Why do some people feel they have the right to undo Salvation?

[gr8grace3]

We know from John 10:28-29 that no one (no person- it doesn't say "no one else") can snatch a saved one from the Father's hand. So that includes all persons, including the believing person. And no context allows one to claim that those verses don't apply to oneself. Nonsense. Of course it does. The believer is a person, just as much as "no one" also refers to no person.

And we have clear scripture on how God views us when we mess up.And it is clear in scripture that we can mess up pretty darn bad.

Psalm 37:24~~New American Standard Bible
When he falls, he will not be hurled headlong, Because the LORD is the One who holds his hand.

To hurl a believer headlong, when the Lord says He won't, is an attack on His character,nature,Grace and His doctrine.

Cosmic system #2 living........

 

[FreeGrace]

And we have clear scripture on how God views us when we mess up.And it is clear in scripture that we can mess up pretty darn bad.

Psalm 37:24~~New American Standard Bible
When he falls, he will not be hurled headlong, Because the LORD is the One who holds his hand.

To hurl a believer headlong, when the Lord says He won't, is an attack on His character,nature,Grace and His doctrine.

Cosmic #2 living........

 

[Mike S]

And God absolutely does recreate. It's called regeneration in Scripture. I always go to the Source for my understanding. He regenerates everyone who believes in His Son.

And, regarding sovereign, why should anyone think that it means that the Sovereign One can go back on any of His Word? Where does that opinion come from? Certainly not the Bible.

btw, God cannot lie, per Heb 6:18 - so that by two unchangeable things in which it is impossible for God to lie, we who have taken refuge would have strong encouragement to take hold of the hope set before us.

Does this reduce His sovereignty?

God has recreated (changed His creation) throughout the entire course of the Bible, from Genesis to Revelation. God's sovereignty is manifested in His changing of His own creation into new things also of His own creation. I know that the argument, looking at it today from an after-the-fact perspective, is 'Well, it was God's plan all along,' but it is absolutely change in His creation, and it absolutely is God's sovereignty being manifested. He changes the world at His will in ways that are mostly unknowable to man, which many seem determined to deny.

I've never said God Himself changes, nor that God lies. That seems to be language coming from you. My comments have been directed to the fact that God as sovereign can change His creation in any way He decides according to His will. We are not at the end of time and God may well make all things new again. Which brings us back to the theme of this thread, can man lose salvation after having been saved. Yes, and, God may reveal that more clearly in His once again making all things new, and the argument at that time will again be 'Well, that was His plan all along'. God Has not stopped changing His creation, He has not stopped revealing His will and His sovereignty. And guess what will change at that time: scripture.

Revelation 21:1-8
1 And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.
2 And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.
3 And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God.
4 And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.
5 And he that sat upon the throne said, Behold, I make all things new. And he said unto me, Write: for these words are true and faithful.
6 And he said unto me, It is done. I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end. I will give unto him that is athirst of the fountain of the water of life freely.
7 He that overcometh shall inherit all things; and I will be his God, and he shall be my son.
8 But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.

 

[chessman]

The day will come when we will understand God, but today is not that day, even with the help of scripture..

1 Corinthians 13:12

A few points about1 Cor 13:12 for your consideration:

1 Cor 13:8-13 (LEB) Love never ends.
But if there are prophecies, they will pass away.
If there are tongues, they will cease.
If there is knowledge, it will pass away.
9 For we know in part and we prophesy in part,
10 but whenever the perfect comes, the partial will pass away.
11 When I was a child, I spoke like a child, I thought like a child, I reasoned like a child.
When I became a man, I set aside the things of a child.
12 For now we see through a mirror indirectly [Literally “in an indirect image”], but then face to face.
Now I know in part, but then I will know completely, just as I have also been completely known.
13 And now these three things remain: faith, hope, and love. But the greatest of these is love.​

