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Desire to be a vessel of honor unto the Lord Jesus Christ?
Join For His Glory for a discussion on how
https://christianforums.net/threads/a-vessel-of-honor.110278/
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Taking the time to pray? Christ is the answer in times of need
https://christianforums.net/threads/psalm-70-1-save-me-o-god-lord-help-me-now.108509/
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Why did Jesus pray to God if he is God?
- Thread starter Riven
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- garden jesus christ prayer
Jesus came from above.
I am the living bread that came down from heaven.
He states of things that were from the distant past.
And he said to them, “I saw Satan fall like lightning from heaven
He is where He was before the world began.
And now, Father, glorify me in your presence with the glory I had with you before the world began.
Many Disciples Desert Jesus
60On hearing it, many of his disciples said, “This is a hard teaching. Who can accept it?”
61Aware that his disciples were grumbling about this, Jesus said to them, “Does this offend you? 62Then what if you see the Son of Man ascend to where he was before!
As is written in the prophets
But you, O Bethlehem Eph′rathah,
who are little to be among the clans of Judah,
from you shall come forth for me
one who is to be ruler in Israel,
whose origin is from of old,
from ancient days.
As the Spirit of Christ also testifies in the prophets
Therefore, when Christ came into the world, he said:
“Sacrifice and offering you did not desire,
but a body you prepared for me;
6with burnt offerings and sin offerings
you were not pleased.
7Then I said, ‘Here I am—it is written about me in the scroll—
I have come to do your will, my God.’
Show us the Father
Philip said, “Lord, show us the Father and that will be enough for us.”
9Jesus answered: “Don’t you know me, Philip, even after I have been among you such a long time? Anyone who has seen me has seen the Father. How can you say, ‘Show us the Father’? 10Don’t you believe that I am in the Father, and that the Father is in me? The words I say to you I do not speak on my own authority. Rather, it is the Father, living in me, who is doing his work. 11Believe me when I say that I am in the Father and the Father is in me; or at least believe on the evidence of the works themselves.
- Apr 25, 2023
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Greetings, neighbor. Jesus Christ is the only begotten Son of God. He was made of a woman, made under the law, to redeem them that were under the law, that we might receive the adoption of sons.
He was praying to his God and his Father. As it is written, this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.
Amen.
HI Riven
I've long given up on the argument that 'Jesus is God'. I find that the Scriptures teach of a trinitarian union between God and Jesus...through the Holy Spirit. It is the Holy Spirit which seems to make us all 'one'.
But, I find ample evidence that there is some separation between 'who' Jesus is and 'who' God is. I try to stick with what God has said, "This is my Son, in whom I am well pleased." For me Jesus is God's Son.
Now there is an argument made that because Jesus spoke the words, "I am", that he was attributing himself to being God. Because that's how God told Moses to identify who had sent him to them. This is the exact same action. We also must be mindful that Jesus told us that his words he spoke to us were not his own, but were the words given him by the Father to say. So I see that dialogue between Jesus and some Jewish leaders as God speaking through His Son, and not necessarily a claim about Jesus. Jesus was doing exactly what Moses did. Telling the people that the 'I am' sent him.
There are several reasons that I believe that Jesus is not God, altogether. First of all, when Isaiah introduces him to us, he refers to him as God's servant. Does God have a servant who is God? Then we read that just about every salutation that Paul writes to open his letters, implies a definite distinction between God and Jesus, in that he generally says that he is a servant of God and Jesus Christ. Finally, in the opening of John's writing of the Revelation we find that John explains to us that the things he was writing about were shown to him by Jesus who was given these things to show him by God.
The revelation from Jesus Christ, which God gave him to show his servants what must soon take place.
Now;, as I understand this simple passage it says in more explanation, that the revelation that John was getting from the angel that was speaking to him, came from Jesus Christ. But then very clearly says that the source of the revelatory information came from God...not Jesus. That God gave these revelatory words to Jesus that he might show 'his servants' (who is 'his') what must soon take place.
Finally, if Jesus is God then he knows God's timeline for the end of the age. Yet Jesus didn't know. Or he's a liar, which I choose not even to entertain.
So, my understanding is what the Scriptures say. There are three personages in heaven that are working out our salvation. It's God's plan. Given to Jesus to be worked out in his life upon the earth. It is the Holy Spirit which ties all the people of God together.
Several other issues that cause me to also question the 'Jesus is God' claim.
But suffice to say that my understanding is that there are three in heaven that testify to the truth. God. Jesus. The Holy Spirit. They are three separate and distinct personages with separate and distinct functions in God's great plan of our salvation. When I pray, I pray to God and speak with Him of my troubles and struggles and victories. I pray to Jesus in heart filled wonder and awe and eternal thankfulness that he was the faithful servant and did all that was needed to supply God's way of salvation. I pray to the Holy Spirit to guide me in my thoughts and actions.
