WHY did God allow the Jews to suffer the Holocaust?

[John Zain]

Okay, so are you saying that ...
God did not do what He threatened the Israelites He would do?

No, that wouldn't be quite accurate ...
because He did disperse them to the four corners of the world,
and He did leave them in their original state of spiritual blindness/deafness,
i.e. He said He would not heal them of this (even though we know He wanted to).

You are not distinguishing between God's "chosen people" vs. everyone else.
We're talking about God's covenant people here.

Other people were/are allowed disasters to fall upon them all the time!
This has nothing to do with God and His special covenant with His "chosen people".

 

[celo]

John Zain, did you know that 93.21% of statistics are made up on the spot?

The problem with your...theory.... is that Jews were not the only victims, and the holocaust was not the only episode of mass murder during that time period.

Overall, an estimated 60 million people lost their lives in WWII. Between 22 to 25 million of these deaths were military, the rest being civilian.

Although I am Jewish, the 6 million Jews that were killed pales in comparison by a factor of 10. What made the Holocaust different was only that it was a specific targeting of several demographic groups, by a supposedly 'civilized' society, and that outright total extermination was attempted. When one looks at the total deaths however, this difference becomes less important. Deaths are deaths. Furthermore, Stalin murdered perhaps 20 million of his own civilians in a similar manner (although it came off as 'less evil').

Roughly 30 years earlier, 35 million people lost their lives during WWI, both civilian and military.

The 1918 flu epidemic killed between 50-130 million. While unrelated to war, it seems a fallacy to come up with the 'prophecy' that predicted 6 million Jewish deaths, in a generation where between 145 and 225 million people lost their lives unnaturally.

My point is that a 'prediction' of roughly 2.6% of the total deaths in that era is hardly a prophecy.

My other point is that it is almost shameful to attribute the other 54 million deaths, (90% of total) to only have existed to allow the prophecy of 6 million Jews, (10% of total) to take place. This is disrespectful to those dead who were either uninvolved, or lost their lives stopping Hitler and Japan.

Actually, because WWI set the stage for WWII, the number of Jews killed really represents only about 6% of total.

To accept your theory is to acknowledged that God is highly inefficient. What kind of God, in your justification of your theory, would have a collateral damage rate of 94% in fulfilling his prophecy? Even we were FAR more efficient in Iraq. Is the American military, in your view, thus more efficient than God in killing on target?

I cannot see how you justify your theory with the above. Maybe it wasn't a fulfilled prophecy?

Also, these ugly affairs ended with the consolidation of the world's Jewish population, and with the state of Israel. It would seem then that God failed to spread and disperse the Jews, if I read your post correctly. If not, then ignore this paragraph.

If you want to discuss why the holocaust actually did occur, I am more than willing to do so. But to ask why God allowed it to happen is pretty moot. If you must ask, then add the Holocaust to the very long list of human atrocities throughout recorded history. If you must retrofit the scripture as an explanation, then you must retrofit the scripture to account for many more events. This seems like selective reading and retrofitting to me.


The fact that you say that 99.9% of people have missed it, and that you have asked a lot is telling. That doesn't strike you as weird how almost every person you ask is 'wrong,' and you are correct? What special information are you privy to that 99.9% of others are not?

 

[handy]

The fact that you say that 99.9% of people have missed it, and that you have asked a lot is telling. That doesn't strike you as weird how almost every person you ask is 'wrong,' and you are correct? What special information are you privy to that 99.9% of others are not?

This is a good point... one that bears repeating.

Good post all around, but I especially liked that last part. :yes

 

[celo]

Unfortunately you've missed it as well. Don't be an anti-Semite. The Holocaust was not about the victims, for Jews were only the dominate group of many that were targeted. The Holocaust was allowed in order to shame us. It exposed to the world how easily the secular Christian societies of the West could and do bend when confronted by evil. While expected of pagans, it is hubris to think we are somehow immune to dehumanizing others for any and every reason. The Holocaust was allowed to make us aware of the ultimate consequences to which our own prejudices aspire.

Come on man, really? That seems a little self-centered to me. Let me rephrase what your wrote, and correct me if I got it wrong:

35 million people died in WWI, which directly resulted in Hitler coming to power and the start of WWII, in which over 60 million people lost their lives. These 89 million deaths occurred so that 6 million Jews could be murdered, so that we in the West could learn a valuable lesson of the dangers of secular appeasement, and feel a little bit of shame.

That seems like a little bit of hubris on your part. I don't mean to attack you, but I want to be sure you know what you are really saying and if you actually believe it.

Unfortunately, it would also seem that this 95-million-dead-lesson was in vain.

