Romans 11:25
For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.
So what will happen "when the fulness of the Gentiles come in?" Paul says that the blindness (concerning Jesus being their Messiah) will be lifted." What does that mean? It means that they will no longer be blind on this issue! That day has not come, for they (for the most part) are still blind. But there is a day coming:
We have enough on the table without getting into who Israel is.
Rom 9:6 Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel:
Will all of Israel be saved or just a remnant?
Rom 9:27 Esaias also crieth concerning Israel, Though the number of the children of Israel be as the sand of the sea, a remnant shall be saved:
When you say all, you mean only those living at the time. The rest all through history were doomed because of their blindness that God put on them. Right?
John 19:37
And again another scripture saith, They shall look on him whom they pierced.
Again, this has never happened!
Oh my.
Joh 19:36 For
these things were done, that the scripture should be fulfilled, A bone of him shall not be broken.
Joh 19:37 And again another scripture saith, They shall look on him whom they pierced.
Doesn’t get any plainer than that does it? Now go back to the OT passage John was quoting and see what that does to your “futuristic†interpretation.
The will see the one whom they pierced, for "every eye shall see him!" What will happen then?
Romans 11:26
And so all Israel shall be saved...
I didn’t realize faith comes by seeing:
Heb 11:1 Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.
So who is ruling this present age? Paul says that it is the devil.
1Co 2:6 And wisdom we speak among the perfect, and wisdom not of this age, nor of the rulers of this age--of those becoming useless,
1Co 2:7 but we speak the hidden wisdom of God in a secret, that God foreordained before the ages to our glory,
1Co 2:8 which no one of the rulers of this age did know, for if they had known, the Lord of the glory they would not have crucified;
Paul says it is the Jews.
Sorry, but "angel" stars have no constellations!
You really crack me up! Have you never read?
Yes, I read and quoted Is 13:10 which you seemed not to interested in discussing:
Isa 13:10 For the stars of the heavens,
and their constellations, Cause not their light to shine, Darkened hath been the sun in its going out, And the moon causeth not its light to come forth.
If stars are angels then what are their constellations?
Sorry, I was not there when the "Medes destroyed the Babylonians." Neither was you. So neither you nor I know if the moon appeared as blood.
So you do admit Is 13 refers to the destruction of Babylon by the Medes?
I know, by Joel 2, Isaiah 2, and Rev. 6, that the moon will turn to blood some time in my future.
I thought you said it will appear as blood. Do you now take a literal approach and say it will turn to blood? Will it be a solid or liquid?
What does Isaiah say before this verse?
Isaiah 13
6Howl ye; for the day of the LORD is at hand;
This passage is speaking of a time in our future, that will start with the 7th seal. Isaiah 2 and Joel 2 both point to the 6th seal, which WILL BE the fulfillment of these two prophecies.
It is difficult to discuss with someone who keeps flipping positions on the same verses. You said earlier that Is 13:10 refers to the Babylonian destruction, now you say it refers to our future. Which is it.
There were many “days of the Lords†in the OT, Is 13 speaks of one concerning Babylon.
I find your lack of Knowledge of Revelation just as sad.
Matt 24
4 And Jesus answered and said unto them, Take heed that no man deceive you.
5 For many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and shall deceive many.
6And ye shall hear of wars and rumours of wars: see that ye be not troubled: for all these things must come to pass...
This is clearly speaking of a time long ago. Did you not catch what Jesus said next?
"...but the end is not yet."
Very good, and what else did He say:
Luk 21:8 And he said, Take heed that ye be not deceived: for many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ;
and the time draweth near: go ye not therefore after them.
Jesus said many false prophets would come and say the time is near.
Yet we have inspired NT writers telling us exactly that:
1Pe 4:7 But the
end of all things is at hand: be ye therefore sober, and watch unto prayer.
Jam 5:8 Be ye also patient; stablish your hearts:
for the coming of the Lord draweth nigh.
1Jo 2:18 Little children,
it is the last time: and as ye have heard that antichrist shall come, even now are there many antichrists; whereby
we know that it is the last time.
So are Peter, James and John false prophets, or did the Holy Spirit reveal to them that the end was near?
He does not get to speaking of the end until verse 13.
You mean like verse 14?
Mat 24:14 And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.
