Why did Jesus tell people to count the cost of following Him if salvation is without cost?

[Dorothy Mae]

Part of what I'm trying to say is that following Jesus is something we do. Salvation is something God does and He does not do it because He has to do it.

Nicely put. Nothing we do obligates God to show us mercy. He might require something from us (like forgiving others) but still He is not obligated to do so.

 

[Free]

Part of what I'm trying to say is that following Jesus is something we do. Salvation is something God does and He does not do it because He has to do it.

Yes, that is true, but even then, it is only done through the work and power of the Holy Spirit, and not something we do on our own.

 

[Dorothy Mae]

Yes, that is true, but even then, it is only done through the work and power of the Holy Spirit, and not something we do on our own.

If we don’t do our part, he won’t do his part. No one is justified/saved/reconciled/sealed/etc bypassing their necessary but insufficient part.

 

[Edward]

If we don’t do our part, he won’t do his part. No one is justified/saved/reconciled/sealed/etc bypassing their necessary but insufficient part.

Isn't that the truth?! Our part is to come humbly before the Lord and say, Lord I can't do this, please do it for me? That's our 1%

Then the Lord does the 99% of doing whatever it is at the moment.

You have not because you ask not! (James 4:2)

 

[Free]

If we don’t do our part, he won’t do his part. No one is justified/saved/reconciled/sealed/etc bypassing their necessary but insufficient part.

Where is that in Scripture? That is like the popular but false saying, “God helps those who help themselves.” What you have said is essentially salvation by works. Verses have been given several times showing that justification is a gift by grace and not by works, so I won’t repeat those. But here are a couple that show what I was meaning:

Php 1:6 And I am sure of this, that he who began a good work in you will bring it to completion at the day of Jesus Christ. (ESV)

Php 2:12 Therefore, my beloved, as you have always obeyed, so now, not only as in my presence but much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling,
Php 2:13 for it is God who works in you, both to will and to work for his good pleasure. (ESV)

Note that it is God who begins the work in us and brings it to completion. And, even though a believer is to “work out [their] own salvation,” God gives us both the will and the power to carry out that will in doing that work.

 

[Edward]

Where is that in Scripture? That is like the popular but false saying, “God helps those who help themselves.” What you have said is essentially salvation by works. Verses have been given several times showing that justification is a gift by grace and not by works, so I won’t repeat those. But here are a couple that show what I was meaning:

You can't be serious! James 4:2

Asking (a family member) God for help is not a work! Maaybe some more coffee will help? Lol.

God helps those who can not help themselves is how that should read.

 

[Free]

You can't be serious! James 4:2

Asking (a family member) God for help is not a work! Maaybe some more coffee will help? Lol.

God helps those who can not help themselves is how that should read.

I’m not sure what your point is or what James 4:2 has to do with what I said.

 

[Dorothy Mae]

Where is that in Scripture? That is like the popular but false saying, “God helps those who help themselves.” What you have said is essentially salvation by works. Verses have been given several times showing that justification is a gift by grace and not by works, so I won’t repeat those. But here are a couple that show what I was meaning:

Php 1:6 And I am sure of this, that he who began a good work in you will bring it to completion at the day of Jesus Christ. (ESV)

Php 2:12 Therefore, my beloved, as you have always obeyed, so now, not only as in my presence but much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling,
Php 2:13 for it is God who works in you, both to will and to work for his good pleasure. (ESV)

Note that it is God who begins the work in us and brings it to completion. And, even though a believer is to “work out [their] own salvation,” God gives us both the will and the power to carry out that will in doing that work.

God opposes the proud but gives grace to the ……lucky ones?…..no, the humble. Humble YOURSELVES THEREFORE. Does he give grace to man who doesn’t humble himself? NO. Is that humbling yourself a WORK? NO . There’s more to life than works or free.

This is vital. How many christian’s here they suffer from depression or other inner turmoil solely because they refuse to humble themselves as it is presented to do so and Gods grace is withheld as promised?

 

[Edward]

I’m not sure what your point is or what James 4:2 has to do with what I said.

But what you said makes no sense. You can't equate praying to God to being a work.

You have not because you ask not. But that's not a work. It only show that you are a sentinent being, that you are alive, lol.

Salvation is by grace through faith, and is free, but how can one receive this gift without coming before the Lord in prayer? He can't.

 

[Free]

But what you said makes no sense. You can't equate praying to God to being a work.

You have not because you ask not. But that's not a work. It only show that you are a sentinent being, that you are alive, lol.

Salvation is by grace through faith, and is free, but how can one receive this gift without coming before the Lord in prayer? He can't.

Which part that I said makes no sense? Where did I equate praying with being a work? That does raise an interesting question: is praying a work? James is talking about people asking from the flesh, asking with sinful, worldly motives.

I think perhaps you are misunderstanding what I am saying. Every good work we do is only done with the help of the Holy Spirit. It is the only reason we do good works, because it is God who works in us, "both to will and to work for his good pleasure."