* 1947 Partition of India: 500,000 - 1,000,000 dead.
* Republic of China and Tibetan murders, forgot the year but its after WWII.
* Expulsion of Germans after WWII: 500,000 - 2,000,000 dead.
* Vietnam: VC and NVA killed 3,000-6000 civilians in the Tet Offensive.
* Zanzibar, 1964: 2,000 - 20,000 killed.
* Guatemala, 1968-1996: 200,000 killed, 1,000,000 + displaced.
* Pakistan, Bangladesh War of 1971: 300,000 - 3,000,000 killed.
* Burundi 1972 and 1993 genocide. Don't know the numbers.
* North Korea: millions +.
* Equatorial Guinea: 1968-1979: 80,000 killed (1/3 of population)
* East Timor, Indonesian occupation: 60,000 - 200,000 killed.
* Sabra-Shatila, Lebanon, 1982: 700 - 3,500 killed.
* Soviets in Afghanistan, 1972-1982
* Ethiopian Red Terror: 150,000 - 500,000 killed.
* Iraqi Kurds
* DRC, Congo Civil War
* Rwanda, 1994: 800,000 killed.
* Cambodia, Khmer Rouge: 1,700,000 Killed.
* Darfur, Sudan 2003-2009/10: 175,000 - 460,000 killed, 450,000 displaced.

That list is not exhaustive. But maybe we need more non-US genocide so that us westerners can finally learn our lesson!


"While expected of pagans, it is hubris to think we are somehow immune to dehumanizing others for any and every reason."

Of course it's hubris, being as you just dehumanized pagans. And I am your nemesis! Haha, just kidding on the nemesis part. ;)

 

[jasoncran]

is he actually saying THAT THE SHOAH WAS A JUDGMENT?

IT WASNT. many jews did live.if god wanted to judge jews worldwide no army could save them. it was man being man and satan along with him.

 

[John Zain]

Yup, 99.9% ... you all seem to be missing the point of the whole thing.

You are NOT distinguishing between God's "chosen people" vs. everyone else.
We're talking about God's covenant people here ... the promises, the covenants, etc.
We're talking about God fulfilling all of His THREAT PROMISES to His chosen people.

Know about guardian angels protecting those who WILL (later) inherit salvation (Heb.1:14)?

God does NOT protect heathens ... unless they are the elect.
So, all of your stats are irrelevant to THIS discussion.
Start another thread for those ...
and you can weep and wail for the heathens all you want.

God protected the Israelites from their powerful neighbors all the time
... wiping out everything in sight (as a deterrent to the enemies)
... until His patience finally ran out AND His main point had been made.
And what do you think that was?

 

[celo]

Yup, 99.9% ... you all seem to be missing the point of the whole thing.

You are NOT distinguishing between God's "chosen people" vs. everyone else.
We're talking about God's covenant people here ... the promises, the covenants, etc.
We're talking about God fulfilling all of His THREAT PROMISES to His chosen people.

Know about guardian angels protecting those who WILL (later) inherit salvation (Heb.1:14)?

God does NOT protect heathens ... unless they are the elect.
So, all of your stats are irrelevant to THIS discussion.
Start another thread for those ...
and you can weep and wail for the heathens all you want.

God protected the Israelites from their powerful neighbors all the time
... wiping out everything in sight (as a deterrent to the enemies)
... until His patience finally ran out AND His main point had been made.
And what do you think that was?

I have no idea what point was made. I had no idea God's patience finally ran out. I had no idea God caused WW1 and WW2 to make his point via Nazi genocide. How involved was God? Did he create the environment for Hitler and antisemitism to exist? Or was he involved more logistically, such as suggesting Hitler use hydrogen cyanide in the form of Zyklon B? At what point did his patience run out? 1914? 1936? How do you know these things? Did you use your human qualities of pattern recognition to retrofit the scripture, mixed with your blatant bigotry for those whom are different? Or did God tell you, while forgetting to tell 99.9% of the population?

I'll quote Robert Ebert, "If you have to ask what it symbolizes, it didn't."

If there was a point, it wasn't very clear, and utterly failed reach his target audience, other than one person on the earth in the year 2012, 67 years after the fact.

The death of 95 million people to get one's point across to 1 person 67 years later is.... I don't even know. Terrible? Inefficient? Absolutely pointless and evil?

Then why was Israel created in the aftermath of WWII? Why wasn't Hitler, (or God's chosen actor to fulfill his will, in your view) successful in wiping out the Jews? If he was, I certainty wouldn't be around.

