Who will be "left behind"?

[lecoop]

So then, “glory in the Church†is not forever?

Why would the "glory in the church" have to end, just because the fulness of the Gentile has come in, the church age is closed, and the millennial age begins?

No, the NT writers used the same type of language as the OT writers. See Is.13:10.


Isa 13:10 For the stars of the heavens, and their constellations, Cause not their light to shine, Darkened hath been the sun in its going out, And the moon causeth not its light to come forth.

This describes the fall of Babylon by the hands of the Medes. It is not to be taken literally. Do you really believe stars will land on earth in our future? Consider the size of earth and the size of stars.

No, of course literal stars will not land on the earth. The "stars" in question are angels. However, I believe that the moon will appear as the color of blood, and that the sun will appear darkened: literally.

The events of Matt 24 are past. Many are recorded in Acts.

Sorry, but Where is Jesus, if He came back? :smt043 :smt043 :smt043 (sorry for the humor, but you guys crack me up!) :smt043 :smt043 :smt043

Soon? But you said that is God’s “soon†not man’s soon. Right? Are you now saying soon really means soon? Is this the same “day of the Lord†found in Malachi 4?

Did I say that? I must have forgotton. I do remember saying that when people on the earth see the signs of the 2nd coming, they will not have long to wait! It will be days or weeks, not 2000 years! Yes, it is the same "day of the Lord."

Once again what does “near" mean? You seem to say “near†means one thing in one passage then turn around and say it means something totally different in another passage.

In the passage in question, "So likewise ye, when ye shall see all these things, know that it is near, even at the doors," near means a few days or a few weeks. But what does "it" in this verse mean?

Wasn’t this your time motto: “Since God sees time MUCH differently than we do,â€Â

Quote:
How many years of history had it been up till Jesus came? About 4000! If God chose to call the end of 4000 years of history as "last days," who are we to argue with Him?

You are changing your argument. You were not saying the end of the Old Covenant Age was the last days, you said the entire Church Age was the “last daysâ€Â. Now you say the end of the Old Covenant Age(4000 years) was the ‘last daysâ€Â. Which is it?

You quoted Peter, that Jesus "was manifested at the end of times for your sake," If God considered, after 4000 years of man on earth, that it was "the end of time," who are we to argue? It was sure the end of the age of law, as they knew it.

You quoted Peter again saying, "But the end of all things is at hand..." There is little doubt that Peter thought Jesus would return soon. But then, we know that the HS was the author, and Peter was only the writer. Therefore, again, if God chose to say through Peter, that "the end of all things is at hand," who are we to argue with Him? But we know that with God, a thousand years is as a day, so it has only been two days: wouldn't you too say that is "at hand?"

You are correct, they were asking about the end of the Jewish Age. Isn’t it interesting that they asked that question right after Jesus talked about the destruction of the Temple. Perhaps they were familiar with Daniel’s prophecies.

Undoubtedly they were familiar with Daniel's prophecies. If we were there, and were as familiar with Herod's great temple, as they were, I think we also would have ask as then did, when Jesus said it would be torn down, that not one stone would be left on other. But then, they also asked about the end of the age. Jesus did not really answer the "when" question concerning the destruction of the temple, that I can see. But He did answer the question about the end of the age.

Why the gap? What in Daniel’s prophecy would lead you to believe there is a 2000+ year gap? Daniel’s seventy weeks are based upon the seventy years of captivity. Was there a gap in between the 69th and 70th year of the Babylonian captivity? When Jesus came offering the Kingdom did He know of this gap?

Are you sure that Daniel's 70 weeks are based on the captivity? Are you sure that it was not a prophecy pointing to the very day that Jesus rode into Jerusalem as their passover lamb, exactly 173, 880 days after the decree to rebuild Jerusalem? (exactly 69 weeks of years - not 70.)

Then again, gaps are well known!

Isa 61
"...he hath sent me to bind up the brokenhearted, to proclaim liberty to the captives, and the opening of the prison to them that are bound; To proclaim the acceptable year of the LORD, and the day of vengeance of our God;

Why did Jesus stop reading at the "year of the Lord?" Why did He not go on and read "and the day of vengence?" Of course, it was because "the day of vengence" was to be put off for another 2000 or so years. Therefore, "gaps" do not bother me.

Think about your statement. Why did they believe that? Could it be because that is what Jesus taught?

We don't know, because the bible does not show us. He told then the signs of His coming. John saw the actually coming, as Jesus riding on a white horse. One thing is sure: since Jesus is not here, then He has not yet come.

Not quite, you say he lived in both the beginning of the age and also at the end of it.

That is not what I said. Peter lived under the old covenant before Jesus started His ministry. Peter also lived at the beginning of the church age. The dispensation of law was suspended for the Gentile church. That age ended, and another started. The church age will soon end, and yet another age will start: the millennial reign of Christ!

Coop

 

[Dee Dee Warren]

Sorry, but Where is Jesus, if He came back?

Delaware.

Seriously, if you want to discuss that answer from an orthodox perspective, I would be willing, but that would need to be a thread limited to orthodox eschatologies. I could invite a friend or two to assist as well since my time and health are unpredicatable.

 

[preterist]

Why would the "glory in the church" have to end

Because you said the Church age ends.

No, of course literal stars will not land on the earth. The "stars" in question are angels.

What? Then what are their constellations?

However, I believe that the moon will appear as the color of blood, and that the sun will appear darkened: literally.

Did it literally happen when the Medes destroyed the Babylonians?

13:10 For the stars of heaven and the constellations thereof shall not give their light: the sun shall be darkened in his going forth, and the moon shall not cause her light to shine.

Or when judgment came on Egypt:

Ez.32:7 And when I shall extinguish thee, I will cover the heavens, and make the stars thereof dark; I will cover the sun with a cloud, and the moon shall not give its light.
8 All the bright lights of heaven will I make dark over thee, and set darkness upon thy land, saith the Lord Jehovah.


Or upon the judgment on Edom:

Is. 34: 4 And all the host of heaven shall be dissolved, and the heavens shall be rolled together as a scroll; and all their host shall fade away, as the leaf fadeth from off the vine, and as a fading leaf from the fig-tree.
5 For my sword hath drunk its fill in heaven: behold, it shall come down upon Edom, and upon the people of my curse, to judgment.
Quote:

The events of Matt 24 are past. Many are recorded in Acts.

Sorry, but Where is Jesus, if He came back? (sorry for the humor, but you guys crack me up!)

I find your lack of knowledge concerning history and the Bible not humorous but sad:

Matt 24:4- Acts 13:6-9;

.Josephus says, (War, b. ii. c. 13), that there were many who, pretending to Divine inspiration, deceived the people, leading out numbers of them to the desert, pretending that God would there show them the signs of liberty, meaning redemption from the Roman power: and that an Egyptian false prophet led 30,000 men into the desert, who were almost all cut off by Felix. See Act_21:38. It was a just judgment for God to deliver up that people into the hands of false Christs who had rejected the true one. Soon after our Lord’s crucifixion, Simon Magus appeared, and persuaded the people of Samaria that he was the great power of God, Act_8:9, Act_8:10; and boasted among the Jews that he was the son of God.
2.Of the same stamp and character was also Dositheus, the Samaritan, who pretended that he was the Christ foretold by Moses.
3.About twelve years after the death of our Lord, when Cuspius Fadus was procurator of Judea, arose an impostor of the name of Theudas, who said he was a prophet, and persuaded a great multitude to follow him with their best effects to the river Jordan, which he promised to divide for their passage; and saying these things, says Josephus, he deceived many: almost the very words of our Lord.
4.A few years afterwards, under the reign of Nero, while Felix was procurator of Judea, impostors of this stamp were so frequent that some were taken and killed almost every day. Josephus. Ant. b. xx. c. 4. and 7.