What did Antiochus Epiphanes do? He slaughtered a pig on the altar, and then erected a stature of Zeus in the Holy of Holies! This was indeed an abomination! Antiochus was a type of the antichrist that is coming, another that will duplicate what Antiochus did, and even go further!
2 Thessalonians 2
4Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.
Sorry, but I do not believe that Titus fulfilled this.
I actually don’t believe Titus fulfilled this either. But where does Paul ever mention “anti-christ’? Where in Revelation is “anti-christ†ever mentioned.
"the religion of the church" and "the government of the state" "shall perish" and "hall be darkened, and brought to nothing!" How funny!
Funny only to those who aren’t familiar with the OT or familiar with Hebrew idioms. Perhaps this will help:
Sir Isaac Newton (1642-1727)
"The figurative language of the prophets is taken from the analogy between the world natural and an empire or kingdom considered as a world politic. Accordingly, the world natural, consisting of heaven and earth, signifies the whole world politic, consisting of thrones and people, or so much of it as is considered in prophecy; and the things in that world signify the analogous things in this. For the heavens and the things therein signify thrones and dignities, and those who enjoy them: and the earth, with the things thereon, the inferior people; and the lowest parts of the earth, called Hades or Hell, the lowest or most miserable part of them. Great earthquakes, and the shaking of heaven and earth, are put for the shaking of kingdoms, so as to distract and overthrow them; the creating of a new heaven and earth, and the passing of an old one; or the beginning and end of a world, for the rise and ruin of a body politic signified thereby. The sun, for the whole species and race of kings, in the kingdoms of the world politic; the moon, for the body of common people considered as the king's wife; the starts, for subordinate princes and great men; or for bishops and rulers of the people of God, when the sun is Christ. Setting of the sun, moon, and stars; darkening the sun, turning the moon into blood, and falling of the stars, for the ceasing of a kingdom." (Observations on the Prophecies, Part i. chap. ii)
How much better a sign if people woke up one morning, and the sun came up, but it was dark!
Depending on what time the sun went dark that morning, they might not wake up at all. Gets awful cold with no sun.
Did you never read?
Rev 6
15 And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains;
16 And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb:
17 For the great day of his wrath is come;
Ever read to whom Jesus said this to in Luke?
Luk 23:28 But Jesus turning unto them said,
Daughters of Jerusalem, weep not for me, but weep for yourselves, and for your children.
Luk 23:29 For, behold, the days are coming, in the which they shall say, Blessed are the barren, and the wombs that never bare, and the paps which never gave suck.
Luk 23:30
Then shall they begin to say to the mountains, Fall on us; and to the hills, Cover us.
Seems pretty specific as to whom Jesus was speaking doesn’t it?
Also fits in with Malachi:
Mal 3:2 But who may abide the day of his coming? and who shall stand when he appeareth? for he is like a refiner's fire, and like fullers' soap:
It is quoted from Is 2:
Lets get some context that is woefully absent in this conversation:
Isa 2:1 The word that Isaiah the son of Amoz saw
concerning Judah and Jerusalem.
Isa 2:19 And they shall go into the holes of the rocks, and into the caves of the earth, for fear of the LORD, and for the glory of his majesty, when he ariseth to shake terribly the earth.
So we have a text dealing with Judah and Jerusalem being quoted by Jesus and John, clearly meant for 1st century Messiah rejecting Jews(Matt 23:39) that you wish to place somewhere in the future. And you call me funny.
I will take the literal meaning as the intent of the author, and forget Lightfoot.
Do you really wish to get into a discussion of how you take Revelation and prophetic language literally?
Quote:
John Gill:
and they shall see the son of man coming in the clouds of heaven, with power and great glory. The Arabic version reads it, "ye shall see", as is expressed by Christ, in Mat_26:64. Where the high priest, chief priests, Scribes, and elders, and the whole sanhedrim of the Jews are spoken to: and as the same persons, namely, the Jews, are meant here as there; so the same coming of the son of man is intended; not his coming at the last day to judgment; though that will be in the clouds of heaven, and with great power and glory; but his coming to bring on, and give the finishing stroke to the destruction of that people, which was a dark and cloudy dispensation to them:
Why go to such an extend to explain away a simple verse? This is hilarious!