I think you missed my point. My point was that even if this was a prophetic fulfillment, if certainly failed, and resulted in the consolidation of many of the world's Jews in the state of Israel, not spreading them to the four points. The inference to my point being that to one who believes in an all-powerful God, a failed prophecy doesn't really go well with this belief. This created a logical paradox. Furthermore, do you really believe in a God that is so terrible at communication that no one, except for you, understood what he did?

There are two solutions to this paradox.

1. You are some kind of holy man that was chosen by God to be the only person with this divine knowledge, while 99.9% of everyone else is wrong.

2. You are delusional and have repeated the same mistake of many before you whom have connected dots that didn't exist or possessed any correlative qualities.


And my 'stats' are relevant. My 'stats' (if you want to call 95,000,000 prematurely dead humans 'my stats') show that to accept this as prophecy, one must also accept that God is highly inefficient, and is quite evil by accepting a 96% collateral damage.


My point was to ask you how justify this.

"God does NOT protect heathens ... unless they are the elect.
So, all of your stats are irrelevant to THIS discussion.
Start another thread for those ...
and you can weep and wail for the heathens all you want."

And I see how you justify it.


You see, I tend to value human life, and am quite against the mass murder of civilians, of any country or religion. Clearly we have different values, so this discussion won't be going anywhere constructive. I hope that your seeming indifference to 'heathen' (aka, people who are different from the religion/culture you were born into) human life changes one day. I seriously hope that this is a misinterpretation on my part, or that you exaggerated for dramatic effect.

Being the agnostic/atheist, shouldn't I be the one lacking morals? :

 

[celo]

God does NOT protect heathens ... unless they are the elect.
So, all of your stats are irrelevant to THIS discussion.
Start another thread for those ...
and you can weep and wail for the heathens all you want.

Do you know who Maximilian Kolbe was?

He was 1 of the ~59,999,999 other 'heathens' who died in WWII. He was canonized by Pope John Paul II for volunteering to die in place of a complete stranger in one of 'God's Prophecy-Fulfillment' camps, more commonly known by the 99.9% of people who aren't privy to your revelation as Auschwitz.

This was no ordinary and relatively quick asphyxiation and cyanide poisoning death either. He was locked inside one of the starvation cells, and left for dead. He was also a Christian Priest, though I forget the denomination but I'll assume Catholic?

But, as you mentioned, "God does NOT protect heathens" So Mr. Kolbe, in your opinion, starved to death just to make the point that only 1 person on this earth, you, would know that God's patience with the Jews was running thin? I am sure his family would love to know the truth. Why don't you write them? Let them know his death wasn't in vain!

I am sorry, but the cavalier dismissal of unimaginable suffering involving more people than you will ever see or meet in your life all in the name of your personal delusions is shocking. If I was God, and I had people with your attitude worshiping me and putting words in my mouth with false and unfounded representation, I would be depressed, and would sue you for slandering my good name.

Honestly, it's comments like yours that make me turn from religion whenever I am curious to learn what religion is about and what it could offer me, the main reason I joined this forum. I hope you are in the minority, as it doesn't make your religion very attractive and really discredits the whole notion of religion offering morality. Absolutely no offense intended towards the Christian faith as a whole, sorry for the rant. I have seen a little bit of suffering and it really gets to me when people with self-centered arrogance dismiss it and make it all about them, when they have no idea what that kind of suffering is (I don't either).

 

[Sinthesis]

Come on man, really? That seems a little self-centered to me. Let me rephrase what your wrote, and correct me if I got it wrong:

35 million people died in WWI, which directly resulted in Hitler coming to power and the start of WWII, in which over 60 million people lost their lives. These 89 million deaths occurred so that 6 million Jews could be murdered, so that we in the West could learn a valuable lesson of the dangers of secular appeasement, and feel a little bit of shame.

That seems like a little bit of hubris on your part. I don't mean to attack you, but I want to be sure you know what you are really saying and if you actually believe it.

Unfortunately, it would also seem that this 95-million-dead-lesson was in vain.

* 1947 Partition of India: 500,000 - 1,000,000 dead.
* Republic of China and Tibetan murders, forgot the year but its after WWII.
* Expulsion of Germans after WWII: 500,000 - 2,000,000 dead.
* Vietnam: VC and NVA killed 3,000-6000 civilians in the Tet Offensive.
* Zanzibar, 1964: 2,000 - 20,000 killed.
* Guatemala, 1968-1996: 200,000 killed, 1,000,000 + displaced.
* Pakistan, Bangladesh War of 1971: 300,000 - 3,000,000 killed.
* Burundi 1972 and 1993 genocide. Don't know the numbers.
* North Korea: millions +.
* Equatorial Guinea: 1968-1979: 80,000 killed (1/3 of population)
* East Timor, Indonesian occupation: 60,000 - 200,000 killed.
* Sabra-Shatila, Lebanon, 1982: 700 - 3,500 killed.
* Soviets in Afghanistan, 1972-1982
* Ethiopian Red Terror: 150,000 - 500,000 killed.
* Iraqi Kurds
* DRC, Congo Civil War
* Rwanda, 1994: 800,000 killed.
* Cambodia, Khmer Rouge: 1,700,000 Killed.
* Darfur, Sudan 2003-2009/10: 175,000 - 460,000 killed, 450,000 displaced.

