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Why don't catholics carry statues of Paul?

Hey guys,

Let me apologize to the folks that I may have offended with my previous remarks.

OC, I feel I owe you an individual apology for the 'expert' comment. It was fecetious and out of line. Sorry.

And for everyone else, sorry that I got caught up in-between two seperate posts and let this interfere with 'this' post.
 
Klee shay said:
Christ is God, so yes

Christ is Christ and God is God; unified they are one. Why is it written then that Christ ascended to the right-hand side of God? If he was God then why wasn't it written that he ascended as God?

If we don't go through Jesus - seeking his will and instruction then we can foget reaching the Father, for the new covernant is between Jesus and God not mankind and God.

When, Jesus says to baptize in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit, who is the son if not Jesus? Jesus is God. The covenant IS between God, and Man, just as Abraham's Covenant was between God and Man. Yes Jesus was the sacrifice which made the covenant, and he himself MADE the covenant, but to say the covenant was between God, and God doesn't make sense.
 
Yes Jesus was the sacrifice which made the covenant, and he himself MADE the covenant, but to say the covenant was between God, and God doesn't make sense.

When Jesus "cried with a loud voice, saying, Eloi, Eloi, la-ma s-bach'~thani? which is being interpreted, My God, my God, why hast thou frosaken me?" Mark 15:34 was he speaking with knowledge of being God at the time?

And did God turn away from God to block out the sun when Jesus bore the sins of the world upon his shoulders?

No, the new covernant was not between God and God - THE SACRIFICE OFFERING was between Jesus and God. This is when the new covernant took place - on the cross. Jesus being IN THE FLESH, died an innocent man to release the Holy Ghost that would forever after, endow mankind with salvation.

We have not ascended - not in the flesh at least. Hence, we must acknowledge Jesus as being the conduit between us and God. When we forget that vital link on the cross - thinking we can cut straight to God instead (because hey, he's one with Jesus now) we discredit the order that was written according to God's will. He asked us to honour his son and what he did on the cross - not to be idolised; but to be respected as our only means to salvation.

God gave us a chance to prove ourselves with the old covernant. We failed. The new covernant was his last ditch to save us all. He sent a man to die for other men and Jesus passed his test of endurance. Do you think we have earned the right to consider Jesus and God, one, at our level of understanding? They may be one now but we have yet to pass our test of endurance. Jesus is the perfect personal trainer. :wink:

God is way out of our league...except through Jesus who speaks on our behalf.
 
Klee shay said:
He sent a man to die for other men and Jesus passed his test of endurance. Do you think we have earned the right to consider Jesus and God, one, at our level of understanding? They may be one now but we have yet to pass our test of endurance. Jesus is the perfect personal trainer. :wink:

I do believe that the Father is Yahshua Messiah's God. However, I do not think he was just a man.

Psalm 49:7 None of them can by any means redeem his brother, nor give to God a ransom for him:
 
Psalm 49:7 None of them can by any means redeem his brother, nor give to God a ransom for him:

In this particular Psalm, who is "them". It says in the passage directly above.

Psalm 49:6 They that trust in their wealth, and boast themselves in the multitude of their riches.

Jesus was a man that did not do those things. He was a carpenter's Son and when his ministry began he took nothing but the clothes on his back and the shoes on his feet. The rest God provided.

He was still a man wrapped in a vessel of flesh though, otherwise the sacrifice meant nothing. Why did Jesus suffer on the cross - in agony as his vessel slowly died then? Was it real or just part of the show to convince us that God was sincere? The vessel which carried the Son of God was that which was needed to be sacrificed for the salvation of mankind.

Though he was wrapped in flesh, Jesus walked in righteousness for he only sort to do his Father's will and not his own.

I understand if you disagree...I'm just sharing what I believe to be true.
 
wavy said:
Klee shay said:
He sent a man to die for other men and Jesus passed his test of endurance. Do you think we have earned the right to consider Jesus and God, one, at our level of understanding? They may be one now but we have yet to pass our test of endurance. Jesus is the perfect personal trainer. :wink:

I do believe that the Father is Yahshua Messiah's God. However, I do not think he was just a man.

Psalm 49:7 None of them can by any means redeem his brother, nor give to God a ransom for him:
Do you believe that Jesus is almighty God, Father God?
 
Solo said:
wavy said:
Klee shay said:
He sent a man to die for other men and Jesus passed his test of endurance. Do you think we have earned the right to consider Jesus and God, one, at our level of understanding? They may be one now but we have yet to pass our test of endurance. Jesus is the perfect personal trainer. :wink:

I do believe that the Father is Yahshua Messiah's God. However, I do not think he was just a man.

