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Who's REALLY at fault?

Reminder: This is the Theology forum in which certain rules apply. When posting an opposing viewpoint, supporting Scripture needs to be provided. I know the OP doesn't provide Scripture but because a question was presented rather than a specific doctrine for discussion it would seem the Scripture is what is being sought.
Often, search as we may, we will never find a specific Scripture laying down a specific rule we are to follow. The reason may well be simply because none exist as a singular, directly focused command... or admonishment... for, or against one particular thing, thought, or event.

To me, understanding this, and learning to sense the Spirit in those specifics is at the heart of what Jesus taught many times when He said "You have heard it said............ , but I tell you............. ." It seems people often find no difficulty in following what they have interpreted as a clear, black and white rule. But, as Jesus pointed out, even while being so diligent in doing those things, they often totally overlooked the original intent of that Scripture.

I felt that in looking at the OP, it really is very easy to find certain Scriptures that, depending on our individual esoteric views, can be used as a "proof text" for either of the directions I suggested. Doing that, quite comfortably makes either view "correct" in the eyes of someone answering.

My whole point in posting that OP question was not really to have someone show me "THE" once-and-for-all "declarative"... or even "imperative", Scripture that settles the question..... but rather, to hear each of our "whys" behind choosing the particular Scripture each of us based our belief upon.

And a further reason is that this same thing can occur in any number of life's situations. Situations in which each of us can... and often do... come up with completely diametrically opposed views about something we consider ourselves "right" in, and the other person, obviously, "wrong" and/or misled.
 
"In essentials Unity. In non-essentials Liberty. In all things Charity."

2 Thesselonians 3:16 [NIV] "Now may the Lord of peace himself give you peace at all times and in every way. The Lord be with all of you."

To the actual OP question, God will teach us and we are responsible to listen:

Psalm 71:17 [NIV] "Since my youth, God, you have taught me, and to this day I declare your marvelous deeds."

John 6:45 [NIV] "It is written in the Prophets: ‘They will all be taught by God.’Everyone who has heard the Father and learned from him comes to me."
 
We have been told to watch out for ourselves, and to search the Scriptures for ourselves....... BUT, if we choose, instead, to believe whatever we hear a person say, whether it comes from our preacher, some person on here, a televangelist, or even the Catholic Pope.................................... Then who is really at fault for following False Information?
We are Willie. We are not going to be able stand at the Bema seat and say," Well He told me!" We will be judged by what we believed, because the Lord Jesus Christ gave us everything we needed to advance in His plan. Many just choose not to follow that plan. The man that chose to teach false doctrine will judged by that choice. The man that chose to follow that false doctrine will be judged by that choice.

And as believers, the judgment will be evaluation. Evaluation of our choices and works/fruits AFTER we are saved. We have every opportunity to be MUCH in His Kingdom. But many of us make bad choices after we are saved and will be LEAST in His Kingdom.........all based upon our freewill choices after we chose to believe.
 
We will be judged by what we believed,
No you will not be judged by what you believed.
You will be judged by what you DID.
Jesus said at John 5:28-29 (NKJV)
… the hour is coming in which all who are in the graves will hear His voice and come forth—
those who have done good, to the resurrection of life,
and those who have done evil, to the resurrection of condemnation.

Paul said at Ro 2:6-10 (NKJV)
(God) will render to each one according to his deeds;
eternal life to those who by patient continuance in doing good seek for glory, honor, and immortality;
but to those who are self-seeking and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness—indignation and wrath, tribulation and anguish, on every soul of man who does evil, of the Jew first and also of the Greek;
but glory, honor, and peace to everyone who works what is good, to the Jew first and also to the Greek.

Faith without works is dead and will not save you. (James 2)
 
No you will not be judged by what you believed.
You will be judged by what you DID.
Jesus said at John 5:28-29 (NKJV)
… the hour is coming in which all who are in the graves will hear His voice and come forth—
those who have done good, to the resurrection of life,
and those who have done evil, to the resurrection of condemnation.

Paul said at Ro 2:6-10 (NKJV)
(God) will render to each one according to his deeds;
eternal life to those who by patient continuance in doing good seek for glory, honor, and immortality;
but to those who are self-seeking and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness—indignation and wrath, tribulation and anguish, on every soul of man who does evil, of the Jew first and also of the Greek;
but glory, honor, and peace to everyone who works what is good, to the Jew first and also to the Greek.