1. This passage doesn’t say; ‘but now we see things one way, but later we will see things another way’ (which seems to be how you are using this verse). Also, the passage has a very specific knowledge in mind (the knowledge of Eternal love) and is therefore not about other things, necessarily. It’s NOT about for example, how we might think now that we cannot lose our salvation but later we’ll be corrected and think we can lose our salvation. How do I know this? Because it says we see the indirect-in part image (not the erroneous image).
2. The context is us children (i.e. newly saved people) seeing (knowing) certain things “dimly” or “darkly”/ “in part” per the KJV/NKJV (indirectly- in part, more literally) now but maturing into a more complete knowledge (as Paul did) later. But notice, Paul was still alive and not waiting on Heaven to call himself a man in his knowledge of this point (that Love endures). That is, true Love, God’s Love endures. Which means it’s rather odd, in an ironic kind of way, that you would quote this verse/passage for support on how you don’t know if you can lose salvation or not, frankly.
3. The context is that of a child being taught certain things by his/her Father (Capital F, Father in this case) so as to mature into a young man like Paul had (When I [Paul] became a man). Paul’s NOT saying we have to wait until the New Heavens/Earth in order to mature into manhood and see/know these things completely. In fact, all that’s necessary to know these things like Paul does, is read it in it’s context.
4. So how do we mature??? How does Paul tell us to mature and begin to see/know love clearly as a maturing man/women should (versus as a child)? Umm, the answer might surprise you.
First, it’s not to just wait until we see Heaven (assuming we make it to Heaven)!
Second, can we mature by speaking in tongues (our words/languages versus The Word)??? No. Our tongues will pass away.
Can we mature into manhood by our knowledge/prophesy (versus His Knowledge/Prophesy)??? No.
We mature into manhood (as Paul did) by relying on the Love of God (The Word and The Father and The Holy spirit) and setting aside our childish knowledge. Surprise, surprise huh? Imagine that. Relying on God; The Father and The Son and The Holy Spirit for a mature knowledge. What a novel idea.
5. Verse 12 is a very interesting verse to study in the Greek because of the way Paul switches between active and passive verbs within the very same sentence structure for the same verbs (seeing/knowing) and subjects. He does so for a very, very important reason:

12 For now we see through a mirror indirectly, [This Greek verb form for 'see' is Present tense, Indicative, Active. In other words, children’s seeing/knowledge is actually, presently seeing/knowing done actively all by themselves. They are the ones doing the action and doing it alone.]
Now I know in part, [This Greek verb is also Present tense, Indicative, Active]​

But Paul switches the tense, mood and voice to tell them how to gain a mature man’s knowledge (a complete knowledge (versus how a child knows):

but then I will know completely, [Here the knowing verb form is Future, Indicative, Middle (In other words, in the future your knowledge will actually be complete because it’s not just you alone actively doing the work. You are being acted upon. One guess who it is that’s doing this action along with you. The big G-Man!]​

And Paul switched verb voice again to explain how he is personally (and actually) known by God already:

just as I have also been completely known. [Paul’s been know in the Aorist (i.e. past) yet Paul’s still alive, Indicative (actually), Passively (God’s knowledge of Paul is actually completed because he was acted upon by the G-Man. Now that’s assurance of salvation if I’ve ever heard it. "Depart from me for I NEVER knew you", doesn't say I once knew you.]​

In other words, the less we act like children and rely on our own active knowledge and allow God to work in us (via His Word), the more we mature into complete knowledge. But the point is, Paul didn't have to wait until Heaven to have this complete knowledge.

http://biblehub.com/interlinear/1_corinthians/13.htm

Indicative Mood The indicative mood is a statement of fact or an actual occurrence from the writer's or speaker's perspective.
Active Voice If the subject of the sentence is executing the action, then the verb is referred to as being in the active voice.
Middle Voice The Greek middle voice shows the subject … participating in the results of the verbal action.
Passive Voice If the subject of the sentence is being acted upon, then the verb is referred to as being in the passive voice.
http://www.ntgreek.org/learn_nt_greek/grkindex.htm

 

[JLB]

So Paul was talking about salvation? This is what he said about people who wanted to take away the Grace that believers received.

