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Why do some people feel they have the right to undo Salvation?

Mike S said:
It doesn't matter what the Bible says. God is sovereign over all the universe. God revealed the Bible, God can change anything in the Bible. We cannot presume to know what God can and can't do.
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Matt 24:35~~New American Standard Bible
"Heaven and earth will pass away, but My words will not pass away.

Mark 13:31~~New American Standard Bible
"Heaven and earth will pass away, but My words will not pass away.

It doesn't matter what the bible says?
 
gr8grace3 said:
Matt 24:35~~New American Standard Bible
"Heaven and earth will pass away, but My words will not pass away.

Mark 13:31~~New American Standard Bible
"Heaven and earth will pass away, but My words will not pass away.

It doesn't matter what the bible says?
Click to expand...

Not in terms of our knowing what God CAN and CAN'T do. Of course, the Bible is God's revealed word and we know God's will from the revealed scriptures. But, God is sovereign, God will save whom He will save, and He will remove salvation from whom He will remove salvation. We cannot speak of constraints to God's sovereignty.

It's perfectly fair for someone to say that from the scriptures he understands this or that about salvation - as Martin Luther and Jacobus Arminius each did - but they, and we, are human creatures with limited abilities to understand God's will. We can't speak with certainty on some theological issues, especially if what we believe voices an opinion of limits to God's power. We simply can't know that.
 
gr8grace3

My comments haven't been made to be confrontational with you or others. I just view everything about my faith through the lens of God's sovereignty. God's power is infinite, He can make and change everything, and I can't know, nor judge, Him.

As far as the Calvinist and Arminian theological differences, these where played out in the early history of my church, the Methodist church, between early leaders George Whitefield and John Wesley to great conflict. Most Methodist churches today are Arminian. But, I never thought the differences where at all important to how I live my Christian life. Does it really matter if I have free will or not? No. I'm going to live my live the same either way, doing what I'm called by God to do. It doesn't matter if I'm doing of my own free will or if my choices have already been determined. Does it matter whether I can lose salvation after I've accepted Christ and been saved? No. I going to live the same Christian life I'm called to whether or not I can lose salvation.

These are interesting theological points to ponder, and honestly, there are scriptures that can be quoted to support both theologies, but they make absolutely no difference whatever to me as a Christian.
 
Mike S said:
But, God is sovereign, God will save whom He will save, and He will remove salvation from whom He will remove salvation.
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1.God will save whom He will save. Yes, it is revealed to us in His word. Those who believe in the Lord Jesus Christ for their salvation,He will save. Those who never make that one time, non-meritorious(Acts 16:31) decision to believe, He will not save.
John 3:18~~New American Standard Bible
"He who believes in Him is not judged; he who does not believe has been judged already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
2. He will remove salvation from whom He will remove salvation. That is not revealed to us in His word. In fact, the opposite is revealed to us.

and I give eternal life to them, and they shall never perish; and no one shall snatch them out of My hand. “My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father’s hand. “I and the Father are one.” (John 10:28-30)

The steps of a man are established by the Lord; And He delights in his way. When he falls, he shall not be hurled headlong; Because the Lord is the One who holds his hand. (Psalms 37:23-24)

There is therefore now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus. (Romans 8:1 NASB)

For I am convinced that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor things present, nor things to come, nor powers, nor height, nor depth, nor any other created thing, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord. (Romans 8:38-39)

What then shall we say to these things? If God is for us, who is against us? He who did not spare His own Son, but delivered Him up for us all, how will He not also with Him freely give us all things? (Romans 8:31-32)

But God demonstrates His own love toward us, in that while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us. Much more then, having now been justified by His blood, we shall be saved from the wrath of God through Him. (Romans 5:8-9)

For you are all sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus. (Galatians 3:26)

Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who according to His great mercy has caused us to be born again to a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, to obtain an inheritance which is imperishable and undefiled and will not fade away, reserved in heaven for you, who are protected by the power of God through faith for a salvation ready to be revealed in the last time. (1 Peter 1:3-5)

Now to him who is able to keep you from falling and to present you faultless before the presence of his glory blameless with great joy…” “To the only wise God our Savior through Jesus Christ our Lord, be glory now and forever. Amen.” (Jude 24-25)

Mike S said:
We cannot speak of constraints to God's sovereignty.
Click to expand...
Yes we can. He cannot lie.
Heb 6:18~~New American Standard Bible
so that by two unchangeable things in which it is impossible for God to lie, we who have taken refuge would have strong encouragement to take hold of the hope set before us.
Titus 3:7~~New American Standard Bible
so that being justified by His grace we would be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life.

