Who/What Are The Two Witnesses?

[veteran]

as far as the gentiles trampling it under foot for 42 months, i was not saying the gentiles are christians, i am saying the gentiles are the unbelievers who make war on the saints and trample THEM the saints underfoot for 42 months. You have to remember that yes new jerusalem is in heaven and WE who are ON EARTH now alive as believers are ALREADY in new jerusalem in heaven. We are physically on earth but we are already seated in heavenly places with Christ Jesus- We have already come to heavenly jerusalem to mt zion NOW through Jesus blood
Hbr 12:22 But ye are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels,
Hbr 12:23 To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect,
Hbr 12:24 And to Jesus the mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling, that speaketh better things than [that of] Abel.

So WE can be trampled by the beast as it says it will be given to make war on the saints. itis not a physical city that is being trampled itis christians who stand in the outer court and city spiritually.

No, you're trying to 'spiritualize' the literal events our Lord is giving there in Rev.11 about the area of Jerusalem. That Rev.11:1-2 section is about the literal area of Jerusalem during the future great tribulation timing. It's literal Jerusalem because one, Christ gave what city those events are about in the Rev.11:8 verse, calling Jerusalem spiritually as Sodom and Egypt. And secondly, Christ foretells us about the two witnesses there being killed with their dead bodies laying in the street for three and one half days, and then they ARISE, shocking those who see that. It's going to be a very important Witness for the unbelieving there in Jerusalem.

Moreover, the "reed" John was given we are told was "like unto a rod". The way the NT uses that word for "rod" is as a stave or a literal punishing rod. The WHOLE Revelation 11 chapter is especially about the area of Jerusalem on earth in a fallen condition, with God sending two prophets there to give His final Witness for this world, and then Christ's second coming there bringing His "rod of iron" for punishment upon the wicked! AND, even AFTER Christ arrives there and the wicked knows it's Him, in Rev.11:18-19 the nations against Him become angry (enraged, exasperated). That happens because it will be the wicked that have taken over Jerusalem, even the second beast of Rev.13 being there.

Jerusalem on earth is where the big pimple is going to pop.

Now I do agree on the point that all true Christians among all nations will be persecuted during that time of God's literal two witnesses prophesy from Jerusalem. The measuring being done with a "reed like unto a rod" means a reed like unto a punishing rod. That measuring is not about true saints either. It's about the deceived who will trek to Jerusalem in the endtimes to worship the second beast that will appear there in Jerusalem.

The first supernatural messiah that shows up doing great signs and wonders on the earth in the sight of men, will cause a great falling away of deceived believers. The Pre-Trib Churches already have those deceived prepared to fly away there to that false messiah who is to first appear there prior to Christ's coming.

 

[GodspromisesRyes]

No, you're trying to 'spiritualize' the literal events our Lord is giving there in Rev.11 about the area of Jerusalem. That Rev.11:1-2 section is about the literal area of Jerusalem during the future great tribulation timing. It's literal Jerusalem because one, Christ gave what city those events are about in the Rev.11:8 verse, calling Jerusalem spiritually as Sodom and Egypt. And secondly, Christ foretells us about the two witnesses there being killed with their dead bodies laying in the street for three and one half days, and then they ARISE, shocking those who see that. It's going to be a very important Witness for the unbelieving there in Jerusalem.

Moreover, the "reed" John was given we are told was "like unto a rod". The way the NT uses that word for "rod" is as a stave or a literal punishing rod. The WHOLE Revelation 11 chapter is especially about the area of Jerusalem on earth in a fallen condition, with God sending two prophets there to give His final Witness for this world, and then Christ's second coming there bringing His "rod of iron" for punishment upon the wicked! AND, even AFTER Christ arrives there and the wicked knows it's Him, in Rev.11:18-19 the nations against Him become angry (enraged, exasperated). That happens because it will be the wicked that have taken over Jerusalem, even the second beast of Rev.13 being there.

Jerusalem on earth is where the big pimple is going to pop.

Now I do agree on the point that all true Christians among all nations will be persecuted during that time of God's literal two witnesses prophesy from Jerusalem. The measuring being done with a "reed like unto a rod" means a reed like unto a punishing rod. That measuring is not about true saints either. It's about the deceived who will trek to Jerusalem in the endtimes to worship the second beast that will appear there in Jerusalem.

The first supernatural messiah that shows up doing great signs and wonders on the earth in the sight of men, will cause a great falling away of deceived believers. The Pre-Trib Churches already have those deceived prepared to fly away there to that false messiah who is to first appear there prior to Christ's coming.

ok let me ask you something here, if in rev 11 it is a physical temple in physical jerusalem- and if the antichrist is a singular person who will stand in that literal temple and set up an abomination and stop sacrifices- then why are only the court and city given to be trampled and not the whole temple and them that worship there in also going to be tramblpled since they would all have to be antichrists spiritually to be worshipping in that temple and that temple would be desolated and abominable?


