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Tatilina
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Desire to be a vessel of honor unto the Lord Jesus Christ?
Join For His Glory for a discussion on how
https://christianforums.net/threads/a-vessel-of-honor.110278/
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Taking the time to pray? Christ is the answer in times of need
https://christianforums.net/threads/psalm-70-1-save-me-o-god-lord-help-me-now.108509/
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Depending upon the Holy Spirit for all you do?
Read through the following study by Tenchi for more on this topic
https://christianforums.net/threads/without-the-holy-spirit-we-can-do-nothing.109419/
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How are famous preachers sometimes effected by sin?
Join Sola Scriptura for a discussion on the subject
https://christianforums.net/threads/anointed-preaching-teaching.109331/#post-1912042
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Why Do You Believe?
- Thread starter GodsGrace
- Start date
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Tatilina
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2 Corinthians 5:1-13 NIV
1For we know that if the earthly tent we live in is destroyed, we have a building from God, an eternal house in heaven, not built by human hands. 2Meanwhile we groan, longing to be clothed instead with our heavenly dwelling, 3because when we are clothed, we will not be found naked. 4For while we are in this tent, we groan and are burdened, because we do not wish to be unclothed but to be clothed instead with our heavenly dwelling, so that what is mortal may be swallowed up by life. 5Now the one who has fashioned us for this very purpose is God, who has given us the Spirit as a deposit, guaranteeing what is to come.
6Therefore we are always confident and know that as long as we are at home in the body we are away from the Lord. 7For we live by faith, not by sight. 8We are confident, I say, and would prefer to be away from the body and at home with the Lord. 9So we make it our goal to please him, whether we are at home in the body or away from it. 10For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, so that each of us may receive what is due us for the things done while in the body, whether good or bad.
The Ministry of Reconciliation
11Since, then, we know what it is to fear the Lord, we try to persuade others. What we are is plain to God, and I hope it is also plain to your conscience. 12We are not trying to commend ourselves to you again, but are giving you an opportunity to take pride in us, so that you can answer those who take pride in what is seen rather than in what is in the heart. 13If we are “out of our mind,” as some say, it is for God; if we are in our right mind, it is for you.
I love this scripture in it’s proper context, but I bolded the part in terms of appearing out of my mind for God.
Oh I see this is how I feel about my relationship with God.
For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even His eternal power and Godhead, so that they are without excuse, because, although they knew God, they did not glorify Him as God, nor were thankful, but became futile in their thoughts, and their foolish hearts were darkened. Professing to be wise, they became fools, and changed the glory of the incorruptible God into an image made like corruptible man—and birds and four-footed animals and creeping things.
Therefore God also gave them up to uncleanness, in the lusts of their hearts, to dishonor their bodies among themselves, who exchanged the truth of God for the lie, and worshiped and served the creature rather than the Creator, who is blessed forever. Amen. Romans 1:20-25 NKJV
R
Runner
Guest
As I've said many times before, belief is a product of one's experiences, observations, studies and intuition. No one actually believes anything other than what he or she is capable of believing. Many people pretend to believe things they don't actually believe, perhaps in the hope they will eventually convince themselves. These folks and their insecurity and fear are generally pretty obvious, on these forums and elsewhere.
The Great Divide of all humanity is between those who have a spiritual worldview and those who have a purely materialistic worldview. Until someone is at least open to crossing the Great Divide, all the gospel-spreading you do is likely to be fruitless.
In my case, I crossed the Great Divide due to my own paranormal experiences suggesting the survival of consciousness after death, extensive and serious studies of the evidence for mind-body dualism (i.e., consciousness and the mind are not produced by the brain) and the survival of consciousness after death, and a strong intuition from a very early age that life was fundamentally spiritual. None of this had anything to do with Christianity per se.
If someone is truly on the materialistic side of the Great Divide, I always encourage him or her to dive into the same sort of evidence I did - the evidence that the materialistic worldview is badly flawed. Most people are, of course, too lazy to do this, but if so they are probably not good candidates for a sincere Christian conversion either.
My belief that Christianity is the "most likely to be true" of the spiritual options is based on the fact that it best explains the reality in which I live. It accords the best with my experience and observation that we live in a created universe, that human nature is fundamentally flawed in a mysterious way that cannot be overcome through human effort, and that humanity is in a downward spiral toward oblivion. If someone is on the spiritual side of the Great Divide, these to me are the strongest selling points for Christianity.