Col 2:18~~New American Standard Bible
Let no one keep defrauding you of your prize by delighting in self-abasement and the worship of the angels, taking his stand on visions he has seen, inflated without cause by his fleshly mind,

Yes Paul was talking about CHRISTIANS losing their salvation, by practicing the works of the flesh.

Inherit the kingdom is clear.


JLB

 

[Kidron]

(Post removed. A&T guidelines: "Subsequent opposing responses should include references to supportive scripture relevant to the thread and offer explanation for the contrary understanding." and ToS 2.4, offering unwelcome spiritual advice. Obadiah)

 

[JLB]

OK, since my statements have been ignored, I will do likewise with yours.)

I have answered your questions.

You must try to ignore my post's since you haven't ever been able to refute (Edit: my interpretation) of scripture.


JLB

 

[JLB]

(Post removed, response to removed post. Obadiah)

 

[gr8grace3]

I've never said God Himself changes, nor that God lies.

John 10:28~~New American Standard Bible
and I give eternal life to them, and they will never(double negative, NO, not ever!) perish; and no one will snatch them out of My hand.

James 1:17~~New American Standard Bible
Every good thing given and every perfect gift is from above, coming down from the Father of lights, with whom there is no variation or shifting shadow.

Which brings us back to the theme of this thread, can man lose salvation after having been saved. Yes,

I know your not going to change your mind. But could you please explain how you get around these clear and precise verses? I have never seen someone here that believes in loss of salvation exegete the clear scriptures that teach eternal security. It is always pitting scripture against scripture.

 

[Mike S]

John 10:28~~New American Standard Bible
and I give eternal life to them, and they will never(double negative, NO, not ever!) perish; and no one will snatch them out of My hand.

James 1:17~~New American Standard Bible
Every good thing given and every perfect gift is from above, coming down from the Father of lights, with whom there is no variation or shifting shadow.



I know your not going to change your mind. But could you please explain how you get around these clear and precise verses? I have never seen someone here exegete the clear scriptures that teach eternal security. It is always pitting scripture against scripture.

Yeah, it is dueling scriptures.

I don't think of myself as "getting around clear and precise verses." I don't think those verses address the issue of a man losing his faith and rejecting Christ. I think those verses are about men remaining faithful, and that no other force can take them away from God and threaten their salvation. Which I agree with, BTW. If we remain faithful to Christ there IS no power that can separate us from God's love.

Romans 8:1-8
1There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
2For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.
3For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:
4That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
5For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit.
6For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace.
7Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.
8So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.

 

[gr8grace3]

Yeah, it is dueling scriptures.

I don't think of myself as "getting around clear and precise verses." I don't think those verses address the issue of a man losing his faith and rejecting Christ. I think those verses are about men remaining faithful, and that no other force can take them away from God and threaten their salvation. Which I agree with, BTW. If we remain faithful to Christ there IS no power that can separate us from God's love.

Romans 8:1-8
1There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
2For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.
3For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:
4That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
5For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit.
6For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace.
7Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.
8So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.

2 Tim 2:13~~New American Standard Bible
If we are faithless, He remains faithful, for He cannot deny Himself.

Eph 5:30~~New American Standard Bible
because we are members of His body.

And thanks for your time Mike. But yet again, I have never seen someone that believes in loss of salvation "flesh out" John 10:28.

Part of the exegesis of John 10:28 is the fact that is based upon His merit that we are saved. It is based upon His life that we have eternal Life. And it is based upon what He did and is doing that we shall never,never perish.

This small, but large corner for us to round. Salvation is based upon what He did for us and what He continues to do for us even if we end up turning from Him. We will not grow in Grace and we will not be able to live the true spiritual life if the believer does not realize this and believe it.