According to how you are putting it, the physical temple would already be being tread under the foot of gentiles as the antichrist would be desolating it and stopping sacrifices.

now as far as the two witnesses go i have a question. We know that revelation is written in veiled spiritual scriptural language. how to you jump back and forth between what is completely on the surface literal languge with no symbilsim or spiritual meaning to what is? Should there not be a consistant theme throughout? That is, if we need to search the scriptures to come up with the proper understanding of who mytersy babylon is, or who the woman is or who a beast is should we not do so through every detail of the book searching the whole scripture for the full revelation of each detail instead of just desiding somet hings are 100% literally written while others are not?

This is prob the most important question because we can get into the depths of these things in scripture but if we do not understand and agree that to understand these things scripture has to interpret scripture and reveal what is hidden then we dont be helping each other

 

[veteran]

Consider what the idea of measuring the temple is for. It's always about the area of Jerusalem on earth.

Isa 28:17-18
17 Judgment also will I lay to the line, and righteousness to the plummet: and the hail shall sweep away the refuge of lies, and the waters shall overflow the hiding place.
18 And your covenant with death shall be disannulled, and your agreement with hell shall not stand; when the overflowing scourge shall pass through, then ye shall be trodden down by it.
(KJV)

What people is God talking about in that Isaiah 28 example? He's speaking that to His people Israel, to the mockers of His people who refuse to understand. What is that "covenant with death" and their "agreement with hell" they make?

Zech 2:1-7
1 I lifted up mine eyes again, and looked, and behold a man with a measuring line in his hand.
2 Then said I, Whither goest thou? And he said unto me, To measure Jerusalem, to see what is the breadth thereof, and what is the length thereof.
3 And, behold, the angel that talked with me went forth, and another angel went out to meet him,
4 And said unto him, Run, speak to this young man, saying, Jerusalem shall be inhabited as towns without walls for the multitude of men and cattle therein:
5 For I, saith the LORD, will be unto her a wall of fire round about, and will be the glory in the midst of her.
6 Ho, ho, come forth, and flee from the land of the north, saith the LORD: for I have spread you abroad as the four winds of the heaven, saith the LORD.
7 Deliver thyself, O Zion, that dwellest with the daughter of Babylon.
(KJV)

God gives us a contrast with that idea of measuring. One time of measuring will be false, and another measuring will be true, meaning when Christ comes to rescue Jerusalem from His enemies.

The examples of true measuring are the ones for after Christ's coming, during the Milennial time, like Ezekiel 40 forward and in Rev.21. But the measuring in Rev.11:1-2 is different, showing the fake.

There is an enemy that has crept into the "house of Judah" at Jerusalem, and they are tricking the rest of Judah into believing it's time to rebuild the temple in Jerusalem and start up Old Covenant worship again. The devout believers of Judah there, though they are deceived by refusing Christ Jesus, want that new temple badly, for they believe that's the only way they can properly worship God. God is going to allow it, but the one He's going to let sit in it is not going to be Christ Jesus The Messiah. That's their covenant with death those deceived will make there, unknowingly. That's what that "vile person" of the Book of Daniel is to serve as, a deception, even the "strong delusion" idea Paul mentioned about a false one sitting in the temple showing himself that he is God.

So the Rev.11:1 is not about Christians, if about any of God's people, it's about the deceived of the house of Judah in Jerusalem.

 

[veteran]

now as far as the two witnesses go i have a question. We know that revelation is written in veiled spiritual scriptural language. how to you jump back and forth between what is completely on the surface literal languge with no symbilsim or spiritual meaning to what is? Should there not be a consistant theme throughout? That is, if we need to search the scriptures to come up with the proper understanding of who mytersy babylon is, or who the woman is or who a beast is should we not do so through every detail of the book searching the whole scripture for the full revelation of each detail instead of just desiding somet hings are 100% literally written while others are not?

You've raised a very good question. But it's not that difficult to answer. The difficulty is with a matter called discipline.

The simple answer is that only by study of ALL of God's Word line upon line can we know the difference between figurative and literal meaning within God's Word; line upon line, precept upon precept, here a little and there a little is how God showed that is to be done (Isaiah 28). In Isaiah 28 God also showed the result of those who refuse to do that, His Word becomes a stumbling to them.

Isa 28:9-13
9 Whom shall He teach knowledge? and whom shall He make to understand doctrine? them that are weaned from the milk, and drawn from the breasts.

Remember the Apostle Paul's rebuke in Hebrews 5 towards believers that were still on the "milk" of God's Word, saying they should have been teachers instead needing to be taught again the first principles of the oracles of God. He mentioned they should have been on the "strong meat" and not need of milk. Did you know OT Scripture like this Isaiah 28:9 passage is where Paul got that "milk" vs. "strong meat" idea?