Every other spiritual worldview hinges on human nature not being fundamentally flawed, humans being able to rise above their imperfections through their own efforts, and humanity being on a path toward an ever-better world (perhaps even self-achieved divinity). If this is someone's position, we have little to talk about because I believe that person is delusional; he or she must live in a different reality than I do.
It is only after one has made a leap of faith that one really begins to believe in the truth of Christianity, to know the reality of the Holy Spirit. I don't find the arguments that the Bible is chock-full of fulfilled prophecies convincing, and I doubt seriously that anyone else would be compelled to cross the Great Divide on this basis. A solid case can be made that the Resurrection occurred as a real-world, historical and supernatural event, but this would likewise be a tough sell to someone who was still on the materialistic side of the Great Divide. If someone is genuinely on the materialistic side of the Great Divide, I think you need to bring them closer to the line before any of the arguments for Christianity are really going to register.
I think the best you can do is describe in some detail how you came to believe and why you do believe, and let the chips fall where they may. As one who now cringes at the "witnessing" he did with Campus Crusade and as a Southern Baptist, I think most of that sort of witnessing is next to useless and seldom produces meaningful conversions. It's mostly an exercise in self-congratulation and self-delusion on the part of those doing the "witnessing" - look at us, we're fulfilling the Great Commission.
Frank Turek, the host of Cross Examined on the radio, always shrieks at the start of every program: "Know why people are so easily talked out of Christianity? Because THEY'VE NEVER BEEN TALKED INTO IT!" But people aren't "talked into" genuine belief at all. They arrive at genuine belief on the basis of their experiences, observations, studies and intuition, and because Christianity provides the best answers to the big questions with which they've been grappling.
So basically, I think you have to know your audience (i.e., where is the person in relation to the Great Divide?) and tailor your explanation of the how and why of your own belief to that person, trusting that the Holy Spirit will bring your efforts to fruition now or in the future.
One approach, of course, is that everything I have said is irrelevant, it is simply our job to present the gospel, and the response will be favorable if the Holy Spirit has prepared the heart of the recipient. This was the premise of the sort of "witnessing" I did with Campus Crusade and the Southern Baptists. This simplistic approach certainly has its place, but you wouldn't get far with most of the intelligent, thoughtful people I know.
The Great Divide of all humanity is between those who have a spiritual worldview and those who have a purely materialistic worldview. Until someone is at least open to crossing the Great Divide, all the gospel-spreading you do is likely to be fruitless.
In my case, I crossed the Great Divide due to my own paranormal experiences suggesting the survival of consciousness after death, extensive and serious studies of the evidence for mind-body dualism (i.e., consciousness and the mind are not produced by the brain) and the survival of consciousness after death, and a strong intuition from a very early age that life was fundamentally spiritual. None of this had anything to do with Christianity per se.
If someone is truly on the materialistic side of the Great Divide, I always encourage him or her to dive into the same sort of evidence I did - the evidence that the materialistic worldview is badly flawed. Most people are, of course, too lazy to do this, but if so they are probably not good candidates for a sincere Christian conversion either.
My belief that Christianity is the "most likely to be true" of the spiritual options is based on the fact that it best explains the reality in which I live. It accords the best with my experience and observation that we live in a created universe, that human nature is fundamentally flawed in a mysterious way that cannot be overcome through human effort, and that humanity is in a downward spiral toward oblivion. If someone is on the spiritual side of the Great Divide, these to me are the strongest selling points for Christianity.
Every other spiritual worldview hinges on human nature not being fundamentally flawed, humans being able to rise above their imperfections through their own efforts, and humanity being on a path toward an ever-better world (perhaps even self-achieved divinity). If this is someone's position, we have little to talk about because I believe that person is delusional; he or she must live in a different reality than I do.
It is only after one has made a leap of faith that one really begins to believe in the truth of Christianity, to know the reality of the Holy Spirit. I don't find the arguments that the Bible is chock-full of fulfilled prophecies convincing, and I doubt seriously that anyone else would be compelled to cross the Great Divide on this basis. A solid case can be made that the Resurrection occurred as a real-world, historical and supernatural event, but this would likewise be a tough sell to someone who was still on the materialistic side of the Great Divide. If someone is genuinely on the materialistic side of the Great Divide, I think you need to bring them closer to the line before any of the arguments for Christianity are really going to register.
