K
King James
Guest
Everything was preplanned with purpose where God knew the outcome of everything before anything was initiated.
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Desire to be a vessel of honor unto the Lord Jesus Christ?
Join For His Glory for a discussion on how
https://christianforums.net/threads/a-vessel-of-honor.110278/
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Taking the time to pray? Christ is the answer in times of need
https://christianforums.net/threads/psalm-70-1-save-me-o-god-lord-help-me-now.108509/
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Depending upon the Holy Spirit for all you do?
Read through the following study by Tenchi for more on this topic
https://christianforums.net/threads/without-the-holy-spirit-we-can-do-nothing.109419/
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How are famous preachers sometimes effected by sin?
Join Sola Scriptura for a discussion on the subject
https://christianforums.net/threads/anointed-preaching-teaching.109331/#post-1912042
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Why did God Create Us With Freedom of Choice?
- Thread starter Rollo Tamasi
- Start date
Everything was preplanned with purpose where God knew the outcome of everything before anything was initiated.
K
King James
Guest
No reason to think that dinosaurs didn't live with humans.
God made us with the ability to listen to him to develop a perfect godly will. He works in us to will and to do of his good pleasure.
God's will in man was corrupted by Satan. By Genesis 6:5 man's will had him and animals facing extension.
God intervened and somewhat restored the will of man (got between man and satan). After the flood, man no longer was only evil continually, but was partially restored.
Every time man went downhill God stepped in. If a manufacturing robot gets off course, in it's operation, it has to be reset to the job at hand. God reset the course of man: at the garden, at the flood, at Babel, etc...... and finally by making a new heart available for us. We are even able to have the Mind of Christ.
Man's will does not seem so great. His will in us is the goal. Even with a new heart, there is still a battle with the flesh.
eddif
God's will in man was corrupted by Satan. By Genesis 6:5 man's will had him and animals facing extension.
God intervened and somewhat restored the will of man (got between man and satan). After the flood, man no longer was only evil continually, but was partially restored.
Every time man went downhill God stepped in. If a manufacturing robot gets off course, in it's operation, it has to be reset to the job at hand. God reset the course of man: at the garden, at the flood, at Babel, etc...... and finally by making a new heart available for us. We are even able to have the Mind of Christ.
Man's will does not seem so great. His will in us is the goal. Even with a new heart, there is still a battle with the flesh.
eddif
I woke up knowing I know very little.
We are in Him
He is in us
He overshadows us
He is our rear guard
He is our shield
Wings over us
He carries us
He is along side us
He is the sacrifice for our sins
He is our savior
He is in heaven representing us
etc.
My little piddling thought of him being between us and satan may be just a lot lacking. All that God is takes care of us (I even doubt I can tell the difference in the different ways God looks over us).
Mans will failed in the garden (Eve ate the fruit first)
Adam took the fruit from Eve (he did not say no)
Man killed his brother
Tried to have a promised heir by a handmaid
Answered yes almoist every time to satan (Joseph, IMHO. is a type of Christ and he did a little better.
Moses said yes to his anger and failed to enter the promised land
Man failed to say no to their lust when seeing the women in the promised land
etc.
We tend to exalt our will, but if you listen you learn it is His will that will win.
eddif
We are in Him
He is in us
He overshadows us
He is our rear guard
He is our shield
Wings over us
He carries us
He is along side us
He is the sacrifice for our sins
He is our savior
He is in heaven representing us
etc.
My little piddling thought of him being between us and satan may be just a lot lacking. All that God is takes care of us (I even doubt I can tell the difference in the different ways God looks over us).
Mans will failed in the garden (Eve ate the fruit first)
Adam took the fruit from Eve (he did not say no)
Man killed his brother
Tried to have a promised heir by a handmaid
Answered yes almoist every time to satan (Joseph, IMHO. is a type of Christ and he did a little better.
Moses said yes to his anger and failed to enter the promised land
Man failed to say no to their lust when seeing the women in the promised land
etc.
We tend to exalt our will, but if you listen you learn it is His will that will win.
eddif
enlightened
Member
The LORD GOD gave Adam free will to chose between good and evil, and a Commandment to test this will, in order to be able to judge him and take away his ownership of GOD'S Garden, if Adam chose to do the
evil. God did not know if Adam would sin (if HE did, then HIS promise to Adam of a perpetual life for obedience to the Commandment was an empty one HE would never have to fulfill), but HE did need a way to see
Adam would believe HIS WORD (the Commandment) or not.
Davies
Member
Hi enlightened,
We know from reading the Bible, that God is eternal and knows everything. Why else would the Trinity agree to the plan of redemption before the foundation of the world? I would hold that God knew very well what Adam and Eve would do. He permitted it, just as He permitted Satan to take everything from Job except his life. Why did God allow the freedom of choice?