Psalm 49:7 None of them can by any means redeem his brother, nor give to God a ransom for him:
Do you believe that Jesus is almighty God, Father God?

Jesus claims to be the Son of God filled with His Father's Spirit. He said; "For the Father is greater than I." He also said; "I and the Father are one." So the only interpretation that does not contradict either of those passages is that Jesus is the Son of God filled with His Father's Spirit. Therefore as he said, once we've seen Jesus, we've also seen the Father because Jesus is the manifestation of God in the flesh whereas God Himself is Spirit.

Jesus also said; "Np one knows the hour. Not the angels in heaven nor the Son, but only the Father." Jesus is again making it clear that His Father is greater than He is and that he was was sent from his Father to do his Father's will. Therefore, there are 3 manifestations of God: God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Spirit. Those 3 aspects are separate and distinct manifrestations of God. The Father is supreme, the Son is the way to the Father and the Holy Spirit is our Counselor. Once we know the HS, we then know all 3. :)
 
Heidi said:
Solo said:
wavy said:
Klee shay said:
He sent a man to die for other men and Jesus passed his test of endurance. Do you think we have earned the right to consider Jesus and God, one, at our level of understanding? They may be one now but we have yet to pass our test of endurance. Jesus is the perfect personal trainer. :wink:

I do believe that the Father is Yahshua Messiah's God. However, I do not think he was just a man.

Psalm 49:7 None of them can by any means redeem his brother, nor give to God a ransom for him:
Do you believe that Jesus is almighty God, Father God?

Jesus claims to be the Son of God filled with His Father's Spirit. He said; "For the Father is greater than I." He also said; "I and the Father are one." So the only interpretation that does not contradict either of those passages is that Jesus is the Son of God filled with His Father's Spirit. Therefore as he said, once we've seen Jesus, we've also seen the Father because Jesus is the manifestation of God in the flesh whereas God Himself is Spirit.

Jesus also said; "Np one knows the hour. Not the angels in heaven nor the Son, but only the Father." Jesus is again making it clear that His Father is greater than He is and that he was was sent from his Father to do his Father's will. Therefore, there are 3 manifestations of God: God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Spirit. Those 3 aspects are separate and distinct manifrestations of God. The Father is supreme, the Son is the way to the Father and the Holy Spirit is our Counselor. Once we know the HS, we then know all 3. :)

Jesus is God, Jesus is Almighty God, Jesus is God the Father.

For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace. Isaiah 9:6


5 I am the LORD, and there is none else, there is no God beside me: I girded thee, though thou hast not known me: 6 That they may know from the rising of the sun, and from the west, that there is none beside me. I am the LORD, and there is none else. 7 I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things. 8 Drop down, ye heavens, from above, and let the skies pour down righteousness: let the earth open, and let them bring forth salvation, and let righteousness spring up together; I the LORD have created it. 9 Woe unto him that striveth with his Maker! Let the potsherd strive with the potsherds of the earth. Shall the clay say to him that fashioneth it, What makest thou? or thy work, He hath no hands? 10 Woe unto him that saith unto his father, What begettest thou? or to the woman, What hast thou brought forth?

11 Thus saith the LORD, the Holy One of Israel, and his Maker, Ask me of things to come concerning my sons, and concerning the work of my hands command ye me. 12 I have made the earth, and created man upon it: I, even my hands, have stretched out the heavens, and all their host have I commanded. 13 I have raised him up in righteousness, and I will direct all his ways: he shall build my city, and he shall let go my captives, not for price nor reward, saith the LORD of hosts. 14 Thus saith the LORD, The labour of Egypt, and merchandise of Ethiopia and of the Sabeans, men of stature, shall come over unto thee, and they shall be thine: they shall come after thee; in chains they shall come over, and they shall fall down unto thee, they shall make supplication unto thee, saying, Surely God is in thee; and there is none else, there is no God. 15 Verily thou art a God that hidest thyself, O God of Israel, the Saviour. 16 They shall be ashamed, and also confounded, all of them: they shall go to confusion together that are makers of idols. 17 But Israel shall be saved in the LORD with an everlasting salvation: ye shall not be ashamed nor confounded world without end. 18 For thus saith the LORD that created the heavens; God himself that formed the earth and made it; he hath established it, he created it not in vain, he formed it to be inhabited: I am the LORD; and there is none else. 19 I have not spoken in secret, in a dark place of the earth: I said not unto the seed of Jacob, Seek ye me in vain: I the LORD speak righteousness, I declare things that are right.