Matt 24:7- Acts 11:28

John Lightfoot:


Besides the seditions of the Jews, made horridly bloody with their mutual slaughter, and other storms of war in the Roman empire from strangers, the commotions of Otho and Vitellius are particularly memorable, and those of Vitellius and Vespasian, whereby not only the whole empire was shaken, and the fortune of the empire changed with the change of the whole world; (they are the words of Tacitus), but Rome itself being made the scene of battle, and the prey of the soldiers, and the Capitol itself being reduced to ashes. Such throes the empire suffered, now bringing forth Vespasian to the throne, the scourge and vengeance of God upon the Jews.


Adam Clarke:

Earthquakes, in divers places - If we take the word σεισμοι from σειω to shake, in the first sense, then it means particularly those popular commotions and insurrections which have already been noted; and this I think to be the true meaning of the word: but if we confine it to earthquakes, there were several in those times to which our Lord refers; particularly one at Crete in the reign of Claudius, one at Smyrna, Miletus, Chios, Samos. See Grotius. One at Rome, mentioned by Tacitus; and one at Laodicea in the reign of Nero, in which the city was overthrown, as were likewise Hierapolis and Colosse. See Tacit. Annal. lib. xii. and lib. xiv. One at Campania, mentioned by Seneca; and one at Rome, in the reign of Galba, mentioned by Suetonius in the life of that emperor. Add to all these, a dreadful one in Judea, mentioned by Josephus (War, b. iv. c. 4). accompanied by a dreadful tempest, violent winds, vehement showers, and continual lightnings and thunders; which led many to believe that these things portended some uncommon calamity.

Matt 24:9; Acts 11:19

Matt 24:11- 2 Cor. 11:13

Albert Barnes

And many false prophets - Many men pretending to be prophets or foretellers of future events. This refers not to the false “Messiahs†of which he had spoken Mat_24:5, but to prophets who should appear during the siege of the city. Of them Josephus says: “The tyrannical zealots who ruled the city suborned “many false prophets†to declare that aid would be given to the people from heaven. This was done to prevent them from attempting to desert, and to inspire confidence in God.†- “Jewish Wars,†b. 6 chapter 5, section 2, 3.

Matt 24:14- Col. 1:6,23; Romans 1:8; Romans 16:26

Matt 24:15

Albert Barnes:

Mat 24:15 -
The abomination of desolation - This is a Hebrew expression, meaning an abominable or hateful destroyer. The Gentiles were all held in abomination by the Jews, Act_10:28. The abomination of desolation means the Roman army, and is so explained by Luk_21:20. The Roman army is further called the “abomination†on account of the images of the emperor, and the eagles, carried in front of the legions, and regarded by the Romans with divine honors.

Matt 24:29

John Lightfoot:
[The sun shall be darkened, etc.] that is, the Jewish heaven shall perish, and the sun and moon of its glory and happiness shall be darkened, and brought to nothing. The sun is the religion of the church; the moon is the government of the state; and the stars are the judges and doctors of both.

Matt 24:30:

John Gill:

and they shall see the son of man coming in the clouds of heaven, with power and great glory. The Arabic version reads it, "ye shall see", as is expressed by Christ, in Mat_26:64. Where the high priest, chief priests, Scribes, and elders, and the whole sanhedrim of the Jews are spoken to: and as the same persons, namely, the Jews, are meant here as there; so the same coming of the son of man is intended; not his coming at the last day to judgment; though that will be in the clouds of heaven, and with great power and glory; but his coming to bring on, and give the finishing stroke to the destruction of that people, which was a dark and cloudy dispensation to them:

Mat 24:34 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled.

I do remember saying that when people on the earth see the signs of the 2nd coming, they will not have long to wait! It will be days or weeks, not 2000 years!

How do you know? You said “near†and “soon†are to be interpreted through God’s time not ours.

Yes, it is the same "day of the Lord."

Mal 4:5 Behold, I will send you Elijah the prophet before the coming of the great and dreadful day of the LORD:

Jesus makes clear John the Baptist was that Elijah:

Mat 11:13 For all the prophets and the law prophesied until John.
Mat 11:14 And if ye will receive it, this is Elias, which was for to come.

Mat 17:10 And his disciples asked him, saying, Why then say the scribes that Elijah must first come?
Mat 17:11 And he answered and said, Elijah indeed cometh, and shall restore all things:
Mat 17:12 but I say into you, that Elijah is come already, and they knew him not, but did unto him whatsoever they would. Even so shall the Son of man also suffer of them.
Mat 17:13 Then understood the disciples that he spake unto them of John the Baptist.


That puts the “day of the Lord†in the time frame of John the Baptist. Fits perfectly with an AD70 fulfillment.

In the passage in question, "So likewise ye, when ye shall see all these things, know that it is near, even at the doors," near means a few days or a few weeks.

Actually a few years would be more accurate. As noted by pre-darby theologians:

Albert Barnes:

Mat 24:33 -
So likewise ye ... - In the same manner, when you see what I have predicted the “signs†around Jerusalem - then know that its destruction is at hand,
Is near - Luke says Luk_21:28, “your redemption draweth nigh, and Luk_21:31 the kingdom of God is nigh at hand.†Your deliverance from the dangers that threaten the city approaches, and the kingdom of God will be set up in the earth; or your everlasting redemption from sin and death will come at the day of judgment, and his eternal kingdom will be established in the heavens.

John Gill:

Mat 24:33 - So likewise ye, when ye shall see all these things,.... That are mentioned above, relating to the signs of the destruction of the temple and city, and the destruction itself, with all those several things that should directly take place upon it; this is an accommodation of the above parable, similitude, or comparison:

know that it is near, even at the doors; meaning, either that "he is near", as the Ethiopic version reads it, the son of man is near, even at the doors; or as the Vulgate Latin renders it, "in the gates", or "doors", and so does Munster's Hebrew Gospel; and signifies, that he was already come; for to be in the doors, or within the gates, is more than to be at the doors, or at the gates: and thus the fig tree putting forth its leaves, is a sign that summer is not only nigh, but is already come, even that part of it we call spring; for the Scripture divides the whole year only into two parts, summer and winter; so these calamities and desolations on the Jews, were a sign that the son of man was come, was in the gates, displaying his power and his glory: or the redemption and deliverance of the people of God was at hand, from the persecutions of the Jews; for till the destruction of Jerusalem, the persecutions of the Christians were chiefly from the Jews, or occasioned by them; but now, they being destroyed, the summer of deliverance was at hand: or else the kingdom of God, or a more enlarged state of the Gospel dispensation was near; the winter of the legal dispensation was over, the spring of the Gospel dispensation was come, through the preaching of John the Baptist, Christ and his apostles; and now the summer of it was at hand, through the general spread of it, all over the Gentile world.

But what does "it" in this verse mean?

Mat 24:27 For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.

You quoted Peter, that Jesus "was manifested at the end of times for your sake," If God considered, after 4000 years of man on earth, that it was "the end of time," who are we to argue? It was sure the end of the age of law, as they knew it.

Correct, but you said this regarding Peter:

Peter was living in the beginning of the age of the Gentile church. If the Holy Spirit chose to call those days, "the end of all things," that is His choice.

Here you equated the “end of all things†as the Church Age, not the Old Covenant Age. Now you say it was the end of the age of Law. So which is it?

There is little doubt that Peter thought Jesus would return soon.

Bingo!!!

