, 'Holy to the LORD.' {37} "You shall fasten it on a blue cord, and it shall be on the turban; it shall be at the front of the turban. {38} "It shall be on Aaron's forehead, and Aaron shall take away the iniquity of the holy things which the sons of Israel consecrate, with regard to all their holy gifts; and it shall always be on his forehead, that they may be accepted before the LORD. Exodus 28:36-38 (NASB)

Israel's priesthood was given a name to wear on their foreheads: 'Holy to the LORD.'

Israel’s priesthood – which crucified Messiah - replaced the mark on the forehead of sanctification given to Aaron with the mark of a different god:

{15} So they cried out, "Away with Him, away with Him, crucify Him!" Pilate *said to them, "Shall I crucify your King?" The chief priests answered, "We have no king but Caesar." John 19:15 (NASB)

{6} And I saw the woman drunk with the blood of the saints, and with the blood of the witnesses of Jesus. When I saw her, I wondered greatly. Revelation 17:4-6 (NASB)

{59} They went on stoning Stephen as he called on the Lord and said, "Lord Jesus, receive my spirit!" Acts 7:59 (NASB)

{1} Saul was in hearty agreement with putting him to death. And on that day a great persecution began against the church in Jerusalem, and they were all scattered throughout the regions of Judea and Samaria, except the apostles. {2} Some devout men buried Stephen, and made loud lamentation over him. {3} But Saul began ravaging the church, entering house after house, and dragging off men and women, he would put them in prison. Acts 8:1-3 (NASB)

{4} "I persecuted this Way to the death, binding and putting both men and women into prisons, Acts 22:4 (NASB)

{9} For I am the least of the apostles, and not fit to be called an apostle, because I persecuted the church of God. 1 Corinthians 15:9 (NASB)

The stoning of Stephen began the great Jewish persecution against the followers of Christ: a persecution which Saul (Paul) participated in with great enthusiasm.

{34} "Therefore, behold, I am sending you prophets and wise men and scribes; some of them you will kill and crucify, and some of them you will scourge in your synagogues, and persecute from city to city, {35} so that upon you may fall the guilt of all the righteous blood shed on earth, from the blood of righteous Abel to the blood of Zechariah, the son of Berechiah, whom you murdered between the temple and the altar. {36} "Truly I say to you, all these things will come upon this generation.

{37} "Jerusalem, Jerusalem, who kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to her! How often I wanted to gather your children together, the way a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, and you were unwilling. {38} "Behold, your house is being left to you desolate! Matthew 23:34-38 (NASB)

{24} "And in her was found the blood of prophets and of saints and of all who have been slain on the earth." Revelation 18:24 (NASB)

Mystery Babylon may be a mystery to some, but it’s no mystery to those who understand what the Bible teaches.

 

[smaller]

Mystery Babylon may be a mystery to some, but it’s no mystery to those who understand what the Bible teaches.

Cracking parables and allegories are a fact of scripture and the ways to crack them open are also identified in the scriptures themselves. In other words THE WORD Himself defines 'how' to understand them, and I can tell you for a fact that full preterism is a full blown pack of nonsense. They don't even have the simplest scriptural tools that are used and deployed to make the proper connections. Not a WHIFF of them.

The text, The Word, INTENTIONALLY obscures these matters because they are NOT meant to be understood by 'all' and they WON'T BE.

s

 

[Stormcrow]

I can tell you for a fact that full preterism is a full blown pack of nonsense.

In your opinion.

They don't even have the simplest scriptural tools that are used and deployed to make the proper connections. Not a WHIFF of them.

I just illustrated some of the undeniable and irrefutable connections here:

http://www.christianforums.net/showthread.php?t=35460&p=602596&viewfull=1#post602596

Dismiss them as you will.

The text, The Word, INTENTIONALLY obscures these matters because they are NOT meant to be understood by 'all' and they WON'T BE.

Revelation means to "reveal", not hide or obscure. You're the only one I see here trying to hide the plain truth of the Word.

 

[smaller]

I just illustrated some of the undeniable and irrefutable connections here:

http://www.christianforums.net/showthread.php?t=35460&p=602596&viewfull=1#post602596

Dismiss them as you will.

They are easily dismissed by the fact of missing VITAL components in the dissections that scripture itself say must be present to prove the understandings true and truthful to The Word.

The reason they are obscured is their understandings are not given to any who are dishonest before God. This fact will remain a fact and why many mysteries will never be understood. God does not cast His Pearls before swine.

Revelation means to "reveal", not hide or obscure. You're the only one I see here trying to hide the plain truth of the Word.

Well, you just give a fine example of the matters. Revelation is a TWO FOLD revealing. One of Christ and one of satan and devils.