That list is not exhaustive. But maybe we need more non-US genocide so that us westerners can finally learn our lesson!


"While expected of pagans, it is hubris to think we are somehow immune to dehumanizing others for any and every reason."

Of course it's hubris, being as you just dehumanized pagans. And I am your nemesis! Haha, just kidding on the nemesis part. ;)

I know what I wrote, and I do believe it. Unfortunately you do not understand what I wrote as your attempt to rephrase my position demonstrates. When you replaced "secular Christian" with "secular appeasement" you changed the meaning and lost the point.

The Holocaust happened, thus it was by definition allowed by God, along with all the other atrocities you have listed, and more. Yet just as with natural disasters, we don't really know why God allows these things to happen, but in reflecting on the past we can learn for the future, provided we identify with our forefathers. As Christians, any shame we feel from historic genocidal tragedies is in direct proportion to how we relate ourselves to the perpetrators. In the case of the Holocaust, the atrocities happened within societies very similar to our own, i.e. the Christian West. Other cultures committing atrocities are not necessarily going to resonate in the West because we don't identify with the guilty very well.

So what lesson can we derive from all this evil? Was all the meaningless suffering in vain? History tells us it will be if we do not learn from it. Better then to accept the fact that the horror of the Holocaust was brought about within societies much like ours, and resolve to stand guard against its return by proclaiming "Never again!"

As for your aspirations to being my nemesis, I reject 99.9% of all applicants. Good luck!ing

 

[celo]

I know what I wrote, and I do believe it. Unfortunately you do not understand what I wrote as your attempt to rephrase my position demonstrates. When you replaced "secular Christian" with "secular appeasement" you changed the meaning and lost the point.

The Holocaust happened, thus it was by definition allowed by God, along with all the other atrocities you have listed, and more. Yet just as with natural disasters, we don't really know why God allows these things to happen, but in reflecting on the past we can learn for the future, provided we identify with our forefathers. As Christians, any shame we feel from historic genocidal tragedies is in direct proportion to how we relate ourselves to the perpetrators. In the case of the Holocaust, the atrocities happened within societies very similar to our own, i.e. the Christian West. Other cultures committing atrocities are not necessarily going to resonate in the West because we don't identify with the guilty very well.

So what lesson can we derive from all this evil? Was all the meaningless suffering in vain? History tells us it will be if we do not learn from it. Better then to accept the fact that the horror of the Holocaust was brought about within societies much like ours, and resolve to stand guard against its return by proclaiming "Never again!"

As for your aspirations to being my nemesis, I reject 99.9% of all applicants. Good luck!ing

My bad, I see what you mean now and what you said is very reasonable. I definitely did misunderstand what you wrote. I was worked up over the other dudes response, so I admit I was almost looking for offense in your post when there was none. For that, and for putting words in your mouth, I apologize.

And to John Zain, while I stand by the points I made, I must also apologize to you for my venomous tone and rhetoric. I definitely do not know you, and even if I did, who am I to judge another individual for their beliefs?

 

[John Zain]

>>>>

 

[John Zain]

But, as you mentioned, "God does NOT protect heathens"
I am sorry, but the cavalier dismissal of unimaginable suffering involving more people than you will ever see or meet in your life all in the name of your personal delusions is shocking. If I was God, and I had people with your attitude worshiping me and putting words in my mouth with false and unfounded representation, I would be depressed, and would sue you for slandering my good name.
Honestly, it's comments like yours that make me turn from religion whenever I am curious to learn what religion is about and what it could offer me, the main reason I joined this forum. I hope you are in the minority, as it doesn't make your religion very attractive and really discredits the whole notion of religion offering morality. Absolutely no offense intended towards the Christian faith as a whole, sorry for the rant. I have seen a little bit of suffering and it really gets to me when people with self-centered arrogance dismiss it and make it all about them, when they have no idea what that kind of suffering is (I don't either).

I could have said ... God does NOT protect the non-elect of this world!

Your problem is a common one these days caused by ignorance.

