Why god?

[Novum]

Novum,

Have you read the whole Bible?

No, but I've read most of it. I've been meaning to finish my reading, though I have yet to find the time to do so. Rest assured it's on the agenda. ;)

I am sure you will be facinated by it :D

I certainly am, and never have I claimed otherwise. The mere thought of the enormous, immeasurable impact this book has had on the world - regardless of whether or not what it says is true - is fascinating indeed. A number of historians have attempted to study religion as a kind of social construct, just like music or dance. I think this is fascinating work that could potentially tell us a great deal about ourselves.

 

[gingercat]

Novum,

Please don't mix up the Bible with the other world novels.

 

[Novum]

Novum,

Please don't mix up the Bible with the other world novels.

Ah, but for the vast majority of the world's population, your bible is just another "world novel". ;)

 

[gingercat]

Novum,

Please don't mix up the Bible with the other world novels.

Ah, but for the vast majority of the world's population, your bible is just another "world novel". ;)

Novum,

God is using other Christians to lead you to Him. If you wait too long, He will give you something drastic that you have to ask for help and noone can help you.

When that happens, many of the non-believers still too stubborn to ask for God's help and stay in the same condition. I hope you will not be one of those.

sincerely, hitomi

 

[DivineNames]

Would you like to drink some poison as a demonstration of the truth of Christian faith?

Considering bwg believe in an eternal hell, I doudt he will think this is too good an idea. Your encouraging such things is rather sad. Do you truly take such matters as eternal destiny so lightly. Are you so sure that you are correct that you would encourage someone to take their life?

Very sad.

How am I encouraging someone to take their own life? Do you believe that the Bible is wrong?

I think it is worth saying that you misrepresented what I said. I didn't encourage anyone to take their own life, which would obviously be a highly irresponsible thing to do. I merely encouraged someone to take part in a potentially lethal experiment.

And as it happens, I wouldn't think that anyone would actually drink poison because of what I said. When it comes down to it, they probably realize as well as I do that what the Bible is saying isn't true.

 

[Drew]

When it comes down to it, they probably realize as well as I do that what the Bible is saying isn't true.

Or at least is not true in a specifically literal way. There could be truth in the statement "and if they drink any deadly thing, it will not hurt them" if it is taken metaphorically.

 

[ArtGuy]

When it comes down to it, they probably realize as well as I do that what the Bible is saying isn't true.

Or at least is not true in a specifically literal way. There could be truth in the statement "and if they drink any deadly thing, it will not hurt them" if it is taken metaphorically.

Perhaps in a "what doesn't kill you will only make you stronger" sort of way? Or as an allusion to ever-lasting life? "Drink some poison! You'll still have everlasting life in heaven, so no worries!"

 

[DivineNames]

So what do we Christians do? I think we need to accept that words such as these cannot be taken literally - the evidence of life strongly shows otherwise.

So if empirical evidence goes against what the Bible says, on a literal reading, the Bible must have been saying something else? That is an interesting approach to interpreting scripture, and one which will no doubt help to prevent falsification...

 

[Henry]

Funny how athiest think they have such great arguments, yet the more they talk the less they seem to know. Hmmmmm

 

[Drew]

So what do we Christians do? I think we need to accept that words such as these cannot be taken literally - the evidence of life strongly shows otherwise.

So if empirical evidence goes against what the Bible says, on a literal reading, the Bible must have been saying something else? That is an interesting approach to interpreting scripture, and one which will no doubt help to prevent falsification...

Methinks thou dost protest too much.

I am not in any way opposed to opening up the Scriptures to falsification. I have several times stated my belief that there are indeed errors in the Scriptures. I do not, for example, believe that God actually ordered the slaughter of entire peoples as the OT clearly says He did.

So, please do not try to paint me as someone who is trying to "rig the game" so that the Bible cannot be subject to falsification. I am doing nothing of the sort.

I am merely saying that when language is arguably metaphorical (as I think it is in the passage you have quoted) and the empirical evidence suggests that a literal reading is incorrect, it is not intellectually dishonest to posit that the text is still "God's inspired word" and yet must be taken metaphorically, if a reasonable metaphorical interpretation can be made.

While Christians do no need to test the Scriptures against reality, there is no a priori reason to demand that it must be done on a "literal reading". While the fundamentalists may be legitimage targets of the kind of critique that I see you making, all Christians should not be lumped together in this regard.

 

[Novum]

Funny how athiest think they have such great arguments, yet the more they talk the less they seem to know. Hmmmmm

Either state specifically which arguments you have issue with or kindly bow out of the thread. There was no namecalling or snide remarks in this thread until your post.

 

[Novum]

God is using other Christians to lead you to Him. If you wait too long, He will give you something drastic that you have to ask for help and noone can help you.

