Why don't catholics carry statues of Paul?

[thessalonian]

I know that you directed this post at AV, but if you don't mind.............

I thought that about 1/2 of the Catholic 'canon' taught that anyone that accepted this idea was to be considered antithema. Maybe i misunderstand, but, I thought I had read that anyone that taught, 'by grace alone' was considered by Catholic doctrine to be an heretic. Guess I just don't understand what is meant by what I've read.

I would assume that ANYTHING offered that requires MORE than 'the grace of God', would be considered just that; taking more than the simple gift offered. Now let me ask you Thess, are you telling me that the Catholic church does teach 'grace alone'?

Site the canon. I know of none. I know of some that Protestants will apply their own definitiosn to and distort and twist out of context but I know of none that condemns grace alone.

Yes. The Catholic Church teaches we are saved by grace alone.

Grace is 'gift' correct? But I know that the Catholic church only considers those worthy capable of receiving this gift. That if, let's say, I were to consider myself to be 'saved' by the 'grace of God', yet did not accept the Catholic 'doctrine', I would NOT be considered 'saved' by a Catholic. So obviously, grace alone, is not capable of saving ANYONE other than a Catholic.

Leave the explaining of Catholic theology to someone who knows what they are talking about. You don't. I'll not waste alot of time with you anymore so just state the canon you think says those who believe in grace alone are condemned.

Blessings

 

[Imagican]

Thess,

You choose to evade my point. I don't need to quote cannon to prove my point. You can quote it yourself. I don't choose to even read it.

Here's the point once again. If your cannon teaches that I must follow IT in order to receive 'grace', then obviously it teaches that 'grace ALONE' isn't enough. It's really THAT simple. Isn't it?

 

[TruthHunter]

How does the Catholic Church not teach we are saved by Grace?

A valid question, I suppose, but off topic to the subject at hand. You can check out several threads on Mary in the "Apologetics" Forum.

Peace,
Vic

I'm sorry to disagree with you Vic, but this IS an underlying piece of the topic explicitly at hand. It is obvious that there is a misunderstanding of what Catholics believe. We are saved by Grace and through participation in God's Grace, but through God's Grace none the less. The Reformers understanding of Salvation through Grace, was quite a new idea, not know to the Apostles and Early Christians.

 

[TruthHunter]

I thought that about 1/2 of the Catholic 'canon' taught that anyone that accepted this idea was to be considered antithema. Maybe i misunderstand, but, I thought I had read that anyone that taught, 'by grace alone' was considered by Catholic doctrine to be an heretic. Guess I just don't understand what is meant by what I've read.

I would assume that ANYTHING offered that requires MORE than 'the grace of God', would be considered just that; taking more than the simple gift offered. Now let me ask you Thess, are you telling me that the Catholic church does teach 'grace alone'?

Grace is 'gift' correct? But I know that the Catholic church only considers those worthy capable of receiving this gift. That if, let's say, I were to consider myself to be 'saved' by the 'grace of God', yet did not accept the Catholic 'doctrine', I would NOT be considered 'saved' by a Catholic. So obviously, grace alone, is not capable of saving ANYONE other than a Catholic.

Now, what differentiates Catholics from any one else that claim to accept Christ and the gift offered. Doctrine. The Catholic doctrine itself states that if I don't accept it then I'm not saved. So the grace of God ISN'T enough in the doctrine of Catholics. I have to follow all the 'laws' of the Catholic faith, or I'm an heretic, (unsaved). So, 'grace alone' is NOT enough and NOT what the Catholic church teaches. I am only capable of receiving 'grace' if I do it 'your way', (following ALL your doctrine).

Is this correct?

You choose to evade my point. I don't need to quote cannon to prove my point. You can quote it yourself. I don't choose to even read it.

So which is it, have you read it as the first quote from your posts claimed, or did you not read it as you last post claimed?

