Why I cringe when people say it's all about choice.

[childeye]

Let me show you why I cringe when people say it is all about choice. Let's say God gave me great wisdom. And I gloried in that wisdom over others and gradually began to feel I was better than others, when in fact God had simply been gracious towards me. Such wisdom without a pure heart only puffed me up in blindness to a vanity. My moral judgment being askewed, I even despised those who were not as wise as me, and I chose actions that followed after the spirit of my disability. I became a selfrighteous hypocrit, for all my wisdom I became a fool.

So God is destroying such vanity that is based on this type of worldly wisdom that does not even esteem God, so that He alone is glorified. If you don't understand this, you cannot understand scripture. This teaching of freewill wherein men use it to reason that they are in control by their own sovereignty, and hence hand out credit and blame, and glory in themselves while giving lip service to God, is vanity.
　
1 Corinthians 1:20-31

King James Version (KJV)


20Where is the wise? where is the scribe? where is the disputer of this world? hath not God made foolish the wisdom of this world?
21For after that in the wisdom of God the world by wisdom knew not God, it pleased God by the foolishness of preaching to save them that believe.
22For the Jews require a sign, and the Greeks seek after wisdom:
23But we preach Christ crucified, unto the Jews a stumblingblock, and unto the Greeks foolishness;
24But unto them which are called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God, and the wisdom of God.
25Because the foolishness of God is wiser than men; and the weakness of God is stronger than men.
26For ye see your calling, brethren, how that not many wise men after the flesh, not many mighty, not many noble, are called:
27But God hath chosen the foolish things of the world to confound the wise; and God hath chosen the weak things of the world to confound the things which are mighty;
28And base things of the world, and things which are despised, hath God chosen, yea, and things which are not, to bring to nought things that are:
29That no flesh should glory in his presence.
30But of him are ye in Christ Jesus, who of God is made unto us wisdom, and righteousness, and sanctification, and redemption: 31That, according as it is written, He that glorieth, let him glory in the Lord.

 

[Elijah674]

Here is why I CRINGE!

Viewers, look around you today with the Holy Spirit being with/drawn from earth. Actually it is mankind passing the boundaries that God has placed upon them. Matt. 12:31-32 & Gen. 6:3 And they are cut loose to their own

evil desires! Gen. 4:7

And what now transpires is exactly what you are wittnessing.
Jude
[12] These are spots in your feasts of charity, when they feast with you, feeding themselves without fear: clouds they are without water, [[carried about of winds;]] trees whose fruit withereth, without fruit, twice dead, plucked up by the roots;
....
[16] These are murmurers, complainers, walking after their own lusts; and their mouth speaketh great swelling words, having men's persons in admiration because of advantage.

[17] But, beloved, remember ye the words which were spoken before of the apostles of our Lord Jesus Christ;
[18] How that they told you there should be mockers in the last time, who should walk after their own ungodly lusts.

And this is one 'sick' thread! Yet as you read & see daily on the world news, you surely can see mankind (and female/kind) having been turned over to satan with no conscience at all doing as he dictates.

It is well past time to even realize that the virgin ones of Matt. 25 were lacking oil of the Holy Spirit (Zech. 4:1-6) even though we see them having 'oil' in their lamps with their lamp.. 'are gone out'.. and vers 10's CLOSED DOOR!

--Elijah

 

[childeye]

Here is why I CRING!

That is funny.

And this is one 'sick' thread!

I think God's foolishness is funny too. We have to be able to laugh at ourselves.

Seriously though, Why do you think His foolishness is sick?

 

[Elijah674]

Here is why I CRINGE!

Viewers, look around you today with the Holy Spirit being with/drawn from earth. Actually it is mankind passing the boundaries that God has placed upon them. Matt. 12:31-32 & Gen. 6:3 And they are cut loose to their own

evil desires! Gen. 4:7

And what now transpires is exactly what you are wittnessing.
Jude
[12] These are spots in your feasts of charity, when they feast with you, feeding themselves without fear: clouds they are without water, [[carried about of winds;]] trees whose fruit withereth, without fruit, twice dead, plucked up by the roots;
....
[16] These are murmurers, complainers, walking after their own lusts; and their mouth speaketh great swelling words, having men's persons in admiration because of advantage.

[17] But, beloved, remember ye the words which were spoken before of the apostles of our Lord Jesus Christ;
[18] How that they told you there should be mockers in the last time, who should walk after their own ungodly lusts.

