Why did Jesus tell people to count the cost of following Him if salvation is without cost?

[Free]

In their world, persecution was a real price. In our world, it’s not.

If you mean the western world, then that is correct. Christians are still the most persecuted people group in the world, as you may know.

Again, salvation is as free as conceiving a child or finding your sweetheart for life. You cannot buy either. But from the point of accepting them, you will begin to pay. We can focus on how our baby was free or on how our sweetheart came to love us for free, but that is for one, narcissism pure and for two, likely to render us less likely to realize the price.

So, were the writers of the NT, inspired by God, wrong in saying that salvation is free? Were they narcissistic? Did it make them less likely to realize the price?

If we don’t pay the price, the child, the sweetheart and salvation are in danger of suffering neglect with the real consequences of losing the “free” gift.

Your argument actually implies that once God saves us, it is up to us to finish the work on our own. But Paul argues strongly against that in Galatians. Can we actually lose our salvation? It is God who gives us the free gift and it is God who will bring it to completion (Phil 1:6).

 

[WIP]

If you talked to a man who lost his job because he was a christian, would you feel you suffered the same as he did? Isn’t there a difference?

Of course there is but does that negate to nothing any lesser loss? Like I said, "Where should one draw that line?"

10 For whoever shall keep the whole law, and yet stumble in one point, he is guilty of all.
James 2:10 NKJV

 

[Dorothy Mae]

Of course there is but does that negate to nothing any lesser loss? Like I said, "Where should one draw that line?"

10 For whoever shall keep the whole law, and yet stumble in one point, he is guilty of all.
James 2:10 NKJV

A good question. In conversation with others about your life, one should make light of your own experiences. This is good in any case.

When speaking in general to a group, I would take the position that suffering in the west because of the gospel is very limited to isolated cases although that is changing rapidly.

 

[Dorothy Mae]

If you mean the western world, then that is correct. Christians are still the most persecuted people group in the world, as you may know.


So, were the writers of the NT, inspired by God, wrong in saying that salvation is free? Were they narcissistic? Did it make them less likely to realize the price?


Your argument actually implies that once God saves us, it is up to us to finish the work on our own. But Paul argues strongly against that in Galatians. Can we actually lose our salvation? It is God who gives us the free gift and it is God who will bring it to completion (Phil 1:6).

At a recent encounter, when I asked God for understanding, He gave it and I saw the matter more deeply. As a result it seems wise to me not to engage further with you on this line. I’ve read your post, not ignoring it, but I see the deeper issues and do not see a benefit to exchanges at this point in time. I am sure you’ll feel no loss by my choosing so. Take care!

 

[Free]

At a recent encounter, when I asked God for understanding, He gave it and I saw the matter more deeply. As a result it seems wise to me not to engage further with you on this line. I’ve read your post, not ignoring it, but I see the deeper issues and do not see a benefit to exchanges at this point in time. I am sure you’ll feel no loss by my choosing so. Take care!

That is your choice, but you haven't addressed the contradiction of your position with Scripture, which a deeper understanding does not and cannot negate.

 

[Dorothy Mae]

That is your choice, but you haven't addressed the contradiction of your position with Scripture, which a deeper understanding does not and cannot negate.

Why didn’t you answer the OP question? Jesus contradicts here, not me. He says to count the cost. I didn’t make that up.

 

[eddif]

It seems that the point you're missing is that when salvation is said to be free, that only means that it is not by works, it is only by grace. But, yes, it will, in another sense, cost us all we have.

Rom 6:23 For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord. (ESV)

More and more I think we are headed in a corporate good direction, started by God.

See if you partially agree with the following. Make comments as needed to expand.

The sower going out to sow is liberal in the sowing of seed. We might as well say that it is free.

This free gift of faith is a seed. We can not make a seed, that is in God’s power area.

Faith comes by hearing the word of God. Or the seed.