 

[Mike S]

2 Tim 2:13~~New American Standard Bible
If we are faithless, He remains faithful, for He cannot deny Himself.

Eph 5:30~~New American Standard Bible
because we are members of His body.

And thanks for your time Mike. But yet again, I have never seen someone that believes in loss of salvation "flesh out" John 10:28.

Part of the exegesis of John 10:28 is the fact that is based upon His merit that we are saved. It is based upon His life that we have eternal Life. And it is based upon what He did and is doing that we shall never,never perish.

This small, but large corner for us to round. Salvation is based upon what He did for us and what He continues to do for us even if we end up turning from Him. We will not grow in Grace and we will not be able to live the true spiritual life if the believer does not realize this and believe it.

I accept that you believe this, many do, it's part of Calvinist theology. But, I'm going to refer you to a post I made earlier about why it would make any difference in living a Christian life. It's something interesting to think about, but unimportant in my mind. I live my Christian life in accordance with God's will as best I can understand it in either case. It simply doesn't matter to me.

 

[gr8grace3]

I accept that you believe this, many do, it's part of Calvinist theology.

Mike, Calvinists believe in perseverance of the saints. The Saint does the persevering according to their faith and works, if they don't then they were not reallysaved.....works orientated. It is the same thing Arminians teach with loss of salvation due to no works.

A doctrinal Christian believes the Savior does the preserving. And it is His perseverance that preserves the saints.

But, I'm going to refer you to a post I made earlier about why it would make any difference in living a Christian life. It's something interesting to think about, but unimportant in my mind. I live my Christian life in accordance with God's will as best I can understand it in either case. It simply doesn't matter to me.

Gods will is that we live in our Position in Christ.
Rom 8:1 NASB~~New American Standard Bible
Therefore there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus.

"in Christ Jesus" is your position and union with Christ. We are called to walk and be filled in the Spirit. And the Spirit will testify this truth to us if we are walking in the Spirit..........

John 5:24~~New American Standard Bible
"Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life.

 

[Mike S]

Mike, Calvinists believe in perseverance of the saints. The Saint does the persevering according to their faith and works, if they don't then they were not reallysaved.....works orientated. It is the same thing Arminians teach with loss of salvation due to no works.

This is not actually a good explanation of the Arminian view of salvation, at least not as it's expressed in the United Methodist Church. UMC statements of belief on salvation is that it is always and only initiated by God, and man exercises his free will to either accept it through faith or reject it. Once saved, a man can backslide and lose his faith. But, salvation is not lost by lack of good works. Good works can be a sign of salvation, and lack of good works can be a sign of lost salvation, but in neither case is works the causing agent. Good works cannot gain you salvation, and lack of good works cannot lose it for you.

http://www.umc.org/what-we-believe/do-united-methodists-believe-once-saved-always-saved
Arminius, like Calvin and all of classical Christianity, affirmed that there is nothing humans can do to initiate salvation. Only God can do this, and God does so unconditionally, and for all, not just a limited number of the pre-selected. Christ's saving activity in his life, death and resurrection was thus potentially effective for all. Only faith, which is an exercise of our will, under the influence of divine grace, is required of us. Such faith and responsiveness to God grace, revealed in our works, but not caused by them, keeps us "in grace." This means it is possible for us to "fall from grace," a phrase he borrows from verses in Hebrews 6 and 10, by not sustaining our faith. A lapse in our works can be a sign, but again is not a cause, of such a fall from grace. The consequences, if our error is not corrected, can be spiritual death and eternity in Hell.