Because people like you(and formerly me) are ignorant of Hebrew figures of speech and OT language. Hint: The Bible is a very eastern and Hebraic book, it was not written for those with a 21st century western mind-set despite what Hal Lindsey says.
So when the NT writers write “coming on the clouds†they don’t take it like you do, their mind goes back to the OT and the Hebrew mind set:
Isa 19:1 The burden of Egypt. Behold, the LORD rideth upon a swift cloud, and shall come into Egypt: and the idols of Egypt shall be moved at his presence, and the heart of Egypt shall melt in the midst of it.
Why not let John give us some more information:
Rev 19
11 And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war.
But I thought He was coming on a cloud not a horse. Or perhaps He is coming on a horse-shaped cloud, that way we can still take it literally.
Mat 24:34 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled.
People have been arguing this verse for centuries. We will not solve that argument here. However, let's look again:
33 So likewise ye, when ye shall see all these things, know that it is near, even at the doors.
34 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled.
See all what things?
the sun be darkened
the moon shall not give her light
the stars shall fall from heaven
the powers of the heavens shall be shaken
the sign of the Son of man in heaven:
What is this sign?
For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
Now read again what Jesus said: "So likewise ye, when ye shall see all these things, know that it is near, even at the doors." Therefore, Jesus is speaking directly to whoever will see these signs. What did He say next?
"This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled." What generation? Of course, it has to be the generation that sees these signs. Were these signs seen in 70 AD, or for that matter, any time after Jesus rose from the dead, to today? No, of course not! Jesus has not come back yet!
Then every NT writer who said it was near are false prophets.
How do I know? Because Jesus tells us, if we can read!
29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
What does immediately mean?
I don’t know how you would define immediately. You say words like these are to be taken in God’s time remember? So immediately to God could be hundreds of years to us. You see your problem when you are allowed to switch meaning at your convenience?
There is not even a temple in Jerusalem for Him to set up His throne in! Can you see now why so many people are futurists?
Sure, they ignore scripture or force their literal interpretation on it or usually both.
Eph 2:20 And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone;
Eph 2:21 In whom all the building fitly framed together groweth unto an
holy temple in the Lord:
Eph 2:22 In whom ye also are builded together for an habitation of God through the Spirit.
2Co 6:16 And what agreement hath the temple of God with idols?
for ye are the temple of the living God; as God hath said, I will dwell in them, and walk in them; and I will be their God, and they shall be my people.
2Co 6:17 Wherefore come out from among them, and be ye separate, saith the Lord, and touch not the unclean thing; and I will receive you,
2Co 6:18 And will be a Father unto you, and ye shall be my sons and daughters, saith the Lord Almighty.
Oh, really? Read that verse again:
Behold, I will send you Elijah the prophet before the coming of the great and dreadful day of the LORD
If the great and terrible day of the Lord is still future to us, then it is definitely future to John the baptist, and so this verse is fulfilled: John the baptist certainly came before the great and dreadful day of the Lord. Where then, is the problem? What does it matter if John came 40 years before or 2000 years before: before is before, either way.
We are making progress, most futurist say Elijah has not come yet. Of course they realize when Elijah comes the “day of the Lord†is not far behind. But at least you recognize the Elijah of Malachi was fulfilled in the 1st century.
Mat 3:12 Whose
fan is in his hand, and he will throughly purge his floor, and gather his wheat into the garner; but he will burn up the chaff with unquenchable fire.
I guess we’re still waiting on this as well.
Where did you read in any history book that this took place:
7 The first angel sounded, and ...all green grass was burnt up.
Same question for this:
8 And the second angel sounded, ...and the third part of the sea became blood; And the third part of the creatures which were in the sea, and had life, died; and the third part of the ships were destroyed.
Same question for this:
10 And the third angel sounded, ...and the third part of the waters became wormwood; and many men died of the waters, because they were made bitter.
Same question for this:
12 And the fourth angel sounded, and the third part of the sun was smitten, and the third part of the moon, and the third part of the stars; so as the third part of them was darkened, and the day shone not for a third part of it, and the night likewise.
13 And the sixth angel sounded, ...And the four angels were loosed, which were prepared for an hour, and a day, and a month, and a year, for to slay the third part of men.
I could go on, but it would be pointless.
Now, which history book was it?
Have you learned nothing? Do you not understand the symbolism and the figurative nature of prophetic language?
