Bible Study Who Told you, When you Die you go to Heaven?

[1Genesis]

Too many different ideas in the OT to base doctrine on that.
We should study Jesus in this regard...

Not on that subject.
It is very clear. Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.
John 14:2
In my Father's house are many rooms. If it were not so, would I have told you that I go to prepare a place for you?

Luke 23:43
And he said to him, “Truly, I say to you, today you will be with me in Paradise.”

Matthew 6:19-21
“Do not lay up for yourselves treasures on earth, where moth and rust destroy and where thieves break in and steal, but lay up for yourselves treasures in heaven, where neither moth nor rust destroys and where thieves do not break in and steal. For where your treasure is, there your heart will be also.


To counter it one would have to prove Jesus said we don't join the Father when we die. Do you have such a scripture?

I as a Christian would never hope to argue to fellow believers that it is debatable as to whether or not we go to Heaven, join with the Father, when we die. As if it is possible to debate in such a way that the scriptural evidence would support the redeemed in Christ would not.

 

[brujaq]

I don't believe in soul sleep.
A soul is energy and energy does not sleep or die,,,it just continues.
This is a scientific fact and God created scientific laws.
Even if we end up in Abraham's Bossom, it'll be a very nice place!

That's what I said . We've died once and reborn in Jesus to never die again .. But our body made of corruptible flesh does . I don't want or need this body, I've worn it out, quadruple by-pass heart surgery 10 yrs ago, worked construction around grinding dust, welding smoke, asbestos and nuclear power plants in refueling reactors shutdowns, , my lung Dr said my lungs would be compared to a 120 yr olds, eyes bad, ears but I feel good .. My lung disease says I should have checked out a couple years ago but I never complain or go to the Dr except to meet insurance requirements

 

[GodsGrace]

Not on that subject.
It is very clear. Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.
John 14:2
In my Father's house are many rooms. If it were not so, would I have told you that I go to prepare a place for you?

Luke 23:43
And he said to him, “Truly, I say to you, today you will be with me in Paradise.”

Matthew 6:19-21
“Do not lay up for yourselves treasures on earth, where moth and rust destroy and where thieves break in and steal, but lay up for yourselves treasures in heaven, where neither moth nor rust destroys and where thieves do not break in and steal. For where your treasure is, there your heart will be also.


To counter it one would have to prove Jesus said we don't join the Father when we die. Do you have such a scripture?

I as a Christian would never hope to argue to fellow believers that it is debatable as to whether or not we go to Heaven, join with the Father, when we die. As if it is possible to debate in such a way that the scriptural evidence would support the redeemed in Christ would not.

Not on computer...difficult to answer...

Regarding John 14:2
Jesus also said He would come back to get us to bring us there.
WHEN is he coming back? At the end of the world. So do we have to wait till then to go to heaven?

Regarding Luke...
Paradise is not heaven.
Paradise is Hades, or Abraham's Bossom.
See Luke 16: 19-31

Mathew is a concept...cannot do now.
However, it doesn't apply to this discussion unless you can explain further...

 

[GodsGrace]

That's what I said . We've died once and reborn in Jesus to never die again .. But our body made of corruptible flesh does . I don't want or need this body, I've worn it out, quadruple by-pass heart surgery 10 yrs ago, worked construction around grinding dust, welding smoke, asbestos and nuclear power plants in refueling reactors shutdowns, , my lung Dr said my lungs would be compared to a 120 yr olds, eyes bad, ears but I feel good .. My lung disease says I should have checked out a couple years ago but I never complain or go to the Dr except to meet insurance requirements

Amen!
We only die one time!
Paul said there are no words to describe heaven, that's how wonderful it is.

 

[Douglas Summers]

Hi Dear Sister wondering, due to your honest want to learn more about this subject, I just posted an article written by a bible teacher and pastor titled Death, Hell, and the Lake of Fire at the following URL link I hope will lead you seeing things that could be to your benefit.
http://christianforums.net/Fellowship/index.php?threads/death-hell-and-the-lake-of-fire.71723/

Blessings in Christ Jesus. The original study is: at http://www.gracegod.com/pamphlet_and_articles/pamphlets/Death, Hell and the Lake of Fire.pdf

A great and profitable URL link in which the Early Church believed and taught.

 

[brujaq]

Amen!
We only die one time!
Paul said there are no words to describe heaven, that's how wonderful it is.