I think the best you can do is describe in some detail how you came to believe and why you do believe, and let the chips fall where they may. As one who now cringes at the "witnessing" he did with Campus Crusade and as a Southern Baptist, I think most of that sort of witnessing is next to useless and seldom produces meaningful conversions. It's mostly an exercise in self-congratulation and self-delusion on the part of those doing the "witnessing" - look at us, we're fulfilling the Great Commission.
Frank Turek, the host of Cross Examined on the radio, always shrieks at the start of every program: "Know why people are so easily talked out of Christianity? Because THEY'VE NEVER BEEN TALKED INTO IT!" But people aren't "talked into" genuine belief at all. They arrive at genuine belief on the basis of their experiences, observations, studies and intuition, and because Christianity provides the best answers to the big questions with which they've been grappling.
So basically, I think you have to know your audience (i.e., where is the person in relation to the Great Divide?) and tailor your explanation of the how and why of your own belief to that person, trusting that the Holy Spirit will bring your efforts to fruition now or in the future.
One approach, of course, is that everything I have said is irrelevant, it is simply our job to present the gospel, and the response will be favorable if the Holy Spirit has prepared the heart of the recipient. This was the premise of the sort of "witnessing" I did with Campus Crusade and the Southern Baptists. This simplistic approach certainly has its place, but you wouldn't get far with most of the intelligent, thoughtful people I know.
R
Runner
Guest
Whoever said that did not understand Pascal's Wager. Pascal was an extremely subtle and sophisticated thinker, not some simplistic dolt. He knew you don't "believe" merely by choosing to do so because the consequences of non-belief could be disastrous. He wasn't suggesting you bet on God. What he was suggesting was that if you begin to live your life as though Christianity were (might be) true, you are likely to find that it blossoms - that it reveals its truths to you and that you actually begin to believe that it is true. That is the wager - treat it as though it were true long enough to allow it to show you that it is true. The "simplistic dolt" version of Pascal's Wager is a favorite atheist straw man.
For witnessing to the the brainy types, Josh McDowell wrote Evidence that Demands a Verdict. He lists things that a braniac seeker might find interesting. Hugh Ross wrote a series of books for witnessing to astrophysicists. Most people, you just preach the Gospel to them.
And they went out and preached everywhere, the Lord working with them and confirming the word through the accompanying signs. Amen NKJV Mark 16:20 NKJV
And they went out and preached everywhere, the Lord working with them and confirming the word through the accompanying signs. Amen NKJV Mark 16:20 NKJV
GodsGrace
CF Ambassador
One of my favorite scriptures. Don't know how many times I've posted it.
God has always been available to those who seek something bigger than they are.
There have always been spiritual persons with a soft heart.
GodsGrace
CF Ambassador
Great post, as usual.
I'd like to pat myself on the back and agree with all you've said.
I like your idea about consciousness. It certainly does not come from the brain since the brain takes care of "materialistic" functions, such as breathing and memory.
WHERE is the conscience in the body?? It's in the soul. And what IS the soul...etc.
I've had a supernatural experience and will not speak to anyone about it because they might think I'm missing just one little screw, or one card short of a full deck.
Let's just say that, yes, there must be life after death.
The only other comment I'll make is that I sometimes can tell exactly at what point of the divide the person is, and at other times I get fooled. Normal maybe. We can only do our best. The Holy Spirit will do the rest.
GodsGrace
CF Ambassador
It's simplistic, but it's IS true.
The one who believes is covered.
Of course, Paschal's wager, and how he meant it, is also true in that one cannot be readily convinced by coming up with smart sayings.
Your idea of a good person becoming more open to Christianity is very interesting.
This is an idea from Catholicism. The friar where I go to study once a month, has said that a person who does good is more open to goodness. I think this is true because they have a softer heart for the Holy Spirit to work with. Although we all know that hardened criminals can be saved too. Goodness gets one closer to a "god" and the next step is to know God, the creator.
Thanks for your very thoughtful posts.
GodsGrace
CF Ambassador
Do you feel comfortable sharing more details?