Of course this does bring up the question, "Well, is Jesus then a created being?" I don't honestly know. We are told that he was with the Father in the beginning, but I'm pretty confident that 'the beginning' spoken of here is the creation of this realm in which we live. I say that because the Scriptures tell us that God has no beginning, so what would God's word be referring to as 'in the beginning', if it's a reference to God's beginning? So all that really tells us is that Jesus did exist before the world's foundations were set in place, but has he been eternally existent just as the one true and living God is? I don't know and I don't think the Scriptures ever make that clear.
Finally, my greatest argument is that the demons referred to Jesus as the Son of God. They don't seem to have thought that he 'was' God.
That's my take. I suppose I'll be run out as blasphemer. LOL!
God bless,
Ted
I've long given up on the argument that 'Jesus is God'. I find that the Scriptures teach of a trinitarian union between God and Jesus...through the Holy Spirit. It is the Holy Spirit which seems to make us all 'one'.
But, I find ample evidence that there is some separation between 'who' Jesus is and 'who' God is. I try to stick with what God has said, "This is my Son, in whom I am well pleased." For me Jesus is God's Son.
Now there is an argument made that because Jesus spoke the words, "I am", that he was attributing himself to being God. Because that's how God told Moses to identify who had sent him to them. This is the exact same action. We also must be mindful that Jesus told us that his words he spoke to us were not his own, but were the words given him by the Father to say. So I see that dialogue between Jesus and some Jewish leaders as God speaking through His Son, and not necessarily a claim about Jesus. Jesus was doing exactly what Moses did. Telling the people that the 'I am' sent him.
There are several reasons that I believe that Jesus is not God, altogether. First of all, when Isaiah introduces him to us, he refers to him as God's servant. Does God have a servant who is God? Then we read that just about every salutation that Paul writes to open his letters, implies a definite distinction between God and Jesus, in that he generally says that he is a servant of God and Jesus Christ. Finally, in the opening of John's writing of the Revelation we find that John explains to us that the things he was writing about were shown to him by Jesus who was given these things to show him by God.
The revelation from Jesus Christ, which God gave him to show his servants what must soon take place.
Now;, as I understand this simple passage it says in more explanation, that the revelation that John was getting from the angel that was speaking to him, came from Jesus Christ. But then very clearly says that the source of the revelatory information came from God...not Jesus. That God gave these revelatory words to Jesus that he might show 'his servants' (who is 'his') what must soon take place.
Finally, if Jesus is God then he knows God's timeline for the end of the age. Yet Jesus didn't know. Or he's a liar, which I choose not even to entertain.
So, my understanding is what the Scriptures say. There are three personages in heaven that are working out our salvation. It's God's plan. Given to Jesus to be worked out in his life upon the earth. It is the Holy Spirit which ties all the people of God together.
Several other issues that cause me to also question the 'Jesus is God' claim.
But suffice to say that my understanding is that there are three in heaven that testify to the truth. God. Jesus. The Holy Spirit. They are three separate and distinct personages with separate and distinct functions in God's great plan of our salvation. When I pray, I pray to God and speak with Him of my troubles and struggles and victories. I pray to Jesus in heart filled wonder and awe and eternal thankfulness that he was the faithful servant and did all that was needed to supply God's way of salvation. I pray to the Holy Spirit to guide me in my thoughts and actions.
Of course this does bring up the question, "Well, is Jesus then a created being?" I don't honestly know. We are told that he was with the Father in the beginning, but I'm pretty confident that 'the beginning' spoken of here is the creation of this realm in which we live. I say that because the Scriptures tell us that God has no beginning, so what would God's word be referring to as 'in the beginning', if it's a reference to God's beginning? So all that really tells us is that Jesus did exist before the world's foundations were set in place, but has he been eternally existent just as the one true and living God is? I don't know and I don't think the Scriptures ever make that clear.
Finally, my greatest argument is that the demons referred to Jesus as the Son of God. They don't seem to have thought that he 'was' God.
That's my take. I suppose I'll be run out as blasphemer. LOL!
God bless,
Ted
Hi Riven
And the most important, to me, is that God cannot die! Jesus died! And we should, each and everyone that has now received God's promise of salvation, be eternally grateful and thankful that he did. The Scriptures are quite clear that this man Jesus, who existed with God in the beginning of the creation of this realm in which we live, had to die for sin. But God cannot die! And God says that Jesus is the first born from the dead! That Jesus died doesn't seem to ever be questioned, but no one ever seems to remember that God cannot die!