But then, we know that the HS was the author, and Peter was only the writer.

Bingo!! Again.

So we have Peter under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit telling his readers the coming of the Lord was soon to happen. I rest my case.

Therefore, again, if God chose to say through Peter, that "the end of all things is at hand," who are we to argue with Him?

I’m not, the futurists are.

But we know that with God, a thousand years is as a day, so it has only been two days: wouldn't you too say that is "at hand?"

So here we go again, now we are back to “near†and “at hand†don’t really mean what they say. Yet you just said this:

In the passage in question, "So likewise ye, when ye shall see all these things, know that it is near, even at the doors," near means a few days or a few weeks.

So does it mean a few days or weeks or does it mean 1000s of years? Or do you just filter the meaning through your view of eschatology to determine its meaning?

But then, they also asked about the end of the age. Jesus did not really answer the "when" question concerning the destruction of the temple, that I can see. But He did answer the question about the end of the age.

The answer is the same for both. That is how the disciples understood it.

Mar 13:4 Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign when all these things shall be fulfilled?

Are you sure that Daniel's 70 weeks are based on the captivity?

No. Now that I think about it I think I might have it mixed up. I’ll research that.

Quote:
Think about your statement. Why did they believe that? Could it be because that is what Jesus taught?


We don't know, because the bible does not show us.

The Bible doesn’t show us what?

The disciples were given signs to when the end would come. 30 years after Christ we have the NT writers saying the end was near. It is clear then that the signs were fulfilled or being fulfilled.

Quote:
Not quite, you say he lived in both the beginning of the age and also at the end of it.


That is not what I said.

You said:

1. He considered the early days of the church as " the last days." If the year of 33AD was " the last days,"

2. Peter was living in the beginning of the age of the Gentile church. If the Holy Spirit chose to call those days, "the end of all things," that is His choice.

You said the beginning of the Church Age was occurring in AD33 yet you also call it the end of the age.

The dispensation of law was suspended for the Gentile church.

Suspended? Does that mean God will go back to it in the future?

BTW, DO you attend Sheridan Road Baptist??

Delaware.

Seriously, if you want to discuss that answer from an orthodox perspective, I would be willing, but that would need to be a thread limited to orthodox eschatologies. I could invite a friend or two to assist as well since my time and health are unpredicatable.

http://www.christianforums.net/viewtopic.php?t=27148

5 - Respect each other's opinions. Address issues, not persons or personalities.

6 - No Bashing of other members. Give other members the respect you would want them to give yourself.

 

[Vic C.]

Where is she breaking any rules and what did I ask about letting the Mods do the modding? :-?

 

[preterist]

Where is she breaking any rules and what did I ask about letting the Mods do the modding? :-?

I would like nothing to do with you and ask that you do not address me.

I will rest in the satisfaction that you are proving my statements about the cultic mentality of some hyperpreterists

I will not address you again. I ask you not to address me again. If you do, your own obsessive need to parade your heresy will be duly noted by all.

Come on Vic, if I had said these things you would have removed my post and threatened banishment.

Do these men sound like Cult leaders and heretics to you:


http://www.sovereigngracebible.org/

http://www.bereanbiblechurch.org/home.htm


BTW, I saw you posted an article by Gregg Strawridge, I don't know anything about him but I saw where he was interviewed here:

http://www.covenantradio.com/

 

[Dee Dee Warren]

Delaware.

Seriously, if you want to discuss that answer from an orthodox perspective, I would be willing, but that would need to be a thread limited to orthodox eschatologies. I could invite a friend or two to assist as well since my time and health are unpredicatable.

Leecoop my offer still stands. Or perhaps you would like to come on Paltalk one night for a friendly exchange.

Your question though "where is Jesus if he came back" betrays though a fundamental misunderstanding of the orthodox position, though a valid one to a heterodox (Hymenean) one, I want you to be certain that there is a difference, and in the world outside of the Internet, you would likely never run into a Hymenaean proponent but have a decent chance running into the historical preterist view (i.e. RC Sproul Jr, Hank Hanegraaf and the like)

To ask such a question of an orthodox preterist would be akin to asking what the colour blue tastes like. It is a category error. A nonpreterist (at least at the time of the writing of this article, I am uncertain if he is a preterist now) wrote this humourous piece when watching a frustrating exchange between some futurists and some preterists.

I post here:

Purple Cows and Eschatology
by Automatthew

A Modern Parable of Eschatological Presuppositions

Introductory Note from Dee Dee: I need to set the backdrop for this clever parable. Often in debates, preterists find themselves faced with question-begging of the most extreme sort from futurist opponents who assume their position and point to their assumptions as proof crying, Ah ha! See it didn't happen that way so you are WRONG! followed by a general round of back-patting and self-congratulatory belly-bopping. In one such debate, Automatthew (who at the time, and I believe even now is not a preterist) chimed in and made the following observation out of sheer frustion. I have reproduced the post just as it occured. Enjoy! The "this forum" referenced in the article is not THIS forum but the forum upon which this was originally posted years ago.

That's clearly not going to happen in this forum, as the dispensationalists insist on begging the question of the nature of the events the prophecies are describing.
Analogy:

Someone who is considered an Authority prophesies a certain event to come. The prophecy reads, in part, "On the day of the great event, a purple cow's hide will be displayed for everyone to see."

Two schools of interpretation soon arise with very different ideas of the prophecy's meaning; on one side, the Globalists; on the other, the Sacrificialists. The Globalists believe that, on the day in question, the whole sky over the entire world will have the appearance of purple fur. The Sacrificialists believe that a purple cow will be sacrificed and flayed, and the hide will be nailed to the roof of a Volkswagen Beetle and driven to the town square "for everyone to see." The Globalists hold that the day of the great event has not yet arrived, but the Sacrificialists believe that the day has long since come and gone.

Now I, the ignorant observer, cannot judge between the interpretations because I am not sufficiently familiar with the prophecy or the history of the society. But I can fairly judge whether or not the arguments of each side are being addressed by the other side. Here's how the Globalists are arguing:

G: "How can the Great Event have already happened? Wouldn't you remember if the sky had turned into purple fur in your lifetime? And wouldn't you expect that at least one historian would write at least an entry in his diary saying, "Ho hum, boring day. Oh, yes, the sky did briefly turn purple and furry today."?

S: "No, you don't understand. The great event that was prophesied did not involve a purple, furry sky. I can say that the great event has already passed because we believe that the prophecy concerns the sacrifice of a purple cow and the subsequent display of the cow's hide. This happened in 1963, shortly after the Beatles first number 1 single."

G: "So you think that the Great Event took place within living memory, in the 1960s? So why didn't the Beatles write a song about it? This is the Great Event, you know. Why wasn't the whole world talking about it?"

S: "Because the sacrifice and flaying of a purple cow in Abilene, Texas, is not considered to be a noteworthy event in most of the rest of the world. Maybe PETA would be interested, but who else?"

G: "But, dude, the Great Event would have been seen by the whole world, because the whole sky turned purple and furry. Don't you remember how the prophecy says "a cow's hide will be displayed for all to see?"

In short, the Globalists are not just begging a question, they're begging the root question, i.e. "What does the prophecy say is going to happen."

Dispensationalists: You're begging the root question. If the preterists' interpretation of Olivet and Revelation is correct, then asking why the whole world didn't realize that the prophecies had been fulfilled is foolish. "But their interpretation is not correct," you say. That's begging the question.

The original can be found here:

http://www.preteristsite.com/docs/purplecow.html

 

[lecoop]

Preterist said,
[quote:13226]Quote by lecoop
Why would the "glory in the church" have to end

Because you said the Church age ends. [/quote:13226]

Ephesians 3:21
Unto him be glory in the church by Christ Jesus throughout all ages, world without end. Amen.

