Why did Jesus tell people to count the cost of following Him if salvation is without cost?

[Christ_empowered]

Sanctification is synergistic, Holy Ghost plus believer. Not at all an equal relationship but cooperative nonetheless.

 

[WIP]

I cannot find Scripture to directly support it, no more than I can find Scripture to support our being able to make ourselves holy, despite being told to be holy.

I understand your point but I must ask. When we're told that we "must be holy as God is holy," is that really a command or more of an explanation of our failings? It is impossible for us to be Holy, is it not, and that is why we so desperately need a Savior. At least that's how I look at it.

 

[Free]

Sanctification is synergistic, Holy Ghost plus believer. Not at all an equal relationship but cooperative nonetheless.

Exactly. I look at it as being similar to the writing of Scripture. It was all God-breathed, inspired by God, yet, God had each writer write in their own style, according to their level of education and ability, etc. How exactly did that work, especially when Paul says "not I, but the Lord" and "I, not the Lord"? For all we know, as the writers of the NT wrote, they might have thought they were just merely writing letters, but God was actually using them to write what He wanted written, yet, in the way that they would write them. Where does the work of the writer begin and end? Where does the work of the Holy Spirit begin and end? Or is it all one and the same?

It's incredibly complex, but so too is the work of the Spirit in believers to do what God commands believers us to do. It seems that we really don't have the ability to choose to do good without the Holy Spirit also working in us, both willing us to choose to do good and then actually doing the good.

 

[WIP]

I cannot find Scripture to directly support it, no more than I can find Scripture to support our being able to make ourselves holy, despite being told to be holy. Humility is the absence of self and total, utter reliance on God. It seems to me, then, that it is impossible to avail ourselves of ourselves without help from God. It is a state or attitude of the heart of complete reliance on God, and so, again, I don't see how we can change a state of our hearts without help from the Holy Spirit.

Humility is something that also happens to us and something we are to seek:

Deu 8:2 And you shall remember the whole way that the LORD your God has led you these forty years in the wilderness, that he might humble you, testing you to know what was in your heart, whether you would keep his commandments or not.
Deu 8:3 And he humbled you and let you hunger and fed you with manna, which you did not know, nor did your fathers know, that he might make you know that man does not live by bread alone, but man lives by every word that comes from the mouth of the LORD.
...
Deu_8:16 who fed you in the wilderness with manna that your fathers did not know, that he might humble you and test you, to do you good in the end. (ESV)

Dan_4:37 Now I, Nebuchadnezzar, praise and extol and honor the King of heaven, for all his works are right and his ways are just; and those who walk in pride he is able to humble. (ESV)

Zep 2:3 Seek the LORD, all you humble of the land, who do his just commands; seek righteousness; seek humility; perhaps you may be hidden on the day of the anger of the LORD. (ESV)


Eph 4:1 I therefore, a prisoner for the Lord, urge you to walk in a manner worthy of the calling to which you have been called,
Eph 4:2 with all humility and gentleness, with patience, bearing with one another in love, (ESV)

Gal 5:22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness,
Gal 5:23 gentleness, self-control; against such things there is no law. (ESV)

Col 3:12 Put on then, as God's chosen ones, holy and beloved, compassionate hearts, kindness, humility, meekness, and patience,

If love, gentleness, kindness, meekness, and patience are fruit of the Spirit produced from walking by the Spirit. These are changes brought about by the Spirit's work in us as we walk with him. So, considering that humility is listed along side them, I don't see how it wouldn't also be the same.

You may have done a little of what I was asking for in a round about way. But, to me humility is something we experience when we come to the realization of our true relationship to God and recognize or unholiness. I don't see humility is our reliance on God but rather the understanding we have about ourselves when we give in to Him completely. We must become humble, that is to set aside our own pride and desire to be our own god, in order to submit to Him in every part of our being. Sounds easy to say but it is extremely difficult to near impossible to achieve on our own and that is why we need our Savior.

 

[WIP]

I understand your point but I must ask. When we're told that we "must be holy as God is holy," is that really a command or more of an explanation of our failings? It is impossible for us to be Holy, is it not, and that is why we so desperately need a Savior. At least that's how I look at it.