20 Assemble yourselves and come; draw near together, ye that are escaped of the nations: they have no knowledge that set up the wood of their graven image, and pray unto a god that cannot save. 21 Tell ye, and bring them near; yea, let them take counsel together: who hath declared this from ancient time? who hath told it from that time? have not I the LORD? and there is no God else beside me; a just God and a Saviour; there is none beside me. 22 Look unto me, and be ye saved, all the ends of the earth: for I am God, and there is none else. 23 I have sworn by myself, the word is gone out of my mouth in righteousness, and shall not return, That unto me every knee shall bow, every tongue shall swear. 24 Surely, shall one say, in the LORD have I righteousness and strength: even to him shall men come; and all that are incensed against him shall be ashamed. 25 In the LORD shall all the seed of Israel be justified, and shall glory. Isaiah 45:11-25
 
Heidi said:
Solo said:
wavy said:
Klee shay said:
He sent a man to die for other men and Jesus passed his test of endurance. Do you think we have earned the right to consider Jesus and God, one, at our level of understanding? They may be one now but we have yet to pass our test of endurance. Jesus is the perfect personal trainer. :wink:

I do believe that the Father is Yahshua Messiah's God. However, I do not think he was just a man.

Psalm 49:7 None of them can by any means redeem his brother, nor give to God a ransom for him:
Do you believe that Jesus is almighty God, Father God?

Jesus claims to be the Son of God filled with His Father's Spirit. He said; "For the Father is greater than I." He also said; "I and the Father are one." So the only interpretation that does not contradict either of those passages is that Jesus is the Son of God filled with His Father's Spirit. Therefore as he said, once we've seen Jesus, we've also seen the Father because Jesus is the manifestation of God in the flesh whereas God Himself is Spirit.

Jesus also said; "Np one knows the hour. Not the angels in heaven nor the Son, but only the Father." Jesus is again making it clear that His Father is greater than He is and that he was was sent from his Father to do his Father's will. Therefore, there are 3 manifestations of God: God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Spirit. Those 3 aspects are separate and distinct manifrestations of God. The Father is supreme, the Son is the way to the Father and the Holy Spirit is our Counselor. Once we know the HS, we then know all 3. :)
I am very uncomfortable with that particular rendering of who God is. This is why it is best to stay within the Nicene, Constantinopolitan, and Chalcedonian description of God, and avoid personal interpretations.

"Three manifestations"= Modalism
John said it quite adequately: Christ is the Logos, the Word of God.
 
Orthodox Christian said:
Heidi said:
Solo said:
wavy said:
[quote="Klee shay":3bc7c]He sent a man to die for other men and Jesus passed his test of endurance. Do you think we have earned the right to consider Jesus and God, one, at our level of understanding? They may be one now but we have yet to pass our test of endurance. Jesus is the perfect personal trainer. :wink:

I do believe that the Father is Yahshua Messiah's God. However, I do not think he was just a man.

Psalm 49:7 None of them can by any means redeem his brother, nor give to God a ransom for him:
Do you believe that Jesus is almighty God, Father God?

Jesus claims to be the Son of God filled with His Father's Spirit. He said; "For the Father is greater than I." He also said; "I and the Father are one." So the only interpretation that does not contradict either of those passages is that Jesus is the Son of God filled with His Father's Spirit. Therefore as he said, once we've seen Jesus, we've also seen the Father because Jesus is the manifestation of God in the flesh whereas God Himself is Spirit.

Jesus also said; "Np one knows the hour. Not the angels in heaven nor the Son, but only the Father." Jesus is again making it clear that His Father is greater than He is and that he was was sent from his Father to do his Father's will. Therefore, there are 3 manifestations of God: God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Spirit. Those 3 aspects are separate and distinct manifrestations of God. The Father is supreme, the Son is the way to the Father and the Holy Spirit is our Counselor. Once we know the HS, we then know all 3. :)
I am very uncomfortable with that particular rendering of who God is. This is why it is best to stay within the Nicene, Constantinopolitan, and Chalcedonian description of God, and avoid personal interpretations.