It is definately clear that you do not understand Catholic teaching. I unlike my good friend Thess, am not yet frustrated with you, so I will do my best at enlightenment. First you illude to (I think that is what you were trying to do anyway) to a Catholic teaching that does indeed teach "There is no Salvation outside of the Church." Do not take this at face falue however, because the teaching is much more than what it appears from this one liner often taken out of context. This teaching applies only to Catholics who have been taught the fullness of Truth given to us by God. In other words, by God's Grace he has revealed himself in fullness by Christ and his teaching to and through the apostles. To be taught this fullness and reject it is in fact rejecting the Fullness of God's Grace. God however will not require the impossible out of us. Therefore, if someone has never been taught the fullness of the Truth, or falls into the Category of irecconcilable ignorance, then God's Grace covers them in a different way. it is a case of the normative vs. extraordianry means of God's Grace. The normative and prefered way is by following the fullness of Christ'steachings, whereas those who have not been taught or cannot be taught fall into the extraordinary.

The Catholic Church DOES teach that we are saved by Grace, however I think you are confusing Sola Fide in with it. We are saved by God's Grace, however we must cooperate with this Grace in our Faith, and ACTIONs. Therefore is can be legitamatly said by a Catholic.

 

[AVBunyan]

FIND THE CANON THAT SAYS IT"S "NOT BY GRACE ALONE" AV or be a liar. Quote them. Do you quote them saying something that is not what you say, then applying your own definition to it and twisting it. There is no statement by trent that says we are not saved by grace alone. We are saved by grace alone. The problem is faith alone.

• "If any one saith, that by faith alone the impious is justified; in such wise as to mean, that nothing else is required to co-operate in order to the obtaining the grace of Justification, and that it is not in any way necessary, that he be prepared and disposed by the movement of his own will; let him be anathema" (Council of Trent, Canons on Justification, Canon 9).

• "If any one saith, that man is truly absolved from his sins and justified, because he assuredly believed himself absolved and justified; or, that no one is truly justified but he who believes himself justified; and that, by this faith alone, absolution and justification are effected; let him be anathema." (Canon 14).

"If anyone says that justifying faith is nothing else than confidence in divine mercy, which remits sins for Christ's sake, or that it is this confidence alone that justifies us, LET HIM BE ANATHEMA" (Sixth Session, Canons Concerning Justification, Canon 12).

"If anyone says that the justice received is not preserved and also not increased before God through good works, but that those works are merely the fruits and signs of justification obtained, but not the cause of its increase, LET HIM BE ANATHEMA" (Sixth Session, Canons Concerning Justification, Canon 24).

For it is the liturgy through which, especially in the divine sacrifice of the Eucharist, 'the work of our redemption is accomplished,' and it is through the liturgy, especially, that the faithful are enabled to express in their lives and manifest to others the mystery of Christ and the real nature of the true Church" (Vatican II, Constitution on the Sacred Liturgy, Introduction, para. 2).

"As often as the sacrifice of the cross by which 'Christ our Pasch is sacrificed' (1 Cor. 5:7) is celebrated on the altar, the work of our redemption is carried out" (Vatican II, Dogmatic Constitution on the Church, Chapter 1, 3, p. 324).
"... [Christ] also willed that the work of salvation which they preached should be set in train through the sacrifice and sacraments, around which the entire liturgical [ritualistic] life revolves. Thus by Baptism men are grafted into the paschal mystery of Christ. ... They receive the spirit of adoption as sons" (Vatican II, Constitution on the Sacred Liturgy, Chap. 1, I, 5,6, pp. 23-24).

"From the most ancient times in the Church good works were also offered to God for the salvation of sinners, particularly the works which human weakness finds hard. Because the sufferings of the martyrs for the faith and for God's law were thought to be very valuable, penitents used to turn to the martyrs to be helped by their merits to obtain a more speedy reconciliation from the bishops. Indeed, the prayers and good works of holy people were regarded as of such great value that it could be asserted that the penitent was washed, cleansed and redeemed with the help of the entire Christian people" (Vatican II, Constitution on the Sacred Liturgy, Apostolic Constitution on the Revision of Indulgences, chap. 3, 6, pp. 78,79).
". . Baptism is the first and chief sacrament of forgiveness of sins because it unites us with Christ, who died for our sins and rose for our justification, so that 'we too might walk in newness of life,'" (Catechism of the Catholic Church par. 977).