1 Corinthians 10:12
Therefore let him who athinks he stands take heed that he does not fall.


Except from John Wesley's sermon Call to Backsliders http://www.umcmission.org/Find-Resources/John-Wesley-Sermons/Sermon-86-A-Call-to-Backsliders

1. This is a point which may exactly be determined, and that with the utmost certainty. If it be asked, "Do any real apostates find mercy from God? Do any that have 'made shipwreck of faith and a good conscience,' recover what they have lost? Do you know, have you seen, any instance of persons who found redemption in the blood of Jesus, and afterwards fell away, and yet were restored, -- 'renewed again to repentance?' " Yea, verily; and not one, or an hundred only, but, I am persuaded, several thousands. In every place where the arm of the Lord has been revealed, and many sinners converted to God, there are several found who "turn back from the holy commandment delivered to them." For a great part of these "it had been better never to have known the way of righteousness." It only increases their damnation, seeing they die in their sins. But others there are who "look unto him they have pierced, and mourn," refusing to be comforted. And, sooner or later, he surely lifts up the light of his countenance upon them; he strengthens the hands that hang down, and confirms the feeble knees; he teaches them again to say, "My soul doth magnify the Lord, and my spirit rejoiceth in God my Saviour." Innumerable are the instances of this kind, of those who had fallen, but now stand upright. Indeed, it is so far from being an uncommon thing for a believer to fall and be restored, that it is rather uncommon to find any believers who are not conscious of having been backsliders from God, in a higher or lower degree, and perhaps more than once, before they were established in faith.
2. "But have any that had fallen from sanctifying grace been restored to the blessing they had lost?" This also is a point of experience; and we have had the opportunity of repeating our observations, during a considerable course of years, and from the one end of the kingdom to the other.
3. And, First, we have known a large number of persons, of every age and sex, from early childhood to extreme old age, who have given all the proofs which the nature of the thing admits, that they were "sanctified throughout;" "cleansed from all pollution of the flesh and spirit;" that they "loved the Lord their God with all their heart, and mind, and soul, and strength;" that they continually "presented" their souls and bodies "a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable to God;" in consequence of which, they "rejoiced evermore, prayed without ceasing, and in every thing gave thanks." And this, and no other, is what we believe to be true, scriptural sanctification.
4. Secondly. It is a common thing for those who are thus sanctified, to believe they cannot fall; to suppose themselves "pillars in the temple of God, that shall go out no more." Nevertheless, we have seen some of the strongest of them, after a time, moved from their steadfastness. Sometimes suddenly, but oftener by slow degrees, they have yielded to temptation; and pride, or anger, or foolish desires have again sprung up in their hearts. Nay, sometimes they have utterly lost the life of God, and sin hath regained dominion over them.
5. Yet, Thirdly, several of these, after being thoroughly sensible of their fall, and deeply ashamed before God, have been again filled with his love, and not only perfected therein, but stablished, strengthened, and settled. They have received the blessing they had before with abundant increase. Nay, it is remarkable, that many who had fallen either from justifying or from sanctifying grace, and so deeply fallen that they could hardly be ranked among the servants of God, have been restored, (but seldom till they had been shaken, as it were, over the mouth of hell) and that very frequently in an instant, to all that they had lost. They have, at once, recovered both a consciousness of his favour, and the experience of the pure love of God. In one moment they received anew both remission of sins, and a lot among them that were sanctified.
6. But let not any man infer from this longsuffering of God, that he hath given any one a license to sin. Neither let any dare to continue in sin, because of these extraordinary instanced of divine mercy. This is the most desperate, the most irrational presumption, and leads to utter, irrecoverable destruction. In all my experience, I have not known one who fortified himself in sin by a presumption that God would save him at the last, that was not miserably disappointed, and suffered to die in his sins. To turn the grace of God into an encouragement to sin is the sure way to the nethermost hell!
7. It is not for these desperate children of perdition that the preceding considerations are designed; but for those who feel "the remembrance of their sins is grievous unto them, the burden of them intolerable." We set before these an open door of hope: Let them go in and give thanks unto the Lord; let them know that "the Lord is gracious and merciful, longsuffering, and of great goodness." "Look how high the heavens are from the earth! So far will he set their sins from them." "He will not always be chiding; neither keepeth he his anger for ever." Only settle it in your heart, I will give all for all, and the offering shall be accepted. Give him all your heart! Let all that is within you continually cry out, "Thou art my God, and I will thank thee; thou art my God, and I will praise thee." "This God is my God for ever and ever! He shall be my guide even unto death."