"Three manifestations"= Modalism
John said it quite adequately: Christ is the Logos, the Word of God.[/quote:3bc7c]

Then you are uncomforatble with the bible because my scriptures come from the bible. So which biblical quote in my post do you not believe? :o
 
Heidi said:
Orthodox Christian said:
Heidi said:
Solo said:
wavy said:
[quote="Klee shay":92b17]He sent a man to die for other men and Jesus passed his test of endurance. Do you think we have earned the right to consider Jesus and God, one, at our level of understanding? They may be one now but we have yet to pass our test of endurance. Jesus is the perfect personal trainer. :wink:

I do believe that the Father is Yahshua Messiah's God. However, I do not think he was just a man.

Psalm 49:7 None of them can by any means redeem his brother, nor give to God a ransom for him:
Do you believe that Jesus is almighty God, Father God?

Jesus claims to be the Son of God filled with His Father's Spirit. He said; "For the Father is greater than I." He also said; "I and the Father are one." So the only interpretation that does not contradict either of those passages is that Jesus is the Son of God filled with His Father's Spirit. Therefore as he said, once we've seen Jesus, we've also seen the Father because Jesus is the manifestation of God in the flesh whereas God Himself is Spirit.

Jesus also said; "Np one knows the hour. Not the angels in heaven nor the Son, but only the Father." Jesus is again making it clear that His Father is greater than He is and that he was was sent from his Father to do his Father's will. Therefore, there are 3 manifestations of God: God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Spirit. Those 3 aspects are separate and distinct manifrestations of God. The Father is supreme, the Son is the way to the Father and the Holy Spirit is our Counselor. Once we know the HS, we then know all 3. :)
I am very uncomfortable with that particular rendering of who God is. This is why it is best to stay within the Nicene, Constantinopolitan, and Chalcedonian description of God, and avoid personal interpretations.

"Three manifestations"= Modalism
John said it quite adequately: Christ is the Logos, the Word of God.

Then you are uncomforatble with the bible because my scriptures come from the bible. So which biblical quote in my post do you not believe? :o[/quote:92b17]
I'm not uncomfortable with the bible, I'm uncomfortable with the way you add words and delete to suit your agenda. Find for me the term "three manifestations" or anything that even remotely approximates this modalistic, heretical rubbish.

Manifestation is a term which specifically means
"a visible representation of something abstract"

"No one has seen the Father, except the Son..."
 
Orthodox Christian said:
Heidi said:
[quote="Orthodox Christian":14c68]
Heidi said:
Solo said:
wavy said:
[quote="Klee shay":14c68]He sent a man to die for other men and Jesus passed his test of endurance. Do you think we have earned the right to consider Jesus and God, one, at our level of understanding? They may be one now but we have yet to pass our test of endurance. Jesus is the perfect personal trainer. :wink:

I do believe that the Father is Yahshua Messiah's God. However, I do not think he was just a man.

Psalm 49:7 None of them can by any means redeem his brother, nor give to God a ransom for him:
Do you believe that Jesus is almighty God, Father God?

Jesus claims to be the Son of God filled with His Father's Spirit. He said; "For the Father is greater than I." He also said; "I and the Father are one." So the only interpretation that does not contradict either of those passages is that Jesus is the Son of God filled with His Father's Spirit. Therefore as he said, once we've seen Jesus, we've also seen the Father because Jesus is the manifestation of God in the flesh whereas God Himself is Spirit.

Jesus also said; "Np one knows the hour. Not the angels in heaven nor the Son, but only the Father." Jesus is again making it clear that His Father is greater than He is and that he was was sent from his Father to do his Father's will. Therefore, there are 3 manifestations of God: God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Spirit. Those 3 aspects are separate and distinct manifrestations of God. The Father is supreme, the Son is the way to the Father and the Holy Spirit is our Counselor. Once we know the HS, we then know all 3. :)
I am very uncomfortable with that particular rendering of who God is. This is why it is best to stay within the Nicene, Constantinopolitan, and Chalcedonian description of God, and avoid personal interpretations.

"Three manifestations"= Modalism
John said it quite adequately: Christ is the Logos, the Word of God.

Then you are uncomforatble with the bible because my scriptures come from the bible. So which biblical quote in my post do you not believe? :o[/quote:14c68]
I'm not uncomfortable with the bible, I'm uncomfortable with the way you add words and delete to suit your agenda. Find for me the term "three manifestations" or anything that even remotely approximates this modalistic, heretical rubbish.

Manifestation is a term which specifically means
"a visible representation of something abstract"

"No one has seen the Father, except the Son..."[/quote:14c68]

Sorry, but I have not added words to the quotes and you know it. That's simply another lie. Jesus said; "The Father is greater than I" and I believe him. You obviously do not. You might start by reading the bible instead of man-made doctrines. Only then will you know what Jesus said and who he is and not until.