And this is one 'sick' thread! Yet as you read & see daily on the world news, you surely can see mankind (and female/kind) having been turned over to satan with no conscience at all doing as he dictates.

It is well past time to even realize that the virgin ones of Matt. 25 were lacking oil of the Holy Spirit (Zech. 4:1-6) even though we see them having 'oil' in their lamps with their lamp.. 'are gone out'.. and vers 10's CLOSED DOOR!

--Elijah

Elijah here:
For any to teach that the Godhead created robots that are brain dead, (that can't think but are programed) and allowing all the sufferings on heaven & earth, + the death of Jesus Christ, [[that has these 'robot' ones teaching's thread.. sick!]]

 

[Danus]

Elijah here:
For any to teach that the Godhead created robots that are brain dead, (that can't think but are programed) and allowing all the sufferings on heaven & earth, + the death of Jesus Christ, [[that has these 'robot' ones teaching's thread.. sick!]]


I've never known anyone to teach this, but I've known of some teachings to be misinterpreted like this.

To me, mankind is limited in his choice to his own will, but he often thinks there are alternatives to the choices he's made when in fact there aren't.

We often play around with the idea of choice in saying "Could have, should have, might have"....but none of these are viable. They don't exist, but in the imagination, and still limited by ones own will.

 

[Former Christian]

Childeye etc.

God didn't created androids. He created men (and women). The first ones chose to disobey God. One was deceived and one was not. Made no difference whatsoever. They both died. Which God promised would happen if they made that choice. And mankind has been dying and making choices since then. They make choices according to the light they have. As the saying goes, ignorance of the Law is no excuse. Punishment is still the same. Death. Instead of complaining and whining, and thinking God is unjust because of this or that mankind is too stupid to make their own choices, why not just praise God that he made a choice, choosing to offer mankind a way out of their own dilemma; a free gift they have to choose to accept in order to benefit from it?

FC

 

[childeye]

Elijah here:
For any to teach that the Godhead created robots that are brain dead, (that can't think but are programed) and allowing all the sufferings on heaven & earth, + the death of Jesus Christ, [[that has these 'robot' ones teaching's thread.. sick!]]

Come on Elijah, you don't seriously believe I think we are robots.
Boop- boop beep-beep, answer... please... answer...please...

 

[childeye]

Childeye etc.

God didn't created androids. He created men (and women). The first ones chose to disobey God. One was deceived and one was not. Made no difference whatsoever. They both died. Which God promised would happen if they made that choice. And mankind has been dying and making choices since then. They make choices according to the light they have. As the saying goes, ignorance of the Law is no excuse. Punishment is still the same. Death. Instead of complaining and whining, and thinking God is unjust because of this or that mankind is too stupid to make their own choices, why not just praise God that he made a choice, choosing to offer mankind a way out of their own dilemma; a free gift they have to choose to accept in order to benefit from it?

FC

Please FC, you can do better than this. You are describing a will not a freewill. How about some thoughtful commentary on the foolishness of God being greater than the wisdom of men?

 

[Former Christian]

Childeye

What's the sense? You think you are or were blind. You think everyone around you is blind just like you are or were. With a lot of common sense having been offered on the matter just since I've been here, you're still blind. You haven't changed your opinion one iota. Whether or not you're a Calvinist, you continue to think like one. That God is sovereign and man totally depraved. When nothing could be further from the truth. God has chosen to limit his sovereignty on our account. And man is far from totally depraved. If the bible actually taught such a thing as your idea, I would be an Atheist. Because I have been around and looked at the world long enough to see that your idea is completely against reality as it is.

I like the song Amazing Grace. And it is a beloved song no matter whether one believes in free will or not. Simply because it's praising God as its emphasis. Not because it's bemoaning whatever state a person thinks humanity is in.

When I look at humanity I see people trying their best to do the right thing, Christian or non-Christian. The few who cause all the trouble for the many, I see also. But you see humanity as blind and hypocrites. I take issue with that because I don't see the world through the same glasses you do.

Humanity is a race that is dying. Doesn't mean they've lost all their marbles. God has taken note, and has done something about it. Doesn't mean he chooses some to go to hell. Rather he has given the choice to humanity. God has chosen to limit himself on our account. Faith is from God, only after one receives the gift of salvation and then chooses to walk by the Spirit. Prior to that, faith itself is a choice. Whether or not to be convinced (what faith means) of what God has done and to accept the gift of eternal life.