GodsGrace
CF Ambassador
No problem. It was a wonderful day.
I was praying about something and Jesus spoke to me in my spirit. I didn't hear any words. But the words I did "hear" worked for me and with the problem I was having. I didn't have the problem again for about 30 years.
So Jesus presented Himself to me in the sense that He introduced Himself.
I felt like I got to know Him. I felt like I knew God and understood everything.
Of course, I didn't and it took years of learning. For instance I thought I had solved the problem of evil. And for myself I had...but then it cropped up again.
I must say that, yes, Christianity is the religion that most answers all our questions of what we're doing here.
So Jesus became real to me. But unless someone has an experience like this, they won't really understand it. I'm sure most here have...
Yes, I understand that. Thank you for sharing.
R
Runner
Guest
Thanks, wondering. I am increasingly of the mindset that consciousness is the fundamental building block of the universe - that materialism is not only wrong, but 180 degrees wrong. This notion meshes well not only with quantum physics, but also with the biblical account of God speaking the universe into existence from nothing. "Our reality is God's dream" - I've always felt that this saying expressed a hidden truth. In the same vein, as you may know, one of the most common statements by near-death experiencers is, "The other side is the reality. This side is the illusion."
I, on the other hand, speak freely about mine. What I have discovered is that in any group of five people - relatives or co-workers, believers or non-believers, it doesn't matter - at least two will come back at you with some mind-blowing experience that makes anything you've experienced seem like small potatoes. This is true whether you raise the topic of after death communications, ghosts, miracles or even UFOs.
On these forums and elsewhere in Christianity, there is great fear of supernatural experiences. I happen to be reading the works of one of the Russian Orthodox saints, Ignatius Brianchaninov, and he couldn't be more stern in his warnings against rejecting any and all supernatural experiences, even at the risk of rejecting ones that might actually be divine in nature. I find this absurd. The Great Divide in this case, I believe, is between actively seeking supernatural experiences (very dangerous) and accepting those that come to you of their own accord. The ones that have come to me of their own accord, almost all involving my dearest relatives and friends, have been CENTRAL to my belief in the existence of a spiritual realm and the continuation of consciousness after death. I laugh in the face of anyone suggesting they were demonic in origin.
Right, and even stern old Ignatius Brianchaninov, whose main theme is that turning to Christ is merely a "seed" that must be faithfully watered throughout one's life for salvation to come to fruition, nevertheless believes that genuine deathbed conversions are sufficient for salvation.
The "simplistic dolt" version of Pascal's Wager is that he is saying "Just pretend you believe - tell yourself and everyone else that you do - and this will be good enough to get you into heaven." What he is really saying is that if you dive into the Christian way of life, even with no real belief or even expectations, you may find that your dive ripens into real belief.
Another of Brianchaninov's themes - and a major theme of Orthodoxy as well - is the need to continually focus on how utterly unworthy you are. The focus is to a degree that strikes me as almost pathological, one that would pretty much rob life of any and all joy. I actually believe - GASP! HERESY! - that I am quite a good person as people go: cheerful, kind, generous and most of the other Boy Scout virtues. To the chagrin of many, I am inordinately pleased with myself and always have been. The point for Christianity, however, is that I am most assuredly not HOLY. Holiness is God's standard. Even while being quite pleased with myself, I can certainly acknowledge that a lowlight reel of the worst 100 days or 500 events of my life would not be a pretty picture and that I am in desperate need of God's grace if the standard for admittance to his kingdom is holiness. This strikes me as a much healthier and no less Christian attitude than living in a constant state of self-flagellation over how unworthy I am and what "filthy rags" even my best deeds seem to God. Because of what human nature is (badly flawed), even my best deeds are not holy - but they are "filthy rags" only in the sense that someone who drives a Ferrari might describe my Ford as "a piece of junk."
Why some people simply are "good" while others are less so, regardless of what they do or don't believe, is a mystery. I sometimes think back over the 25 or so people in my life that I would characterize as "exceptionally, fundamentally good," and there is no rhyme or reason in terms of what they believed. They were just "exceptionally good" in a palpable way that I would describe as "spiritual" without knowing whether some of them actually were. Although I never discussed this with any of them, I suspect they intuitively recognized that life has a deeper meaning and purpose than being the one who finishes with the most toys.
Wrg1405
Member