WHY A DIFFERENT DOCTRINE?

[JJsaint]

Why do most Christians want to ''save'' everyone and bring them in to their denomination?
By that I mean convert them and make them Christian sheep?
Do they preach the same message Jesus did?
From what I gather most people say they preach what Jesus did - but do not.
For example,consider these passages....
If Jesus preached the message of today's Churches/Christians,I'm not really sure he would have lost so many followers...
What say you on this?



Matthew 20:16:So the last shall be first, and the first last: for many be called, but few chosen.

John 6:39:And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.

John 6:41:The Jews then murmured at him, because he said, I am the bread which came down from heaven.

John 6:44:No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.

John 6:60:Many therefore of his disciples, when they had heard this, said, This is an hard saying; who can hear it?

John 6:61:When Jesus knew in himself that his disciples murmured at it, he said unto them, Doth this offend you?

John 6:65:And he said, Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father.

John 6:66:From that time many of his disciples went back, and walked no more with him.

Luke 12:51:Suppose ye that I am come to give peace on earth? I tell you, Nay; but rather division:

John 7:43:So there was a division among the people because of him.

John 9:16:Therefore said some of the Pharisees, This man is not of God, because he keepeth not the sabbath day. Others said, How can a man that is a sinner do such miracles? And there was a division among them.

John 10:19:There was a division therefore again among the Jews for these sayings.

Matthew 10:14:And whosoever shall not receive you, nor hear your words, when ye depart out of that house or city, shake off the dust of your feet.

Luke 9:5:And whosoever will not receive you, when ye go out of that city, shake off the very dust from your feet for a testimony against them.

Acts 13:51:But they shook off the dust of their feet against them, and came unto Iconium.

Mark 4:12:That seeing they may see, and not perceive; and hearing they may hear, and not understand; lest at any time they should be converted, and their sins should be forgiven them.

Matthew 13:15:That seeing they may see, and not perceive; and hearing they may hear, and not understand; lest at any time they should be converted, and their sins should be forgiven them.

John 10:26:But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you.

 

[Former Christian]

JJsaint

What say you in your own words, knowing that not all Christians understand the bible alike?

FC

 

[JJsaint]

JJsaint

What say you in your own words, knowing that not all Christians understand the bible alike?

FC

What do you mean?
I thought those passage were self explanatory?

I think the common Christian teaching is that everyone is loved and accepted,the passages I posted is different,I feel from the message that Christians preach about ''saving'' people or getting people ''saved'' or ''saving'' themselves'' or needing to be ''saved'' or converting people.

Why do people want everyone to be Christian sheep when Jesus told people they were not his sheep?(John 10:26)

The passages I posted speak of division among the people as well as people walking no more with Jesus.

My view of this is that if Christians REALLY preach the message that Jesus did,then why was there division among the people or why did Jesus lose followers?

...I think this is a difficult topic,another passage that may cause problems is...

Matthew 13:15:For this people's heart is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes they have closed; lest at any time they should see with their eyes and hear with their ears, and should understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them.

Were people not meant to be converted?

 

[childeye]

I'm not sure what you're getting at. Of course there is division, and I can see that. Still I believe there are those who see the simple Truth. God is Love and we should trust the love in our hearts.

 

[JJsaint]

I'm not sure what you're getting at. Of course there is division, and I can see that. Still I believe there are those who see the simple Truth. God is Love and we should trust the love in our hearts.

In our hearts?

Jeremiah 17:9:The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked: who can know it?


What I am trying to get across is why is there so much Christian acceptance and why is the Christian doctrine of acceptance and love of everyone,different from the message Jesus preached?

 

[farouk]

JJs:

The Gospel is to 'every creature'. But not everyone is willing to believe God's terms of repentance and faith. I think you are strongly implying that 'results-oriented' evangelism methods fail to take this into account; I'm sure you are right. First and foremost, it is the glory of God that is at stake, rather than somehow getting people to make so called professions of faith that may not be worth much.

 

[JJsaint]

JJs:

The Gospel is to 'every creature'. But not everyone is willing to believe God's terms of repentance and faith. I think you are strongly implying that 'results-oriented' evangelism methods fail to take this into account; I'm sure you are right. First and foremost, it is the glory of God that is at stake, rather than somehow getting people to make so called professions of faith that may not be worth much.

Really? -''every creature''
Does that mean we should preach to the animals?
Jesus did not say do not preach to animals,I mean Balaam has a conversation with his donkey...(Numbers 22:28-30)


Read Mark 4:12:That seeing they may see, and not perceive; and hearing they may hear, and not understand; lest at any time they should be converted, and their sins should be forgiven them.

It seems some people are not meant to be converted,who are those people?

 

[farouk]

Really? -''every creature''
Does that mean we should preach to the animals?
Jesus did not say do not preach to animals,I mean Balaam has a conversation with his donkey...(Numbers 22:28-30)


Read Mark 4:12:That seeing they may see, and not perceive; and hearing they may hear, and not understand; lest at any time they should be converted, and their sins should be forgiven them.

It seems some people are not meant to be converted,who are those people?

JJs:

Presumably referring to people.

In Acts it also says: 'God now commandeth all men everywhere to repent'.

 

[AirDancer]

It seems some people are not meant to be converted,who are those people?

Hi, JJ-

The simple truth is that we do not know who "those people" are. That is why we are to share the Word with everyone. And please consider the possibility that you might share with someone (who has already been approached several times in the past) and this time the person embraces the true Word.