Preterist, what is this verse really saying? It starts out saying, "unto HIM be glory..." Jesus is the one who is being glorified here. Where is He being glorified? of course, in the church. I doubt if you would find anyone glorifying Jesus in a tavern. Question: when will a believer ever stop giving glory to Jesus? When we get to heaven, will we stop then? Of course not! But this present age will end. Did you ever read:

Romans 11:25
For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.

So what will happen "when the fulness of the Gentiles come in?" Paul says that the blindness (concerning Jesus being their Messiah) will be lifted." What does that mean? It means that they will no longer be blind on this issue! That day has not come, for they (for the most part) are still blind. But there is a day coming:

John 19:37
And again another scripture saith, They shall look on him whom they pierced.

Again, this has never happened! All Israel, for the most part, are blind concerning Israel. But again, the day is coming: The will see the one whom they pierced, for "every eye shall see him!" What will happen then?

Romans 11:26
And so all Israel shall be saved...

Again, this has not happened! So what happens to the Gentile church when the fulness of the Gentiles will have come in?

Please note this mystery:

Rev 10
7 But in the days of the voice of the seventh angel, when he shall begin to sound, the mystery of God should be finished, as he hath declared to his servants the prophets.

What is the "mystery?"

Romans 11:25
For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.

Col. 1
26 Even the mystery which hath been hid from ages and from generations, but now is made manifest to his saints:
27 To whom God would make known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles; which is Christ in you, the hope of glory:

What happens when this mystery is finished?"

Rev 11
15 And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.
16 And the four and twenty elders, which sat before God on their seats, fell upon their faces, and worshipped God,
17 Saying, We give thee thanks, O LORD God Almighty, which art, and wast, and art to come; because thou hast taken to thee thy great power, and hast reigned.

Indeed, what happens when the mystery of the fulness of the Gentiles has come in? The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.

Yet Paul said that Satan is the God if this present age!

2 Corinthians 4:4
In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not,...

So who is ruling this present age? Paul says that it is the devil. All one has to do is look around, and this becomes evident! Again, this show that these things are FUTURE to us today. the 7th angel has NOT sounded, and the kingdoms of this world have not YET become the kingdoms of our Lord. BUT that day is coming soon. The next thing that will happen is this: thou hast taken to thee thy great power..." Why would Jesus "take unto" Himself" His great power?" There is only one reason: the church had the power, and when the age of the church was finished, Jesus took His great power back to Himself. Once again, this shows that these events are future to us today.

[quote:13226]Coop said
No, of course literal stars will not land on the earth. The "stars" in question are angels.

What? Then what are their constellations?

Quote:
However, I believe that the moon will appear as the color of blood, and that the sun will appear darkened: literally.

Did it literally happen when the Medes destroyed the Babylonians?

13:10 For the stars of heaven and the constellations thereof shall not give their light: the sun shall be darkened in his going forth, and the moon shall not cause her light to shine. [/quote:13226]

Sorry, but "angel" stars have no constellations! :smt043 :smt043 :smt043

You really crack me up! Have you never read?

Revelation 9:1
And the fifth angel sounded, and I saw a star fall from heaven unto the earth: and to him was given the key of the bottomless pit.

That will be the day, when we see a real star, with its constellation, receive a Key to the bottomless pit! No, in this case, the "star" is an angel.

Sorry, I was not there when the "Medes destroyed the Babylonians." Neither was you. So neither you nor I know if the moon appeared as blood. However, I know, by Joel 2, Isaiah 2, and Rev. 6, that the moon will turn to blood some time in my future.

What does Isaiah say before this verse?

Isaiah 13
6Howl ye; for the day of the LORD is at hand;

This passage is speaking of a time in our future, that will start with the 7th seal. Isaiah 2 and Joel 2 both point to the 6th seal, which WILL BE the fulfillment of these two prophecies.


Coop

 

[lecoop]

Dee Dee Waren said

Your question though "where is Jesus if he came back" betrays though a fundamental misunderstanding of the orthodox position, though a valid one to a heterodox (Hymenean) one, I want you to be certain that there is a difference, and in the world outside of the Internet, you would likely never run into a Hymenaean proponent but have a decent chance running into the historical preterist view (i.e. RC Sproul Jr, Hank Hanegraaf and the like)

Sorry Dee Dee, but I have a very simple mind. When I read a verse that says I will meet Him in the air, and "so shall you ever be with the Lord," I just believe it for what it says. I have not yet met Him in the air! And if He is here physically, I think my question still needs answering: where is He?

But, as I said, I have a simple mind, and mine has never gone where yours has gone: perhaps you can explain these simple verses away. I can not.

Coop

 

[Dee Dee Warren]

Coop I didn't simply dismiss what you had to say in the manner you have with me. But that is fine, I don't pursue unwelcome conversations, so I won't bother you again. Sorry to intrude. I wish you blessings in your pursuit of truth. BTW, I wasn't discussin the Thessalonians passage. I do confess our physical resurrection and meeting of Jesus in the air. I do not hold that Matthew and Thessalonians are about the same event.

 

[lecoop]

Preterist said,

I find your lack of knowledge concerning history and the Bible not humorous but sad:

I find your lack of Knowledge of Revelation just as sad.



Matt 24
4 And Jesus answered and said unto them, Take heed that no man deceive you.
5 For many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and shall deceive many.
6And ye shall hear of wars and rumours of wars: see that ye be not troubled: for all these things must come to pass...

This is clearly speaking of a time long ago. Did you not catch what Jesus said next?

"...but the end is not yet."

What point is Jesus making here? Only that all these things are not signs of the end; that He, Jesus, has not yet started speaking of the end; He does not get to speaking of the end until verse 13. Therefore, all these things are history to us now:

nation shall rise against nation
kingdom against kingdom
there shall be famines
there shall be pestilences
there shall be earthquakes

Jesus said that "these are the beginning of sorrows." He is in no way saying that these are end time events. These same events line up with the red horse and seal two, "the great sword" that causes war, the black horse and seal three, that causes famines, and the pale horse and seal 4, that causes death. These three have been riding together since Jesus broke these seals, way back in about 33 AD.

Matt 24:14- Col. 1:6,23; Romans 1:8; Romans 16:26
Matt 24:15
Albert Barnes:
Mat 24:15 -
The abomination of desolation - This is a Hebrew expression, meaning an abominable or hateful destroyer. The Gentiles were all held in abomination by the Jews, Act_10:28. The abomination of desolation means the Roman army, and is so explained by Luk_21:20. The Roman army is further called the “abomination†on account of the images of the emperor, and the eagles, carried in front of the legions, and regarded by the Romans with divine honors.

What did Antiochus Epiphanes do? He slaughtered a pig on the altar, and then erected a stature of Zeus in the Holy of Holies! This was indeed an abomination! Antiochus was a type of the antichrist that is coming, another that will duplicate what Antiochus did, and even go further!

2 Thessalonians 2
4Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.

Sorry, but I do not believe that Titus fulfilled this.

Matt 24:29
John Lightfoot:
[The sun shall be darkened, etc.] that is, the Jewish heaven shall perish, and the sun and moon of its glory and happiness shall be darkened, and brought to nothing. The sun is the religion of the church; the moon is the government of the state; and the stars are the judges and doctors of both.

"the religion of the church" and "the government of the state" "shall perish" and "hall be darkened, and brought to nothing!" How funny! And this is suppose to be a sign of Jesus coming! How much better a sign if people woke up one morning, and the sun came up, but it was dark! How much more a sign, if at the same time, the moon appeared as blood! Since the light of the moon is only a reflection of the sun, this would be some sign! People would take notice. Will they? Did you never read?