10 For precept must be upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little:

In the Hebrew, this Isaiah 28:10 verse flows like a song, a mocking song. What God is doing is using the mocking voice of the rebellious who refuse to stay in His Word line upon line (specifically pointing to Israel in that time). Does this reveal God doesn't like it when we jump around in His Word like a trampoline, never covering It in the mind line upon line so It flows the way He intended? Yes. And for that reason, He gives the following rebuke...

11 For with stammering lips and another tongue will He speak to this people.

The Hebrew word for "with stammering" means 'a baffoon, a foreigner, a mocker'. In that time of history, that one God sent was the king of Assyria, and later the king of Babylon. How might that apply as an "ensample" for the endtimes in Jerusalem per the Rev.11 events, and the false one to come? Apostle Paul told us the OT events serve as "ensamples" for those upon whom the ends of this world are come (1 Corithians 10). The historical kings of Assyria and Babylon serve as 'types' for the final one yet to come in Jerusalem in the days just prior to Christ's return. That means many of these OT Messages like here in Isaiah 28 apply to God's people today also.

12 To whom He said, This is the rest wherewith ye may cause the weary to rest; and this is the refreshing: yet they would not hear.
13 But the word of the LORD was unto them precept upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little; that they might go, and fall backward, and be broken, and snared, and taken.(KJV)

They refused to 'hear' His Word line upon line. And for that reason, for not staying disciplined in God's Word line upon line, The Word was to them "precept upon precept...", and they would fall backward, be broken, and taken, meaning taken by their own deceptions. In the next verses that falling away condition is shown to be very serious, for it's about their making a "covenant with death".

Someone else on this forum mentioned about their study in the OT Books, that they could see many verses within the prophets that there's no way certain events in them could have been fulfilled yet. The only way they could discover that is by first studying line upon line to get the flow of Scripture in their mind. Only by doing that first can one properly make the required connections between other Bible Books about a matter.

But of course, that requires 'discipline' to do it God's Way.

You know, a fellow-believer came up to me once and complained how his Sunday School teacher kept jumping around in The Word each Sunday, covering a single verse on a different topic each time, never getting around to covering even a whole chapter line by line. I showed my friend this Isaiah 28 Message, so he asked his Sunday School teacher when he was going to start covering The Bible line upon line? Can you imagine what the teacher told him? It was something like, "You must think we have all the time in the world!" Well, that's an excuse, not an answer. The teacher probably hadn't covered all The Bible himself, so how could he perform it anyway? So does what God said to His people about that in Isaiah's time still apply today?

Isa 29:11-12
11 And the vision of all is become unto you as the words of a book that is sealed, which men deliver to one that is learned, saying, Read this, I pray thee: and he saith, "I cannot; for it is sealed:"
12 And the book is delivered to him that is not learned, saying, "Read this, I pray thee:" and he saith, "I am not learned."
(KJV)

Our Lord Jesus told the Jews who believed on Him that if they stayed in His Word, they would become His disciples indeed, and they would know the Truth, and It would make them free. The word 'disciple' comes from the our English word 'discipline'. So discipline in God's Word, precept upon precept, line upon line, here a little and there a little, is one of the major requirements to understanding. The first requirement is asking our Heavenly Father through His Son to open our understanding. Howbeit, we all will still sometimes make mistakes; none are perfect in their understanding. I know I'm certainly not.

 

[veteran]

now as far as the two witnesses go i have a question. We know that revelation is written in veiled spiritual scriptural language. how to you jump back and forth between what is completely on the surface literal languge with no symbilsim or spiritual meaning to what is? Should there not be a consistant theme throughout? That is, if we need to search the scriptures to come up with the proper understanding of who mytersy babylon is, or who the woman is or who a beast is should we not do so through every detail of the book searching the whole scripture for the full revelation of each detail instead of just desiding somet hings are 100% literally written while others are not?

In truth, Revelation means 'the unveiling', to open, to lay bear. The only way our Lord's Book of Revelation could seem to be in veiled language is from not doing line upon line study in all of God's Word first.

The figurative terms in Revelation were first taught in the Old Testament Books. Have you not read about the locust army God first mentioned in the Book of Joel that helps explain the locusts of Rev.9? There's one such example.

Have you not read about the 'woes' God gives upon the nations surrounding Jerusalem, and then upon Jerusalem in final, per the Book of Isaiah?

Have you not read about the detailed account of the Holy City given in the last 9 chapters of Ezekiel, in relation to the layout of the Holy City in Rev.21?

Have you not understood about God's River in Eden per Genesis 2 and Ezekiel 47, in relation to that River of Rev.22?

Have you not read about the Tree of Life in the midst of God's Garden which Christ mentioned again in Rev.2 and Rev.22?

Have you not understood about "that old serpent" in God's Garden of Eden per Gen.2 & 3 which Christ declares was Satan per Rev.12:9 and 20:2?

Have you not understood about the connection with the "untimely figs" of Rev.6 and the parable of the fig tree our Lord Jesus gave in The Gospel Books?