God bless,
Ted
And the most important, to me, is that God cannot die! Jesus died! And we should, each and everyone that has now received God's promise of salvation, be eternally grateful and thankful that he did. The Scriptures are quite clear that this man Jesus, who existed with God in the beginning of the creation of this realm in which we live, had to die for sin. But God cannot die! And God says that Jesus is the first born from the dead! That Jesus died doesn't seem to ever be questioned, but no one ever seems to remember that God cannot die!
God bless,
Ted
- Thread starter
- #25
miamited
I think that's a very interesting perspective. I always had trouble with believing Jesus himself was God, and Christians themselves bend themselves into pretzels in order to make it so.
But Jesus prayed to God. It stands to reason that he wasn't God, hence why he prayed. It doesn't delegitinize his role in events that took place or that God sent him.
I think that's a very interesting perspective. I always had trouble with believing Jesus himself was God, and Christians themselves bend themselves into pretzels in order to make it so.
But Jesus prayed to God. It stands to reason that he wasn't God, hence why he prayed. It doesn't delegitinize his role in events that took place or that God sent him.
- Dec 11, 2010
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For Riven and miamited, here's something that I find interesting.
Now Thomas, called the Twin, one of the twelve, was not with them when Jesus came. The other disciples therefore said to him, “We have seen the Lord.” So he said to them, “Unless I see in His hands the print of the nails, and put my finger into the print of the nails, and put my hand into His side, I will not believe.” And after eight days His disciples were again inside, and Thomas with them. Jesus came, the doors being shut, and stood in the midst, and said, “Peace to you!” Then He said to Thomas, “Reach your finger here, and look at My hands; and reach your hand here, and put it into My side. Do not be unbelieving, but believing.” And Thomas answered and said to Him, “My Lord and my God!” Jesus said to him, “Thomas, because you have seen Me, you have believed. Blessed are those who have not seen and yet have believed.”
John 20:24-29 NKJV
When Thomas proclaims that Jesus is both Lord and God, Jesus did not refute him for calling Him God but rather says that anyone who believes will be blessed.
Paul E. Michael
Member
- May 24, 2022
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No.
He is God the Son in the flesh.
He was praying to God the Father.
It is of the essence of Trinitarianism, indeed.
Well, would you be able to specify an aspect of the doctrine of the Trinity that you consider problematic? Could you specify two Trinitarian propositions which you consider to be mutually contradictory?
The opportunity to try to help is appreciated, too.
Yes, He cried out to God the Father.
Because He is God the Son, not God the Father.
Hi Paul E. Michael
Right! He wasn't God...he was God the Son in the flesh. I honestly don't understand why you see some great difference in what I'm proclaiming and what you're doing. You're establishing a 'difference' between God and Jesus, but somehow because you put the word 'God' before the word 'Son', it 'explains' the differences. Really? I mean as I read your response the only difference between what I'm saying and what you're saying is the use of the word 'God' in yours. I firmly believe that Jesus is 'the Son'. Why am I only respecting God if I say 'God' the Son. God never said, "This is me, my Son."
God bless,
Ted
- Sep 10, 2021
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Hey, bro. I usually don't answer questions like this because they go round and round and I just don't have the patience.
But to answer your question,
5 Let this mind be in you which was also in Christ Jesus, 6 who, being in the form of God, did not consider it robbery to be equal with God, 7 but made Himself of no reputation, taking the form of a bondservant, and coming in the likeness of men. 8 And being found in appearance as a man, He humbled Himself and became obedient to the point of death, even the death of the cross. 9 Therefore God also has highly exalted Him and given Him the name which is above every name, 10 that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of those in heaven, and of those on earth, and of those under the earth, 11 and that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father. (Philippians 2:5-11)
The Father and the Son are two separate and distinct Beings in relation to One Another, but One in relation to man, and when Jesus took the form of a man, He subordinated Himself to the Father as an example for us to follow. Once in the form of a man, He had no choice but to pray for the Father's help in all things, for as Paul said, he had now "taken on the form of a bondservant." But after His resurrection, He returned to where He had come from and to His True and Previous form (John 16:28).
In respect to man, He was One and the Same as the God of the Old Testament, and the New Testament writers understood this:
Niblo
2024 Supporter
- Aug 16, 2019
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There is broad agreement among New Testament scholars that Yeshua (ʿalayhi as-salām) did not consider himself to be God.
Consider the following examples:
'Any case for a "high" Christology that depended on the authenticity of the alleged claims of Jesus about himself, especially in the Fourth Gospel, would indeed be precarious.' (C.F.D Moule: ‘The Origin of Christology’).