 

[Free]

God opposes the proud but gives grace to the ……lucky ones?…..no, the humble. Humble YOURSELVES THEREFORE. Does he give grace to man who doesn’t humble himself? NO. Is that humbling yourself a WORK? NO . There’s more to life than works or free.

This is vital. How many christian’s here they suffer from depression or other inner turmoil solely because they refuse to humble themselves as it is presented to do so and Gods grace is withheld as promised?

Any humbling of oneself is through God working in us, that is, by his grace and mercy. No one can submit to God as fully as they need to without the help of the Holy Spirit.

 

[Dorothy Mae]

Any humbling of oneself is through God working in us, that is, by his grace and mercy. No one can submit to God as fully as they need to without the help of the Holy Spirit.

Scripture doesn’t say God is the one humbling us through us. He actually says “humble your SELF” and his part is to lift you up. “I’ll humble you through you, no sweat,” is not there.

The problem with your theory is if it doesn’t happen, is it Gods fault?

 

[WIP]

Any humbling of oneself is through God working in us, that is, by his grace and mercy. No one can submit to God as fully as they need to without the help of the Holy Spirit.

But does this not open the door for placing blame on God for our lack of humility?

 

[Free]

But does this not open the door for placing blame on God for our lack of humility?

I don't think so, because we can still resist, just as we still can choose to sin. We can feel promptings of the Spirit but choose to ignore them. Only the Holy Spirit can convict of pride and opens one's eyes to it in their own life, at which point one can either choose to ask God for help in being humble or choose to ignore the conviction.

 

[Dorothy Mae]

But does this not open the door for placing blame on God for our lack of humility?

Absolutely!! That’s the problem!

 

[WIP]

Any humbling of oneself is through God working in us, that is, by his grace and mercy. No one can submit to God as fully as they need to without the help of the Holy Spirit.

I have not been able to find Scripture that would support this. Can you provide some please?

I have found the following as well as many others.

5 Likewise you younger people, submit yourselves to your elders. Yes, all of you be submissive to one another, and be clothed with humility, for

“God resists the proud,
But gives grace to the humble.”

6 Therefore humble yourselves under the mighty hand of God, that He may exalt you in due time,
7 casting all your care upon Him, for He cares for you.
1 Peter 5:5-7 NKJV


6 But He gives more grace. Therefore He says:

“God resists the proud,
But gives grace to the humble.”

7 Therefore submit to God. Resist the devil and he will flee from you.
8 Draw near to God and He will draw near to you. Cleanse your hands, you sinners; and purify your hearts, you double-minded.
9 Lament and mourn and weep! Let your laughter be turned to mourning and your joy to gloom. 10 Humble yourselves in the sight of the Lord, and He will lift you up.
James 4:6-9 NKJV

He has shown you, O man, what is good;
And what does the Lord require of you
But to do justly,
To love mercy,
And to walk humbly with your God?
Micah 6:8 NKJV

7 So He told a parable to those who were invited, when He noted how they chose the best places, saying to them:
8 “When you are invited by anyone to a wedding feast, do not sit down in the best place, lest one more honorable than you be invited by him;
9 and he who invited you and him come and say to you, ‘Give place to this man,’ and then you begin with shame to take the lowest place.
10 But when you are invited, go and sit down in the lowest place, so that when he who invited you comes he may say to you, ‘Friend, go up higher.’ Then you will have glory in the presence of those who sit at the table with you.
11 For whoever exalts himself will be humbled, and he who humbles himself will be exalted.”
Luke 14:7-11 NKJV

 

[WIP]

I don't think so, because we can still resist, just as we still can choose to sin. We can feel promptings of the Spirit but choose to ignore them. Only the Holy Spirit can convict of pride and opens one's eyes to it in their own life, at which point one can either choose to ask God for help in being humble or choose to ignore the conviction.

Can we resist the Holy Spirit? That sounds like it potential can of worms.

 

[Dorothy Mae]

I have not been able to find Scripture that would support this. Can you provide some please?

I have found the following as well as many others.

5 Likewise you younger people, submit yourselves to your elders. Yes, all of you be submissive to one another, and be clothed with humility, for

“God resists the proud,
But gives grace to the humble.”

6 Therefore humble yourselves under the mighty hand of God, that He may exalt you in due time,
7 casting all your care upon Him, for He cares for you.
1 Peter 5:5-7 NKJV


6 But He gives more grace. Therefore He says:

“God resists the proud,
But gives grace to the humble.”