Of course, a good preterist came come up with an answer for all of these things. However, I prefer to take these things as literal: when God says "all the grass," I believe that is what He meant. When God said, "the third part of men," I believe he meant just that.
You do? Well lets see how literal you take these very simple statements:
Rev 1:1 The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things
which must shortly come to pass; and he sent and signified it by his angel unto his servant John:
Rev 1:3 Blessed is he that readeth, and they that hear the words of this prophecy, and keep those things which are written therein: for
the time is at hand.
Hmm, “shortly come to pass†tell me what is the literal meaning of that phrase?
What secret code is God using when He tells them the events of Revelation are “at hand�
Mat 10:23 But when they persecute you in this city, flee ye into another: for verily I say unto you, Ye shall not have gone over the cities of Israel,
till the Son of man be come.
It seems the obvious meaning of this verse is that Christ would come before the disciples had gone over the cities of Israel. But I’m just a preterist so this can’t be the meaning, so tell me, what is the obvious meaning?
Rev 21:9 And there came unto me one of the seven angels which had the seven vials full of the seven last plagues, and talked with me, saying, Come hither, I will
shew thee the bride, the Lamb's wife.
Rev 21:10 And he carried me away in the spirit to a great and high mountain, and shewed me
that great city, the holy Jerusalem, descending out of heaven from God,
Let see, the angel says he is going to show John “the brideâ€Â, the “Lamb’s wifeâ€Â. But apparently the angel gets distracted and instead shows John the New Jerusalem. So since The New Jerusalem can’t be the bride/Lamb’s wife/Church, what is the super secret meaning of this otherwise plain verse?
I don't know how you read Revelation, but when I read it, I see that God will destroy most of the population of planet earth, before He returns.
Well since Revelation is full of OT symbolism and concepts, I read it with that in mind. I also understand Revelation was not written in English so it helps to have a lexicon handy. That way when I see the word “world†used I can look it up and see what is meant. Try it.
It would be funny to imagine, that the flood of Noah was a prophecied event in our future. We know, since it already happened, that all but 8 people on planet earth died. Now, I wonder how preterists would speak of this imagined prophecy. The futurist would say boldly that a flood was coming, and would wipe out all the air breathing animals in earth, including man. The preterist, on the other hand, would come up with something like, "Don't you read history? Didn't you read about the Johnstown Flood of 1889? This is not a prophecy about the future: it already happened!
What would be even funnier is to approach the Bible in such a manner as to take everything literal especially prophetic language.
In your recording of history you would record these events as literally happening:
Isa 19:1 The burden of Egypt. Behold, the
LORD rideth upon a swift cloud, and shall come into Egypt: and the idols of Egypt shall be moved at his presence, and
the heart of Egypt shall melt in the midst of it.
I bet that was something to see. Oohh, wait, what about this one:
Psa 18:7 Then the earth shook and trembled; the foundations also of the hills moved and were shaken, because he was wroth.
Psa 18:8 There went up a
smoke out of his nostrils, and
fire out of his mouth devoured: coals were kindled by it.
Psa 18:9 He bowed the heavens also, and came down: and darkness was under his feet.
Psa 18:10 And
he rode upon a cherub, and did fly: yea, he did fly upon the wings of the wind.
I wonder why we don’t have this recorded since it literally happened in John’s day:
Isa 40:3 The voice of him that crieth in the wilderness, Prepare ye the way of the LORD, make straight in the desert a highway for our God.
Isa 40:4
Every valley shall be exalted, and every mountain and hill shall be made low: and the crooked shall be made straight, and the rough places plain:
Isa 40:5 And the glory of the LORD shall be revealed, and all flesh shall see it together: for the mouth of the LORD hath spoken it.
Isa 40:6 The voice said, Cry. And he said, What shall I cry?
All flesh is grass, and all the goodliness thereof is as the flower of the field:
I guess we needed you there to record these events. I especially like the “flesh is grass†part.
Yes indeed History would have been much more fun if recorded by futurist such as yourself.
2 Peter 3:10
But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.
I wonder if you believe this also has taken place?