"Justification has been merited for us by the Passion of Christ. It is granted us through Baptism. It conforms us to the righteousness of God, who justifies us. It has for its goal the glory of God and of Christ, and the gift of eternal life. It is the most excellent work of God's mercy," (CCC, par. 2020).

"As a means of regaining grace and justice, penance was at all times necessary for those who had defiled their souls with any mortal sin. . . .

"Christ instituted the sacrament of Penance for all sinful members of his Church: above all for those who, since Baptism, have fallen into grave sin, and have thus lost their baptismal grace and wounded ecclesial communion. It is to them that the sacrament of Penance offers a new possibility to convert and to recover the grace of justification. The Fathers of the Church present this sacrament as 'the second plank (of salvation) after the shipwreck which is the loss of grace,"

Haven't we been through this before?
Is this enough for you Thess - am I a liar? :-?

 

[AVBunyan]

1. Yes. The Catholic Church teaches we are saved by grace alone.

2. Leave the explaining of Catholic theology to someone who knows what they are talking about.

1. OK Thess you've been bullying people long enough with this type of rheteric - prove it - show me from Rome's official canons that Rome believes grace alone. You keep bullying us with your talk - now prove our statement or take your ball and go home - some of us have grown weary with your talk.

2. Well, Thess it is very obvioius you don't know what your own church teaches - you are a very typical Roman. You just talk big and expect people to run and hide - Some of ous don't run or hid - we read!

 

[Heidi]

Why don't catholics parade around with statues of Paul? Afterall, without Paul, we wouldn't have the NT today. And for that matter, why not carry statues of Peter too? We wouldn't have his epistles either without him. Then in no time, the catholics will look just like the Greek and Roman temples and forums where people are elevated above human status. Since they give people the credit for God's work, then instead of praying only to their Father in heaven, they can pray to all these people too, thus taking their time away from their Lord. Then they would really have support from the pagans!

You speak as if you know the answer, displaying your ignorance in asking the question. You don't really care what I say and have no desire to learn why we do what we do. We do not honor Mary or any of the saints expressly because of them. We honor them because of what GOD HAS DONE IN AND THROUGH THEM! Praise be to God. We do honor Paul. His name is on many of our churches and there are many statues of him. Paul did great things because of Christ working in him. Paul tells people to imitate him. He tells them to imitate Christ. He speaks in honor of Abraham and Moses. Yet if we speak the name of Mary or Paul or Peter we are pagans. If we consider the lives of saints, including Paul we are worshipping them. If we honor a Pope it is worship. You people don't have any definitions. Your winging it and making up things as you go, espcially to make points against Catholics.

Blessings

Well, Jesus said; "No one is good but God alone."

"No one is good but God alone."

"No one is good but God alone."

But it doesn't appear to matter how many times the catholics hear that.
They ignore Jesus anyway. That means; no one, but God. How is it my fault the catholics ignore Jesus? :-?

 

[TruthHunter]

MY WORDS ARE BLUE

• "If any one saith, that by faith alone the impious is justified; in such wise as to mean, that nothing else is required to co-operate in order to the obtaining the grace of Justification, and that it is not in any way necessary, that he be prepared and disposed by the movement of his own will; let him be anathema" (Council of Trent, Canons on Justification, Canon 9).

Rigtht as this canon points out, Justification by FAITH ALONE. This means that we do need to Co-operate in order to obatian God's Grace. Where does this mean we are not saved by Grace.

• "If any one saith, that man is truly absolved from his sins and justified, because he assuredly believed himself absolved and justified; or, that no one is truly justified but he who believes himself justified; and that, by this faith alone, absolution and justification are effected; let him be anathema." (Canon 14).

Again talking about Faith Alone, this canon does not deal with Grace

"If anyone says that justifying faith is nothing else than confidence in divine mercy, which remits sins for Christ's sake, or that it is this confidence alone that justifies us, LET HIM BE ANATHEMA" (Sixth Session, Canons Concerning Justification, Canon 12).

