Bible Study Why Can't This Happen Now?

[tdidymas]

I agree with that but I don't believe that was blasphemy against the Holy Spirit, but it was definitely blasphemy against Jesus.

It's a typo.
TD

 

[HeIsRisen2018]

It's a typo.
TD

What was?

 

[tdidymas]

What was?

It's very easy to trace the conversation back by clicking on the up arrow beside the handle of the one you're replying to. Except in this case, someone deleted the original post.

It has to do with your statement that "it" was blasphemy - it traces back to the statement "the devil is Jesus..." - if you examined the full original post replied to, you could easily see that it's a typo error, and the person meant something else, like possibly the word "against" was left out. If you knew the scripture that was quoted, it wasn't difficult to figure out.
TD

 

[HeIsRisen2018]

It's very easy to trace the conversation back by clicking on the up arrow beside the handle of the one you're replying to. Except in this case, someone deleted the original post.

It has to do with your statement that "it" was blasphemy - it traces back to the statement "the devil is Jesus..." - if you examined the full original post replied to, you could easily see that it's a typo error, and the person meant something else, like possibly the word "against" was left out. If you knew the scripture that was quoted, it wasn't difficult to figure out.
TD

I'm sorry that I'm replying so late to your message but I'm just seeing it now, and that makes sense. I sincerely hope that's what they meant.

 

[Serving Zion]

Revelation 20:10 "And the devil, who deceived them, was thrown into the lake of burning sulfur, where the beast and false prophet had been thrown. They will be tormented day and night forever and ever."

I think you will find the answer by considering that the present time is a cosmic war between Christ who is for salvation, and the destroyer who brings judgment (consider this expression in Daniel 9:24-27).

There are a few different expressions regarding the end, throughout scripture. They all describe in one way or another, the present problem being that Christians are not pure and complete in Christ:

There is the parable of the tares, which says only after the weeds were gathered out from among the wheat, then the sons of the kingdom would shine bright.

St. Paul wrote that creation groans birth pains as it waits eagerly for the revealing of the sons of God. The sons of God are therefore concealed - what conceals them?

St. Paul also says that Jesus gave each of us a portion of grace. That portion is given according to the measure of Christ's gift. His body was broken and we were grafted in, but we are each only representing a portion of Christ. The intention is that we grow together until we achieve the full stature of Christ. What prevents that growth? .. he even said it himself, "when each part does it's work effectively it builds itself up in love".

Well what do you imagine will happen to the devil in those days, when we have really achieved the full stature of Christ? Of course he will be bound to destruction and there will be no end to his burning, because no longer will the world see Christianity as he says it is, but they will see Christ in Christians.

Isn't it clear, therefore, that the un-Christlikeness of Christians is precisely why the devil still thrives? .. and what has been the big hold up for the last two thousand years? Only that the body of Christ has not grown as it should.

When one part suffers, the whole body suffers. Even to this day it is evident in their fruits. I think it is ultimately the idolisation of Jesus Christ that prevents Christians from allowing anyone to quite bring forth the glory of Christ, because in their jealousy they think their carnal brother doesn't deserve such honour - but they do not realise that, just as Jesus said "aside from me you can do nothing", in fact it is Christ who is glorified in them. So rather than doing their part effectively to build up the body in love (ie: 1 Corinthians 12:26), they make themselves the enemy of Christ by preventing His appearance in their midst.

In summary therefore, it is because Christians do not "come out of her", but they keep subjecting their minds to the great prostitute who sits upon many waters, by way of the spiritual food they eat, that is how their thinking remains impure, sinful, having not been transformed into holiness.

That is how Christ does not yet shine through the church with the brightness to condemn the devil once and for all (though He once did, until the false teachers corrupted it - 2 Peter 2:1-3, 2 Thessalonians 2).

 

[HeIsRisen2018]

I think you will find the answer by considering that the present time is a cosmic war between Christ who is for salvation, and the destroyer who brings judgment (consider this expression in Daniel 9:24-27).