He cannot revoke His Gift of eternal life.

Rom 11:29~~New American Standard Bible
for the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable.

Rom 6:23~~New American Standard Bible
For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.

He cannot be unjust.

Psalm 96:10~~New American Standard Bible
Say among the nations, "The LORD reigns; Indeed, the world is firmly established, it will not be moved; He will judge the peoples with equity."

He would be UNJUST if salvation and His judgement on the peoples were not equal privilege and equal opportunity for ALL men. Anyone can believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and be saved. And if he changed it for just ONE man, he would be unjust and less than perfect in His justice.

He cannot be unrighteous.

Psalm 96:13~~New American Standard Bible
Before the LORD, for He is coming, For He is coming to judge the earth. He will judge the world in righteousness And the peoples in His faithfulness.
 
gr8grace3 said:
1.God will save whom He will save. Yes, it is revealed to us in His word. Those who believe in the Lord Jesus Christ for their salvation,He will save. Those who never make that one time, non-meritorious(Acts 16:31) decision to believe, He will not save.
John 3:18~~New American Standard Bible
"He who believes in Him is not judged; he who does not believe has been judged already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
2. He will remove salvation from whom He will remove salvation. That is not revealed to us in His word. In fact, the opposite is revealed to us.

and I give eternal life to them, and they shall never perish; and no one shall snatch them out of My hand. “My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father’s hand. “I and the Father are one.” (John 10:28-30)

The steps of a man are established by the Lord; And He delights in his way. When he falls, he shall not be hurled headlong; Because the Lord is the One who holds his hand. (Psalms 37:23-24)

There is therefore now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus. (Romans 8:1 NASB)

For I am convinced that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor things present, nor things to come, nor powers, nor height, nor depth, nor any other created thing, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord. (Romans 8:38-39)

What then shall we say to these things? If God is for us, who is against us? He who did not spare His own Son, but delivered Him up for us all, how will He not also with Him freely give us all things? (Romans 8:31-32)

But God demonstrates His own love toward us, in that while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us. Much more then, having now been justified by His blood, we shall be saved from the wrath of God through Him. (Romans 5:8-9)

For you are all sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus. (Galatians 3:26)

Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who according to His great mercy has caused us to be born again to a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, to obtain an inheritance which is imperishable and undefiled and will not fade away, reserved in heaven for you, who are protected by the power of God through faith for a salvation ready to be revealed in the last time. (1 Peter 1:3-5)

Now to him who is able to keep you from falling and to present you faultless before the presence of his glory blameless with great joy…” “To the only wise God our Savior through Jesus Christ our Lord, be glory now and forever. Amen.” (Jude 24-25)


Yes we can. He cannot lie.
Heb 6:18~~New American Standard Bible
so that by two unchangeable things in which it is impossible for God to lie, we who have taken refuge would have strong encouragement to take hold of the hope set before us.
Titus 3:7~~New American Standard Bible
so that being justified by His grace we would be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life.

He cannot revoke His Gift of eternal life.

Rom 11:29~~New American Standard Bible
for the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable.

Rom 6:23~~New American Standard Bible
For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.

He cannot be unjust.

Psalm 96:10~~New American Standard Bible
Say among the nations, "The LORD reigns; Indeed, the world is firmly established, it will not be moved; He will judge the peoples with equity."

He would be UNJUST if salvation and His judgement on the peoples were not equal privilege and equal opportunity for ALL men. Anyone can believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and be saved. And if he changed it for just ONE man, he would be unjust and less than perfect in His justice.

He cannot be unrighteous.

Psalm 96:13~~New American Standard Bible
Before the LORD, for He is coming, For He is coming to judge the earth. He will judge the world in righteousness And the peoples in His faithfulness.
Click to expand...



OK then. You're able to quote scripture.