Right, because we must co-operate in our actions as well as our Fatih to recieve God's Grace as Christ comanded many many times.

"If anyone says that the justice received is not preserved and also not increased before God through good works, but that those works are merely the fruits and signs of justification obtained, but not the cause of its increase, LET HIM BE ANATHEMA" (Sixth Session, Canons Concerning Justification, Canon 24).

Again doesn't deal with Salvation by Grace, buy instead is still dealing with Justification and Faith.

For it is the liturgy through which, especially in the divine sacrifice of the Eucharist, 'the work of our redemption is accomplished,' and it is through the liturgy, especially, that the faithful are enabled to express in their lives and manifest to others the mystery of Christ and the real nature of the true Church" (Vatican II, Constitution on the Sacred Liturgy, Introduction, para. 2).

What is your problem with this? Christ told us we must eat his Flesh and drink his Blood in order to enter the Kingdom of heaven. This happens at the Mass, so thus redemption is finished there.

"As often as the sacrifice of the cross by which 'Christ our Pasch is sacrificed' (1 Cor. 5:7) is celebrated on the altar, the work of our redemption is carried out" (Vatican II, Dogmatic Constitution on the Church, Chapter 1, 3, p. 324).
"... [Christ] also willed that the work of salvation which they preached should be set in train through the sacrifice and sacraments, around which the entire liturgical [ritualistic] life revolves. Thus by Baptism men are grafted into the paschal mystery of Christ. ... They receive the spirit of adoption as sons" (Vatican II, Constitution on the Sacred Liturgy, Chap. 1, I, 5,6, pp. 23-24).

Again I'm confused with what this is supposed to show in regards to how Catholics don't believe we are saved by Grace?

"From the most ancient times in the Church good works were also offered to God for the salvation of sinners, particularly the works which human weakness finds hard. Because the sufferings of the martyrs for the faith and for God's law were thought to be very valuable, penitents used to turn to the martyrs to be helped by their merits to obtain a more speedy reconciliation from the bishops. Indeed, the prayers and good works of holy people were regarded as of such great value that it could be asserted that the penitent was washed, cleansed and redeemed with the help of the entire Christian people" (Vatican II, Constitution on the Sacred Liturgy, Apostolic Constitution on the Revision of Indulgences, chap. 3, 6, pp. 78,79).

We are still saved by God's Grace.

". . Baptism is the first and chief sacrament of forgiveness of sins because it unites us with Christ, who died for our sins and rose for our justification, so that 'we too might walk in newness of life,'" (Catechism of the Catholic Church par. 977).

Again doesn't show Catholics aren't saved by GRACE

"Justification has been merited for us by the Passion of Christ. It is granted us through Baptism. It conforms us to the righteousness of God, who justifies us. It has for its goal the glory of God and of Christ, and the gift of eternal life. It is the most excellent work of God's mercy," (CCC, par. 2020).

How do you think this applies to Grace?

"As a means of regaining grace and justice, penance was at all times necessary for those who had defiled their souls with any mortal sin. . . .

Why do penance? Because we NEED grace. and penance is a MEANS to regain that GRACE.

"Christ instituted the sacrament of Penance for all sinful members of his Church: above all for those who, since Baptism, have fallen into grave sin, and have thus lost their baptismal grace and wounded ecclesial communion. It is to them that the sacrament of Penance offers a new possibility to convert and to recover the grace of justification. The Fathers of the Church present this sacrament as 'the second plank (of salvation) after the shipwreck which is the loss of grace,"


LOOK, the passage you quotes talks about regaining the Grace. It is obvious to anyone who reads this in context of the TRUE Catholic Teaching that these passages go to re-enforce that WE NEED GRACE to be saved.

Justification by Faith Alone, and Grace Alnoe are two different things which you have confused, or at least inadverta
ntly confusing.

Haven't we been through this before?
Is this enough for you Thess - am I a liar? :-?

I can't speak for Thess, however I respond,
1) If you have gone through this before, I would have expected better premises and arguments
2) Reardless of whether it's enough for Thess, I know it's not enough for me.