Because we do not know who can or cannot be converted, it is our mission to make the effort. Sharing the Word is the most obvious way. However, the example of your personal walk can influence others as well.

;)

 

[for_his_glory]

Mat 22:14 For many are called, but few are chosen.

John 3:5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.
John 3:6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.

John 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

Everyone is called of God unto His salvation, but many refuse His calling and many that have answered His call have also sought after mans doctrines believing they are the doctrines of Christ. There is only one doctrine and that is the written word of God, but there is division in the doctrine as one teaches with a carnal mind and not that of the Holy Spirit teaching through them. It is up to each individual to learn how to discern what truth is so they will stand before the Lord without excuse.

 

[Sinthesis]

Why do most Christians want to ''save'' everyone and bring them in to their denomination?
By that I mean convert them and make them Christian sheep?
Do they preach the same message Jesus did?
From what I gather most people say they preach what Jesus did - but do not.
For example,consider these passages....
If Jesus preached the message of today's Churches/Christians,I'm not really sure he would have lost so many followers...
What say you on this?

The difficulty you are having is that you are trying to equate the gospel message from both before and after the resurrection. The fact is that everyone fell away from Jesus at the Cross. We all would have as well. However, it is the resurrection that brought Jesus' followers back to Him. Jesus spent 40 days preaching today's Christian message and illuminating His previous 3.5yr ministry, which has ever since grown into the dominate faith of the entire world. This was the plan all along.

 

[JJsaint]

Hi, JJ-

The simple truth is that we do not know who "those people" are. That is why we are to share the Word with everyone. And please consider the possibility that you might share with someone (who has already been approached several times in the past) and this time the person embraces the true Word.

Because we do not know who can or cannot be converted, it is our mission to make the effort. Sharing the Word is the most obvious way. However, the example of your personal walk can influence others as well.

;)

Matthew 13:11:He answered and said unto them, Because it is given unto you to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it is not given.

Who did Jesus convert?Who didn't Jesus convert?
'

 

[Former Christian]

JJsaint

Calvinism again. The idea that it was not given to some to be saved. God chooses who is to be saved, instead of offering humanity the choice whether or not to be saved in Christ. You'll find believers and non-believers in Calvinism on this forum. I'm one who doesn't believe in Calvinism. In fact I could be called anti-Calvinism. I started out as a Calvinist. It was that start that led me on the road to the realization that Christianity is nothing more than a man-made religion. And for that alone I'm thankful to John Calvin.

I still think Calvinism the doctrine of a murderer. No one has ever offered evidence that Calvin ever repented of his part in the murder of those who didn't agree with him. If he was alive today, he and his followers would be considered a cult if his ideas had never been heard of before. But history has been kind to him. And his followers as well. As Calvinism in some form is now half of mainstream Protestantism. I would offer you Scripture within its context that says Calvinism is the interpretation of men. But I realize the futility of that measure since you are undoubtedly one who practices selective biblical interpretation.

There is only one Gospel. What is that Gospel to you? Which of the many Gospels offered in Christianity do you believe in? Do you believe in the Gospel of God, of Jesus Christ? Have you believed God? Have you believed in what he has provided in Christ? Do you know that God is the propitiation for the whole world, not just the world of those God has supposedly chosen to be a part of that world? Have you been baptized into Christ? Are you in Christ, or are you merely a follower of Christ? Do you know Christ, or just a bunch of biblical interpretations about Christ? More importantly, does Jesus Christ know you? Are you walking by the Spirit or by your interpretations? Those are the questions you really should be asking.

FC

 

[JJsaint]

JJsaint

Calvinism again. The idea that it was not given to some to be saved. God chooses who is to be saved, instead of offering humanity the choice whether or not to be saved in Christ. You'll find believers and non-believers in Calvinism on this forum. I'm one who doesn't believe in Calvinism. In fact I could be called anti-Calvinism. I started out as a Calvinist. It was that start that led me on the road to the realization that Christianity is nothing more than a man-made religion. And for that alone I'm thankful to John Calvin.

I still think Calvinism the doctrine of a murderer. No one has ever offered evidence that Calvin ever repented of his part in the murder of those who didn't agree with him. If he was alive today, he and his followers would be considered a cult if his ideas had never been heard of before. But history has been kind to him. And his followers as well. As Calvinism in some form is now half of mainstream Protestantism. I would offer you Scripture within its context that says Calvinism is the interpretation of men. But I realize the futility of that measure since you are undoubtedly one who practices selective biblical interpretation.

There is only one Gospel. What is that Gospel to you? Which of the many Gospels offered in Christianity do you believe in? Do you believe in the Gospel of God, of Jesus Christ? Have you believed God? Have you believed in what he has provided in Christ? Do you know that God is the propitiation for the whole world, not just the world of those God has supposedly chosen to be a part of that world? Have you been baptized into Christ? Are you in Christ, or are you merely a follower of Christ? Do you know Christ, or just a bunch of biblical interpretations about Christ? More importantly, does Jesus Christ know you? Are you walking by the Spirit or by your interpretations? Those are the questions you really should be asking.

FC

All denominations probably have their history that they want to forget i.e Roman Catholic Church murder of heretics.


Matthew 22:14:For many are called, but few are chosen.

Can we really say we are Children of God? If God chooses us and we don't choose God though we may say we do?