Giving it more thought, I can see where it is also a command, although one we could not possibly fulfill. Very much the same way I see the 10 Commandments. They are both a command and an explanation of the failings of our human condition and why we need our Savior.

 

[Free]

I understand your point but I must ask. When we're told that we "must be holy as God is holy," is that really a command or more of an explanation of our failings? It is impossible for us to be Holy, is it not, and that is why we so desperately need a Savior. At least that's how I look at it.

Ah, yes, that is my point. We are commanded to be holy, but we are utterly incapable of doing it ourselves.

1Pe 1:14 As obedient children, do not be conformed to the passions of your former ignorance,
1Pe 1:15 but as he who called you is holy, you also be holy in all your conduct,
1Pe 1:16 since it is written, “You shall be holy, for I am holy.” (ESV)

This is why I think all these things in the Christian walk, all the good that we are to do, all that we are expected to be, can only be accomplished by the Holy Spirit working in us, even though we are commanded to be a certain way. This is the grace of God in action in our sanctification, just as it is in our justification. From our perspective we think we are simply choosing, but the state of all people's hearts is such that we would never choose to have Jesus as Lord if the Spirit of God didn't first do some work in our hearts, to see the utter sinfulness of our sin and our need of a saviour in Christ.

You may have done a little of what I was asking for in a round about way. But, to me humility is something we experience when we come to the realization of our true relationship to God and recognize or unholiness. I don't see humility is our reliance on God but rather the understanding we have about ourselves when we give in to Him completely. We must become humble, that is to set aside our own pride and desire to be our own god, in order to submit to Him in every part of our being. Sounds easy to say but it is extremely difficult to near impossible to achieve on our own and that is why we need our Savior.

I don't think we are as far off from each other as it first seemed. Perhaps my wording was a bit off previously. I believe that humility is the absence of self, complete self-denial and a giving of oneself completely to God. And, yes, I certainly agree that it is impossible, without the work of the Holy Spirit. I think this is something daily we must pray for and strive at, with the help of the Holy Spirit.

 

[Christ_empowered]

I think humility is learning to lean on and abide in Him. Overlaps with die daily.

 

[JackrabbitSlim]

Has anyone stopped and asked themselves, what is the point here? What is the end goal of going back and forth, quoting Scripture in such a way that seems to be utilized more as weaponry against fellow believers than beneficial explanation? How does this edify one another or glorify Christ?

 

[Free]

Giving it more thought, I can see where it is also a command, although one we could not possibly fulfill. Very much the same way I see the 10 Commandments. They are both a command and an explanation of the failings of our human condition and why we need our Savior.

Exactly. As in Phil 2:1-4, we are commanded to walk in humility, with Jesus as our supreme example, but it is not something we can do on our own.

For anyone interested, I highly recommend the books Humility, Absolute Surrender, and The Spiritual Life, all by Andrew Murray. I also recommend Coming Events and Present Duties, by J. C. Ryle, which I am currently reading. I have gotten so much out of these books.

 

[Free]

Has anyone stopped and asked themselves, what is the point here? What is the end goal of going back and forth, quoting Scripture in such a way that seems to be utilized more as weaponry against fellow believers than beneficial explanation? How does this edify one another or glorify Christ?

The point is to come to a knowledge of the truth. By comparing different verses, which all form a part of the necessary literary context, and sharing what we and others understand those verses to be saying, we can at least get closer to the truth. If we come to an agreement on what the truth of a matter is, all are edified and Christ is glorified. If we still disagree but keep things civil, then still, all can be edified and Christ glorified.

 

[JackrabbitSlim]

The point is to come to a knowledge of the truth. By comparing different verses, which all form a part of the necessary literary context, and sharing what we and others understand those verses to be saying, we can at least get closer to the truth. If we come to an agreement on what the truth of a matter is, all are edified and Christ is glorified. If we still disagree but keep things civil, then still, all can be edified and Christ glorified.

But, this is not happening. This is bitter arguing and attacking one another. Clearly I've come to the wrong forum.

 

[Free]

But, this is not happening. This is bitter arguing and attacking one another.

In this thread?

Clearly I've come to the wrong forum.