What better can I offer you? Nothing. Because it has been your choice to view everything through dark glasses. As you have been doing since I've been here. And now you open yet another thread concerning free will and negative views. I leave you to those who see the world through the same dark glasses you do. Don't know why I responded in the first place. Maybe because I'm sick of it and cringe every time someone maligns God and man in this way.

FC

 

[childeye]

Childeye

What's the sense? You think you are or were blind. You think everyone around you is blind just like you are or were. With a lot of common sense having been offered on the matter just since I've been here, you're still blind. You haven't changed your opinion one iota. Whether or not you're a Calvinist, you continue to think like one. That God is sovereign and man totally depraved. When nothing could be further from the truth. God has chosen to limit his sovereignty on our account. And man is far from totally depraved. If the bible actually taught such a thing as your idea, I would be an Atheist. Because I have been around and looked at the world long enough to see that your idea is completely against reality as it is.

I like the song Amazing Grace. And it is a beloved song no matter whether one believes in free will or not. Simply because it's praising God as its emphasis. Not because it's bemoaning whatever state a person thinks humanity is in.

When I look at humanity I see people trying their best to do the right thing, Christian or non-Christian. The few who cause all the trouble for the many, I see also. But you see humanity as blind and hypocrites. I take issue with that because I don't see the world through the same glasses you do.

Humanity is a race that is dying. Doesn't mean they've lost all their marbles. God has taken note, and has done something about it. Doesn't mean he chooses some to go to hell. Rather he has given the choice to humanity. God has chosen to limit himself on our account. Faith is from God, only after one receives the gift of salvation and then chooses to walk by the Spirit. Prior to that, faith itself is a choice. Whether or not to be convinced (what faith means) of what God has done and to accept the gift of eternal life.

What better can I offer you? Nothing. Because it has been your choice to view everything through dark glasses. As you have been doing since I've been here. And now you open yet another thread concerning free will and negative views. I leave you to those who see the world through the same dark glasses you do. Don't know why I responded in the first place. Maybe because I'm sick of it and cringe every time someone maligns God and man in this way.

FC

Well, I asked and you answered. I appreciate that.

For the record I believe God wants all men to come to Him, but He is going to do it in His time so that men will know it was Him not them. By grace through faith so no man can boast. Hence He says I will have mercy upon whom I will have mercy. So that it is by grace through mercy. The caveat is that He may be destroying devils in the incarnated flesh of some men. For scripture says those who are not written in the book of life will take the mark of the beast and they also end up thrown into the Lake of fire. These are the only ones I know of that have to suffer the second death.

It is not my place to question the wisdom of God. If God only saved one man he is not unjust. But I know He is like the prodigal sons Father running to greet his returning son. He is Like the Christ willing to die for our sins. It's just that people don't know that. People hold a false image of god and it corrupts their thinking.

Some think He's testing to see who will come to them of their own freewill., but God does not tempt anyone. He is pure of heart. He made us and called us good. We're the ones that don't believe and have become distrustful even as we don't trust ourselves.

Granted, the prodigal son comes willingly after seeing his folly. But still He had to come to realize how he had wronged his Father in thinking he would do better outside his Father's house. Just like Adam, He had to learn that he had it pretty good in the garden. He had to lose what he had to see how good he had it.

This is the same vanity I am talking about on this thread. It's not God's fault that we took Him for granted. It's not anybodies fault except for man's ignorance of Holiness. But like the prodigal son, we didn't know what we had. We should have trusted God and never believed He was holding us back from being what we could be. We should have trusted that His love was ever true and has our best interests in mind. He reveals Himself through the light of the Christ and that is what draws all men to Him.

 

[JMJ]

My faith in God is my free will response to His grace. Without His grace, it would be impossible for me to have faith in Him.

Joshua 24:15 NKJV
And if it seems evil to you to serve the LORD, choose for yourselves this day whom you will serve, whether the gods which your fathers served that were on the other side of the River, or the gods of the Amorites, in whose land you dwell. But as for me and my house, we will serve the LORD.â€

Whether a person is an Israelite or a pagan, he may choose to serve God if this is his desire since God calls all people to believe in Him. His Son died as a ransom for all mankind, not just some persons.