 

[Heidi]

MY WORDS ARE BLUE

• "If any one saith, that by faith alone the impious is justified; in such wise as to mean, that nothing else is required to co-operate in order to the obtaining the grace of Justification, and that it is not in any way necessary, that he be prepared and disposed by the movement of his own will; let him be anathema" (Council of Trent, Canons on Justification, Canon 9).

Rigtht as this canon points out, Justification by FAITH ALONE. This means that we do need to Co-operate in order to obatian God's Grace. Where does this mean we are not saved by Grace.

• "If any one saith, that man is truly absolved from his sins and justified, because he assuredly believed himself absolved and justified; or, that no one is truly justified but he who believes himself justified; and that, by this faith alone, absolution and justification are effected; let him be anathema." (Canon 14).

Again talking about Faith Alone, this canon does not deal with Grace

"If anyone says that justifying faith is nothing else than confidence in divine mercy, which remits sins for Christ's sake, or that it is this confidence alone that justifies us, LET HIM BE ANATHEMA" (Sixth Session, Canons Concerning Justification, Canon 12).

Right, because we must co-operate in our actions as well as our Fatih to recieve God's Grace as Christ comanded many many times.

"If anyone says that the justice received is not preserved and also not increased before God through good works, but that those works are merely the fruits and signs of justification obtained, but not the cause of its increase, LET HIM BE ANATHEMA" (Sixth Session, Canons Concerning Justification, Canon 24).

Again doesn't deal with Salvation by Grace, buy instead is still dealing with Justification and Faith.

For it is the liturgy through which, especially in the divine sacrifice of the Eucharist, 'the work of our redemption is accomplished,' and it is through the liturgy, especially, that the faithful are enabled to express in their lives and manifest to others the mystery of Christ and the real nature of the true Church" (Vatican II, Constitution on the Sacred Liturgy, Introduction, para. 2).

What is your problem with this? Christ told us we must eat his Flesh and drink his Blood in order to enter the Kingdom of heaven. This happens at the Mass, so thus redemption is finished there.

"As often as the sacrifice of the cross by which 'Christ our Pasch is sacrificed' (1 Cor. 5:7) is celebrated on the altar, the work of our redemption is carried out" (Vatican II, Dogmatic Constitution on the Church, Chapter 1, 3, p. 324).
"... [Christ] also willed that the work of salvation which they preached should be set in train through the sacrifice and sacraments, around which the entire liturgical [ritualistic] life revolves. Thus by Baptism men are grafted into the paschal mystery of Christ. ... They receive the spirit of adoption as sons" (Vatican II, Constitution on the Sacred Liturgy, Chap. 1, I, 5,6, pp. 23-24).

Again I'm confused with what this is supposed to show in regards to how Catholics don't believe we are saved by Grace?

"From the most ancient times in the Church good works were also offered to God for the salvation of sinners, particularly the works which human weakness finds hard. Because the sufferings of the martyrs for the faith and for God's law were thought to be very valuable, penitents used to turn to the martyrs to be helped by their merits to obtain a more speedy reconciliation from the bishops. Indeed, the prayers and good works of holy people were regarded as of such great value that it could be asserted that the penitent was washed, cleansed and redeemed with the help of the entire Christian people" (Vatican II, Constitution on the Sacred Liturgy, Apostolic Constitution on the Revision of Indulgences, chap. 3, 6, pp. 78,79).

We are still saved by God's Grace.

". . Baptism is the first and chief sacrament of forgiveness of sins because it unites us with Christ, who died for our sins and rose for our justification, so that 'we too might walk in newness of life,'" (Catechism of the Catholic Church par. 977).

Again doesn't show Catholics aren't saved by GRACE

"Justification has been merited for us by the Passion of Christ. It is granted us through Baptism. It conforms us to the righteousness of God, who justifies us. It has for its goal the glory of God and of Christ, and the gift of eternal life. It is the most excellent work of God's mercy," (CCC, par. 2020).

How do you think this applies to Grace?

"As a means of regaining grace and justice, penance was at all times necessary for those who had defiled their souls with any mortal sin. . . .