Have you not understood why our Lord Jesus mentioned the previous beast kingdoms of Dan.7 in correlation with the first beast of Rev.13:1?

Have you not understood the idea of the seven kings our Lord gave in Rev.17:10 in relation to the previous kings of the beast kingdoms in Daniel? The 6th king was in John's day, the 7th and 8th yet to come.

Have you not understood how that Satan is called a 'king', per Rev.9?

Have you not read about the destruction of historical Babylon in Isaiah 21, with the words "Babylon is fallen, is fallen" being repeated in Rev.18:2?

Have you not read Ezekiel 16 where God gives a description of Jerusalem as a harlot which He cleanses, dresses with expensive jewels and then marries her?

Haven you not studied about the king of Babylon of history in the Book of Daniel, about the golden image idol the false prophets had him erect and cause all that would not bow in worship to it to be killed? Have you not linked that to what the "another beast" does at the end of Rev.13?

Believe me or not, it's already been written in the Books of God's prophets, for God said He tells us of things before He does them (Isaiah 42:9).

 

[GodspromisesRyes]

vetern- i think you are missing the point i am making. i am not disagreeing on line upon line line here a little there a little nor am i saying that i dont understand that these things are found elsewhere in the word of God giving us the meanings, nor am i saying it is veiled to those who know the word, i was mking a poin that it is written veiled so those who do no tknow the word will not see it.

It is precisily for this reason that we should know from the wholeness of the word of God that the two witnesses are not two individual people and that jerusalem is not the physical place. but it does seem like the usefulness of this discussion between the two of us has run its course so i will leave off with it for now unless something comes back up.

 

[veteran]

I must strongly disagree with you again, because what you've said shows you're still wanting to apply a 'spiritual' type meaning to literal things we are told in Rev.11 about physical Jerusalem.

You should recognize Rev.11:8 where our Lord tells us just what place He's calling Sodom and Egypt in the spiritual sense, because the verse says it's where He was crucified. That strikes out the possibility of it being of any other place, pointing directly to Jerusalem on earth because that's where Christ was crucified. That "where also our Lord was crucified" is a direct statement, no spiritual conotation to it.

If you've studied all of God's Word, then you shouldn't want to change that direct pointer our Lord Jesus gave there about where He was crucified. Maybe you should consider what trying to change that pointer would mean. It would mean not believing His crucifixion was a literal event. That kind of thinking for a Christian treads very dangerous ground.

 

[GodspromisesRyes]

I must strongly disagree with you again, because what you've said shows you're still wanting to apply a 'spiritual' type meaning to literal things we are told in Rev.11 about physical Jerusalem.

You should recognize Rev.11:8 where our Lord tells us just what place He's calling Sodom and Egypt in the spiritual sense, because the verse says it's where He was crucified. That strikes out the possibility of it being of any other place, pointing directly to Jerusalem on earth because that's where Christ was crucified. That "where also our Lord was crucified" is a direct statement, no spiritual conotation to it.

If you've studied all of God's Word, then you shouldn't want to change that direct pointer our Lord Jesus gave there about where He was crucified. Maybe you should consider what trying to change that pointer would mean. It would mean not believing His crucifixion was a literal event. That kind of thinking for a Christian treads very dangerous ground.

Thank you for your concern, i understand where you are coming from but Jesus was not crucified IN jerusalem. He was crucified outside of the city.
Mar 15:22 And they bring him unto the place Golgotha, which is, being interpreted, The place of a skull.

Strong's G1115 - Golgotha Golgotha = "skull"

1) the name of a place outside Jerusalem where Jesus was crucified; so called, apparently because its form resembled a skull

Hbr 13:11 For the bodies of those beasts, whose blood is brought into the sanctuary by the high priest for sin, are burned without the camp.
Hbr 13:12 Wherefore Jesus also, that he might sanctify the people with his own blood, suffered without the gate.
Hbr 13:13 Let us go forth therefore unto him without the camp, bearing his reproach.
Hbr 13:14 For here have we no continuing city, but we seek one to come.


Rev 11:8 And their dead bodies [shall lie] in the street of the great city, which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also our Lord was crucified.

Notice this is the " great city which SPIRITUALLY is sodom and egypt.
Rev 14:8 And there followed another angel, saying, Babylon is fallen, is fallen, that great city, because she made all nations drink of the wine of the wrath of her fornication.
Rev 16:19 And the great city was divided into three parts, and the cities of the nations fell: and great Babylon came in remembrance before God, to give unto her the cup of the wine of the fierceness of his wrath.
Rev 17:18 And the woman which thou sawest is that great city, which reigneth over the kings of the earth.
Rev 18:10 Standing afar off for the fear of her torment, saying, Alas, alas, that great city Babylon, that mighty city! for in one hour is thy judgment come.
Rev 18:21 And a mighty angel took up a stone like a great millstone, and cast [it] into the sea, saying, Thus with violence shall that great city Babylon be thrown down, and shall be found no more at all.