Rev 6
15 And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains;
16 And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb:
17 For the great day of his wrath is come;

It seems that they knew what Joel said in chapter 2, and what Isaiah said in chapter 2, and seeing these signs that had been prophecied, KNEW that the day of the Lord was about to start. Therefore, I will take the literal meaning as the intent of the author, and forget Lightfoot.


Matt 24:30:

30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

John Gill:

and they shall see the son of man coming in the clouds of heaven, with power and great glory. The Arabic version reads it, "ye shall see", as is expressed by Christ, in Mat_26:64. Where the high priest, chief priests, Scribes, and elders, and the whole sanhedrim of the Jews are spoken to: and as the same persons, namely, the Jews, are meant here as there; so the same coming of the son of man is intended; not his coming at the last day to judgment; though that will be in the clouds of heaven, and with great power and glory; but his coming to bring on, and give the finishing stroke to the destruction of that people, which was a dark and cloudy dispensation to them:

Why go to such an extend to explain away a simple verse? This is hilarious! What did Jesus say? "They shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven..."

What if this means just what it says? Why does it have to have some secret meaning? If so, who is to say what that secret meaning is? Should we go with Gill? Why not let John give us some more information:

Rev 19
11 And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war.
12 His eyes were as a flame of fire, and on his head were many crowns; and he had a name written, that no man knew, but he himself.
13 And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God.
14 And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.
15 And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.
16 And he hath on his vesture and on his thigh a name written, KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS.
17 And I saw an angel standing in the sun; and he cried with a loud voice, saying to all the fowls that fly in the midst of heaven, Come and gather yourselves together unto the supper of the great God;
18 That ye may eat the flesh of kings, and the flesh of captains, and the flesh of mighty men, and the flesh of horses, and of them that sit on them, and the flesh of all men, both free and bond, both small and great.
19 And I saw the beast, and the kings of the earth, and their armies, gathered together to make war against him that sat on the horse, and against his army.
20 And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone.
21 And the remnant were slain with the sword of him that sat upon the horse, which sword proceeded out of his mouth: and all the fowls were filled with their flesh.

I have one simple question: do you think these people saw Him? So why try to make Matt 24:30 have some hidden meaning, when the obvious meaning is clear: when He comes, people will SEE Him!



Mat 24:34 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled.

People have been arguing this verse for centuries. We will not solve that argument here. However, let's look again:

33 So likewise ye, when ye shall see all these things, know that it is near, even at the doors.
34 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled.

See all what things?

the sun be darkened
the moon shall not give her light
the stars shall fall from heaven
the powers of the heavens shall be shaken
the sign of the Son of man in heaven:

What is this sign?

For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.

Now read again what Jesus said: "So likewise ye, when ye shall see all these things, know that it is near, even at the doors." Therefore, Jesus is speaking directly to whoever will see these signs. What did He say next?
"This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled." What generation? Of course, it has to be the generation that sees these signs. Were these signs seen in 70 AD, or for that matter, any time after Jesus rose from the dead, to today? No, of course not! Jesus has not come back yet!

[quote:1af50]Quote: lecoop
I do remember saying that when people on the earth see the signs of the 2nd coming, they will not have long to wait! It will be days or weeks, not 2000 years!

How do you know? You said “near†and “soon†are to be interpreted through God’s time not ours. [/quote:1af50]

How do I know? Because Jesus tells us, if we can read!

29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

What does immediately mean? It means the people that see these signs will not have long to wait: perhaps hours or a few days. It should be obvious that this has never happened, for Jesus has not yet set up His throne in Jerusalem. Oh! Wait! There is not even a temple in Jerusalem for Him to set up His throne in! Can you see now why so many people are futurists?

Mal 4:5 Behold, I will send you Elijah the prophet before the coming of the great and dreadful day of the LORD:

Jesus makes clear John the Baptist was that Elijah:

Mat 11:13 For all the prophets and the law prophesied until John.
Mat 11:14 And if ye will receive it, this is Elias, which was for to come.

Mat 17:10 And his disciples asked him, saying, Why then say the scribes that Elijah must first come?
Mat 17:11 And he answered and said, Elijah indeed cometh, and shall restore all things:
Mat 17:12 but I say into you, that Elijah is come already, and they knew him not, but did unto him whatsoever they would. Even so shall the Son of man also suffer of them.
Mat 17:13 Then understood the disciples that he spake unto them of John the Baptist.


That puts the “day of the Lord†in the time frame of John the Baptist. Fits perfectly with an AD70 fulfillment.

Oh, really? Read that verse again:
Behold, I will send you Elijah the prophet before the coming of the great and dreadful day of the LORD

If the great and terrible day of the Lord is still future to us, then it is definitely future to John the baptist, and so this verse is fulfilled: John the baptist certainly came before the great and dreadful day of the Lord. Where then, is the problem? What does it matter if John came 40 years before or 2000 years before: before is before, either way.


coop.

 

[lecoop]

Preterist,

I guess you know that two can play this fun game! :-D

Where did you read in any history book that this took place:

7 The first angel sounded, and ...all green grass was burnt up.

Same question for this:

8 And the second angel sounded, ...and the third part of the sea became blood; And the third part of the creatures which were in the sea, and had life, died; and the third part of the ships were destroyed.

Same question for this:

10 And the third angel sounded, ...and the third part of the waters became wormwood; and many men died of the waters, because they were made bitter.

Same question for this:

12 And the fourth angel sounded, and the third part of the sun was smitten, and the third part of the moon, and the third part of the stars; so as the third part of them was darkened, and the day shone not for a third part of it, and the night likewise.

13 And the sixth angel sounded, ...And the four angels were loosed, which were prepared for an hour, and a day, and a month, and a year, for to slay the third part of men.

I could go on, but it would be pointless.

Now, which history book was it?


Of course, a good preterist came come up with an answer for all of these things. However, I prefer to take these things as literal: when God says "all the grass," I believe that is what He meant. When God said, "the third part of men," I believe he meant just that.

I don't know how you read Revelation, but when I read it, I see that God will destroy most of the population of planet earth, before He returns. This is why I am a futurist: I know these things did not happen back then. I suspect this is why most futurists are futurists.

It would be funny to imagine, that the flood of Noah was a prophecied event in our future. We know, since it already happened, that all but 8 people on planet earth died. Now, I wonder how preterists would speak of this imagined prophecy. The futurist would say boldly that a flood was coming, and would wipe out all the air breathing animals in earth, including man. The preterist, on the other hand, would come up with something like, "Don't you read history? Didn't you read about the Johnstown Flood of 1889? This is not a prophecy about the future: it already happened! :smt043 :smt043 :smt043


However, we do read of another type of destruction: fire!

1 Cor 3
13 Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is.

2 Peter 3:10
But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.

I wonder if you believe this also has taken place?


Coop

 

[lecoop]

Coop I didn't simply dismiss what you had to say in the manner you have with me. But that is fine, I don't pursue unwelcome conversations, so I won't bother you again. Sorry to intrude. I wish you blessings in your pursuit of truth. BTW, I wasn't discussin the Thessalonians passage. I do confess our physical resurrection and meeting of Jesus in the air. I do not hold that Matthew and Thessalonians are about the same event.