There are a few different expressions regarding the end, throughout scripture. They all describe in one way or another, the present problem being that Christians are not pure and complete in Christ. There is the parable of the tares, which says only after the weeds were gathered out from among the wheat, then the sons of the kingdom would shine bright. St. Paul wrote that creation groans birth pains as it waits eagerly for the revealing of the sons of God. The sons of God are therefore concealed - what conceals them? He also says that Jesus gave each of us a portion of grace. That portion is given according to the measure of Christ's gift. His body was broken and we were grafted in, but we are each only representing a portion of Christ. The intention is that we grow together until we achieve the full stature of Christ. What prevents that growth? .. he even said it himself, "when each part does it's work effectively it builds itself up in love". Well what do you imagine will happen to the devil in those days, when we have really achieved the full stature of Christ? Of course he will be bound to destruction and there will be no end to his burning, because no longer will the world see Christianity as he says it is, but they will see Christ in Christians. Isn't it clear, therefore, that the un-Christlikeness of Christians is precisely why the devil still thrives? .. and what has been the big hold up for the last two thousand years? Only that the body of Christ has not grown as it should. When one part suffers, the whole body suffers. Even to this day it is evident in their fruits. I think it is ultimately the idolisation of Jesus Christ that prevents Christians from allowing anyone to quite bring forth the glory of Christ, because in their jealousy they think their carnal brother doesn't deserve such honour - but they do not realise that, just as Jesus said "aside from me you can do nothing", in fact it is Christ who is glorified in them. So rather than doing their part effectively to build up the body in love (ie: 1 Corinthians 12:26), they make themselves the enemy of Christ by preventing His appearance in their midst. In summary therefore, it is because Christians do not "come out of her", but they keep subjecting their minds to the great prostitute who sits upon many waters, by way of the spiritual food they eat, that is how their thinking remains impure, sinful, having not been transformed into holiness. That is how Christ does not yet shine through the church with the brightness to condemn the devil once and for all (though He once did, until the false teachers corrupted it - 2 Peter 2:1-3, 2 Thessalonians 2).

Whoa hold on for a second! I have learning disabilities and that's way too long for me to read and understand. Mind summing and simplifying that up for me?

 

[Serving Zion]

Whoa hold on for a second! I have learning disabilities and that's way too long for me to read and understand. Mind summing and simplifying that up for me?

Oh, yes I wrote it on my mobile and I didn't realise the formatting was so bad. So I have separated the paragraphs and added a couple of bold parts to draw your attention to the punchy parts (though every word is necessary for the delivery of the message).

If you want just the summary, I think these two paragraphs from the middle do it quite well:

Well what do you imagine will happen to the devil in those days, when we have really achieved the full stature of Christ? Of course he will be bound to destruction and there will be no end to his burning, because no longer will the world see Christianity as he says it is, but they will see Christ in Christians.

Isn't it clear, therefore, that the un-Christlikeness of Christians is precisely why the devil still thrives?

 

[HeIsRisen2018]

Oh, yes I wrote it on my mobile and I didn't realise the formatting was so bad. So I have separated the paragraphs and added a couple of bold parts to draw your attention to the punchy parts (though every word is necessary for the delivery of the message).

If you want just the summary, I think these two paragraphs from the middle do it quite well:

Well what do you imagine will happen to the devil in those days, when we have really achieved the full stature of Christ? Of course he will be bound to destruction and there will be no end to his burning, because no longer will the world see Christianity as he says it is, but they will see Christ in Christians.

Isn't it clear, therefore, that the un-Christlikeness of Christians is precisely why the devil still thrives?

Thanks and I suppose that makes better sense to me but still not complete sense.

 

[Serving Zion]

Thanks and I suppose that makes better sense to me but still not complete sense.

Can you explain why it doesn't make sense? Let me see if I can see why

 

[HeIsRisen2018]

Can you explain why it doesn't make sense? Let me see if I can see why

How can the Lord wait for Christians to be perfectly Christlike to cast the devil into the lake of fire when He already knows that they won't be perfect until Christ returns?