Why do penance? Because we NEED grace. and penance is a MEANS to regain that GRACE.

"Christ instituted the sacrament of Penance for all sinful members of his Church: above all for those who, since Baptism, have fallen into grave sin, and have thus lost their baptismal grace and wounded ecclesial communion. It is to them that the sacrament of Penance offers a new possibility to convert and to recover the grace of justification. The Fathers of the Church present this sacrament as 'the second plank (of salvation) after the shipwreck which is the loss of grace,"


LOOK, the passage you quotes talks about regaining the Grace. It is obvious to anyone who reads this in context of the TRUE Catholic Teaching that these passages go to re-enforce that WE NEED GRACE to be saved.

Justification by Faith Alone, and Grace Alnoe are two different things which you have confused, or at least inadverta
ntly confusing.

Haven't we been through this before?
Is this enough for you Thess - am I a liar? :-?

I can't speak for Thess, however I respond,
1) If you have gone through this before, I would have expected better premises and arguments
2) Reardless of whether it's enough for Thess, I know it's not enough for me.

In response to your signature:

Oh Paul, Paul, you are the father of the gospel. I bow down to your graven image that i made of you in disobedience to the second commandment. But you are holy, holy, holy. I know your Lord told us that no one is good but God alone, but you are the father of the gospel, so Jesus is wrong. I pray to you day and night as well as to Mary of whom you make no mention. So you must be wrong also but I bow down to fallible human beings and pray to them anyway. I know I could be using this time to pray to my Father in heaven, but I give you the credit for what you did, not God's power in you. I do the same to Mary even though she thought her Son was crazy. Jesus also told us that a man cannot be a prophet among his relatives so even though Mary didn't worship Jesus for who he was, I chose Mary to pray to. Afterall, if it wasn't for Mary, God would have never had the ability to choose someone else through whom to bear Jesus! Boy God sure lucked out that Mary said she would do it! She is the one we should praise or God's will would never have gotten done!

I have to go now because there are other people to whom I have to pray. I might possibly have time to pray to God, but with all these people I praise, God might get some of my time. I even bought some beads that I have to hold while I pray to Mary. Sometimes I even pray to these beads! Afterall, if i don't hold onto them, God...I mean Mary might not hear me! I hope she does now because she doesn't talk to me. Oh well. I certainly need her because without her, God's not big enough to hear me or show me His will.

 

[TruthHunter]

Heidi,

I don't know how you got all of that from my signature. And your post is filled with misconceptions of the Catholic Church. Have you even studied what the Catholic Church REALLY teaches about prayer, and the Saints? Becausae if you did you must have tried to read it in French thinking it was English.

There is alot you have in there which needs to be addressed, however I don't have much time right now. So I will start with the second paragraph of your post.

"I might possibly have time to pray to God." Please, if this is your conception of real Catholics then you are living in a dream world. We are to Pray always, and constantly to God. I don't know about you, but I find it quite easy to be doing a task and praying to God at the same time. There is never a question that one needs to pray to God, and should pray always.

Second one does not need a rosary (the beads) to pray the rosary (the prayer). I can pray it at anytime with or without beads. The beads just help you keep track of where you are. It also helps us to use our bodies, as we lift up our prayers to heaven. it is not a matter of God not being big enough to hear someone or show his will, it's about the communion of the Saints, the communion of all Christians. The ability to pray for each other. By your logic I can assume then that you never pray for those in the Hospital, or for sick friends. you obviously would never pray that God may bring the lost souls to him, because that would mean that God is not powerful enough to hear and care about the indivisual's prayers, right?

I am truley amzed at how base your post was.

Ben

 

[AVBunyan]

I can't speak for Thess, however I respond,
1) If you have gone through this before, I would have expected better premises and arguments
2) Reardless of whether it's enough for Thess, I know it's not enough for me.[/color]

You just don't know what grace is - your view of grace is confused.

Grace means Christ plus nothing. God doesn't need your cooperation or except your cooperation. Your cooperation is what God calls "filthy rags".

Also - does Rome teach eternal security? I think not - so...Rome teaches works salvation.