Sorry, Dee Dee. I thought that you had addressed your post to "Delaware," so I did not give it much thought. However, I see now that you were trying to get a little humor in this much to heavy thread, and it went right over my head! But why Delaware? Why not Mecca? :-D

Please don't take what I wrote as me saying in any way that I did not welcome your input! "au contraire!" It just means that I like to keep things fun. I agree with you about Matthew and Thessalonians. They are not speaking of the same thing. (this is probably the only place we agree!)Where do you believe the meeting in the air will be, in respect to the book of Revelation?

You said, "Your question though "where is Jesus if he came back" betrays though a fundamental misunderstanding of the orthodox position..."

This may well be true, but is also shows remarkable understanding of the book of Revelation. : You see, I know most of this great book is still in our future.

Coop

 

[lecoop]

BTW, DO you attend Sheridan Road Baptist??

No!

Coop

 

[Dee Dee Warren]

Hey coop I am off to bed, but I wanted to just post that I saw your post and greatly appreciate it. I have a whacky sense of humour... it is a long-standing joke of mine that "Delaware" is the answer to any location question. If you saw Wayne's World it might make more sense. Anyone who has usually is very grateful they did not have a mouth full of soda when they read something like that. I forget that this isn't my "home turf" as it were and that everyone is not used to my offbeat humour.

Post again tomorrow. Have a blessed night.

 

[Vic C.]

Coop wrote:

Sorry, Dee Dee. I thought that you had addressed your post to "Delaware,"

At first I thought Pret thought she was calling you Delaware; hence his attempt to moderate this forum. Now I see he is digging up something Dee Dee said to him days ago!

Pret, you two have a "history" and it's not pretty. She had every right to a preemptive warning that you not harass her. Let it go and lets move on. No need to reply.

 

[Dee Dee Warren]

I never realized how badly my (natural to me) joke would get misunderstood! : Vic, thanks - you can rest assured on your forum if I say I will not be interacting with anyone I will keep my word on that. This is your forum, and I respect that, and wouldn't have drag-out fights that are not appropriate.

 

[preterist]

Romans 11:25
For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.

So what will happen "when the fulness of the Gentiles come in?" Paul says that the blindness (concerning Jesus being their Messiah) will be lifted." What does that mean? It means that they will no longer be blind on this issue! That day has not come, for they (for the most part) are still blind. But there is a day coming:

We have enough on the table without getting into who Israel is.

Rom 9:6 Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel:

Will all of Israel be saved or just a remnant?

Rom 9:27 Esaias also crieth concerning Israel, Though the number of the children of Israel be as the sand of the sea, a remnant shall be saved:

When you say all, you mean only those living at the time. The rest all through history were doomed because of their blindness that God put on them. Right?

John 19:37
And again another scripture saith, They shall look on him whom they pierced.

Again, this has never happened!

Oh my.

Joh 19:36 For these things were done, that the scripture should be fulfilled, A bone of him shall not be broken.
Joh 19:37 And again another scripture saith, They shall look on him whom they pierced.

Doesn’t get any plainer than that does it? Now go back to the OT passage John was quoting and see what that does to your “futuristic†interpretation.

The will see the one whom they pierced, for "every eye shall see him!" What will happen then?

Romans 11:26
And so all Israel shall be saved...

I didn’t realize faith comes by seeing:


Heb 11:1 Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.

So who is ruling this present age? Paul says that it is the devil.

1Co 2:6 And wisdom we speak among the perfect, and wisdom not of this age, nor of the rulers of this age--of those becoming useless,
1Co 2:7 but we speak the hidden wisdom of God in a secret, that God foreordained before the ages to our glory,
1Co 2:8 which no one of the rulers of this age did know, for if they had known, the Lord of the glory they would not have crucified;

Paul says it is the Jews.

Sorry, but "angel" stars have no constellations!

You really crack me up! Have you never read?

Yes, I read and quoted Is 13:10 which you seemed not to interested in discussing:

Isa 13:10 For the stars of the heavens, and their constellations, Cause not their light to shine, Darkened hath been the sun in its going out, And the moon causeth not its light to come forth.

If stars are angels then what are their constellations?

Sorry, I was not there when the "Medes destroyed the Babylonians." Neither was you. So neither you nor I know if the moon appeared as blood.

So you do admit Is 13 refers to the destruction of Babylon by the Medes?

I know, by Joel 2, Isaiah 2, and Rev. 6, that the moon will turn to blood some time in my future.

I thought you said it will appear as blood. Do you now take a literal approach and say it will turn to blood? Will it be a solid or liquid?

What does Isaiah say before this verse?

Isaiah 13
6Howl ye; for the day of the LORD is at hand;

This passage is speaking of a time in our future, that will start with the 7th seal. Isaiah 2 and Joel 2 both point to the 6th seal, which WILL BE the fulfillment of these two prophecies.

It is difficult to discuss with someone who keeps flipping positions on the same verses. You said earlier that Is 13:10 refers to the Babylonian destruction, now you say it refers to our future. Which is it.

There were many “days of the Lords†in the OT, Is 13 speaks of one concerning Babylon.

I find your lack of Knowledge of Revelation just as sad.


Matt 24
4 And Jesus answered and said unto them, Take heed that no man deceive you.
5 For many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and shall deceive many.
6And ye shall hear of wars and rumours of wars: see that ye be not troubled: for all these things must come to pass...

This is clearly speaking of a time long ago. Did you not catch what Jesus said next?

"...but the end is not yet."

Very good, and what else did He say:

Luk 21:8 And he said, Take heed that ye be not deceived: for many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and the time draweth near: go ye not therefore after them.

Jesus said many false prophets would come and say the time is near.

Yet we have inspired NT writers telling us exactly that:

1Pe 4:7 But the end of all things is at hand: be ye therefore sober, and watch unto prayer.

Jam 5:8 Be ye also patient; stablish your hearts: for the coming of the Lord draweth nigh.

1Jo 2:18 Little children, it is the last time: and as ye have heard that antichrist shall come, even now are there many antichrists; whereby we know that it is the last time.

So are Peter, James and John false prophets, or did the Holy Spirit reveal to them that the end was near?

He does not get to speaking of the end until verse 13.

You mean like verse 14?

Mat 24:14 And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.

What did Antiochus Epiphanes do? He slaughtered a pig on the altar, and then erected a stature of Zeus in the Holy of Holies! This was indeed an abomination! Antiochus was a type of the antichrist that is coming, another that will duplicate what Antiochus did, and even go further!

2 Thessalonians 2
4Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.

Sorry, but I do not believe that Titus fulfilled this.

I actually don’t believe Titus fulfilled this either. But where does Paul ever mention “anti-christ’? Where in Revelation is “anti-christ†ever mentioned.

"the religion of the church" and "the government of the state" "shall perish" and "hall be darkened, and brought to nothing!" How funny!

Funny only to those who aren’t familiar with the OT or familiar with Hebrew idioms. Perhaps this will help:

Sir Isaac Newton (1642-1727)
"The figurative language of the prophets is taken from the analogy between the world natural and an empire or kingdom considered as a world politic. Accordingly, the world natural, consisting of heaven and earth, signifies the whole world politic, consisting of thrones and people, or so much of it as is considered in prophecy; and the things in that world signify the analogous things in this. For the heavens and the things therein signify thrones and dignities, and those who enjoy them: and the earth, with the things thereon, the inferior people; and the lowest parts of the earth, called Hades or Hell, the lowest or most miserable part of them. Great earthquakes, and the shaking of heaven and earth, are put for the shaking of kingdoms, so as to distract and overthrow them; the creating of a new heaven and earth, and the passing of an old one; or the beginning and end of a world, for the rise and ruin of a body politic signified thereby. The sun, for the whole species and race of kings, in the kingdoms of the world politic; the moon, for the body of common people considered as the king's wife; the starts, for subordinate princes and great men; or for bishops and rulers of the people of God, when the sun is Christ. Setting of the sun, moon, and stars; darkening the sun, turning the moon into blood, and falling of the stars, for the ceasing of a kingdom." (Observations on the Prophecies, Part i. chap. ii)

How much better a sign if people woke up one morning, and the sun came up, but it was dark!