Revelation itself states that Babylon is the habitation of devils. Devils are not in cities, but IN MAN so the entire 'physical city' premise is ridiculous, whether it be Jerusalem or Rome.

The fun part is that it can be put right in front of people such as yourself and you still can't see it. That is also why I ENJOY doing it because it PROVES that the Word is True and also proves 'many' can not and will not see it:

Revelation 18:2
And he cried mightily with a strong voice, saying, Babylon the great is fallen, is fallen, and is become the habitation of devils, and the hold of every foul spirit, and a cage of every unclean and hateful bird.

You don't even understand that THE LAW itself is PARABLE. Do you seriously think God in Christ in the O.T. was any different in the N.T?

Matthew 13:35
That it might be fulfilled which was spoken by the prophet, saying, I will open my mouth in parables; I will utter things which have been kept secret from the foundation of the world.

If one is not interested in listening to Jesus, He will not teach them anything.

enjoy!

s

 

[Stormcrow]

I think anyone with eyes to see and ears to hear can easily decide which interpretation of Revelation is correct, based on the preponderance of the clear and undeniable scriptural evidence.

Revelation wasn't written in a vacuum by a man unfamiliar with either the words of Christ, the Old Testament or history. It continues to amaze me that some - however - want to read it as though it were written by aliens from a far distant galaxy with absolutely no Jewish perspective whatsoever.

Whatever. 2

 

[Stormcrow]

One more thing:

I think the overly aggressive spiritualization of certain Biblical texts - especially in an attempt to obscure what has been made plain to us (the gospel of Christ, for instance) - is little more than modern day gnosticism gone wild. It certainly borders on a brand of mysticism that is heretical in nature.

For what it's worth.

 

[smaller]

One more thing:

I think the overly aggressive spiritualization of certain Biblical texts - especially in an attempt to obscure what has been made plain to us (the gospel of Christ, for instance) - is little more than modern day gnosticism gone wild. It certainly borders on a brand of mysticism that is heretical in nature.

For what it's worth.

I don't even know why full preterists even bother studying the matters if all is said and done on them as they present.

Why then even bother? To convince others that The Word is now irrelevant?

Yeah, good methodology, NOT.

s

 

[Hitch]

I don't even know why full preterists even bother studying the matters if all is said and done on them as they present.

Why then even bother? To convince others that The Word is now irrelevant?

Yeah, good methodology, NOT.

s

Yet another example if idiocy from smaller.

Gee small since you believe in the Nativity of 2,000 years ago, would I be correct in shouting that you deem it irrelevant?

 

[smaller]

Revelation wasn't written in a vacuum by a man unfamiliar with either the words of Christ, the Old Testament or history. It continues to amaze me that some - however - want to read it as though it were written by aliens from a far distant galaxy with absolutely no Jewish perspective whatsoever.

Whatever. 2

And some like to spin wild strawmen tales about the serious matters of theological studies.

If one sees the bold red print it takes NO DECIPHER whatsoever. But no, one will not be laying eyes on the components because they are in fact INVISIBLE.

Jesus taught and spoke to DEVILS on nearly every page of the N.T. and did so IN MANKIND.

But that same working 'in man' today will still RESIST the WORD and keep it from their VICTIMS.

Oh, and they IN MAN will also teach that THE WORD is no longer VALID. So I don't even blame the holders of these positions because of what Gods Word teaches on these matters.

This was a fact of scripture on Day 1 of Adam. It was a fact of scripture throughout the entire history of mankind and will continue to be a fact of scripture to this day and every day until SATAN and DEVILS are cast into the LAKE OF FIRE.

Mark 4:15
And these are they by the way side, where the word is sown; but when they have heard, Satan cometh immediately, and taketh away the word that was sown in their hearts.

Any teaching that does not HONOR JESUS' WORD FACTS on this matter are FALSE TEACHINGS by the false teachers who entered their minds when they picked up His Words.

I believe according to Mr. Stormcrow the Lake of Fire and destruction of satan and devils events already transpired. Correct that if it's wrong.

enjoy!

s

 

[smaller]

Yet another example if idiocy from smaller.

Gee small since you believe in the Nativity of 2,000 years ago, would I be correct in shouting that you deem it irrelevant?

The common fallacy that both of you gents like to run with is that The Word is only understood in historical context.

That entire basis is provably nonsense.

s

 

[Stormcrow]

And some like to spin wild strawmen tales about the serious matters of theological studies.

Again, most people will be able to look at the difference between our views and decide for themselves which better reflects serious "theological studies."

I do find it interesting, however, that a recitation of the pertinent O.T. verses to Revelation appears as nothing more to you than "wild strawmen tales."

Interesting, indeed.