 

[thessalonian]

Thess,

You choose to evade my point. I don't need to quote cannon to prove my point. You can quote it yourself. I don't choose to even read it.

Here's the point once again. If your cannon teaches that I must follow IT in order to receive 'grace', then obviously it teaches that 'grace ALONE' isn't enough. It's really THAT simple. Isn't it?

No evaision at all:

I thought that about 1/2 of the Catholic 'canon' taught that anyone that accepted this idea was to be considered antithema. Maybe i misunderstand, but, I thought I had read that anyone that taught, 'by grace alone' was considered by Catholic doctrine to be an heretic. Guess I just don't understand what is meant by what I've read.

Your telling us what our Catholic canon teaches, you quote the canon and I will explain it for you. What half of what canon. You have to show me what canon your are talking about. You have to support your accusations with quotes or admit your ignorance of the canons and yuo might not know what you are talking about with regard to Catholicism. Your arguement is a rather nonsensical one. Do you claim I have to follow the bible? Is the Bible Jesus? Mine doesn't have two legs and create universes last I checked. So I guess your telling me I have to follow something that is not God. Back up your statments with quotes and intelligence or get out of the conversation. I'll not waste my time with you if you act as if you know about Catholicism. You don't.

 

[thessalonian]

I can't speak for Thess, however I respond,
1) If you have gone through this before, I would have expected better premises and arguments
2) Reardless of whether it's enough for Thess, I know it's not enough for me.[/color]

You just don't know what grace is - your view of grace is confused.

Grace means Christ plus nothing. God doesn't need your cooperation or except your cooperation. Your cooperation is what God calls "filthy rags".

Also - does Rome teach eternal security? I think not - so...Rome teaches works salvation.

Grace is God working in and through us. For you it's just a wink about our sins. Oh, their forgiven. No they have to be more than forgiven. They have to be cleansed from us. They have to be rooted out. We have to have help to overcome then and turn away from them. Grace through the Holy Spirit working in and through us is the key.

Blessings

 

[thessalonian]

1. Yes. The Catholic Church teaches we are saved by grace alone.

2. Leave the explaining of Catholic theology to someone who knows what they are talking about.

1. OK Thess you've been bullying people long enough with this type of rheteric - prove it - show me from Rome's official canons that Rome believes grace alone. You keep bullying us with your talk - now prove our statement or take your ball and go home - some of us have grown weary with your talk.

2. Well, Thess it is very obvioius you don't know what your own church teaches - you are a very typical Roman. You just talk big and expect people to run and hide - Some of ous don't run or hid - we read!

AV, I searched through your whole post and don't see one condemnation of anyone for believing they are saved by grace alone. All I see is your twisting of what the Catholic canons say, So,

Is this enough for you Thess - am I a liar?

It is you who have said it. I'll post some statements by sources for you later.

 

[TruthHunter]

I can't speak for Thess, however I respond,
1) If you have gone through this before, I would have expected better premises and arguments
2) Reardless of whether it's enough for Thess, I know it's not enough for me.[/color]

You just don't know what grace is - your view of grace is confused.

Grace means Christ plus nothing. God doesn't need your cooperation or except your cooperation. Your cooperation is what God calls "filthy rags".

Also - does Rome teach eternal security? I think not - so...Rome teaches works salvation.

AV if that is really your definition of Grace then it needs work. :o

Grace: definition 4a (In Christian Belief) the unmerited favor of God. b the state of recieving this. c. a divinely given talent

State of Garce: The person who is living in friendship with God. This gift is offered by God to all but may be accepted or rejected by each individual

You see the nature of Free Will means that OUR co-operation with God's Grace IS necessary. 8-)

Yes the ENTIRE Catholic Church, and Orthodox Church teach that our actions directly effect our salvation (not just "Rome"). If you would like I can provide biblical quotes which show expressly that this is indeed the case. :wink:

 

[SputnikBoy]

I have to go now because there are other people to whom I have to pray. I might possibly have time to pray to God, but with all these people I praise, God might get some of my time. I even bought some beads that I have to hold while I pray to Mary. Sometimes I even pray to these beads! Afterall, if i don't hold onto them, God...I mean Mary might not hear me! I hope she does now because she doesn't talk to me. Oh well. I certainly need her because without her, God's not big enough to hear me or show me His will.