Romans 11:32
New King James Version (NKJV)
32 For God has committed them all to disobedience, that He might have mercy on all.
I'm not sure what promise you refer to when you said, "then HIS promise to Adam of a perpetual life for obedience to the Commandment," but if that promise was made, it was answered in Jesus Christ who is our perpetual righteousness.
1 John 3:19-20
New King James Version (NKJV)
19 And by this we know[a] that we are of the truth, and shall assure our hearts before Him. 20 For if our heart condemns us, God is greater than our heart, and knows all things.
1 Peter 1:20
New King James Version (NKJV)
20 He indeed was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you
- Davies
enlightened
Member
So you believe the LORD GOD gave Adam a promise of eternal life for disobedience even though HE knew he would never have to honor it? It would be like telling your child (if you have one) that he (she) could live in DisneyLand if they could do an impossible task. Is this JUST, or, was GOD just teasing Adam? So you believe GOD created all of this, knowing ahead of time that most of humanity would wind up in the LAKE of FIRE. If so, then GOD created just to destroy. I don't believe that at all. I think GOD did not understand our struggle with the flesh until HE came and lived in it.
Davies
Member
Hi enlightened,
It's good to search the Scriptures to take what we believe and either confirm it, or cast it away if the Bible tells us otherwise. Romans 11:32 is very clear.
Here is another example of something impossible for man to do on his own that God has commanded:
Matthew 5:44-48
New King James Version (NKJV)
44 But I say to you, love your enemies, bless those who curse you, do good to those who hate you, and pray for those who spitefully use you and persecute you,... Therefore you shall be perfect, just as your Father in heaven is perfect.
God would have us to be perfect. Isn't this impossible without God? We can't do anything right without God. This is what we should learn from Adam and Eve. They made their decision even as they were made without sin. If we make decisions without God, we will always sin. We have the length of history to prove it. Here is another beautiful verse:
Romans 5:18-19
New King James Version (NKJV)
18 Therefore, as through one man’s offense judgment came to all men, resulting in condemnation, even so through one Man’s righteous act the free gift came to all men, resulting in justification of life. 19 For as by one man’s disobedience many were made sinners, so also by one Man’s obedience many will be made righteous.
Adam wouldn't be made righteous by the things he would do. Because of the ability of free choice, Adam would choose poorly. Adam would be made righteous by Jesus and receive the gift of His righteousness and eternal life.
Romans 5:17
New King James Version (NKJV)
17 For if by the one man’s offense death reigned through the one, much more those who receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness will reign in life through the One, Jesus Christ.)
- Davies
B
BornAgain
Guest
Yes, a great question to start a thread. It all comes down to our choices and decisions.
Luke 4:2-4
“Jesus was tempted for forty days by the devil. And in those days He ate nothing, and afterward, when they had ended, He was hungry. And the devil said to Him, ‘If You are the Son of God, command this stone to become bread.’ But Jesus answered him, saying, ‘It is written, “Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word of God.â€
The first test was tempting Jesus (who was extremely hungry) to turn stones into bread. Jesus (God in the flesh) quoted Scripture to defeat Satan. Isn’t that interesting? Jesus could have snapped His fingers and said, ‘Be gone; leave Me alone!†But instead He used Scripture to defeat Satan’s first test. We need to realize the importance of using the Word of God.
This is the best and most likely reason. Love is only love if one is free to choose.
B
BornAgain
Guest
Satan is after not only the non-Christian to keep him unsaved, but also he's after the saved to try to get him to fall from God's grace.
One of the difficulties of any discussion on this issue is "definition of terms." Let me first raise questions on the term "choose."
A cow or an cat will make choices.
The cow chooses to eat hay, corn, soy beans, and chocolate Hershey bars. (Actually I once worked in a barn near Hershey PA where a farmer did feed his cows old spoiled Hershey bars. He had a whole bin of them.)
The cat loves to eat fish.
How much does a cow choose and how much does a cat choose? If you reverse it and try to feed the cow some fish, the cow will not choose to eat the fish even if he (oops, make that she) is starving.
So then, does the cow make choices? I see no reason to deny that cows make choices. A cow can choose all sorts of things. A cow can choose to chase little kids out of the meadow, or follow the farmer through the barn. Not all cows will make such choices. Can a cow actually jump over the moon? I have yet to see cows jump over a small fence let alone the moon. Then again a man cannot chooses to "jump" over the moon either.
The point I am making is that both cows and men are limited in their choices of what they can do by their nature. In theology, the big issue is what is human nature like.
--- At the one end, some believe that man, in Adam, fell into sin. These people would quote scripture like Psa 51:5, "Behold, I was brought forth in iniquity; And in sin did my mother conceive me." They would quote passages from Romans 5, and many other places to show scripture that Man is a sinner by nature.
--- Some secularists believe man is more of a blank slate. I do not have any scripture to demonstrate this one.
--- Finally, many are somewhere in the middle. They believe mans nature is fallen, but that man is not totally under the power of a sin nature.