Has it occurred to you that you're merely a character is God's creation, with only limited abilities to understand the creator? I sounds like Tom Sawyer using the words he finds around himself to pontificate about the limits of Mark Twain's powers.
 
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Mike S said:
OK then. You're able to quote scripture.

Has it occurred to you that you're merely a character is God's creation, with only limited abilities to understand the creator? I sounds like Tom Sawyer using the words he finds around himself to pontificate about the limits of Mark Twain's powers.
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Has It ever occurred to you that you are a SON, A child of God, An Heir, royalty? And you have the mind of Christ?

1 Cor 2:16~~King James Bible
For who hath known the mind of the Lord, that he may instruct him? But we have the mind of Christ.

Gal 4:7~~New American Standard Bible
Therefore you are no longer a slave, but a son; and if a son, then an heir through God.

1 Tim 6:15~~New American Standard Bible
which He will bring about at the proper time-- He who is the blessed and only Sovereign, the King of kings and Lord of lords,

This is why we have Christians running around thinking they can lose their salvation. They have no idea of the things CHRIST did when HE saved them.

You are no "mere character" in Gods creation. You are an Heir of His, a child of His and royalty. A witness for Him and His Glory.
 
Mike S said:
It doesn't matter what the Bible says.
Click to expand...
Holy Moly!! Really? It matters very much. In fact, God's revealed Word to man is found ONLY in the Bible.

God is sovereign over all the universe.
Click to expand...
And He's given humanity His Word, both written and living.

God revealed the Bible, God can change anything in the Bible.
Click to expand...
Scripture refutes such an idea: Heb 13:8 - Jesus Christ is the same yesterday and today and forever.

And this: For who has known the mind of the Lord, that he will instruct Him? But we have the mind of Christ. 1 Cor 2:16

What is the "mind of Christ"? Scripture, the written Word.

We cannot presume to know what God can and can't do.
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I'd say it would be foolish to presume that God would go back on His Word by changing any of it.

By your view, one can pretty much make any claim at all, or justify any action at all.

If God has changed His Word, that would mean that He went back on what He had said. That would be nonsense. And He would then have to re-write Scripture. How many times can one count that He has done that? By my count, none.
 
its a NON-salvinical position. sheesh If I were get that way, then I would caveat end times must be the same with whatever appears to biblical solid. and good luck with that as all of those have holes. I have an arminist lean myself. I don't believe God will let us go but we can refuse God will. it it wasn't possible then the warnings wouldn't be there.

why would jesus say to the churches, he that endureth to the end, if he already has done it?
 
FreeGrace said:
Holy Moly!! Really? It matters very much. In fact, God's revealed Word to man is found ONLY in the Bible.


And He's given humanity His Word, both written and living.


Scripture refutes such an idea: Heb 13:8 - Jesus Christ is the same yesterday and today and forever.

And this: For who has known the mind of the Lord, that he will instruct Him? But we have the mind of Christ. 1 Cor 2:16

What is the "mind of Christ"? Scripture, the written Word.


I'd say it would be foolish to presume that God would go back on His Word by changing any of it.

By your view, one can pretty much make any claim at all, or justify any action at all.

If God has changed His Word, that would mean that He went back on what He had said. That would be nonsense. And He would then have to re-write Scripture. How many times can one count that He has done that? By my count, none.
Click to expand...


I'd say that's a rather narrow view of sovereignty; 'I'm the creator of the universe...but, I can't really change anything.' Mark Twain can delete entire chapters, erase characters, change their nature, and redo the ending of the story, but the creator of the universe gets only one shot at things.
 
Mike S said:
Not in terms of our knowing what God CAN and CAN'T do. Of course, the Bible is God's revealed word and we know God's will from the revealed scriptures. But, God is sovereign, God will save whom He will save, and He will remove salvation from whom He will remove salvation. We cannot speak of constraints to God's sovereignty.

It's perfectly fair for someone to say that from the scriptures he understands this or that about salvation - as Martin Luther and Jacobus Arminius each did - but they, and we, are human creatures with limited abilities to understand God's will. We can't speak with certainty on some theological issues, especially if what we believe voices an opinion of limits to God's power. We simply can't know that.
Click to expand...
Is not God restrained by own His Words?
 
These are My Father words. I can either trust He keeps His word or I can't. If I can't then He is no better than His creation. A God that lies is not worthy of praise.