7 Therefore submit to God. Resist the devil and he will flee from you.
8 Draw near to God and He will draw near to you. Cleanse your hands, you sinners; and purify your hearts, you double-minded.
9 Lament and mourn and weep! Let your laughter be turned to mourning and your joy to gloom. 10 Humble yourselves in the sight of the Lord, and He will lift you up.
James 4:6-9 NKJV

He has shown you, O man, what is good;
And what does the Lord require of you
But to do justly,
To love mercy,
And to walk humbly with your God?
Micah 6:8 NKJV

7 So He told a parable to those who were invited, when He noted how they chose the best places, saying to them:
8 “When you are invited by anyone to a wedding feast, do not sit down in the best place, lest one more honorable than you be invited by him;
9 and he who invited you and him come and say to you, ‘Give place to this man,’ and then you begin with shame to take the lowest place.
10 But when you are invited, go and sit down in the lowest place, so that when he who invited you comes he may say to you, ‘Friend, go up higher.’ Then you will have glory in the presence of those who sit at the table with you.
11 For whoever exalts himself will be humbled, and he who humbles himself will be exalted.”
Luke 14:7-11 NKJV

He doesn’t help us humble ourselves as that would defeat the purpose. He doesn’t put in us the desire to be humble either. And no, one is never proud of humbling yourself or being humble. The whole business is too painful to be proud of.

 

[Dorothy Mae]

I don't think so, because we can still resist, just as we still can choose to sin. We can feel promptings of the Spirit but choose to ignore them. Only the Holy Spirit can convict of pride and opens one's eyes to it in their own life, at which point one can either choose to ask God for help in being humble or choose to ignore the conviction.

So was God’s “help” inadequate?

 

[Free]

I have not been able to find Scripture that would support this. Can you provide some please?

I have found the following as well as many others.

5 Likewise you younger people, submit yourselves to your elders. Yes, all of you be submissive to one another, and be clothed with humility, for

“God resists the proud,
But gives grace to the humble.”

6 Therefore humble yourselves under the mighty hand of God, that He may exalt you in due time,
7 casting all your care upon Him, for He cares for you.
1 Peter 5:5-7 NKJV


6 But He gives more grace. Therefore He says:

“God resists the proud,
But gives grace to the humble.”

7 Therefore submit to God. Resist the devil and he will flee from you.
8 Draw near to God and He will draw near to you. Cleanse your hands, you sinners; and purify your hearts, you double-minded.
9 Lament and mourn and weep! Let your laughter be turned to mourning and your joy to gloom. 10 Humble yourselves in the sight of the Lord, and He will lift you up.
James 4:6-9 NKJV

He has shown you, O man, what is good;
And what does the Lord require of you
But to do justly,
To love mercy,
And to walk humbly with your God?
Micah 6:8 NKJV

7 So He told a parable to those who were invited, when He noted how they chose the best places, saying to them:
8 “When you are invited by anyone to a wedding feast, do not sit down in the best place, lest one more honorable than you be invited by him;
9 and he who invited you and him come and say to you, ‘Give place to this man,’ and then you begin with shame to take the lowest place.
10 But when you are invited, go and sit down in the lowest place, so that when he who invited you comes he may say to you, ‘Friend, go up higher.’ Then you will have glory in the presence of those who sit at the table with you.
11 For whoever exalts himself will be humbled, and he who humbles himself will be exalted.”
Luke 14:7-11 NKJV

I cannot find Scripture to directly support it, no more than I can find Scripture to support our being able to make ourselves holy, despite being told to be holy. Humility is the absence of self and total, utter reliance on God. It seems to me, then, that it is impossible to avail ourselves of ourselves without help from God. It is a state or attitude of the heart of complete reliance on God, and so, again, I don't see how we can change a state of our hearts without help from the Holy Spirit.

Humility is something that also happens to us and something we are to seek:

Deu 8:2 And you shall remember the whole way that the LORD your God has led you these forty years in the wilderness, that he might humble you, testing you to know what was in your heart, whether you would keep his commandments or not.
Deu 8:3 And he humbled you and let you hunger and fed you with manna, which you did not know, nor did your fathers know, that he might make you know that man does not live by bread alone, but man lives by every word that comes from the mouth of the LORD.
...
Deu_8:16 who fed you in the wilderness with manna that your fathers did not know, that he might humble you and test you, to do you good in the end. (ESV)

Dan_4:37 Now I, Nebuchadnezzar, praise and extol and honor the King of heaven, for all his works are right and his ways are just; and those who walk in pride he is able to humble. (ESV)

Zep 2:3 Seek the LORD, all you humble of the land, who do his just commands; seek righteousness; seek humility; perhaps you may be hidden on the day of the anger of the LORD. (ESV)


Eph 4:1 I therefore, a prisoner for the Lord, urge you to walk in a manner worthy of the calling to which you have been called,
Eph 4:2 with all humility and gentleness, with patience, bearing with one another in love, (ESV)

Gal 5:22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness,
Gal 5:23 gentleness, self-control; against such things there is no law. (ESV)

Col 3:12 Put on then, as God's chosen ones, holy and beloved, compassionate hearts, kindness, humility, meekness, and patience,

If love, gentleness, kindness, meekness, and patience are fruit of the Spirit produced from walking by the Spirit. These are changes brought about by the Spirit's work in us as we walk with him. So, considering that humility is listed along side them, I don't see how it wouldn't also be the same.