I'm fairly certain other forums are the same, if not worse. We let people have their opinions as long as they stay within the ToS. Some people can state things strongly sometimes, myself included, but that doesn't necessarily mean it is bitter arguing and attacking one another. If anyone is attacking another, it will be dealt with, if its reported.

 

[Christ_empowered]

Yeah…

Things can get rough here but it pales in comparison to many other sites. True story…

 

[Dorothy Mae]

Can we resist the Holy Spirit? That sounds like it potential can of worms.

In his view, shouldn’t God be responsible for ensuring that we don’t resist? You know, “to will and to do” “lest any man boast” he made a free choice?

 

[Dorothy Mae]

Has anyone stopped and asked themselves, what is the point here? What is the end goal of going back and forth, quoting Scripture in such a way that seems to be utilized more as weaponry against fellow believers than beneficial explanation? How does this edify one another or glorify Christ?

Anyone who blessed enough to be in a committed warm and loving family knows they don’t all agree and that is good. How can we be corrected if our thinking is off and anything anyone says is greeted with “amen, wonderful?”

 

[Dorothy Mae]

But, this is not happening. This is bitter arguing and attacking one another. Clearly I've come to the wrong forum.

American culture has sunk into name calling as a defense. If americans would watch political debates from say, 1980 and compared to 2000, the lack of respect is obvious. It is socially acceptable to just call your opponent a nasty name so the Americans here learned that as a discussion response. That is bitter, unchristlike but common although seldom dealt with.

 

[Dorothy Mae]

I understand your point but I must ask. When we're told that we "must be holy as God is holy," is that really a command or more of an explanation of our failings? It is impossible for us to be Holy, is it not, and that is why we so desperately need a Savior. At least that's how I look at it.

Holy in those sense means complete, I understand. Just like obedience, it’s something we should make our goal in individual choices. Sometimes we succeed but not always.
When one has an experience of being holy, that is obeying God (as best we know) completely as He wished, that holiness is so amazing it motivates us to “do it again” as the occasion arises.

However, coaching “holy” or “humble” in spiritual but not seen in realty terms, means it won’t change us.

An example: if we define humble as “totally dependent upon God” although we have a good job, own a few houses, have financial and interpersonal wherewithall so that there’s no real difference in standard of living between us and the atheist neighbor, we are fooling ourselves. We aren’t at all dependent upon God. But if we humble ourselves (no ethereal help from Him) by making ourselves do that which is beneath us (my youth pastor told us God was making him pick up trash for a time as we walked along, for example), we are humbling ourselves in reality.

 

[WIP]

But, this is not happening. This is bitter arguing and attacking one another. Clearly I've come to the wrong forum.

If you're speaking about the discussion between myself, Free, and Christ_empowered I think you are misunderstanding or reading into it something that is not there. We are not arguing at all. We are sharing our differing viewpoints and trying to understand each other as well as dig deeper into Scripture more. That is the point of having this discussion in the first place. It's a study of God's Word.

 

[Christ_empowered]

Back too count the cost…

I actually emailed a cousin in ministry about this parable maybe one year ago. At the time all I could see was that following Jesus cost..me. Not really a loss by most standards, although it was a somewhat painful process to cooperate with Him putting off the old and now more of the putting on the new.

 

[eddif]

Which part that I said makes no sense? Where did I equate praying with being a work? That does raise an interesting question: is praying a work? James is talking about people asking from the flesh, asking with sinful, worldly motives.

I think perhaps you are misunderstanding what I am saying. Every good work we do is only done with the help of the Holy Spirit. It is the only reason we do good works, because it is God who works in us, "both to will and to work for his good pleasure."

Gets interesting in a hurry.
1st person does not ask God to work, but believes like Elihu that within him lies the power to accomplish things. Not seeing human motives because of blind spots.
James 4:2

2nd person sees his sin and is in awe that God would become active enough in his life to bring about a change. Paul is suddenly blind and the praying starts

I really don’t know how many more persons there are, but we are not all the same.

The rod and staff direct us.

I am in the God works in us camp, but along with the rod and staff causing the asking at times. God just makes a trip to see those we do not understand.

I just used your post to jump in. I am not trying to comment on your post in particular.

Mississippi redneck
eddif