The ground of our heart may take some changing. In fact it seems repentance may start the need of a new heart of flesh (John the Baptist). Got to work on stony areas. Adam tilled the Garden. Hopefully stones were cast aside, but Adam failed in complete oversight of the Garden.

With the coming of the life giving spirit that the second Adam / Jesus became; empowerment to till the garden of our heart becomes possible. 2 Peter chapter one has a list of what is added to the free Faith.

WIP Edward and others pretty much covered the realization that the author and designer of progress goes to the Godhead.

The plan of salvation has a designer. The architect gets the credit and not the builder. Our mistake is to promote ourselves to a more important role than what we actually are. The daily crucifixion of our ego / flesh is needed, and He works in us to will and do of his good pleasure.

For God so loved the world….

Mississippi redneck
eddif

 

[eddif]

Hebrews 3:3 kjv
3. For this man was counted worthy of more glory than Moses, inasmuch as he who hath builded the house hath more honour than the house.

This is the scripture I was using for the architect comment, but turns out I have run some things together. I will ask for a better comment.

We are the body that gets less credit. Through sunshades.

eddif

 

[Randy]

Whoever does not bear his own cross and come after me cannot be my disciple. 28For which of you, desiring to build a tower, does not first sit down and count the cost, whether he has enough to complete it? 29Otherwise, when he has laid a foundation and is not able to finish, all who see it begin to mock him, 30saying, ‘This man began to build and was not able to finish.’ 31Or what king, going out to encounter another king in war, will not sit down first and deliberate whether he is able with ten thousand to meet him who comes against him with twenty thousand? 32And if not, while the other is yet a great way off, he sends a delegation and asks for terms of peace. 33So therefore, any one of you who does not renounce all that he has cannot be my disciple.

Without cost from "God"
Any suffering incurred because of the testimony of Jesus would be at the hands of man who of this world.

If the world hates you, keep in mind that it hated me first. 19If you belonged to the world, it would love you as its own. As it is, you do not belong to the world, but I have chosen you out of the world. That is why the world hates you. 20Remember what I told you: ‘A servant is not greater than his master.’ If they persecuted me, they will persecute you also. If they obeyed my teaching, they will obey yours also. 21They will treat you this way because of my name, for they do not know the one who sent me. 22If I had not come and spoken to them, they would not be guilty of sin; but now they have no excuse for their sin. 23Whoever hates me hates my Father as well. 24If I had not done among them the works no one else did, they would not be guilty of sin. As it is, they have seen, and yet they have hated both me and my Father. 25But this is to fulfill what is written in their Law: ‘They hated me without reason.’

 

[WIP]

It seems that the point you're missing is that when salvation is said to be free, that only means that it is not by works, it is only by grace. But, yes, it will, in another sense, cost us all we have.

Rom 6:23 For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord. (ESV)

I would add that following Jesus and salvation are two different things.

 

[Dorothy Mae]

I would add that following Jesus and salvation are two different things.

I think Jesus doesn’t see it that way. That is, I doubt one can experience salvation and refuse to follow him and it’s OK. Is that your position? Following Jesus is an optional extra?

 

[Edward]

I think Jesus doesn’t see it that way. That is, I doubt one can experience salvation and refuse to follow him and it’s OK. Is that your position? Following Jesus is an optional extra?

That's an exceptional point. Question: can the Lord plant a seed that does not grow?

There is quite a bit of talk in scripture about people being vomited from the Lord's mouth, or Jesus may say, I never knew you and so forth, so your point has a lot of merit to it I think.

 

[Dorothy Mae]

I would add that following Jesus and salvation are two different things.

I answered this already but I venture to say that those who insist that those are two different things secretly want following (obeying) Jesus to be an optional extra. They want to be forgiven and go to Heaven but maybe do not want to obey the difficult teachings of Jesus. It is like the man who likes the wedding and the presents and the attention but is not so sure he wants to deny himself to love his beloved. When it suits, the marriage is just a piece of paper. It lets a man out of having to deny himself when it suits. That theology is suitable for such.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

That's an exceptional point. Question: can the Lord plant a seed that does not grow?