 

[Serving Zion]

How can the Lord wait for Christians to be perfectly Christlike to cast the devil into the lake of fire when He already knows that they won't be perfect until Christ returns?

Hmmm, that's nice and clear, thank you!

.. so I don't think it needs to be that Christians become perfectly Christlike, but only that Christianity as a whole achieves the fullness of the stature of Christ (Ephesians 4:13). As you remember that Jesus Christ was walking around raising the dead and people were flocking to Him in masses and they were bringing the lame and sick to Him to be healed. But that isn't what the church's function is in the present day, even though it should be.

Do you remember that the woman with the blood flow was healed simply by touching the titzit of His garment? .. so it goes to show that there is such an enormous potential of power in Christ, it literally can redeem the whole world. Whereas Jesus was just one person walking around doing miracles, the reason He gave up His life is so that we would be doing the same.. and that is what the early church was doing, until the false teachers came along.

St. Peter wrote of the false teachers "they will introduce destructive heresies" - so it is because of the false teachings that the power of the church has been destroyed, and he said "many would follow their depraved conduct, bringing the way of truth into disrepute" - that means that because of the terrible behaviour of those who have followed the false teachings, the way of the truth has a bad reputation. That is why church has become a thing that does not attract people, when in fact it was meant to do exactly that! (John 12:32).

So it is as I explained, because churches are too busy fighting each other and being the gatekeepers of the faith, that they are preventing The Holy Spirit from moving with power in their midst. The devil reigns through lies and deceit - so that when people think wrongly about Christianity, it is the devil's ideas they are believing. When that time comes, that Christians truly do give God the power to move among them, then the devil will have no strength left. At that time the whole world will know that God is really found in Christianity. That is where people will go for living water.

 

[Serving Zion]

How can the Lord wait for Christians to be perfectly Christlike to cast the devil into the lake of fire when He already knows that they won't be perfect until Christ returns?

.. and one more thing I noticed in this question, you have said "until Christ returns". That's another piece of the problem - is that Christ is still here with us, and He always has been since the resurrection. It just so happens that not many Christians actually see Him and know Him, but He has said "wherever two or three are gathered in my name, there am I in the midst of them", and "my sheep hear my voice. I know them and they follow me".

Even the very verse we have through St. Paul in Ephesians 4:15, he says "we are to grow up in all ways into Christ, who is the head". So while he is describing us as individual parts of the corporeal "body" of Christ, he also says that Christ is the head of that body. So because Christ is spirit, who once was a single man, His spirit is meant to be visible among His corporeal body (that's to say that the spirit of Christ should be visible among Christians - just as he was saying in 1 Corinthians 14:25).

 

[HeIsRisen2018]

Hmmm, that's nice and clear, thank you!

.. so I don't think it needs to be that Christians become perfectly Christlike, but only that Christianity as a whole achieves the fullness of the stature of Christ (Ephesians 4:13). As you remember that Jesus Christ was walking around raising the dead and people were flocking to Him in masses and they were bringing the lame and sick to Him to be healed. But that isn't what the church's function is in the present day, even though it should be.

Do you remember that the woman with the blood flow was healed simply by touching the titzit of His garment? .. so it goes to show that there is such an enormous potential of power in Christ, it literally can redeem the whole world. Whereas Jesus was just one person walking around doing miracles, the reason He gave up His life is so that we would be doing the same.. and that is what the early church was doing, until the false teachers came along.

St. Peter wrote of the false teachers "they will introduce destructive heresies" - so it is because of the false teachings that the power of the church has been destroyed, and he said "many would follow their depraved conduct, bringing the way of truth into disrepute" - that means that because of the terrible behaviour of those who have followed the false teachings, the way of the truth has a bad reputation. That is why church has become a thing that does not attract people, when in fact it was meant to do exactly that! (John 12:32).