'Jesus did not claim deity for himself' (Archbishop Michael Ramsey: ‘Jesus and the Living Past’).
‘There (is) no real evidence in the earliest Jesus tradition of what could fairly he called a consciousness of divinity' (James Dunn: ‘Christology in the Making’).
‘It is no longer possible to defend the divinity of Jesus by reference to the claims of Jesus' (Brian Hebblethwaite: ‘The Incarnation’).
‘There is good evidence to suggest that (Jesus) never saw himself as a suitable object of worship, and that it is impossible to base any claim for Christ's divinity on his consciousness once we abandon the traditional portrait as reflected in a literal understanding of St. John's Gospel' (David Brown: ‘The Divine Trinity’)
Each of these scholars taught that Yeshua was both ‘wholly God’ and ‘wholly man’, but that he was not conscious of his divinity.
The Council of Basel (1431-45 A.D.) decreed:
‘Also it holds, professes and teaches that one and the same Son of God and of man, our lord Jesus Christ, is perfect in divinity and perfect in humanity; true God and true man, of a rational soul and a body; consubstantial with the Father as regards his divinity, consubstantial with us as regards his humanity; like us in all respects except for sin; begotten before the ages from the Father, and in the last days the same born according to his humanity for us and our salvation from Mary the virgin mother of God.’ (Session 13; my emphasis).
In what way could he have been ignorant of his divinity?
Highway54
Member
- Feb 23, 2023
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Great point sir. Many consider God to be evil, even though Jesus came stating clearly that he did God's will and reflected Him perfectly. When God sent Jesus, the law covenant was fulfilled and much of Jesus' teachings and actions promoted the new covenant. We no longer war, we treat others as we desire to be treated, we no longer sacrifice, these things make God appear unrighteous. When Jesus was on earth, the people tried to make him King because he was the greatest man who ever lived, and was well loved. Shortly after he went back to heaven, many people deified him, placing him above God.
Why? It has to do with satan Riven, his life is on the line since he stood in opposition to Jehovah, so his goal is to take as many as he can with him, so if he cannot convince people to worship him, then direct them to worship someone else who is not God, because if he can direct them to do that, he succeeds in causing that person to lose favor with God.
Make any sense sir?
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Hello Riven, Good question, but it is according to one's belief I would say He was Praying To His Father by the scriptures, and knowing at that time the Trinity was not established, but when Jesus said, That GOD is a Spirit, to us, this means He was again speaking of His Father, but does this make any sense? speaking of the Godhead, this is only our scriptural understanding.
Walter
journeymanisnothing
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- Mar 12, 2022
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Hello Riven.
I believe Jesus' prayers show his perfect nature as our Father is perfect.
Jesus prayed to Godhead. John chapter 10, Jesus said, I and the Father are one. Jesus out of respect, is submissive to Godhead. John chapter 7, Jesus told the fake religious leaders, He speaks what His Father told Him to speak. Jesus did His Father's will. Jesus is our advocate and high priest before the Godhead. Revelation chapter 20, Jesus will reign as King during millennium. Jesus is the judge on judgement day. After judgement day, Jesus will voluntarily submit to Godhead when He arrives after millennium is over. Revelation chapter 21, the Godhead arrives defacto to earth, Jerusalem. This is the eternity. Jesus will be the tree of life. I documented this. Jesus is God. But out of respect for Godhead, Jesus is submissive to Godhead. Get the picture. Its about respect.
- Feb 1, 2013
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4-29-23
Why Did Jesus Pray To God If He Is God?
QUESTION If Jesus was God, how could He pray to God?
ANSWER
To understand Jesus as God on earth praying to His Father in heaven, we need to realize that the eternal Father and the eternal Son had an eternal relationship before Jesus took upon Himself the form of a man. Please read John 5:19-27, particularly verse 23 where Jesus teaches that the Father sent the Son (also see John 15:10). Jesus did not become the Son of God when He was born in Bethlehem. He has always been the Son of God from eternity past, still is the Son of God, and always will be.
When Jesus, the eternal Son of God, took upon Himself sinless humanity He also took on the form of a servant, giving up His heavenly glory (Philippians 2:5-11). As the God-man, He had to learn obedience (Hebrews 5:8) to His Father as He was tempted by Satan, accused falsely by men, rejected by His people, and eventually crucified. His praying to His heavenly Father was to ask for power (John 11:41-42) and wisdom (Mark 1:35, 6:46). His praying showed His dependence upon His Father in His humanity to carry out His Father’s plan of redemption, as evidenced in Christ’s high priestly prayer in John 17. His praying demonstrated that He ultimately submitted to His Father’s will, which was to go to the cross and pay the penalty (death) for our breaking God’s law (Matthew 26:31-46). Of course, He rose bodily from the grave, winning forgiveness and eternal life for those who repent of sin and believe in Him as the Savior.