 

[chessman]

The consequences, if our error is not corrected, can be spiritual death and eternity in Hell.


1 Corinthians 10:12

If someone thinks 1 Cor 10:12 is a de-salvation passage because it says "fall", then one must also logically think that Moses got de-saved. Why? Because he was one of those examples that 'fell' in the desert.

1 Corinthians 10:11-12 (LEB)

Now these things happened to those people [including Moses] as an example, but are written for our instruction, on whom the ends of the ages have come. Therefore, the one who thinks that he stands must watch out lest he fall [like Moses did].

1 Corinthians 10:2-5 and all were baptized into Moses in the cloud and in the sea, and all ate the same spiritual food, and all drank the same spiritual drink. For they drank from the spiritual rock that followed them, and the rock was Christ. But God was not pleased with the majority of them, for they were struck down in the desert. ​

 

[FreeGrace]

God has recreated (changed His creation) throughout the entire course of the Bible, from Genesis to Revelation.

Simply untrue. Please support your claim with clear Scripture.

I've never said God Himself changes, nor that God lies. That seems to be language coming from you. My comments have been directed to the fact that God as sovereign can change His creation in any way He decides according to His will.

That was the drift I caught from your posts. If your posts were a bit more clear, I wouldn't catch a wrong drift.

We are not at the end of time and God may well make all things new again.

Actually, it's not a "may well". It's an "absolutely will make all things new again". It's all about redemption and the resurrection.

Which brings us back to the theme of this thread, can man lose salvation after having been saved. Yes, and, God may reveal that more clearly in His once again making all things new, and the argument at that time will again be 'Well, that was His plan all along'. God Has not stopped changing His creation, He has not stopped revealing His will and His sovereignty. And guess what will change at that time: scripture.

But none of this seems to have any relevancy to the theme of loss of salvation. So please explain how changing His creation relates to loss of salvation.

Revelation 21:1-8
1 And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.
2 And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.
3 And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God.
4 And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.
5 And he that sat upon the throne said, Behold, I make all things new. And he said unto me, Write: for these words are true and faithful.
6 And he said unto me, It is done. I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end. I will give unto him that is athirst of the fountain of the water of life freely.
7 He that overcometh shall inherit all things; and I will be his God, and he shall be my son.
8 But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.

OK, you've quote a passage. What does it say to you? When one quotes a verse or passage, it is necessary to explain what you think it is saying or meaning to you. Otherwise there is no point in quoting verses/passages.

So, somehow your view is that because God changes His creation, salvation can be lost. I cannot imagine how those are related in any way.

 

[FreeGrace]

I have answered your questions.

I'm tired of arguing about your posts. Readers can make their own determinations.

You must try to ignore my post's since you haven't ever been able to refute (Edit: my interpretation) of scripture.JLB

I've answered your posts, with verses that refute your claim. Readers can make their own determinations.

 

[gr8grace3]

This is not actually a good explanation of the Arminian view of salvation, at least not as it's expressed in the United Methodist Church.

I believe it is. It gets to the nuts and bolts..........end result. Cuts through all the "subtleties" of trying to make one believe that, " we really believe it is God that FIRST initiated salvation and we really believe it is Him that saved you, but ultimately, It is you that saves yourself by correcting your errors."

And if you don't........Off to the eternal lake of fire for our other Brothers and sisters in Christ.

The logical conclusion, after sifting through all the crap is............you fix your errors(works) or you will go to Hell.

Only faith, which is an exercise of our will, under the influence of divine grace, is required of us. Such faith and responsiveness to God grace, revealed in our works, but not caused by them, keeps us "in grace." This means it is possible for us to "fall from grace," a phrase he borrows from verses in Hebrews 6 and 10, by not sustaining our faith. A lapse in our works can be a sign, but again is not a cause, of such a fall from grace. The consequences, if our error is not corrected, can be spiritual death and eternity in Hell.