If I could describe the two dreams I spoke about accurately to other folks there would be no one on Earth that didn't get saved right now sis ..

 

[1Genesis]

Not on computer...difficult to answer...

Regarding John 14:2
Jesus also said He would come back to get us to bring us there.
WHEN is he coming back? At the end of the world. So do we have to wait till then to go to heaven?

No, as Ecclesasties tells us.
Revelation 2:7
He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches. To the one who conquers I will grant to eat of the tree of life, which is in the paradise of God.’

Regarding Luke...
Paradise is not heaven.
Paradise is Hades, or Abraham's Bossom.
See Luke 16: 19-31

I know that there's a woman television pastor that teaches Jesus went to Hell after he died on the cross. I don't believe that. I also don't believe that Jesus would tell the thief on the cross, who as a thief unredeemed and according to the new covenant Jesus brought, would be separated from God for eternity.
Whereas Jesus told him instead that on that day, the thief would be with him in paradise.
Hell is not paradise. And when Jesus was inclusive of that thief , saying the thief would be with Jesus in paradise, according to your argument, that would mean Jesus was telling the thief, today you will be with me in Hell.

Mathew is a concept...cannot do now.
However, it doesn't apply to this discussion unless you can explain further...

Of course it does. Are you not familiar with the whole of the passage?
The Sermon on the Mount: Treasure in Heaven
19 “Do not store up for yourselves treasures on earth, where moth and consuming insect destroy and where thieves break in and steal, 20 but store up for yourselves treasures in heaven, where neither moth nor consuming insect destroy and where thieves do not break in or steal. 21 For where your treasure is, there your heart will be also.

Not on computer...difficult to answer...

OK

 

[GodsGrace]

No, as Ecclesasties tells us.
Revelation 2:7
He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches. To the one who conquers I will grant to eat of the tree of life, which is in the paradise of God.’

I know that there's a woman television pastor that teaches Jesus went to Hell after he died on the cross. I don't believe that. I also don't believe that Jesus would tell the thief on the cross, who as a thief unredeemed and according to the new covenant Jesus brought, would be separated from God for eternity.
Whereas Jesus told him instead that on that day, the thief would be with him in paradise.
Hell is not paradise. And when Jesus was inclusive of that thief , saying the thief would be with Jesus in paradise, according to your argument, that would mean Jesus was telling the thief, today you will be with me in Hell.



Of course it does. Are you not familiar with the whole of the passage?
The Sermon on the Mount: Treasure in Heaven
19 “Do not store up for yourselves treasures on earth, where moth and consuming insect destroy and where thieves break in and steal, 20 but store up for yourselves treasures in heaven, where neither moth nor consuming insect destroy and where thieves do not break in or steal. 21 For where your treasure is, there your heart will be also.
OK

I don't learn from TV or the internet.
You've misunderstood some of what I've said.
Tomorrow when I'm at my computer.
Sorry...

 

[1Genesis]

I don't learn from TV or the internet.
You've misunderstood some of what I've said.
Tomorrow when I'm at my computer.
Sorry...

I look forward to your return to the computer. I know phones are not comfortable for forum postings.
I wasn't saying you learn from the TV. Joyce Meyer, that's the name I couldn't recall as I wrote that. She teaches Christ went to Hell after he died on the cross. I don't know her denomination, but your pov is what made me think of her and her beliefs in that regard.

Till tomorrow.

 

[Bro.Tan]

You have to read the Bible from Genesis to Revelation and learn to get a full understanding and knowledge of what you reading, before you can post a verse and think you understand what you reading. We have to keep in mind that there are two resurrections. How can someone be resurrected if that already in heaven? So I’m getting ready to show you the first resurrection, which are the saints. So whatever scriptures or verses sounds like someone is in heaven, it talking about something else, this is what you need to understand, because these verses we are getting ready read are concrete verses. Which means that these verses can not be overturn by any other verses or scriptures in the Bible, plus we are at the end of the Bible.

Lets go read about the first one in Revelation 20:4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years. 5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.

So lets rewind a bit and see this first resurrection, because we need to understand how this came to be. This next verse we are getting to read take place toward the ending of the great tribulation. After the sky roll back and sun and moon do not give her light. Lets read this in Revelation 6: 12 And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood;

13 And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind. 14 And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places.

So after the sky is roll back, there will be some time in between, because the lord will be looking at the people who pierce him. Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen. (Rev. 1:7)

Now let see when the Lord is descending or coming down, and notice Jesus not coming with anybody, he coming alone.