Me along with others:
John Lightfoot (1859)
"That the destruction of Jerusalem is very frequently expressed in Scripture as if it were the destruction of the whole world, Deut. 32:22; "A fire is kindled in mine anger, and shall burn unto the lowest hell, and shall consume the earth with her increase, and set on fire the foundations of the mountains.' Jer. 4:23; 'I beheld the earth, and lo, it was without form, and void; and the heavens, and they had no light,' &c. The discourse there also is concerning the destruction of that nation, Isa. 65:17; 'Behold, I create new heavens and a new earth: and the former shall not be remembered,' &c. And more passages of this sort among the prophets. According to this sense, Christ speaks in this place; and Peter speaks in his Second Epistle, third chapter; and John, in the sixth of the Revelation; and Paul, 2 Cor. 5:17, &c. (vol. 2, pp. 18-19)
"With the same reference it is, that the times and state of things immediately following the destruction of Jerusalem are called 'a new creation,' new heavens,' and 'a new earth.' When should that be? Read the whole chapter; and you will find the Jews rejected and cut off; and from that time is that new creation of the evangelical world among the Gentiles.
Compare 2 Cor. 5:17 and Rev. 21:1,2; where, the old Jerusalem being cut off and destroyed, a new one succeeds; and new heavens and a new earth are created.
2 Peter 3:13: 'We, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth.' The heaven and the earth of the Jewish church and commonwealth must be all on fire, and the Mosaic elements burnt up; but we, according to the promise made to us by Isaiah the prophet, when all these are consumed, look for the new creation of the evangelical state" (vol. 3, p.453)
"That the destruction of Jerusalem and the whole Jewish state is described as if the whole frame of the world were to be dissolved. Nor is it strange, when God destroyed his habitation and city, places once so dear to him, with so direful and sad an overthrow; his own people, whom he accounted of as much or more than the whole world beside, by so dreadful and amazing plagues. Matt. 24:29,30, 'The sun shall be darkened &c. Then shall appear the 'sign of the Son of man,' &c; which yet are said to fall out within that generation, ver. 34. 2 Pet. 3:10, 'The heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat,' &c. Compare with this Deut. 32:22, Heb. 12:26: and observe that by elements are understood the Mosaic elements, Gal 4:9, Coloss. 2:20: and you will not doubt that St. Peter speaks only of the conflagration of Jerusalem, the destruction of the nation, and the abolishing the dispensation of Moses" (vol. 3, p. 452).
John Owen (1721)
'It is evident, then, that in the prophetical idiom and manner of speech, by heavens and earth, the civil and religious state and combination of men in the world, and the men of them, were often understood. So were the heavens and earth that world which then was destroyed by the flood.
' 4. On this foundation I affirm that the heavens and earth here intended in this prophecy of Peter, the coming of the Lord, the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men, mentioned in the destruction of that heaven and earth, do all of them relate, not to the last and final judgment of the world, but to that utter desolation and destruction that was to be made of the Judaical church and state
'First, There is the foundation of the apostle's inference and exhortation, seeing that all these things, however precious they seem, or what value soever any put upon them, shall be dissolved, that is, destroyed; and that in that dreadful and fearful manner before mentioned, in a day of judgment, wrath, and vengeance, by fire and sword; let others mock at the threats of Christ's coming: He will come- He will not tarry; and then the heavens and earth that God Himself planted, -the sun, moon, and stars of the Judaical polity and church, -the whole old world of worship and worshippers, that stand out in their obstinancy against the Lord Christ, shall be sensibly dissolved and destroyed: this we know shall be the end of these things, and that shortly." (Sermon on 2 Peter iii. 11, Works, folio, 1721.).
Jonathan Edwards (1739)
"Thus there was a final end to the Old Testament world: all was finished with a kind of day of judgment, in which the people of God were saved, and His enemies terribly destroyed." (History of Redemption, vol. i. p. 445)
John Brown (1853)
" 'Heaven and earth passing,' understood literally, is the dissolution of the present system of the universe, and the period when that is to take place, is called the 'end of the world.' But a person at all familiar with the phraseology of the Old Testament Scriptures, knows that the dissolution of the Mosaic economy, and the establishment of the Christian, is often spoken of as the removing of the old earth and heavens, and the creation of a new earth and new heavens" (vol. 1, p. 170)
That lexicon I sugested for Revelation, use it on the word "elements" and see what you come up with and where the word is used elsewhere in sccripture.