Faith without works is dead and will not save you. (James 2)
Jim. What we believe, is the MOTIVATION behind what we DO.

For example.......If we do a bunch of 'good' works from our flesh to maintain the salvation that HE secured for us the moment we trusted in Him for our salvation. Those works will be judged as worthless because we BELIEVED the wrong thing.

Rom 2:6-10~~~Speaks exactly of this. Eternal security seeks for His Glory, His honor, His immortality. Loss of salvation constantly seeks mortality and death for His children in some way.

All sin is evil. But not all evil is sin. And unbeliever can give to the poor and do "good" in our eyes. But in Gods eyes it is evil, because the motivation is from the flesh and not the Spirit. It is evil, but it is not sin. And God judges the motivation(heart) of man. It is the motivation behind the deeds that are judged by God.
 
Jim. What we believe, is the MOTIVATION behind what we DO.
Motivation without action is meaningless.
It's just good intentions and it has been said that the road to hell is paved with good intentions. (John Milton, Paradise Lost)
That is why James warned us that faith without works is dead and will not save anyone.
God judges the motivation(heart) of man. It is the motivation behind the deeds that are judged by God.
SCripture does not mention anywhere about being judged by our motivations.
It says repeatedly that we will be judged by what we do.
Jesus said:
Mat 25:31-46 (NKJV) When the Son of Man comes in His glory, and all the holy angels with Him, then He will sit on the throne of His glory. All the nations will be gathered before Him, and He will separate them one from another, as a shepherd divides his sheep from the goats. And He will set the sheep on His right hand, but the goats on the left.
Then the King will say to those on His right hand, “Come, you blessed of My Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world: for I was hungry and you gave Me food; I was thirsty and you gave Me drink; I was a stranger and you took Me in; I was naked and you clothed Me; I was sick and you visited Me; I was in prison and you came to Me.
Then the righteous will answer Him, saying, “Lord, when did we see You hungry and feed You, or thirsty and give You drink? When did we see You a stranger and take You in, or naked and clothe You? Or when did we see You sick, or in prison, and come to You?”
And the King will answer and say to them, “Assuredly, I say to you, inasmuch as you did it to one of the least of these my brethren, you did it to me.”


Then He will also say to those on the left hand, “Depart from Me, you cursed, into the everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels: for I was hungry and you gave Me no food; I was thirsty and you gave Me no drink; I was a stranger and you did not take Me in, naked and you did not clothe Me, sick and in prison and you did not visit Me.”
Then they also will answer Him, saying, “Lord, when did we see You hungry or thirsty or a stranger or naked or sick or in prison, and did not minister to You?”


Then He will answer them, saying, “Assuredly, I say to you, inasmuch as you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to Me.

And these will go away into everlasting punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.


John 3:36 He who believes in the Son has eternal life; he who does not obey the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God rests upon him.

John 5:28-29 (NKJV) … the hour is coming in which all who are in the graves will hear His voice and come forth—those who have done good, to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil, to the resurrection of condemnation.

John 8:51 Most assuredly, I say to you, if anyone keeps My word he shall never see death

Paul said
Ro 2:6-10 (NKJV) (God) will render to each one according to his deeds; eternal life to those who by patient continuance in doing good seek for glory, honor, and immortality; but to those who are self-seeking and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness—indignation and wrath, tribulation and anguish, on every soul of man who does evil, of the Jew first and also of the Greek; but glory, honor, and peace to everyone who works what is good, to the Jew first and also to the Greek.

Ro 8:12-14 (NKJV) “Therefore, brethren, we are debtors – not to the flesh, to live according to the flesh for if you live according to the flesh you will die; but, if by the Spirit you put to death the deeds of the body, you will live. For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, these are the sons of God.

2 Cor 5:10 (NKJV) For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, that each one may receive the things done in the body, according to what he has done, whether good or bad.

Peter said:
1 Pe 1:17 (NKJV) And if you invoke as Father him who judges each one impartially according to his deeds, conduct yourselves with fear throughout the time of your exile.

John said:
1 John 2:17 And the world is passing away, and the lust of it; but he who does the will of God abides forever.

You need to get over your aversion to work.
 
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Motivation without action is meaningless.
It's just good intentions and it has been said that the road to hell is paved with good intentions.
That is why James wared us that faith without works is dead and will not save anyone.
So unbelievers who are motivated and give to the poor, care for the widows, are moral and have pretty much cleaned up their lives are saved?