Lets go into 1 Thessalonians 4: 13 But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope. 14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.

If you sleep in Jesus it means you have done his will. Lets keep reading and see how Jesus bring the saints with him.

15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.

This verse just told us that some will be alive to be in this first resurrection, the coming of Jesus, and there are those who will be asleep. Notice they asleep and not in heaven chilling and watching over people, smiling at all this hell going on.

16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

Notice: Only the dead in Christ will rise first, but the Lord has descended...meaning coming down

17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

Notice we those that where asleep or dead rise first, then those which are alive and remain rise next, to meet the Lord in the air, and altogether we the first resurrection.

Paul said in 1 Thessalonians 3:13 To the end he may stablish your hearts unblameable in holiness before God, even our Father, at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ with all his saints.

 

[th1b.taylor]

No, as Ecclesasties tells us.
Revelation 2:7
He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches. To the one who conquers I will grant to eat of the tree of life, which is in the paradise of God.’

I know that there's a woman television pastor that teaches Jesus went to Hell after he died on the cross. I don't believe that. I also don't believe that Jesus would tell the thief on the cross, who as a thief unredeemed and according to the new covenant Jesus brought, would be separated from God for eternity.
Whereas Jesus told him instead that on that day, the thief would be with him in paradise.
Hell is not paradise. And when Jesus was inclusive of that thief , saying the thief would be with Jesus in paradise, according to your argument, that would mean Jesus was telling the thief, today you will be with me in Hell.



Of course it does. Are you not familiar with the whole of the passage?
The Sermon on the Mount: Treasure in Heaven
19 “Do not store up for yourselves treasures on earth, where moth and consuming insect destroy and where thieves break in and steal, 20 but store up for yourselves treasures in heaven, where neither moth nor consuming insect destroy and where thieves do not break in or steal. 21 For where your treasure is, there your heart will be also.
OK

That woman that pretends to be a qualified man of one wife pastor is the Devil Personified. She teaches a lot of trash suc as Name It And Claim it.

 

[th1b.taylor]

Not posted

 

[th1b.taylor]

Bunk! Even Paul said to die is to be with the Christ, Jesus. Your error is astounding for a, supposedly. learned man. Neither you, I nor any other man are the body that contains us!

Before God sent His Son to pay the debt we owe the three persons of the Godhead were all three Spirit Beings that we cannot see with the natural eye. We must learn that these containers, our bodies are not who we are.

When our bodies expire the Spirit inside of us goes to Heaven and the body is eaten by the worms that hatch from the eggs contained in the food we consume. In death we return to where we belong to await the Resurrection. (Rev. 6:9-11)

 

[Douglas Summers]

That woman that pretends to be a qualified man of one wife pastor is the Devil Personified. She teaches a lot of trash suc as Name It And Claim it.

I agree Bill, I do not know why Christians so called are ready to set someone else's teachings above the teachings of Christ. The tickling of ears maybe? (2 Tim. 4:2-4) (Isaiah 30:10) (Jude 1:18) The Adamic nature can not understand God's grace. Vanity is the seed of sin. It was the first cause of sin. (Ezek. 28:11-19) (Isa. 14:12-17). Man always tries to take away God's grace by faith by believing that , "He has done Good works to deserve God's grace. "Amazing Grace",But It's amazing because, before the New Covenant, man would strive to be obedient by the works of the flesh to be in God's favor, but through the Law of sacrifices, man looked forward to God's promise of a redeemer. (Faith in God's promise). So all the warnings to men before the New Covenant were to obey God and strive against sin looking forward to The promised redeemer. Trust in me Christ asked. So up until the day of Pentecost, men were under the obedience of the flesh until the New Covenant, that gave us the Spirit that would keep us secure by putting the Laws of God into our mind and heart, no more a man saying know the lord, but instead, having Him lead you by rebirth (the indwelling Spirit)....not fleshy works. (Hebrews Chapters 7 & 8) That is why it is (Amazing Grace) For Salvation is not dependent upon mans effort, For ,then Grace would not be Grace. And if a man sins by the weakness of the flesh, Christ is our eternal sacrifice between man and God. Epistle of 1 John.

 

[Apousía]

You've said this before.

I dont understand.....
Who here has said that heaven is a real place?
It most probably is a dimension, as you've stated.
But to the person's there...it would feel like a place.
Where was Paul taken?
2 Corinthians 12:1-6 ?
Surely to him it was a real place.