I'm just reporting the facts ... without being sidetracked by emotion.

These are the facts, as revealed by the Lord God Almighty in His Scriptures:

sin >>> spiritual death >>> separation from God >>> spiritual blindness/deafness >>> etc.

 

[Stormcrow]

We're talking about God's covenant people here.

God's first covenant (Law) was nailed to the cross with Christ, the totality of which was destroyed with the Temple and Jerusalem in 70 AD.

Believing Jews and Gentiles are God's new covenant people and we are called His church, and have been for 2,000 years now.

The Jews were targeted because a half-Jewish leftist politician (Hitler) needed a scapegoat for Germany's ills.

 

[Stormcrow]

God allows these things to happen...

In the case of Hitler, Neville Chamberlain allowed these things to happen when the British chose appeasement over confrontation.

All that's necessary for the forces of evil to win in the world is for enough good men to do nothing. --Edmund Burke

God has always chosen to work through men, even coming to earth Himself as a man to engage us. Why doesn't He stop such evil?

I'm sure He will ask every one of us that same question when we stand before Him.

 

[celo]

The Jews were targeted because a half-Jewish leftist politician (Hitler) needed a scapegoat for Germany's ills.

Agreed. Hitler also was hardened in the trenches in WWI. He absolutely despised any talks of peace and wanted to destroy the French and the British. In fact, he was adamantly opposed to the fraternization that occurred with the enemy during and sporadically following the Christmas truce of 1914, in which British and German soldiers briefly adopted the 'live and let live' approach. There even were a few soccer games, exchanging of gifts, and mutual carols sung on both sides.

Hitler blamed Germany's backing down and eventual armistice on the Jews in the German high command, for some reason.

Heydrich and Himmler were arguably more instrumental in implementing the Holocaust, despite Hitler's antisemitism.

But you hit the nail on the head. Hitler and the Nazi party were so appealing to the proud German people because they offered to restore their nation's pride, nationalism, and economy. That is what I meant by WWI setting the stage for WWII and the Holocaust. The treaty of Versailles really destroyed Germany's economy, pride, and military and political strength. Hitler offered, and quite successfully restored Germany as a major power to be respected....for a time.

And what better way to do so than by blaming all of Germany's ills on the Jews? This gave the German people a reason not to blame themselves, and to circumvent the shame of WWI.

While horrible, there were so many events that 'rationally' led to the Holocaust that to attribute it to divine prophecy would require a substantial amount of evidence and presupposition. The events that allowed this to happen occurred well before WWII, and arguably well before WWI as well.

Zain would need to establish and offer a divine explanation to far more than the Holocaust if his conjecture is to be taken seriously.

 

[celo]

God has always chosen to work through men, even coming to earth Himself as a man to engage us. Why doesn't He stop such evil?

I'm sure He will ask every one of us that same question when we stand before Him.

Excellent point.

 

[Pard]

Why did the leaders decide to sit on their hands? Why did the germans let Hitler take over? Why did the Russians side with the germans? Why didn't the german people stand up for their neighbors who were being taken away? Why did the germans rat out their jewish neighbors? Why did the italians wish to join in such wicked deeds? Why did the Japanese join the germans? Why did the Japanese see cause to attack America? Why did the Japanese see cause to enslave the Chinese?

Lots of answers to those questions and they probably all boil down to a few things. I just don't know what, but I can imagine they involve people being faithless, spineless, tolerant of injustice, hateful, bigots, power hungry, and the whole lot of that such stuff... and that all boils down to sin. Hah there we go I did know the answer after all!

And whoever said "God does not protect heathens" is wrong. God is brought to sorrow whenever anyone dies. In Isaiah He shed tears for the Moabites even as He brought them to their destruction, because He does love even the heathens.

 

[reba]

One thing that happened was folks had to register their guns.. Things happen a little bit at a time...

 

[John Zain]

And whoever said "God does not protect heathens" is wrong. God is brought to sorrow whenever anyone dies. In Isaiah He shed tears for the Moabites even as He brought them to their destruction, because He does love even the heathens.

You can call me "Whoever", but whoever calls me late for dinner is in trouble.

God does not protect heathens who are not destined to be His elect
... or don't you fancy Hebrews 1:14?

Just because blue is true doesn't mean God isn't brought to sorrow whenever anyone dies.

 

[Pard]

What do angels sent to aid the saved have to do with God not helping the unsaved? I don't see how one is mutually exclusive of the other. Maybe I'm wrong, dunno, enlighten me if I am wrong. But I got to say when I read the Old Testament I do see many heathens being aided by God, albeit to His own purpose which has nothing to do with their end-all-be-all prosperity and safety.