Hmmm ...not too bad, Heidi!

 

[thessalonian]

I have to go now because there are other people to whom I have to pray. I might possibly have time to pray to God, but with all these people I praise, God might get some of my time. I even bought some beads that I have to hold while I pray to Mary. Sometimes I even pray to these beads! Afterall, if i don't hold onto them, God...I mean Mary might not hear me! I hope she does now because she doesn't talk to me. Oh well. I certainly need her because without her, God's not big enough to hear me or show me His will.

Hmmm ...not too bad, Heidi!

More like pathetically ignorant. The rosary is primarily about Jesus as a matter of fact. We reflect on HIS life, death, and resurrection during the prayers. We ask Mary's prayers for us. This does not make her God as she can do NOTHING for us but obtain the grace of her son who died on the cross. Pray to beads? This wreaks of biggotry. Excuse me if my post is harsh but you bear false witness. It's in the bible. Look it up.

People on this board continue to display gross ignorance of Catholicism. But when a Catholic corrects them they continue to parrot the same old wives tales and distortions. It's really getting sad on this board.

 

[SputnikBoy]

I have to go now because there are other people to whom I have to pray. I might possibly have time to pray to God, but with all these people I praise, God might get some of my time. I even bought some beads that I have to hold while I pray to Mary. Sometimes I even pray to these beads! Afterall, if i don't hold onto them, God...I mean Mary might not hear me! I hope she does now because she doesn't talk to me. Oh well. I certainly need her because without her, God's not big enough to hear me or show me His will.

Hmmm ...not too bad, Heidi!

More like pathetically ignorant. The rosary is primarily about Jesus as a matter of fact. We reflect on HIS life, death, and resurrection during the prayers. We ask Mary's prayers for us. This does not make her God as she can do NOTHING for us but obtain the grace of her son who died on the cross. Pray to beads? This wreaks of biggotry. Excuse me if my post is harsh but you bear false witness. It's in the bible. Look it up.

People on this board continue to display gross ignorance of Catholicism. But when a Catholic corrects them they continue to parrot the same old wives tales and distortions. It's really getting sad on this board.


As someone who is affiliated with the SDA Church (which is also regularly targetted by people on this board) I do emphathize with your frustration, Thess. That is, in regard to what YOU believe is being misconstrued by others. When I equate SDA doctrines with the scriptures I find them to be mostly (perhaps not 100%) consistent. And yet, others on this forum shoot their arrows at the SDA Church on a regular basis and call us nasty names. :smt010 It makes little sense to me.

Anyway, while I may or may not agree with some of the practices of catholicism, I - again - DO feel your frustration.

 

[thessalonian]

By the way, Heidi and Sput, if you think us Catholics are pagans in need of salvation, Paul says "imitate me as I imitate Christ". Now I look through his writings and I don't see anywhere in the NT that Paul jests and mocks pagans. In fact in Athens in Acts 17 he uses what they believe to teach them about Christ. No mocking and belittling. And I certainly don't take your posts as a joke Heidi if that is what you claim. You won't fool anyone with that one.

 

[TruthHunter]

Ok General question, maybe off topic, but at least I see the link as vague as it might be. I often hear non-Catholics claim that the Catholic Church did not exist until around 1052-1152 depending on the source, and I'm sure people even disagree with that. Anyway, I am for the purposes of this question going to assume that they are right the Catholic Church did not get created until at least sometime during or after the 11th century. If this is true then that means that the Early Ecumenical councils which set the canon were a cross section of all Christian believers, so when they adopted the Canon, most people recognize as the Catholic Bible, then why is it OK, to change that canon, and then divide ourselves further by creating denominations. If Christ is the Truth, and there is only one truth, then how can there be ligitamate denominations which disagree on basic issues, like is Baptism necessary for salvation. Sola Fide, Is it OK to have music in Worship, what about a Choir. These things divide us why is that OK?

Peace,
Ben