1 Timothy 2:3-6 (NKJV)
3 For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior, 4 who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth. 5 For there is one God and one Mediator between God and men, the Man Christ Jesus, 6 who gave Himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time,

God gives every single person He creates the gift of a measure of faith and whatever the amount of faith He gives to any particular person, it is always enough faith for him to be saved if he chooses to follow in Jesus' footsteps in obedience to His Father's commandments until he dies.

Romans 12:3 NKJV
For I say, through the grace given to me, to everyone who is among you, not to think of himself more highly than he ought to think, but to think soberly, as God has dealt to each one a measure of faith.

 

[childeye]

My faith in God is my free will response to His grace. Without His grace, it would be impossible for me to have faith in Him.

Joshua 24:15 NKJV
And if it seems evil to you to serve the LORD, choose for yourselves this day whom you will serve, whether the gods which your fathers served that were on the other side of the River, or the gods of the Amorites, in whose land you dwell. But as for me and my house, we will serve the LORD.”

Whether a person is an Israelite or a pagan, he may choose to serve God if this is his desire since God calls all people to believe in Him. His Son died as a ransom for all mankind, not just some persons.

1 Timothy 2:3-6 (NKJV)
3 For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior, 4 who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth. 5 For there is one God and one Mediator between God and men, the Man Christ Jesus, 6 who gave Himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time,

God gives every single person He creates the gift of a measure of faith and whatever the amount of faith He gives to any particular person, it is always enough faith for him to be saved if he chooses to follow in Jesus' footsteps in obedience to His Father's commandments until he dies.

Romans 12:3 NKJV
For I say, through the grace given to me, to everyone who is among you, not to think of himself more highly than he ought to think, but to think soberly, as God has dealt to each one a measure of faith.

Thank you for your participation on this thread JMJ. Everytime the issue of man's power of choice comes up Joshua 24:15 is raised to support the idea of choice and a man's sovereign will.

However Joshua 24:15 does not show a sovereign will to choose to serve God and Joshua made this clear in 24:19 saying you cannot serve the Lord. And he was proven right since in Judges it is recorded that the people went back to serving idols wherefor God allowed their enemies to conquer them. Consequently despite their choice to serve God they did not serve God; even like Paul said he desired to do the law but could not find a way to accomplish that which he desired to do because of sin.

Whether a person is an Israelite or a pagan, he may choose to serve God if this is his desire since God calls all people to believe in Him. His Son died as a ransom for all mankind, not just some persons.

While I agree with your assessment that Jesus died as a ransom for all mankind (after all he has the keys to hell and death), the prior statement is not completely accurate in my view. How is it that scripture says God called the foolish things to put to nought the high things while you say He called all men? While it is true every knee shall one day bow, God calls and reveals according to His purpose which does not Glorify flesh but only Him. The Gospel of Christ is therefore foolishness to those who are not called by the Gospel according to 1 Corinthians 1:20-31. Hence Paul says here that it is because of God that you are in Christ and in Ephesians 2:8 he says it is not of yourselves.

Also, it has been my experience that this is true. For as a preacher of the Gospel, I have met those who cannot believe and adamantly deny the existence of sin ruling in them or that they need forgiveness. For they claim a freewill and believe they are good people and do not believe in devils and have no need of God. Years Later and after much prayer and persuading they come around to see the Truth of the Word and how what they once believed about having a freewill was said in blindness. I believe this is by God's direct intervention through the Holy Spirit.

 

[Danus]

Childeye........

Whether or not you're a Calvinist, you continue to think like one. That God is sovereign and man totally depraved. When nothing could be further from the truth. God has chosen to limit his sovereignty on our account. And man is far from totally depraved. .................................................................................................................
When I look at humanity I see people trying their best to do the right thing, Christian or non-Christian. The few who cause all the trouble for the many, I see also. But you see humanity as blind and hypocrites................................................................................................................
FC

FC, Total depravity does not mean that man is as bad as he could be. It only speaks to the fallen nature of man.

Any good in any man is held by God, not that man....That's the sovereign nature of God. God is in charge, only God is good. He can act, not act, or wait to act, but that's God's decision alone, not mans. In other words, God is not waiting for mankind to make him do something.

If you think humanity is trying to do the right thing, your kidding yourself. Humanity does not know what the right thing is without God, and "trying" does not = righteousness. Not even close.