This very verse proves that logical conclusion, if one uses it to Toss another brother or sister into the LoF.


1 Corinthians 10:12
Therefore let him who athinks he stands take heed that he does not fall.

 

[JLB]

Readers can make their own determinations.

Yes.

Not inherit the kingdom is plain and clear, as we should take heed to the words of Jesus Christ.

God loves us dearly, and sent His Son to suffer and die a brutal death, so we could live free from the bondage of sin.

The precious Holy Spirit of Grace is insulted when we make a mockery of the cross by teaching the idea of Grace as a license to sin, with no consequences.

Paul's words are crystal clear -

9 Do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived. Neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor homosexuals, nor sodomites,10 nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners will inherit the kingdom of God. 1 Corinthians 6:9-10

Just so it is clear that Paul is addressing Christians and not the world, he prefaced these words from Chapter 6, with these closing words from Chapter 5 - ...what have I to do with judging those also who are outside.

9 I wrote to you in my epistle not to keep company with sexually immoral people.
10 Yet I certainly did not mean with the sexually immoral people of this world, or with the covetous, or extortioners, or idolaters, since then you would need to go out of the world.
11 But now I have written to you not to keep company with anyone named a brother, who is sexually immoral, or covetous, or an idolater, or a reviler, or a drunkard, or an extortioner--not even to eat with such a person.
12 For what have I to do with judging those also who are outside? Do you not judge those who are inside?
13 But those who are outside God judges. Therefore "put away from yourselves the evil person."
1 Corinthians 5:9-13

Paul teaches for Christians to "not to keep company with sexually immoral people".

Yet I certainly did not mean with the sexually immoral people of this world, or with the covetous, or extortioners, or idolaters,...


Paul is speaking to Christians and warning them in his letters -

19 Now the works of the flesh are evident, which are: adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lewdness,
20 idolatry, sorcery, hatred, contentions, jealousies, outbursts of wrath, selfish ambitions, dissensions, heresies,
21 envy, murders, drunkenness, revelries, and the like; of which I tell you beforehand, just as I also told you in time past, that those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God. Galatians 5:19-21


Not inheriting the kingdom = Cast into hell, prepared for the devil and his angels.

34 Then the King will say to those on His right hand, 'Come, you blessed of My Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world: Matthew 25:34

Then He will also say to those on the left hand, 'Depart from Me, you cursed, into the everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels: Matthew 25:41


Those on His left hand, are His servants that are likened to goats, who did not inherit the kingdom.

Which is what He said in verse 30, in his private teaching to His disciples.

And cast the unprofitable servant into the outer darkness. There will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.' Matthew 25:30


For those readers in this forum that are actually seeking the truth of God's Kingdom, these words are clear.



The fear of the Lord is a fountain of life, To turn one away from the snares of death. Proverbs 14:27



JLB

 

[gr8grace3]

The precious Holy Spirit of Grace is insulted when we make a mockery of the cross by teaching the idea of Grace as a license to sin, with no consequences.

There is a flip side to this. The Spirit is quenched when we try to save ourselves through our own self righteousness. Which is what is going on in this forum. Everyone here is giving it their best to live properly and I have seen 0, yes,0(zero) people on this forum that think Grace is a license to sin. But, I have seen the majority here think that their morality saves them.

I have seen absolutely no one say there is no consequence for their sin.......rewards and blessings and rank and reign is lost. This is no small matter. It is what we have in the eternal state.........forever lost! For eternity! I can't believe some believers have relegated these loss of eternal rewards to "losing a lollipop."

You are quenching the Spirit. No one here is preaching a license to sin, We have that already, it is called a freewill.

1 Thess 5:19~~New American Standard Bible
Do not quench the Spirit;