I think we most people believe man makes choices, but so do cows make choices. The question becomes different when the term "free choice" is used. What does that mean. Is this the secular view that man is a blank slate, or the middle view that man is only partially affected by his sin nature? If man is only partially affected by his sin nature, can man generate some good work of his own accord?
The OP assumes that God created us with "freedom of choice." Does this also assume that the doctrine that we are totally under the power of sin (total depravity) is false? If we are not totally under the sway of our sin nature, then why does Romans say we "cannot" please God? "Rom 8:8 and they that are in the flesh cannot please God.
What do you mean by the term "free will?" and what is the difference between "Free will" and the term choice?
A cow or an cat will make choices.
The cow chooses to eat hay, corn, soy beans, and chocolate Hershey bars. (Actually I once worked in a barn near Hershey PA where a farmer did feed his cows old spoiled Hershey bars. He had a whole bin of them.)
The cat loves to eat fish.
How much does a cow choose and how much does a cat choose? If you reverse it and try to feed the cow some fish, the cow will not choose to eat the fish even if he (oops, make that she) is starving.
So then, does the cow make choices? I see no reason to deny that cows make choices. A cow can choose all sorts of things. A cow can choose to chase little kids out of the meadow, or follow the farmer through the barn. Not all cows will make such choices. Can a cow actually jump over the moon? I have yet to see cows jump over a small fence let alone the moon. Then again a man cannot chooses to "jump" over the moon either.
The point I am making is that both cows and men are limited in their choices of what they can do by their nature. In theology, the big issue is what is human nature like.
--- At the one end, some believe that man, in Adam, fell into sin. These people would quote scripture like Psa 51:5, "Behold, I was brought forth in iniquity; And in sin did my mother conceive me." They would quote passages from Romans 5, and many other places to show scripture that Man is a sinner by nature.
--- Some secularists believe man is more of a blank slate. I do not have any scripture to demonstrate this one.
--- Finally, many are somewhere in the middle. They believe mans nature is fallen, but that man is not totally under the power of a sin nature.
I think we most people believe man makes choices, but so do cows make choices. The question becomes different when the term "free choice" is used. What does that mean. Is this the secular view that man is a blank slate, or the middle view that man is only partially affected by his sin nature? If man is only partially affected by his sin nature, can man generate some good work of his own accord?
The OP assumes that God created us with "freedom of choice." Does this also assume that the doctrine that we are totally under the power of sin (total depravity) is false? If we are not totally under the sway of our sin nature, then why does Romans say we "cannot" please God? "Rom 8:8 and they that are in the flesh cannot please God.
What do you mean by the term "free will?" and what is the difference between "Free will" and the term choice?
Davies
Member
Hi mondar,
The cow is an excellent analogy. allenwynne will have to define what choice means, but it's obvious we all have the ability of choice. We choose things everyday. To have a choice, you have to have the ability to discern. Without God, this ability to discern goes right out the window, and we are still struggling with this today.
1 Corinthians 2:14
New King James Version (NKJV)
14 But the natural man does not receive the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; nor can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.
- Davies
The cow is an excellent analogy. allenwynne will have to define what choice means, but it's obvious we all have the ability of choice. We choose things everyday. To have a choice, you have to have the ability to discern. Without God, this ability to discern goes right out the window, and we are still struggling with this today.
1 Corinthians 2:14
New King James Version (NKJV)
14 But the natural man does not receive the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; nor can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.
- Davies
Agreed. If the term free will is simply defined as the ability to choose, then a cow has free will. If the ability to love defines the term "free will" and a dog loves his master, then a dog has free will. Of course then it is obvious men have that same "free will."
On the other hand, a dog and a cow is guided by their natures, then can choose whatever they want, but they will want only what is according to their nature. The cow will always choose to eat cow feed, and never cat food. So then the choice is free, but the nature of the cow means the cow will never eat fish, or meat.
So also are we humans. We have a sin nature and will never choose God. We always choose rebellion by nature. (Eph 2:3 among whom we also all once lived in the lust of our flesh, doing the desires of the flesh and of the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, even as the rest:).
My concern is that people use the term "free will" and talk about ability to choose, but what they are really talking about is not "free will" but "freedom from their sin nature."
Agreed, the natural man cannot believe because he cannot receive the things of the Spirit. But if God makes him alive, then by his nature, he will want Christ and his crosswork.
When we are in heaven, will we still be free to choose? Or will have God changed our nature so that we love and obey him sinlessly? Will that sinless love be an even greater "rape?"
Davies
Member
mondar, Free,
When we are in Heaven, we will be perfectly free to worship God perfectly. We definitely don't have that freedom now because we are not completely sanctified. All the choices we will make, then, will glorify God in thought, word, and deed. That's a thought worth meditating on.
- Davies
O
Osgiliath
Guest
Especially when you're threatened to be burned alive forever if you do not 'freely' 'choose' to 'love' Jesus.
If your "choice" is affected by such a threat that is beyond your control, is your choice really "free?" Or is that threat outside your control "the cause" of your so-called "free choice?"
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