Jer 18:6 As this potter am I not able to do to you? O house of Israel, an affirmation of Yehovah. Lo, as clay in the hand of the potter, So are ye in My hand, O house of Israel.
Jer 18:7 The moment I speak concerning a nation, And concerning a kingdom, To pluck up and to break down, and to destroy,
Jer 18:8 And that nation hath turned from its evil, Because I have spoken against it, Then I have repented of the evil that I thought to do to it.
Jer 18:9 And the moment I speak concerning a nation, And concerning a kingdom, to build, and to plant,
Jer 18:10 And it hath done the evil thing in Mine eyes, So as not to hearken to My voice, Then I have repented of the good That I have spoken of doing to it.

That's how God says He is a potter. That sounds like a just God to me, not some God we cannot trust.
Those are His words but we can't trust His words?
 
FreeGrace said:
I'm surprised that an Arminian would be teaching at a Baptist Seminary. I've never heard of a Baptist who believed that salvation could be lost. And certainly not all Baptists are reformed.
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Why not? There are Arminians who are Baptists. Ever heard of Free Will Baptists? Also, there obviously are Arminians among Southern Baptists.

Why don't you contact Dr Roger E Olson at George W Truett Seminary, Baylor University, Waco TX and ask him how many Arminians there are in Southern Baptist ranks? Here's a link to his details at the seminary: Roger E Olson, and there's even an email contact to reach him. Why don't you seek and answer as to why the Southern Baptists hired him at its seminary? He's a professor of theology and ethics.

Oz

P.S. I don't know what is going on here, but the software won't let me do a link to Roger E Olson. So here's the URL: http://www.baylor.edu/truett/index.php?id=83411
 
Mike S said:
It doesn't matter what the Bible says. God is sovereign over all the universe. God revealed the Bible, God can change anything in the Bible. We cannot presume to know what God can and can't do.
Click to expand...
So how do you know about Jesus' death, burial and resurrection without biblical content?

If 'God can change anything in the Bible', how does he do that and let us know what is now wrong or changed?
 
FreeGrace said:
I'm surprised that an Arminian would be teaching at a Baptist Seminary. I've never heard of a Baptist who believed that salvation could be lost. And certainly not all Baptists are reformed.
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See the article in Christianity Today, 'As Baptists Prepare to Meet, Calvinism Debate Shifts to Heresy Accusation' and you'll see some of the Calvinistic and Arminian debate in the Southern Baptist Convention. Here you will read statements from Dr Albert Mohler and Dr Roger Olson.
 
So, has God changed anything? That would be my question although in my heart I believe the answer is a resounding, "No! Absolutely not! No way!"
 
Mike S said:
I'd say that's a rather narrow view of sovereignty; 'I'm the creator of the universe...but, I can't really change anything.'
Click to expand...
The problem is thinking that sovereignty allows God to be frivolous. I supported my view That God is unchangeable. Your view hasn't been supported by any Scripture.

What about Heb 13:8?

Mark Twain can delete entire chapters, erase characters, change their nature, and redo the ending of the story, but the creator of the universe gets only one shot at things.
Click to expand...
So, comparing MT with God, eh? apples and oranges.
 
OzSpen said:
So how do you know about Jesus' death, burial and resurrection without biblical content?

If 'God can change anything in the Bible', how does he do that and let us know what is now wrong or changed?
Click to expand...
The real problem with Mike S's assertion is that if God did change anything, it would indicate that He isn't omniscient. Truth never needs changing, or even tweaking. It's us imperfect humans who need changing and tweaking.

Perfection is just that; perfect. Never needs changing.

But his view does reveal his view of who God is. And I'm not buying.
 
God made the 24 hour day ... was that ever adjusted?

Gen 18:24 Peradventure there be fifty righteous within the city: wilt thou also destroy and not spare the place for the fifty righteous that are therein?
Gen 18:32 And he said, Oh let not the Lord be angry, and I will speak yet but this once: Peradventure ten shall be found there. And he said, I will not destroy it for ten's sake.
God created everything... He said it was good yet He flooded just about everything..

From what i know of our brother he is a Godly man seems to me his words are being taken out of context.. I will wait and see... not be quick to judge..
 
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