Man does not get a grade for his attempt at righteousness; for his effort. Man's effort is the problem, because he thinks he's sovereign in some way. Only when he realizes he's not, is he in any condition to allow God, who is sovereign, to work in his life and be chosen.

If man is far from Totally depraved, then what is he? Close to righteous? Is he somewhat good? Kind of OK? What is it then? because none of that matters in as far as salvation goes.

Does the best man alive, the most moral, the most whatever good man alive today, does he need God less than the worst man? Well does he? The answer is NO; he needs God just as much as the worst man.

There, just gave you a free lesson on the "T" of Calvin. No give backs. You keep that, or put it on a shelf somewhere.

 

[JMJ]

Thank you for your participation on this thread JMJ. Everytime the issue of man's power of choice comes up Joshua 24:15 is raised to support the idea of choice and a man's sovereign will.

Thank you, also.

Only God's will is sovereign. A person's free will is a gift from God which must be exercised in line with God's sovereign will in order for him to be saved and for him to be approved to inherit eternal life after he dies. Sinning against God's commandments is not in line with God's sovereign will.

However Joshua 24:15 does not show a sovereign will to choose to serve God and Joshua made this clear in 24:19 saying you cannot serve the Lord. And he was proven right since in Judges it is recorded that the people went back to serving idols wherefor God allowed their enemies to conquer them. Consequently despite their choice to serve God they did not serve God; even like Paul said he desired to do the law but could not find a way to accomplish that which he desired to do because of sin.

Let's look at Joshua 24:15 in context. Joshua was warning the Israelites that if they do return to the Lord, they had better remain faithful to Him or else they would have severe consequences:

Joshua 24:14-28 NKJV
“Now fear the LORD and serve him with all faithfulness. Throw away the gods your ancestors worshiped beyond the Euphrates River and in Egypt, and serve the LORD. 15 But if serving the LORD seems undesirable to you, then choose for yourselves this day whom you will serve, whether the gods your ancestors served beyond the Euphrates, or the gods of the Amorites, in whose land you are living. But as for me and my household, we will serve the LORD.”

16 Then the people answered, “Far be it from us to forsake the LORD to serve other gods! 17 It was the LORD our God himself who brought us and our parents up out of Egypt, from that land of slavery, and performed those great signs before our eyes. He protected us on our entire journey and among all the nations through which we traveled. 18 And the LORD drove out before us all the nations, including the Amorites, who lived in the land. We too will serve the LORD, because he is our God.”

19 Joshua said to the people, “You are not able to serve the LORD. He is a holy God; he is a jealous God. He will not forgive your rebellion and your sins. 20 If you forsake the LORD and serve foreign gods, he will turn and bring disaster on you and make an end of you, after he has been good to you.”

21 But the people said to Joshua, “No! We will serve the LORD.”

22 Then Joshua said, “You are witnesses against yourselves that you have chosen to serve the LORD.”

“Yes, we are witnesses,” they replied.

23 “Now then,” said Joshua, “throw away the foreign gods that are among you and yield your hearts to the LORD, the God of Israel.”

24 And the people said to Joshua, “We will serve the LORD our God and obey him.”

25 On that day Joshua made a covenant for the people, and there at Shechem he reaffirmed for them decrees and laws. 26 And Joshua recorded these things in the Book of the Law of God. Then he took a large stone and set it up there under the oak near the holy place of the LORD.

27 “See!” he said to all the people. “This stone will be a witness against us. It has heard all the words the LORD has said to us. It will be a witness against you if you are untrue to your God.”

28 Then Joshua dismissed the people, each to their own inheritance.

Of course, Judges records that the Israelites did not remain faithful to the covenant that Joshua made for them with the Lord and so they suffered the consequences of their unfaithfulness which included being conquered by their enemies. God did not force the Israelites to sin against Him. They freely chose to be unfaithful to God when they disobeyed His commandments. They denied Him by their evil works.

While I agree with your assessment that Jesus died as a ransom for all mankind (after all he has the keys to hell and death), the prior statement is not completely accurate in my view. How is it that scripture says God called the foolish things to put to nought the high things while you say He called all men? While it is true every knee shall one day bow, God calls and reveals according to His purpose which does not Glorify flesh but only Him. The Gospel of Christ is therefore foolishness to those who are not called by the Gospel according to 1 Corinthians 1:20-31. Hence Paul says here that it is because of God that you are in Christ and in Ephesians 2:8 he says it is not of yourselves.