Depending on what time the sun went dark that morning, they might not wake up at all. Gets awful cold with no sun.

Did you never read?

Rev 6
15 And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains;
16 And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb:
17 For the great day of his wrath is come;

Ever read to whom Jesus said this to in Luke?


Luk 23:28 But Jesus turning unto them said, Daughters of Jerusalem, weep not for me, but weep for yourselves, and for your children.
Luk 23:29 For, behold, the days are coming, in the which they shall say, Blessed are the barren, and the wombs that never bare, and the paps which never gave suck.
Luk 23:30 Then shall they begin to say to the mountains, Fall on us; and to the hills, Cover us.

Seems pretty specific as to whom Jesus was speaking doesn’t it?

Also fits in with Malachi:

Mal 3:2 But who may abide the day of his coming? and who shall stand when he appeareth? for he is like a refiner's fire, and like fullers' soap:

It is quoted from Is 2:

Lets get some context that is woefully absent in this conversation:

Isa 2:1 The word that Isaiah the son of Amoz saw concerning Judah and Jerusalem.

Isa 2:19 And they shall go into the holes of the rocks, and into the caves of the earth, for fear of the LORD, and for the glory of his majesty, when he ariseth to shake terribly the earth.

So we have a text dealing with Judah and Jerusalem being quoted by Jesus and John, clearly meant for 1st century Messiah rejecting Jews(Matt 23:39) that you wish to place somewhere in the future. And you call me funny.

I will take the literal meaning as the intent of the author, and forget Lightfoot.

Do you really wish to get into a discussion of how you take Revelation and prophetic language literally?

Quote:
John Gill:

and they shall see the son of man coming in the clouds of heaven, with power and great glory. The Arabic version reads it, "ye shall see", as is expressed by Christ, in Mat_26:64. Where the high priest, chief priests, Scribes, and elders, and the whole sanhedrim of the Jews are spoken to: and as the same persons, namely, the Jews, are meant here as there; so the same coming of the son of man is intended; not his coming at the last day to judgment; though that will be in the clouds of heaven, and with great power and glory; but his coming to bring on, and give the finishing stroke to the destruction of that people, which was a dark and cloudy dispensation to them:



Why go to such an extend to explain away a simple verse? This is hilarious!

Because people like you(and formerly me) are ignorant of Hebrew figures of speech and OT language. Hint: The Bible is a very eastern and Hebraic book, it was not written for those with a 21st century western mind-set despite what Hal Lindsey says.

So when the NT writers write “coming on the clouds†they don’t take it like you do, their mind goes back to the OT and the Hebrew mind set:

Isa 19:1 The burden of Egypt. Behold, the LORD rideth upon a swift cloud, and shall come into Egypt: and the idols of Egypt shall be moved at his presence, and the heart of Egypt shall melt in the midst of it.

Why not let John give us some more information:

Rev 19
11 And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war.

But I thought He was coming on a cloud not a horse. Or perhaps He is coming on a horse-shaped cloud, that way we can still take it literally.

Mat 24:34 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled.

People have been arguing this verse for centuries. We will not solve that argument here. However, let's look again:

33 So likewise ye, when ye shall see all these things, know that it is near, even at the doors.
34 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled.

See all what things?

the sun be darkened
the moon shall not give her light
the stars shall fall from heaven
the powers of the heavens shall be shaken
the sign of the Son of man in heaven:

What is this sign?

For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.

Now read again what Jesus said: "So likewise ye, when ye shall see all these things, know that it is near, even at the doors." Therefore, Jesus is speaking directly to whoever will see these signs. What did He say next?
"This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled." What generation? Of course, it has to be the generation that sees these signs. Were these signs seen in 70 AD, or for that matter, any time after Jesus rose from the dead, to today? No, of course not! Jesus has not come back yet!

Then every NT writer who said it was near are false prophets.

How do I know? Because Jesus tells us, if we can read!

29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

What does immediately mean?

I don’t know how you would define immediately. You say words like these are to be taken in God’s time remember? So immediately to God could be hundreds of years to us. You see your problem when you are allowed to switch meaning at your convenience?

There is not even a temple in Jerusalem for Him to set up His throne in! Can you see now why so many people are futurists?

Sure, they ignore scripture or force their literal interpretation on it or usually both.

Eph 2:20 And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone;
Eph 2:21 In whom all the building fitly framed together groweth unto an holy temple in the Lord:
Eph 2:22 In whom ye also are builded together for an habitation of God through the Spirit.

2Co 6:16 And what agreement hath the temple of God with idols? for ye are the temple of the living God; as God hath said, I will dwell in them, and walk in them; and I will be their God, and they shall be my people.
2Co 6:17 Wherefore come out from among them, and be ye separate, saith the Lord, and touch not the unclean thing; and I will receive you,
2Co 6:18 And will be a Father unto you, and ye shall be my sons and daughters, saith the Lord Almighty.

Oh, really? Read that verse again:
Behold, I will send you Elijah the prophet before the coming of the great and dreadful day of the LORD

If the great and terrible day of the Lord is still future to us, then it is definitely future to John the baptist, and so this verse is fulfilled: John the baptist certainly came before the great and dreadful day of the Lord. Where then, is the problem? What does it matter if John came 40 years before or 2000 years before: before is before, either way.

We are making progress, most futurist say Elijah has not come yet. Of course they realize when Elijah comes the “day of the Lord†is not far behind. But at least you recognize the Elijah of Malachi was fulfilled in the 1st century.

Mat 3:12 Whose fan is in his hand, and he will throughly purge his floor, and gather his wheat into the garner; but he will burn up the chaff with unquenchable fire.

I guess we’re still waiting on this as well.

Where did you read in any history book that this took place:

7 The first angel sounded, and ...all green grass was burnt up.

Same question for this:

8 And the second angel sounded, ...and the third part of the sea became blood; And the third part of the creatures which were in the sea, and had life, died; and the third part of the ships were destroyed.

Same question for this:

10 And the third angel sounded, ...and the third part of the waters became wormwood; and many men died of the waters, because they were made bitter.

Same question for this:

12 And the fourth angel sounded, and the third part of the sun was smitten, and the third part of the moon, and the third part of the stars; so as the third part of them was darkened, and the day shone not for a third part of it, and the night likewise.

13 And the sixth angel sounded, ...And the four angels were loosed, which were prepared for an hour, and a day, and a month, and a year, for to slay the third part of men.

I could go on, but it would be pointless.

Now, which history book was it?

Have you learned nothing? Do you not understand the symbolism and the figurative nature of prophetic language?

Of course, a good preterist came come up with an answer for all of these things. However, I prefer to take these things as literal: when God says "all the grass," I believe that is what He meant. When God said, "the third part of men," I believe he meant just that.

You do? Well lets see how literal you take these very simple statements:

Rev 1:1 The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass; and he sent and signified it by his angel unto his servant John:
Rev 1:3 Blessed is he that readeth, and they that hear the words of this prophecy, and keep those things which are written therein: for the time is at hand.

Hmm, “shortly come to pass†tell me what is the literal meaning of that phrase?
What secret code is God using when He tells them the events of Revelation are “at hand�


Mat 10:23 But when they persecute you in this city, flee ye into another: for verily I say unto you, Ye shall not have gone over the cities of Israel, till the Son of man be come.