So it is as I explained, because churches are too busy fighting each other and being the gatekeepers of the faith, that they are preventing The Holy Spirit from moving with power in their midst. The devil reigns through lies and deceit - so that when people think wrongly about Christianity, it is the devil's ideas they are believing. When that time comes, that Christians truly do give God the power to move among them, then the devil will have no strength left. At that time the whole world will know that God is really found in Christianity. That is where people will go for living water.

So then does that mean until Christ (physically in the flesh) returns to earth and every eye will see Him and every knee will bow that the devil will continue deceiving people until everybody is a believer?

 

[Serving Zion]

So then does that mean until Christ (physically in the flesh) returns to earth and every eye will see Him and every knee will bow that the devil will continue deceiving people until everybody is a believer?

Well I never like to speculate about future events, because quite simply, the future belongs to God and He has guarded that knowledge through prophecy (which is a way for Him to say things that nobody can make sense of except those to whom He has revealed it).

So I always stick to the solid truths: things we can know for certain. You asked why the devil has not been cast into the lake of fire already. That's one of those questions of solid truth. The solid truth of the answer is that the religion of Christianity is able to be misrepresented by the devil (because the devil is the father of lies and people are still able to believe lies about Christianity).

So when I gave the answer to your question, I also said that the devil will have no place on earth when the truth of Christianity becomes so clear that nobody can believe wrongly about it anymore.

I know that most Western Christians have an expectation that Christianity cannot achieve the status of the fullness of Christ unless Jesus' 2,000 year old body physically returns to earth, but I think that is expressly the opposite of the hope of Christianity that is written in Ephesians 4:11-13. That's why I have said that it is the best answer to your question.

However, when you remember the story of Noah - how God was going to bring an end to all flesh if it weren't for Noah, then there might also be a possibility that humankind will again become so wicked that there won't even be a Noah in those days. The similar thing is found in the story of Job and of Lot pleading for Sodom and Gomorrah.

So, I am sorry that I cannot just give you a simple answer of what will definitely happen in the future, because I am too honest to do that. I can only tell you there is a possibility that either way will happen, and that the true hope of Christianity is for the church to reach the full stature of Christ on earth. The antichrist spirit produces the opposite hope - that the earth will be utterly destroyed to make way for a new one (because John 10:10 says "the thief comes to steal kill and destroy but I have come that they may have life overflowing").

 

[SkyWriting]

Revelation 20:10 "And the devil, who deceived them, was thrown into the lake of burning sulfur, where the beast and false prophet had been thrown. They will be tormented day and night forever and ever."

In God's view, it has already happened.
Our future days are already part of God's memories.
If you wondering why God hasn't judged you yet, it's because he made other plans for your coming days or minutes left.

 

[HeIsRisen2018]

In God's view, it has already happened.
Our future days are already part of God's memories.
If you wondering why God hasn't judged you yet, it's because he made other plans for your coming days or minutes left.

Surprisingly enough, that makes sense actually.

 

[SkyWriting]

Surprisingly enough, that makes sense actually.

I am blessed with getting the big picture clearly eventually, but people still do hate me on many topics.

 

[HeIsRisen2018]

I am blessed with getting the big picture clearly eventually, but people still do hate me on many topics.

Really? Why?

 

[daninthelionsden]

agree - God wants to give people a chance to repent and turn to God - if this happened now many would go to hell

God has already decided the perfect time to end this age and start the new age of eternal life with God

it would be nice for us if that time was now - but thinking of the lost it is better for them to have the chance for eternal life

I was asking the Lord why He tarries so long and that I wanted Him to return now. He impressed deeply into my heart "And whom would you have Me leave out of My net I have cast over the Earth?" I quickly retreated and replied "You come when you say the time is right. I will wait.

 

[Truthfrees]

I was asking the Lord why He tarries so long and that I wanted Him to return now. He impressed deeply into my heart "And whom would you have Me leave out of My net I have cast over the Earth?" I quickly retreated and replied "You come when you say the time is right. I will wait.

wow - this is powerful - thanks for sharing