I believe that God calls all men/mankind to be saved because Scripture states that God desires for all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth. Since it is God's desire for all men to be saved, He makes it possible for all men to be saved. God cannot act contrarily to His desire that all men/mankind be saved by arbitrarily preventing some of them from being saved against their own free will. Free will to choose Him or not is His gift to mankind.

What is this foolishness that Paul is speaking of?

1 Corinthians 1:18 NKJV
For the message of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God.

The people who are not being saved believe that it is foolish to believe that God the Son came to earth to save all mankind by His death on the cross. They do not believe that Jesus is the Son of God and that He died for all mankind and that they can be saved if they believe in Him. Many of these unbelievers do not believe in hell or any type of afterlife. They do not believe that they need to be saved from anything.

However, the people who are being saved do believe that Jesus is God the Son and that He did come to earth to die so that they can be saved and be approved to enter into eternal life if they believe in Him and are faithful to Him by their works until they die.

The people who do have the Spirit of God living within them do understand that Jesus came to earth to save them. They are not foolish persons.

1 Corinthians 2:14
The person without the Spirit does not accept the things that come from the Spirit of God but considers them foolishness, and cannot understand them because they are discerned only through the Spirit.

Also, it has been my experience that this is true. For as a preacher of the Gospel, I have met those who cannot believe and adamantly deny the existence of sin ruling in them or that they need forgiveness. For they claim a freewill and believe they are good people and do not believe in devils and have no need of God. Years Later and after much prayer and persuading they come around to see the Truth of the Word and how what they once believed about having a freewill was said in blindness. I believe this is by God's direct intervention through the Holy Spirit.

I disagree. Every single person can be saved if he chooses to believe in God and to be faithful to His commandments until he dies. God provides every single person with enough grace to become saved and He also provides every single person with enough grace to remain saved until he dies and inherits eternal life.

1 Corinthians 1:26-31
Brothers and sisters, think of what you were when you were called. Not many of you were wise by human standards; not many were influential; not many were of noble birth. 27 But God chose the foolish things of the world to shame the wise; God chose the weak things of the world to shame the strong. 28 God chose the lowly things of this world and the despised things—and the things that are not—to nullify the things that are, 29 so that no one may boast before him. 30 It is because of him that you are in Christ Jesus, who has become for us wisdom from God—that is, our righteousness, holiness and redemption. 31 Therefore, as it is written: “Let the one who boasts boast in the Lord.

No one could have ever entered into eternal life if Jesus had not come to earth to make reparation for Adam's sin. It was Adam's sin which caused the gates of heaven to be locked against all mankind.

However, after a person is saved, he must cooperate with God's saving grace by following the lead of His Holy Spirit and he must do the righteous works that God has prepared for him to do if he wants to enter into eternal life after he dies. Once he has been saved, he must not be swayed by the enticing ways of the wicked and thereby fall away from the faith through his own wicked free will choices.

Acts 2:40 NIV
With many other words he warned them; and he pleaded with them, “Save yourselves from this corrupt generation.”

1 Timothy 6:20-21 (NIV)
20 Timothy, guard what has been entrusted to your care. Turn away from godless chatter and the opposing ideas of what is falsely called knowledge, 21 which some have professed and in so doing have departed from the faith.

These persons were saved at one time, but when they decided to believe things that were not true to the faith they were no longer saved. They left the faith because of their own foolishness and so they are no longer saved.

It is not "all about choice." Without Jesus' sacrifice, there could be no eternal life for anyone nor would there ever be eternal life for anyone. Jesus' sacrificial death on the cross made it possible for the gates of heaven to be opened so that the righteous persons could enter into the kingdom of heaven after they died. After He died, He did open the gates of heaven and all the people who were waiting patiently in Abraham's bosom were taken into heaven.

Ephesians 2:8 NKJV
For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God,

We know that God saved us through our faith in His Son and because of our belief, we became born again spiritually. What is one of the purposes we were saved for? Scripture informs us:

Ephesians 2:10 (NKJV)
10 For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand that we should walk in them.

What do you think happens to our salvation if we do not do the good works that God has prepared for us to do?

 

[Former Christian]

Danus

Total depravity does not mean that man is as bad as he could be.