It seems the obvious meaning of this verse is that Christ would come before the disciples had gone over the cities of Israel. But I’m just a preterist so this can’t be the meaning, so tell me, what is the obvious meaning?


Rev 21:9 And there came unto me one of the seven angels which had the seven vials full of the seven last plagues, and talked with me, saying, Come hither, I will shew thee the bride, the Lamb's wife.
Rev 21:10 And he carried me away in the spirit to a great and high mountain, and shewed me that great city, the holy Jerusalem, descending out of heaven from God,

Let see, the angel says he is going to show John “the brideâ€Â, the “Lamb’s wifeâ€Â. But apparently the angel gets distracted and instead shows John the New Jerusalem. So since The New Jerusalem can’t be the bride/Lamb’s wife/Church, what is the super secret meaning of this otherwise plain verse?

I don't know how you read Revelation, but when I read it, I see that God will destroy most of the population of planet earth, before He returns.

Well since Revelation is full of OT symbolism and concepts, I read it with that in mind. I also understand Revelation was not written in English so it helps to have a lexicon handy. That way when I see the word “world†used I can look it up and see what is meant. Try it.

It would be funny to imagine, that the flood of Noah was a prophecied event in our future. We know, since it already happened, that all but 8 people on planet earth died. Now, I wonder how preterists would speak of this imagined prophecy. The futurist would say boldly that a flood was coming, and would wipe out all the air breathing animals in earth, including man. The preterist, on the other hand, would come up with something like, "Don't you read history? Didn't you read about the Johnstown Flood of 1889? This is not a prophecy about the future: it already happened!

What would be even funnier is to approach the Bible in such a manner as to take everything literal especially prophetic language.

In your recording of history you would record these events as literally happening:


Isa 19:1 The burden of Egypt. Behold, the LORD rideth upon a swift cloud, and shall come into Egypt: and the idols of Egypt shall be moved at his presence, and the heart of Egypt shall melt in the midst of it.

I bet that was something to see. Oohh, wait, what about this one:

Psa 18:7 Then the earth shook and trembled; the foundations also of the hills moved and were shaken, because he was wroth.
Psa 18:8 There went up a smoke out of his nostrils, and fire out of his mouth devoured: coals were kindled by it.
Psa 18:9 He bowed the heavens also, and came down: and darkness was under his feet.
Psa 18:10 And he rode upon a cherub, and did fly: yea, he did fly upon the wings of the wind.

I wonder why we don’t have this recorded since it literally happened in John’s day:

Isa 40:3 The voice of him that crieth in the wilderness, Prepare ye the way of the LORD, make straight in the desert a highway for our God.
Isa 40:4 Every valley shall be exalted, and every mountain and hill shall be made low: and the crooked shall be made straight, and the rough places plain:
Isa 40:5 And the glory of the LORD shall be revealed, and all flesh shall see it together: for the mouth of the LORD hath spoken it.
Isa 40:6 The voice said, Cry. And he said, What shall I cry? All flesh is grass, and all the goodliness thereof is as the flower of the field:

I guess we needed you there to record these events. I especially like the “flesh is grass†part.

Yes indeed History would have been much more fun if recorded by futurist such as yourself.

2 Peter 3:10
But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.

I wonder if you believe this also has taken place?

Me along with others:

John Lightfoot (1859)
"That the destruction of Jerusalem is very frequently expressed in Scripture as if it were the destruction of the whole world, Deut. 32:22; "A fire is kindled in mine anger, and shall burn unto the lowest hell, and shall consume the earth with her increase, and set on fire the foundations of the mountains.' Jer. 4:23; 'I beheld the earth, and lo, it was without form, and void; and the heavens, and they had no light,' &c. The discourse there also is concerning the destruction of that nation, Isa. 65:17; 'Behold, I create new heavens and a new earth: and the former shall not be remembered,' &c. And more passages of this sort among the prophets. According to this sense, Christ speaks in this place; and Peter speaks in his Second Epistle, third chapter; and John, in the sixth of the Revelation; and Paul, 2 Cor. 5:17, &c. (vol. 2, pp. 18-19)
"With the same reference it is, that the times and state of things immediately following the destruction of Jerusalem are called 'a new creation,' new heavens,' and 'a new earth.' When should that be? Read the whole chapter; and you will find the Jews rejected and cut off; and from that time is that new creation of the evangelical world among the Gentiles.
Compare 2 Cor. 5:17 and Rev. 21:1,2; where, the old Jerusalem being cut off and destroyed, a new one succeeds; and new heavens and a new earth are created.
2 Peter 3:13: 'We, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth.' The heaven and the earth of the Jewish church and commonwealth must be all on fire, and the Mosaic elements burnt up; but we, according to the promise made to us by Isaiah the prophet, when all these are consumed, look for the new creation of the evangelical state" (vol. 3, p.453)
"That the destruction of Jerusalem and the whole Jewish state is described as if the whole frame of the world were to be dissolved. Nor is it strange, when God destroyed his habitation and city, places once so dear to him, with so direful and sad an overthrow; his own people, whom he accounted of as much or more than the whole world beside, by so dreadful and amazing plagues. Matt. 24:29,30, 'The sun shall be darkened &c. Then shall appear the 'sign of the Son of man,' &c; which yet are said to fall out within that generation, ver. 34. 2 Pet. 3:10, 'The heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat,' &c. Compare with this Deut. 32:22, Heb. 12:26: and observe that by elements are understood the Mosaic elements, Gal 4:9, Coloss. 2:20: and you will not doubt that St. Peter speaks only of the conflagration of Jerusalem, the destruction of the nation, and the abolishing the dispensation of Moses" (vol. 3, p. 452).

John Owen (1721)
'It is evident, then, that in the prophetical idiom and manner of speech, by heavens and earth, the civil and religious state and combination of men in the world, and the men of them, were often understood. So were the heavens and earth that world which then was destroyed by the flood.
' 4. On this foundation I affirm that the heavens and earth here intended in this prophecy of Peter, the coming of the Lord, the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men, mentioned in the destruction of that heaven and earth, do all of them relate, not to the last and final judgment of the world, but to that utter desolation and destruction that was to be made of the Judaical church and state
'First, There is the foundation of the apostle's inference and exhortation, seeing that all these things, however precious they seem, or what value soever any put upon them, shall be dissolved, that is, destroyed; and that in that dreadful and fearful manner before mentioned, in a day of judgment, wrath, and vengeance, by fire and sword; let others mock at the threats of Christ's coming: He will come- He will not tarry; and then the heavens and earth that God Himself planted, -the sun, moon, and stars of the Judaical polity and church, -the whole old world of worship and worshippers, that stand out in their obstinancy against the Lord Christ, shall be sensibly dissolved and destroyed: this we know shall be the end of these things, and that shortly." (Sermon on 2 Peter iii. 11, Works, folio, 1721.).

Jonathan Edwards (1739)
"Thus there was a final end to the Old Testament world: all was finished with a kind of day of judgment, in which the people of God were saved, and His enemies terribly destroyed." (History of Redemption, vol. i. p. 445)

John Brown (1853)
" 'Heaven and earth passing,' understood literally, is the dissolution of the present system of the universe, and the period when that is to take place, is called the 'end of the world.' But a person at all familiar with the phraseology of the Old Testament Scriptures, knows that the dissolution of the Mosaic economy, and the establishment of the Christian, is often spoken of as the removing of the old earth and heavens, and the creation of a new earth and new heavens" (vol. 1, p. 170)

That lexicon I sugested for Revelation, use it on the word "elements" and see what you come up with and where the word is used elsewhere in sccripture.