There is no problem with God the Son praying or talking to God the Father. As mentioned, they had an eternal relationship before Christ became a man. This relationship is depicted in the Gospels so we can see how the Son of God in His humanity carried out His Father’s will, and in doing so, purchased redemption for His children (John 6:38). Christ’s continual submission to His heavenly Father was empowered and kept focused through His prayer life. Christ’s example of prayer is ours to follow.
Jesus Christ was no less God on earth when praying to His Father in heaven. He was depicting how even in sinless humanity it is necessary to have a vital prayer life in order to do His Father’s will. Jesus’ praying to the Father was a demonstration of His relationship within the Trinity and an example for us that we must rely on God through prayer for the strength and wisdom we need. Since Christ, as the God-man, needed to have a vibrant prayer life, so should the follower of Christ today.
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Phoneman777
Member
- Jan 15, 2023
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Jesus was 100% man and 100% God. A wise preacher once said, if you try to explain it, you'll lose your mind, but if you refuse to believe it, you'll lose your soul.
No, Jesus wasn't schizo - He was God manifest in the flesh. God took on a new nature, that of a man. And there were times when Jesus spoke as a man ("the Son of Man can do nothing of Himself...), and other times when He spoke in the authority of the Most High ("Verily, I say unto you, before Abraham was, I AM).
As for His praying, Scripture says, "Oh Thou that hearest prayer, UNTO THEE shall all flesh come". The Almighty God Jesus Christ had taken on a fleshly nature, and having done so, He would seek often the Father in prayer.
Would God that we, too, would do the same, for the promise is, "And you will seek Me, and find Me, when you search for Me with ALL your heart".
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4-30-23
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why did jesus prayer to god if he is god, Was Jesus praying to himself? If he is God in the flesh, then who was he praying to? I know this must have something to do with the trinity, but I've always had a hard time wrapping my head around it. - Bing
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St. Joseph
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Christ was not limited in knowledge. No where does scripture back up that assertion.
GodsGrace
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Did Jesus know when the end would come?
1. Why did Jesus, the Son pray to the Father.
The answer is because we can believe in God.
John 11:42 And I knew that thou hearest me always: but because of the people which stand by I said it, that they may believe that thou hast sent me.
43 And when he thus had spoken, he cried with a loud voice, Lazarus, come forth.
2. Was the Father in Heaven, and the Son was on earth ? No, the Father was in Heaven, as was the Son. ( God was manifest in the flesh in the Son. 1 Timothy 3:16.) The Son of GO had to be lifted up, to believe on Him, so we do not die.
John 3:13 And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven.
14 And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up:
15 That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.
3. Was the Son forsaken, is that why Jesus prays to the Father ?
To fulfil scripture of Psalms 22:1, is why Jesus cries to the Father, and then we can believe that God never forsakes us, Hebrews 13:5, as we see the evidence of the Father always with the Son, John 8:29.
Psalm 22:1 My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me? why art thou so far from helping me, and from the words of my roaring?
John 8:29 And he that sent me is with me: the Father hath not left me alone; for I do always those things that please him.
Hebrews 13:5 Let your conversation be without covetousness; and be content with such things as ye have: for he hath said, I will never leave thee, nor forsake thee.
The answer is because we can believe in God.
John 11:42 And I knew that thou hearest me always: but because of the people which stand by I said it, that they may believe that thou hast sent me.
43 And when he thus had spoken, he cried with a loud voice, Lazarus, come forth.
2. Was the Father in Heaven, and the Son was on earth ? No, the Father was in Heaven, as was the Son. ( God was manifest in the flesh in the Son. 1 Timothy 3:16.) The Son of GO had to be lifted up, to believe on Him, so we do not die.
John 3:13 And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven.
14 And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up:
15 That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.
3. Was the Son forsaken, is that why Jesus prays to the Father ?
To fulfil scripture of Psalms 22:1, is why Jesus cries to the Father, and then we can believe that God never forsakes us, Hebrews 13:5, as we see the evidence of the Father always with the Son, John 8:29.
Psalm 22:1 My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me? why art thou so far from helping me, and from the words of my roaring?
John 8:29 And he that sent me is with me: the Father hath not left me alone; for I do always those things that please him.
Hebrews 13:5 Let your conversation be without covetousness; and be content with such things as ye have: for he hath said, I will never leave thee, nor forsake thee.