Sure thing, lets take a closer look

The word he used in the verse you linked is translated as " paradise ", which has some wildly varying meanings:

παραδεισος paradeisos {par-ad'-i-sos} ; TDNT - 5:765,777; n m AV - paradise 3; 3 1) among the Persians a grand enclosure or preserve, hunting ground, park, shady and well watered, in which wild animals, were kept for the hunt; it was enclosed by walls and furnished with towers for the hunters 2) a garden, pleasure ground 2a) grove, park 3) the part of Hades which was thought by the later Jews to be the abode of the souls of pious until the resurrection: but some understand this to be a heavenly paradise 4) the upper regions of the heavens. According to the early church Fathers, the paradise in which our first parents dwelt before the fall still exists, neither on the earth or in the heavens, but above and beyond the world

cf Strong's Hebrew 6508

פרדס pardec {par-dace'}; TWOT - 1808; n m AV - orchard 2, forest 1; 3 1) park, preserve, enclosed garden, forest

Would make more sense, considering that if Christ is the High Priest, ( Which he is ) who comes from a long line of High Priests before him, from the days when a High Priest was a King, a Priest and an astronomer for the Temple, when they did their work in what was called the " Garden of the Gods "

 

[Bro.Tan]

Bunk! Even Paul said to die is to be with the Christ, Jesus. Your error is astounding for a, supposedly. learned man. Neither you, I nor any other man are the body that contains us!

Before God sent His Son to pay the debt we owe the three persons of the Godhead were all three Spirit Beings that we cannot see with the natural eye. We must learn that these containers, our bodies are not who we are.

When our bodies expire the Spirit inside of us goes to Heaven and the body is eaten by the worms that hatch from the eggs contained in the food we consume. In death we return to where we belong to await the Resurrection. (Rev. 6:9-11)

In the scriptures it's written in Ecclesiastes 3:21 Who knoweth the spirit of man that goeth upward, and the spirit of the beast that goeth downward to the earth?

 

[Free]

2 Corinthians 5: 6 Therefore we are always confident, knowing that, whilst we are at home in the body, we are absent from the Lord: Paul is saying Jesus in Heaven and we on earth. For example: When Parents takes trips out of town and leave their children at home with instruction to follow.
....
8 We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord. Paul is talking about being spiritual minded.

Um, no. You cannot logically argue to "Jesus in Heaven" and "we on earth," when Paul says "that while we are at home in the body we are away from the Lord," and then completely change the meaning of what was just said by saying that being "absent from the body" and "present with the Lord" is "talking about being spiritually minded." That is poor exegesis.

Paul is clearly drawing a parallel here. Being "at home in the body" is being contrasted with being "absent from the body," just as being "absent from the Lord" is being contrasted with being "present with the Lord." The meanings are the same. So either Paul is, according to your argument, referring to "being spiritually minded" in both verses, or he is talking in both verses about literally being in (or out) of our bodies and absent (or present) with the Lord. And it clearly is this that Paul is speaking of.

 

[Bro.Tan]

Um, no. You cannot logically argue to "Jesus in Heaven" and "we on earth," when Paul says "that while we are at home in the body we are away from the Lord," and then completely change the meaning of what was just said by saying that being "absent from the body" and "present with the Lord" is "talking about being spiritually minded." That is poor exegesis.

Paul is clearly drawing a parallel here. Being "at home in the body" is being contrasted with being "absent from the body," just as being "absent from the Lord" is being contrasted with being "present with the Lord." The meanings are the same. So either Paul is, according to your argument, referring to "being spiritually minded" in both verses, or he is talking in both verses about literally being in (or out) of our bodies and absent (or present) with the Lord. And it clearly is this that Paul is speaking of.

When some one do not understand the difference between spiritual and physical, I guess they would say its poor exegesis. The point was that, that verse is not saying that people were in Heaven. Lets take a look at another spiritual saying that might sound similar in John 10:38 But if I do, though ye believe not me, believe the works: that ye may know, and believe, that the Father is in me, and I in him. So this is kinda what Paul was saying, as we know that the father is really not there, but when Jesus say that the father is in me and I in him, meaning that they are of the same mind. Paul was saying that to be absent from the body and be present with the lord, because no one is in heaven present with the Lord at this point, but the father, but when Jesus was on earth it was like the Father was present with him.