Total “comprising the whole number or amount”

Depravity “moral corruption”

(Oxford Dictionary)

Unless the term is being used like the Catholic idea of praying to the Saints, meaning something else than what is obviously apparent.....

Any good in any man is held by God, not that man....That's the sovereign nature of God. God is in charge, only God is good. He can act, not act, or wait to act, but that's God's decision alone, not mans. In other words, God is not waiting for mankind to make him do something.
If you think humanity is trying to do the right thing, your kidding yourself. Humanity does not know what the right thing is without God, and "trying" does not = righteousness. Not even close.

Romans 2:14 (Indeed, when Gentiles, who do not have the law, do by nature things required by the law, they are a law for themselves, even though they do not have the law, (NIV)

Man does not get a grade for his attempt at righteousness; for his effort. Man's effort is the problem, because he thinks he's sovereign in some way. Only when he realizes he's not, is he in any condition to allow God, who is sovereign, to work in his life and be chosen.
If man is far from Totally depraved, then what is he? Close to righteous? Is he somewhat good? Kind of OK? What is it then? because none of that matters in as far as salvation goes.
Does the best man alive, the most moral, the most whatever good man alive today, does he need God less than the worst man? Well does he? The answer is NO; he needs God just as much as the worst man.

Man is NOT totally depraved. Just not good enough. Thanks to the fall. Man needs help to be good enough.

If man was totally depraved, then the best of man would be a gang banger at best. There would be no civilization as we know it. The so-called dark ages would be the best that we would see in man. And the difference between the Christians and the rest of humanity would be very very great. But it isn't, is it? Except in the eyes of some Christians who judges reality by their own interpretively derived standard.

If man is totally depraved, and God chooses who will be saved (and who will be lost as a reciprocal) instead of in Christ, then God didn’t express love. He expressed an unloving sovereignty. Like humanity is just toys to him.

If I believed the bible actually taught Calvinism, I would be an Atheist. For one reason alone. Reality isn’t like that. The bible would be an obvious lie, like Astrology.

There, just gave you a free lesson on the "T" of Calvin. No give backs. You keep that, or put it on a shelf somewhere.

??????????

FC

 

[HisSheep]

We do have a will, but it is certainly not free.

Our will is in bondage to Satan upon our birth.

It is not so that we are neutral, free-agents upon birth and might choose either good or bad. We are predisposed to choose evil with our wills.

We are born as slaves (doulos) of Satan and remain such until we become slaves (doulos) of Christ. Ephesians 2:1-2 confirms it.

Scripture also tells us that "God works in us to will" (Phil 2:13)

Here are a few verses that speak of the will of man and the will of God - specifically relating to salvation:

Of his own will begat he us with the word of truth, that we should be a kind of firstfruits of his creatures. (James 1:18)

Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God. (John 1:13)

For as the Father raiseth up the dead, and quickeneth them; even so the Son quickeneth whom he will. (John 5:21)

And ye will not come to me, that ye might have life. (John 5:40)

-HisSheep

 

[childeye]

=JMJ;626796]

I disagree. Every single person can be saved if he chooses to believe in God and to be faithful to His commandments until he dies. God provides every single person with enough grace to become saved and He also provides every single person with enough grace to remain saved until he dies and inherits eternal life.

The 'if' in your first line is the caveat. How much grace is enough to erase the if?
I don't see men freely choosing, but rather God sifting. He would choose the lowly ahead of the mighty to reveal His self to, so as to in the end all say all eliminate the posiibility of men thinking they chose Him.
1 Corinthians 2:14
King James Version (KJV)

14But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

So this scripture says this natural man cannot choose to receive spiritual things. Where is his freewill, for by default he says nay to God? If I say the Holy Spirit minsters to him until he is brought to a point of being able to say yeah, where does his freewill choice begin?

1 Corinthians 4:5
King James Version (KJV)

5Therefore judge nothing before the time, until the Lord come, who both will bring to light the hidden things of darkness, and will make manifest the counsels of the hearts: and then shall every man have praise of God.



I distinguish the difference between freewill and will. Will is the ability to choose and freewill are choices made without being coerced by any external factors.

Ephesians 2:10 (NKJV)
10 For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand that we should walk in them.

What do you think happens to our salvation if we do not do the good works that God has prepared for us to do?