Here is another way we can know it is not physical jerusalem beyond what i already showed.
Rev 11:10 And they that dwell upon the earth shall rejoice over them, and make merry, and shall send gifts one to another; because these two prophets tormented them that dwelt on the earth.

Now if these " two witnesses" are in physical jerusalem shutting up the rain and sending fire down. " those that dwell on the earth" are not gonna rejoice and give gifts when they are dead, jerusalem here is always in controversy and the world is not upset when things happen there and give gifts when the trouble makers are dead. If anything most nations are against physical israel and the rest want to own it for themselves.

Anyways the important part above all is that Jesus was not crucified in Jerusalem and while jerusalem was at times compaired to sodom and egypt the original type of egypt and sodom was of the world and Gods deliverance of HIS righteous people out of the wicked world before he destroyed it by fire.- We are now told in hebrews that WE have NO earthly city! Elsewhere in hebrews we are told our city is jerusalem in heaven and that awe are come unto it NOW.

 

[veteran]

You're straining at a gnat, for I think you well know the only city even near where our Lord Jesus was crucified was Jerusalem. And that's the city our Lord was talking about in Rev.11:8, where He was crucified. You are wanting to change the meaing there to something foreign, trying to create an in road for the traditions of men. Go to a Christian Sunday School class (Protestant or Catholic) of small children and ask them what city was Christ crucified in, and the majority of them will say Jerusalem. It's so easy even a child can understand that Scripture. But someone has bewtiched your understanding of it.

 

[whirlwind]

You're straining at a gnat, for I think you well know the only city even near where our Lord Jesus was crucified was Jerusalem. And that's the city our Lord was talking about in Rev.11:8, where He was crucified. You are wanting to change the meaing there to something foreign, trying to create an in road for the traditions of men. Go to a Christian Sunday School class (Protestant or Catholic) of small children and ask them what city was Christ crucified in, and the majority of them will say Jerusalem. It's so easy even a child can understand that Scripture. But someone has bewtiched your understanding of it.

I haven't read through this thread as....I've been there, done that. But the "two witnesses" are MANY of us. The city in which our Savior was crucified was...as written....the great city, which is NOT Jerusalem.

You must look at this spiritually as the verse itself tells us...."the great city, which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also our LORD was crucified." The great city is world-wide. He was crucified for the sins of us...throughout this world to take us out of the evil world, known as Sodom and Egypt.

 

[GodspromisesRyes]

You're straining at a gnat, for I think you well know the only city even near where our Lord Jesus was crucified was Jerusalem. And that's the city our Lord was talking about in Rev.11:8, where He was crucified. You are wanting to change the meaing there to something foreign, trying to create an in road for the traditions of men. Go to a Christian Sunday School class (Protestant or Catholic) of small children and ask them what city was Christ crucified in, and the majority of them will say Jerusalem. It's so easy even a child can understand that Scripture. But someone has bewtiched your understanding of it.

You can ask small children many things and they know the tradition not the scripture. The word of God shows He was not crucified IN jerusalem. The great city is not jerusalem. A fact in scripture is not a " gnat". Their is much scripture about " outside the camp" that is important and not a small gnat.

One cannot " betwitch" your understanding to make you believe what the bible actually says instead of what it does not say lol.

I was blessed to find this last night, i never read commentaries on the bible because often they are dispensational which is terrible desrtructive doctrine but last night i looked up matthew henry's commentary on rev 11 and 12 and read parts of it as i had time. i have never looked at it before and was suprised at what i found.
here is a small portion.
matthew henry btw was in the 17th century.

I. How much was to be measured. 1. The temple; the gospel church in general, whether it be so built, so constituted, as the gospel rule directs, whether it be too narrow or too large, the door too wide or too strait. 2. The altar. That which was the place of the most solemn acts of worship may be put for religious worship in general; whether the church has the true altars, both as to substance and situation: as to substance, whether they take Christ for their altar, and lay down all their offerings there; and in situation, whether the altar be in the holiest; that is, whether they worship God in the Spirit and in truth. 3. The worshippers too must be measured, whether they make God’s glory their end and his word their rule, in all their acts of worship; and whether they come to God with suitable affections, and whether their conversation be as becomes the gospel.