That's horrible. Why would your god intentionally cause something drastic to occur in my life that would not have occurred otherwise? How is that just at all, in any sense of the word?

 

[gingercat]

God is using other Christians to lead you to Him. If you wait too long, He will give you something drastic that you have to ask for help and noone can help you.

That's horrible. Why would your god intentionally cause something drastic to occur in my life that would not have occurred otherwise? How is that just at all, in any sense of the word?

Because we need Him. You just don't realize it. He is telling us through the Bible. Jesus was a real Person. He did all kinds of miracles. Who can perform miracle except through God?

 

[Novum]

God is using other Christians to lead you to Him. If you wait too long, He will give you something drastic that you have to ask for help and noone can help you.

That's horrible. Why would your god intentionally cause something drastic to occur in my life that would not have occurred otherwise? How is that just at all, in any sense of the word?

Because we need Him. You just don't realize it. He is telling us through the Bible. Jesus was a real Person. He did all kinds of miracles. Who can perform miracle except through God?

I understand what you're saying, but I don't think you answered my question. How is it justified for anyone, in any circumstance, to intentionally cause something "drastic"?

As an aside, I notice that we have not yet defined what you mean by "drastic", so I'll stop here until I have a better idea from you what you mean by the term.

 

[gingercat]

How is it justified for anyone, in any circumstance, to intentionally cause something "drastic"?

Novum,

This is just my understanding of God. I believe young people are protected by God from Satan's work. (God is allowing Satan to control this world.)

But if you keep resisting His invitation, He stops protecting you and lets you get the consequences.

 

[Novum]

ginger, I'm not talking about Satan. You said, very clearly, that god is the one who causes "drastic" events in people's lives that would not have otherwise occurred. I ask again: how is this justified or ethical?

 

[gingercat]

You said, very clearly, that god is the one who causes "drastic" events in people's lives that would not have otherwise occurred.

If I said God is the One who causes drastic events, I apologize. No, He allowses it. God is Just and Righteous and everything good. He never does anything wrong, period. If I say something otherwise, I am the one who is wrong. I have to make sure of this.

 

[Drew]

God is using other Christians to lead you to Him. If you wait too long, He will give you something drastic that you have to ask for help and noone can help you.

That's horrible. Why would your god intentionally cause something drastic to occur in my life that would not have occurred otherwise? How is that just at all, in any sense of the word?

Hi Novum:

I hope that gingercat does not mind if I take a shot at this. Knowing that you are an agnostic atheist, let me ask you, for the sake of argument, to imagine that a personal benevolent God does indeed exist and does actively "interact" with humans (in the domain of the human mind, for example). Now also imagine that human beings have a "free will" faculty that enables them to reject God's offer of a relationship with Him.

It might turn out to be the case that it is in someone's best long-term interests to "get a wake-up call" if they are not responding to God. He may have set up the universe in such a way that even He sometimes has no choice but to cause / allow "bad things" to happen to people to cause the person to seek God in the midst of their suffering. This may be what gingercat is saying - that it might actually be a loving act for God to cause some drastic, unhappy event for a person - because it is in that person's best long-term interests.

Now I suspect you will have a number of questions / objections such as:

1. If God is so powerful why does he create a world in which He cannot accomplish some of his purposes without causing / allowing human suffering - why can't it not be "all good"?

2. God does not, you would say, interact with you at all "in your mind" or anywhere else for that matter.

These. of course, are good questions which I do not have the time to touch on.

I think the bottom line is that, just like we make our children suffer through the pain and fear of getting needles at the doctor's, so God may do something similar to us - cause us to experience suffering for higher purposes that serve our best interests.

 

[Novum]

Hey Drew.

Now I suspect you will have a number of questions / objections such as:

1. If God is so powerful why does he create a world in which He cannot accomplish some of his purposes without causing / allowing human suffering - why can't it not be "all good"?

Yes, this would be my first objection - the problem of evil. The same issue that philosophers have been grappling with for the past three millennia. ;)

And, of course, there's the matter of the assumptions that are central to your argument, which themselves are among the great unresolved issues of philosophy as well.

I think the bottom line is that, just like we make our children suffer through the pain and fear of getting needles at the doctor's, so God may do something similar to us - cause us to experience suffering for higher purposes that serve our best interests.

Yet as you recognize, God is omnipotent - so he could easily give us our medicine without the pain or fear of a shot. ;)

 

[gingercat]

Yet as you recognize, God is omnipotent - so he could easily give us our medicine without the pain or fear of a shot. ;)

We will have pain free, suffering free life in second time with God. This first time life is trial for God's kingdom. If we trust Him we will get to live in paradise.