I explained explicity how to form an interpretation that doesn't contradict scripture. But as usual, your interpretations contradict scriptrue all over the place because you don't know the bible! But since you could care less if you contradict scripture, I don't consider your posts credible at all.
 
Sorry, but I have not added words to the quotes and you know it.

I pointed out the words you added: "three manifestations"
You have neglected to point out where these are inscripture
.

That's simply another lie. Jesus said; "The Father is greater than I" and I believe him. You obviously do not.

Actually, if Jesus is just another "manifestation" of God, he cannot be greater or lesser.

You might start by reading the bible instead of man-made doctrines. Only then will you know what Jesus said and who he is and not until.

This is a classic deflection. I asked you for proof of your assertions, and you attack my credibility, intent, and spirituality. I have contradicted your heretical rendering, and you have yet to do anything but bluster.

I explained explicity how to form an interpretation that doesn't contradict scripture.

I didn't ask for you to explain how to form an interpretation, I challenged your interpretation. Manifestaion is an unacceptable description of the three persons of God because it intimates that God the Father died on the cross- or at minimum, a manifestation of God the Father.

Ask your pastor to explain it to you.


But as usual, your interpretations contradict scriptrue all over the place because you don't know the bible! But since you could care less if you contradict scripture, I don't consider your posts credible at all.

Demonstrate where my interpretations contradict scripture- really, please feel free to do so.
 
Actually, if Jesus is just another "manifestation" of God, he cannot be greater or lesser.

Can I ask why? Scriptually speaking that is.
 
Klee shay said:
Actually, if Jesus is just another "manifestation" of God, he cannot be greater or lesser.

Can I ask why? Scriptually speaking that is.
Absolutely. Is ice greater than water? Each are a manifestation of H2O. A rainbow is a manifestation of refracted light- is the rainbow greater than the light? Only in the sense of its rare manifestation.

But Jesus is not a "manifestation" of the Father. Though He is of the same substance and essence as the Father, just like two flames that burn together when placed together, yet is He distinct from the Father. The Father is greater than the Son in that the Father is the source of all. The Holy Spirit, like the Son, proceeds from the Father.

The "manifestation" description of Christ is the Modalist description. This means, as you may know, that the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are simply different modes that the one God appears in. That is NOT Elohim.
 
Is ice greater than water? Each are a manifestation of H2O.

Bear with me but I disagree. I see both ice, water and H2O as being direct manifestations ordained by the hand of God.

A rainbow is a manifestation of refracted light- is the rainbow greater than the light? Only in the sense of its rare manifestation.

It is not a rare manifestation...it is a deliberate event by the hand of God.

But Jesus is not a "manifestation" of the Father.

Given that all life came from the Father and Jesus was born of the flesh, I'd say that was a manifestation of life from God.

Though He is of the same substance and essence as the Father, just like two flames that burn together when placed together, yet is He distinct from the Father. The Father is greater than the Son in that the Father is the source of all. The Holy Spirit, like the Son, proceeds from the Father.

Yes he is distinct; like my daughter is from me. That is the order God gave his Son so that mankind could understand the relationship between them. We still don't understand it, but that is as God wanted it. If the true nature of God could be easily understood, what hope would we possess that he really was greater than us?

The "manifestation" description of Christ is the Modalist description. This means, as you may know, that the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are simply different modes that the one God appears in. That is NOT Elohim.

Forgive my ignorance, but I don't know what Elohim is. You may have to explain it to me. I don't believe in the Modalist discription purely for the fact that God did not describe his Son or the Holy Spirit as being him. Jesus spoke of his unity with the Father and the Father with him, and he also spoke of the Comforter that would come to help the Apostles after he had ascended to heaven - but there was a deliberate distinction between individual entities; united as one.

If the life of Christ could not be credited to Christ, then we go back to idolising our relationship with God. That is not the direction the Father pointed us in. He pointed us to his Son; being someone distinct who died according to "His" (God's) will.

I'm not all together disagreeing with you, but I do believe that everything in this world (and Christ having lived in it) were manifestations from God. The abstract background was nothing; and it was God that brought life into the world. He gave life to Christ, the Holy Spirit and to mankind as well. We are not all God but having being created from him, part of his being lives on inside. I guess what I'm really trying to say is that life is a manifestation from God.
 
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