II. What was not to be measured (v. 2), and why it should be left out. 1. What was not to be measured: The court which is without the temple measure it not. Some say that Herod, in the additions made to the temple, built an outer court, and called it the court of the Gentiles. Some tell us that Adrian built the city and an outer court, and called it Aelia, and gave it to the Gentiles. 2. Why was not the outer court measured? This was no part of the temple, according to the model either of Solomon or Zerubbabel, and therefore God would have no regard to it. He would not mark it out for preservation; but as it was designed for the Gentiles, to bring pagan ceremonies and customs and to annex them to the gospel churches, so Christ abandoned it to them, to be used as they pleased; and both that and the city were trodden under foot for a certain timeâ€â€forty and two months, which some would have to be the whole time of the reign of antichrist. Those who worship in the outer court are either such as worship in a false manner or with hypocritical hearts; and these are rejected of God, and will be found among his enemies. 3. From the whole observe, (1.) God will have a temple and an altar in the world, till the end of time. (2.) He has a strict regard to this temple, and observes how every thing is managed in it. (3.) Those who worship in the outer court will be rejected, and only those who worship within the veil accepted. (4.) The holy city, the visible church, is very much trampled upon in the world. But, (5.) The desolations of the church are for a limited time, and for a short time, and she shall be delivered out of all her troubles.

1.) They would not allow them a quiet grave; their bodies were cast out in the open street, the high street of Babylon, or in the high road leading to the city. This city is spiritually called Sodom for monstrous wickedness, and Egypt for idolatry and tyranny; and here Christ in his mystical body has suffered more than in any place in the world. (2.) Their dead bodies were insulted by the inhabitants of the earth, and their death was a matter of mirth and joy to the antichristian world, v. 10. They were glad to be rid of these witnesses, who by their doctrine and example had teased, terrified, and tormented the consciences of their enemies; these spiritual weapons cut wicked men to the heart, and fill them with the greatest rage and malice against the faithful.

 

[veteran]

I haven't read through this thread as....I've been there, done that. But the "two witnesses" are MANY of us. The city in which our Savior was crucified was...as written....the great city, which is NOT Jerusalem.

You must look at this spiritually as the verse itself tells us...."the great city, which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also our LORD was crucified." The great city is world-wide. He was crucified for the sins of us...throughout this world to take us out of the evil world, known as Sodom and Egypt.

Some here seem to be missing that when a symbolic idea is used in the spiritual sense to point to something else, that something else must be the literal part. Symbols in God's Word are always used to point to something else that is literal.

Rev 11:8
8 And their dead bodies shall lie in the street of the great city, which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also our Lord was crucified.
(KJV)

In that Rev.11:8 verse, what is the spiritual or figurative symbol? Easy, it's the phrase "which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt". That's the figurative or spiritual symbol. The word "spiritually" is even said there so you'll know "Sodom and Egypt" is the figure or spiritual symbol being used to point to something else that is literal. So what is the LITERAL part that spiritual figure must point to?

Easy again, "where also our Lord was crucified" is the literal part. Where was Christ crucified? Jerusalem.

Rev 14:8
8 And there followed another angel, saying, Babylon is fallen, is fallen, that great city, because she made all nations drink of the wine of the wrath of her fornication.
(KJV)

Is this literal Babylon? No, because God said He would destroy the historical Babylon, and He did, through His servant Cyrus. Saddam Hussein tried to rebuild geographical Babylon, which is in today's Iraq. Will it rise to fulfill this Rev.14:8 Scripture? No. So I think most would agree our Lord is also using this "Babylon" in Revelation as a figurative symbol for something else. How's the figures been used so far here in Revelation, to a city or to the whole earth? Well, our Lord Jesus already used "Sodom and Egypt" as a spiritual symbol to point to "the great city" did He not? Yes, and that's what the parameter of focus is about so far, i.e., the identity of the "great city". Figurative symbols are being used here to DEFINE "the great city". But let's continue...

Rev 16:19
19 And the great city was divided into three parts, and the cities of the nations fell: and great Babylon came in remembrance before God, to give unto her the cup of the wine of the fierceness of His wrath.
(KJV)

Note how that "great city" is singled out from the other "cities of the nations" on earth. That's another pointer that our Lord is indeed talking about a SPECIFIC city, a specific area on earth. So the idea that this "great Babylon" means all nations doesn't work per that. Even that "great Babylon" figure is being used to point to "the great city", meaning a literal city.

This Rev.16:19 reference is about "the great city" being divided into three parts because of a great earthquake there. That's about the events in the Zechariah 12-14 chapters, which is the land of Jerusalem. The Zechariah 12-14 chapters are specifically about the land and city of Jerusalem in the last days forward, which is where our Lord Jesus returns to earth, literally.

Zech 13:8-9
8 And it shall come to pass, that in all the land, saith the LORD, two parts therein shall be cut off and die; but the third shall be left therein.
9 And I will bring the third part through the fire, and will refine them as silver is refined, and will try them as gold is tried: they shall call on My name, and I will hear them: I will say, It is My people: and they shall say, The LORD is my God.
(KJV)

Now things are going to get really interesting about "the great city" reference:

Rev 21:10-11
10 And he carried me away in the spirit to a great and high mountain, and shewed me that great city, the holy Jerusalem, descending out of heaven from God,
11 Having the glory of God: and her light was like unto a stone most precious, even like a jasper stone, clear as crystal;
(KJV)

Here's the last Revelation reference given for that term "great city". And here, "that great city" is the new Jerusalem, coming down out of Heaven to the earth from God. Is this particular "great city" as the new Jerusalem LITERAL? You bet it is. It's this "holy Jerusalem" that comes down from God out of Heaven that will replace the Jerusalem of today that will be divided from that great earthquake which occurs with Christ's coming. In the previous Rev. examples of "the great city", it is under siege by Christ's enemies for the last days. It represents the area on earth where antichrist will reign over all the kings of the earth. The "great city" term of Revelation is unmistakeably pointing to the area of Jerusalem on earth.