 

[JLB]

Preachers are misleading people into believing fantasy stories. People go to grave talking to dirt and statutes, buying flowers, wasting time and money. People believing that they love ones are looking down on them smiling, with all this hell going on in earth. When a person dies, does he or she have any consciousness? Does a puff of smoke leave their body and go flying off into the third heaven? Do you really believe your love ones looking down at you from heaven, smiling. Or do they just float around the earth hunting houses, jumping from behind trees scaring people? If you have a logical bone in your body you know that is sheer nonsense. It is also written in your law, that the testimony of two men is true" (John 8:17). We will quote testimonies from the Prophets and the Apostle.

Who gave them the word? (Acts 7:52 Which of the prophets have not your fathers persecuted? and they have slain them which showed before of the coming of the Just One; of whom ye have been now the betrayers and murderers: 53 Who have received the law by the disposition of angels, and have not kept it.) They received the law by the disposition of angels.

Where did the angels get the word? (Revelation 1:1 The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to show unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass; and he sent and signified it by his angel unto his servant John The angels got it from the Lord. The Lord got it from the Father. The Prophets and the Apostle are simply quoting the Lord. If you don't believe them, you don't believe the Lord.

Our first witness is Solomon. He is very wise, as a matter of fact he was wiser than any man that walked the earth, except for Jesus of course. Why? I Kings 3:28 And all Israel heard of the judgment which the king had judged; and they feared the king: for they saw that the wisdom of God was in him, to do judgment. I Kings 4:1 So king Solomon was king over all Israel. He had the wisdom of God.

Let' see what Solomon has to say about this subject. Ecclesiastes 9:3 This is an evil among all things that are done under the sun, that there is one event unto all: yea, also the heart of the sons of men is full of evil, and madness is in their heart while they live, and after that they go to the dead.

Take a look at what Solomon said. This event happened to us all while we are under the sun. Why did he say under the sun? We'll find this out later. Pay close attention here. The heart of the sons of men is full of evil, and madness is in their heart while they live. While they live. Then what happens after that? They go to the dead.

6 So we are always confident, knowing that while we are at home in the body we are absent from the Lord. 7 For we walk by faith, not by sight. 8 We are confident, yes, well pleased rather to be absent from the body and to be present with the Lord.
9 Therefore we make it our aim, whether present or absent, to be well pleasing to Him. 2 Corinthians 5:6-9

• to be absent from the body and to be present with the Lord.

JLB

 

[Bro.Tan]

6 So we are always confident, knowing that while we are at home in the body we are absent from the Lord. 7 For we walk by faith, not by sight. 8 We are confident, yes, well pleased rather to be absent from the body and to be present with the Lord.
9 Therefore we make it our aim, whether present or absent, to be well pleasing to Him. 2 Corinthians 5:6-9

• to be absent from the body and to be present with the Lord.

JLB

You posting Paul writing over the prophets. If the prophet already have spoken concerning the dead why do you doubt the prophets, in the first place? 2 Peter 1:21 For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost. The prophets had the Holy Ghost to, they no the word of God before Paul.

Solomon says in Ecclesiastes 9:5 For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten.

For the living know not any thing, neither any more reward. Why? Once you're dead there is no more hope. If you went to the grave in Christ, he will awake you in the first resurrection, and you will live and reign on the earth with him and the saints. If you did not die in Christ he will wake you in the second resurrection and you will be judged according to your works. If you are dead do you have any memory? What did Solomon say? "For the memory of them is forgotten". Now we know you have no more memory while you are in the grave. If you did something wrong to a person and they're dead, you don't have to worry, they won't come and haunt your house.

Solomon said in Ecclesiastes 9:6 Also their love, and their hatred, and their envy, is now perished; neither have they any more a portion for ever in any thing that is done under the sun.

This verse speaks for itself. To put it short you don't remember anything while you are in the grave. Why does he continue to say "under the sun"? He's said it twice. We will find out a little later.

Ecclesiastes 9:10 Whatsoever thy hand findeth to do, do it with thy might; for there is no work, nor device, nor knowledge, nor wisdom, in the grave whither thou goest.

If there is no work, no device, no knowledge, no wisdom, in the grave, why does
he status quo say there are spirits that walk the earth? They have no knowledge of the Word of God. There are spirits that walk the earth, but they are not dead people.

If Paul and Solomon was alive you would be starting a argument between them to.