The seed is planted and even growing in Matthew 13:5-6 in the Parable of the Sower. But it withered because it had no root. Reformed theology says it wasn't really planted. I don't know how seeds grow that aren't really planted. I do know how seeds can be planted but not last because of the quality of the soil they are planted in.

 

[Dorothy Mae]

The seed is planted and even growing in Matthew 13:5-6 in the Parable of the Sower. But it withered because it had no root. Reformed theology says it wasn't really planted. I don't know how seeds grow that aren't really planted. I do know how seeds can be planted but not last because of the quality of the soil they are planted in.

Nicely said. Good analogy!

 

[eddif]

The seed is planted and even growing in Matthew 13:5-6 in the Parable of the Sower. But it withered because it had no root. Reformed theology says it wasn't really planted. I don't know how seeds grow that aren't really planted. I do know how seeds can be planted but not last because of the quality of the soil they are planted in.

Good post

IMHO
The seed has within itself the potential for life. It must however be nurtured in good ground, with water, sunshine, correct temperature, nourishment, etc.

2 Peter 1:3 kjv
3. According as his divine power hath given unto us all things that pertain unto life and godliness, through the knowledge of him that hath called us to glory and virtue:
4. Whereby are given unto us exceeding great and precious promises: that by these ye might be partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust.
5. And beside this, giving all diligence, add to your faith virtue; and to virtue knowledge;
6. And to knowledge temperance; and to temperance patience; and to patience godliness;
7. And to godliness brotherly kindness; and to brotherly kindness charity.
8. For if these things be in you, and abound, they make you that ye shall neither bebarren nor unfruitful in the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ.

Verse 8 ties the nourishment of our heart to the seed of faith.

Although the seed sown may spring up in less than favorable conditions, it will not thrive long enough to bear fruit.

Romans 1:20. Tells us to use creation to understand (in a round about way).

Parables work by revelation and not human intellect alone. The parable of the sower can be expanded.

There is winter wheat and summer wheat. When to plant which seed is important too.

The secrets of mens hearts is important so the right seeds are planted for growth in where the person is in his or her growth.

Can I do all this myself? No. He works in us to will and do of His good pleasure.

Man was made a Gardner in Eden. He was not equal with God. Read the gardening section of the book.

This is way above my carnal mind.

Mississippi redneck
eddif

 

[eddif]

Nicely said. Good analogy!

We are on the same page. Wonders are great. I saw the flag pop up while I was posting. After I posted I read your comment.

Symbolism and PaRDeS ?

Pardes (exegesis) - Wikipedia

en.m.wikipedia.org

eddif

 

[Edward]

The seed is planted and even growing in Matthew 13:5-6 in the Parable of the Sower. But it withered because it had no root. Reformed theology says it wasn't really planted. I don't know how seeds grow that aren't really planted. I do know how seeds can be planted but not last because of the quality of the soil they are planted in.

Those were seeds?! I thought it was chicken feed and fed it to the chickens. Oh no! Ah well, may as well go watch some tv...Lol

Could that be it? I don't want to have to go hoe the garden. Gardening is hard work! People are lazy. They either don't want to plant the seed or don't want to cultivate the garden. That's our job here! Man was to till the garden and not mess up.

It's like, they got the job but before their first day they decided it might be too hard, so don't show up for work. What with those guys?!

 

[Free]

I would add that following Jesus and salvation are two different things.

In what way? Scripture speaks of salvation as past (justification), present (sanctification), and future (glorification). Do you mean more like one cannot follow Jesus if they are not justified?

 

[WIP]

In what way? Scripture speaks of salvation as past (justification), present (sanctification), and future (glorification). Do you mean more like one cannot follow Jesus if they are not justified?

Part of what I'm trying to say is that following Jesus is something we do. Salvation is something God does and He does not do it because He has to do it.