And honestly, James is talking about our faith,as believers. If we don't grow in His grace and knowledge after we are saved......we don't have a chance to have the BIBLICAL problem solving devices to save us from the most trivial problems of life.

Faith without works IS dead. And it will not save us from our daily problems and problems in this life. Only if we advance in His mind can we have the faith that solves problems like HE would. If we don't advance in His mind after we are saved.........we resort to our own problem solving devices.

This is where we get loss of salvation or not really saved. We have not advanced in HIS mind, so the first problem we run into is loss of salvation or not really saved for those who have not advanced is MY mind.
 
So unbelievers who are motivated and give to the poor, care for the widows, are moral and have pretty much cleaned up their lives are saved?
Nobody said that.
And it is as absurd as you are trying to be.
And honestly, James is talking about our faith
Yes. He said that your faith, if it not accompanied by works, will not say you.
He makes that point very clearly.
Why are you trying to make it appear that he was not?
What is your issue with Jesus command to do good works.
Mat 5:16 “Let your light so shine before men, that they may see your good works and glorify your Father in heaven."
Faith without works IS dead. And it will not save us from our daily problems and problems in this life. Only if we advance in His mind can we have the faith that solves problems like HE would. If we don't advance in His mind after we are saved.........we resort to our own problem solving devices.
Not Jesus or James or peter or Paul are talking about our works solving our problems in this life.
Every one of the passages I posted has to do with entering into eternal life.
In each one, good works are a requirement.
How is it that you do not see that?
Why would you make up such nonsense about good works being don to help us with our problems in this life. That's total rubbish.
Jhn 16:33 “These things I have spoken to you, that in Me you may have peace. In the world you will[fn] have tribulation; but be of good cheer, I have overcome the world.”
In this world, if you follow Jesus, you will have tribulation.
Mar 13:9 “But watch out for yourselves, for they will deliver you up to councils, and you will be beaten in the synagogues. You will be brought before rulers and kings for My sake, for a testimony to them."
Does that sound like anyone is overcoming problems in this life?
This is where we get loss of salvation or not really saved. We have not advanced in HIS mind, so the first problem we run into is loss of salvation or not really saved for those who have not advanced is MY mind.
That's baloney.
Where did you get that nonsense?
Chapter and verse please
 
Nobody said that.
And it is as absurd as you are trying to be.

Yes. He said that your faith, if it not accompanied by works, will not say you.
He makes that point very clearly.
Why are you trying to make it appear that he was not?
What is your issue with Jesus command to do good works.
Mat 5:16 “Let your light so shine before men, that they may see your good works and glorify your Father in heaven."

Not Jesus or James or peter or Paul are talking about our works solving our problems in this life.
Every one of the passages I posted has to do with entering into eternal life.
In each one, good works are a requirement.
How is it that you do not see that?
Why would you make up such nonsense about good works being don to help us with our problems in this life. That's total rubbish.
Jhn 16:33 “These things I have spoken to you, that in Me you may have peace. In the world you will[fn] have tribulation; but be of good cheer, I have overcome the world.”
In this world, if you follow Jesus, you will have tribulation.
Mar 13:9 “But watch out for yourselves, for they will deliver you up to councils, and you will be beaten in the synagogues. You will be brought before rulers and kings for My sake, for a testimony to them."
Does that sound like anyone is overcoming problems in this life?

That's baloney.
Where did you get that nonsense?
Chapter and verse please
Jim.........be of good cheer in the tribulations of THIS LIFE. Hard to be of good cheer when we have bothers and sisters telling us that we may go to the LoF because He didn't overcome this world.

Revealing His Glory( His FREE grace and Mercy) is how we deal with this life in good and bad times.

Just look at the verses you posted again. They are all about how we deal with problems in this life and time. Our tribulation, our watching out for ourselves.
 
Just look at the verses you posted again. They are all about how we deal with problems in this life and time. Our tribulation, our watching out for ourselves.
You look at what I posted again and you will see that they are not about "problems in this life."
Striving to be Christ-like in the midst of persecution and tribulation.
Would you include being beheaded by an ISIS Muslim terrorist among the "problems" of this life?
How about being imprisoned and beaten by the Chinese authorities in China? Is that a "problem"?
How about being arrested, beaten and given an abortion by the Chinese police because you already have one child? IS that a "problem"?
 
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