 

[whirlwind]

Now things are going to get really interesting about "the great city" reference:

Rev 21:10-11
10 And he carried me away in the spirit to a great and high mountain, and shewed me that great city, the holy Jerusalem, descending out of heaven from God,
11 Having the glory of God: and her light was like unto a stone most precious, even like a jasper stone, clear as crystal;
(KJV)

Here's the last Revelation reference given for that term "great city". And here, "that great city" is the new Jerusalem, coming down out of Heaven to the earth from God. Is this particular "great city" as the new Jerusalem LITERAL? You bet it is. It's this "holy Jerusalem" that comes down from God out of Heaven that will replace the Jerusalem of today that will be divided from that great earthquake which occurs with Christ's coming. In the previous Rev. examples of "the great city", it is under siege by Christ's enemies for the last days. It represents the area on earth where antichrist will reign over all the kings of the earth. The "great city" term of Revelation is unmistakeably pointing to the area of Jerusalem on earth.

Allow me to address just this part of your post Veteran...I have to get ready for work.

"Great city" as used in [Revelation 21:10], where it refers to Jerusalem is an error in translation. Jerusalem is the holy city, not the great city. In the text it is written...the HOLY CITY.

 

[veteran]

The Greek for "great city" in the manuscripts is 'megas polis', the same reference in Rev.21 as it is in the previous Rev. verses.


Rev 21:10
10 And he carried me away in the spirit to a great and high mountain, and shewed me that great (megas) city (polis), the holy (hagios) Jerusalem (Hierousalem), descending out of heaven from God,
(KJV)

 

[whirlwind]

The Greek for "great city" in the manuscripts is 'megas polis', the same reference in Rev.21 as it is in the previous Rev. verses.


Rev 21:10
10 And he carried me away in the spirit to a great and high mountain, and shewed me that great (megas) city (polis), the holy (hagios) Jerusalem (Hierousalem), descending out of heaven from God,
(KJV)

The word in the TEXT is not great. The word in the text is "holy city Jerusalem."

 

[veteran]

You refer to the Revised version? Nestle's numbers has no number assigned for the word 'megas' ('great' -9999 which means an inserted word), but Strong's number's does (megas-3173 and polis-4172 meaning 'great city'). So even with the Interlinear Bible, at minimum the word 'city' is there in the Greek before the phrase "the holy Jerusalem". The Strong's numbers are based on the Textus Receptus. I'm aware the word "great" is left out of some of the Greek manuscripts. But not the word 'city'. The word 'city' is there even in the Greek manuscripts you refer to, before the 'holy Jerusalem' phrase.

Regardless, that still does not support your position that the city reference in the previous Revelation verses from Rev.11:8 through Rev.18:21 is anything other than a literal city.

 

[whirlwind]

You refer to the Revised version? Nestle's numbers has no number assigned for the word 'megas' ('great' -9999 which means an inserted word), but Strong's number's does (megas-3173 and polis-4172 meaning 'great city'). So even with the Interlinear Bible, at minimum the word 'city' is there in the Greek before the phrase "the holy Jerusalem". The Strong's numbers are based on the Textus Receptus. I'm aware the word "great" is left out of some of the Greek manuscripts. But not the word 'city'. The word 'city' is there even in the Greek manuscripts you refer to, before the 'holy Jerusalem' phrase.

Regardless, that still does not support your position that the city reference in the previous Revelation verses from Rev.11:8 through Rev.18:21 is anything other than a literal city.

I don't use "revised" anything. I only use the King James. I agree, and wrote that the word "city" is there. In the text it is....THE HOLY CITY Jerusalem. My point being..."great city" is incorrect. That was the only time Jerusalem was referred to as the great city and that was an error!

• Revelation 11:8 And their dead bodies shall lie in the street of the GREAT CITY, which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also our Lord was crucified.

This is not Jerualem. Christ was crucified just outside the gates of Jerusalem but this "great city" is not a literal location. For that reason it is referred to as "spiritually" being called "Sodom and Egypt." Which just means wickedness. Egypt is symbolic of the world, worldly lusts and desires and you know what Sodom is all about.....evil, wickedness. That wickedness is what crucified our Lord and is what will kill the witnesses. It is not a place, the great city is Satan's realm....evil.

• Revelation 17:5 And upon her forehead was a name written, MYSTERY, BABYLON THE GREAT, THE MOTHER OF HARLOTS AND ABOMINATIONS OF THE EARTH. And the angel said unto me, "Wherefore didst thou marvel? I will tell thee the mystery of the woman, and of the beast that carrieth her, which hath the seven heads and ten horns. 17:15 And he saith unto me, "The waters which thou sawest, where the whore sitteth, are peoples, and multitudes, and nations, and tongues. 17:18 And the woman which thou sawest is that GREAT CITY, which reigneth over the kings of the earth."

Those verses say it all. The great city is Babylon and she is an abomination. She "sitteth" on the waters which are the people of the world, people of all nations and languages. She is a wicked extension of Satan and the world loves her.

• 18:10 Standing afar off for the fear of her torment, saing, 'Alas, alas, that GREAT CITY BABYLON, that mighty city! for in one hour is thy judgment come.' 16. And saying, 'Alas, alas, that GREAT CITY, that was clothed in fine linen, and purple, and scarlet, and decked with gold, and precious stones, and pearls! 18. And cried when they saw the smoke of her burning, saying, 'What city is like unto this GREAT CITY!' 21.And a mighty angel took up a stone like a great millstone, and cast it into the sea, saying, "thus with violence shall that GREAT CITY Babylon be thrown down, and shall be found no more at all. 23. And the light of a candle shall shine no more at all in thee; and the voice of the bridegroom and of the bride shall be heard no more at all in thee: for thy merchants were the great men of the earth; for by they sorceries were all nations deceived.

The "one hour" when her judgment comes is Satan's hour of temptation. Those that fall for his deception are part of her and share in her punishment. She shall be thrown down and her false religion will never be tolerated again. She will never again deceive.

• 14:8 And there followed another angel, saying, "Babylon is fallen, is fallen, that GREAT CITY, because she made all nations drink of the wine of the wrath of her fornication.
  
  16:19 And the GREAT CITY was divided into three parts, and the cities of the nations fell: and GREAT BABYLON came in remembrance before God, to give unto her the cup of the wine of the fierceness of His wrath.

So, we see that the great city is not Jerusalem and that she is not really a city but is symbolic of all those gathered in her. She is evil, she is Satan's handmaiden, she is an abomination and the world drinks from her cup.

 

[Sinthesis]

You refer to the Revised version? Nestle's numbers has no number assigned for the word 'megas' ('great' -9999 which means an inserted word), but Strong's number's does (megas-3173 and polis-4172 meaning 'great city'). So even with the Interlinear Bible, at minimum the word 'city' is there in the Greek before the phrase "the holy Jerusalem". The Strong's numbers are based on the Textus Receptus. I'm aware the word "great" is left out of some of the Greek manuscripts. But not the word 'city'. The word 'city' is there even in the Greek manuscripts you refer to, before the 'holy Jerusalem' phrase.

Regardless, that still does not support your position that the city reference in the previous Revelation verses from Rev.11:8 through Rev.18:21 is anything other than a literal city.

I don't use "revised" anything. I only use the King James. I agree, and wrote that the word "city" is there. In the text it is....THE HOLY CITY Jerusalem. My point being..."great city" is incorrect. That was the only time Jerusalem was referred to as the great city and that was an error!

Once one abandons the inerrancy of scripture they are opened up and defenseless before all kinds of false doctrine. :verysad
God help you.

 

[Cornelius]

WW is correct, the Great City is not Jerusalem, its Babylon as the rest of Revelation proves over and over again.

 

[veteran]

Since the original 1611 KJV does have "great city" there in Rev.21:10, it means you refer to another later version of the King James Bible, like the Revised Standard.

Rev 21:10
teén pólin teén hagían
<START GREEK>th\n <START GREEK> <START GREEK>po/lin <START GREEK>th\n <START GREEK>a(gi/an
<END GREEK>3588 <END GREEK><9999 > <END GREEK>4172 <END GREEK>3588 <END GREEK>40
that great city, the holy Jerusalem
(Interlinear Transliterated Bible. Copyright (c) 1994 by Biblesoft)


And yes, the Revelation Scripture is using Sodom, Egypt, and Babylon to spiritually refer to the earthly Jerusalem of the last days, but not to the Holy City that is still in Heaven with God today. I never said those spiritual terms apply to God's Holy City the new Jerusalem that is in Heaven still today.

We're supposed to see that difference between today's Jerusalem in a spiritual fallen condition for the tribulation timing vs. God's new Jerusalem that will come down to this earth where the earthly Jerusalem is.

None of the previous Revelation Scripture evidence I showed was even addressed. You just passed that like a 'whirlwind' (no pun intended). And further, the "great city" phrase is in the Greek of some of the texts of Rev.21:10, which you also failed to point out.

So let's not try to confuse the matter by inferring I'm saying the "great city" is God's new Jerusalem that comes down out of Heaven, for I never said that, nor implied that.

So far, you've failed to prove that "great city" reference is NOT about today's earthly Jerusalem.