I would say His workmanship in Christ Jesus was in vain. But I know that it is not. But of course your point is to emphasize that we can still follow the urges of the flesh and discipline is necessary to walk the straight and narrow. This however is a battle of flesh vs. Spirit, and does not exist upon the voluntary choice of men. To not stray from the path of love which includes mercy and understanding is to be a disciple of Christ. Moreover the topic of this thread is more focused on believing in Christ, whether it happens by freewill or by grace through faith.

I appreciated your post. You said many good things. I too believe a man can yet fail for whatever reason, but I don't think it is by his freewill choice. Most likely he began to trust in his own wisdom and forgot to trust in God. Ultimately I put no limits on the mercy of God to understand our predicament. I believe all men have faltered unto deserving death. If God does not fix what caused the fall, it is inevitable that it will only happen again. This is my main grief with freewill. For it seems to me if men are being told to be good because they can freely will to be, I don't see the point of the Gospel. I believe the only purity of Love must come by acknowledging that we can't be good by our freewill, so that when God makes us good we know it is not us. Any insight on that subject would be appreciated.

 

[childeye]

We do have a will, but it is certainly not free.

Our will is in bondage to Satan upon our birth.

It is not so that we are neutral, free-agents upon birth and might choose either good or bad. We are predisposed to choose evil with our wills.

We are born as slaves (doulos) of Satan and remain such until we become slaves (doulos) of Christ. Ephesians 2:1-2 confirms it.

Scripture also tells us that "God works in us to will" (Phil 2:13)

Here are a few verses that speak of the will of man and the will of God - specifically relating to salvation:

Of his own will begat he us with the word of truth, that we should be a kind of firstfruits of his creatures. (James 1:18)

Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God. (John 1:13)

For as the Father raiseth up the dead, and quickeneth them; even so the Son quickeneth whom he will. (John 5:21)

And ye will not come to me, that ye might have life. (John 5:40)

-HisSheep

Great scriptures His sheep. I too am persuaded that freewill is an illusion unless applied to being set free from lies. Still we are then slaves of truth. So why do you think God chooses the lowly and where did Satan get his vanity?

 

[Danus]

Danus



Total “comprising the whole number or amount”

Depravity “moral corruption”

(Oxford Dictionary)

Man is NOT totally depraved. Just not good enough. Thanks to the fall. Man needs help to be good enough.

If man was totally depraved, then the best of man would be a gang banger at best. There would be no civilization as we know it. The so-called dark ages would be the best that we would see in man. And the difference between the Christians and the rest of humanity would be very very great. But it isn't, is it? Except in the eyes of some Christians who judges reality by their own interpretively derived standard.

If man is totally depraved, and God chooses who will be saved (and who will be lost as a reciprocal) instead of in Christ, then God didn’t express love. He expressed an unloving sovereignty. Like humanity is just toys to him.

If I believed the bible actually taught Calvinism, I would be an Atheist. For one reason alone. Reality isn’t like that. The bible would be an obvious lie, like Astrology.



??????????

FC

Well, let's try something else to better explain what is meant by Total Depravity.

Your definitions from the dictionary are acceptable, but there is a concept missing that the dictionary can't help with.

I'm sure you would agree that some people are worse than others? or let's say more depraved than others.

However, when it comes to God's righteousness VS The best, most morally upstanding person, God's righteousness is 100%. The value of the most depraved man vs the least depraved man is exactly the same. Both need God just as much as the other. They are spiritually equal. Therefor man is totally depraved compared to God's righteousness. One man does not come any closer than any other. They are the same.

That's the missing concept that the dictionary will not allow you to have because it can't define that. That's what Calvin means with this term, Total Depravity.

This is not just a Calvin view. Calvin coined the term Total Depravity, but with this biblical concept in mind that even the best of man's efforts fall short of the glory of God. This is biblical.

 

[Elijah674]

The 'if' in your first line is the caveat. How much grace is enough to erase the if?
I don't see men freely choosing, but rather God sifting. He would choose the lowly ahead of the mighty to reveal His self to, so as to in the end all say all eliminate the posiibility of men thinking they chose Him.
1 Corinthians 2:14
King James Version (KJV)

14But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

So this scripture says this natural man cannot choose to receive spiritual things. Where is his freewill, for by default he says nay to God? If I say the Holy Spirit minsters to him until he is brought to a point of being able to say yeah, where does his freewill choice begin?

1 Corinthians 4:5
King James Version (KJV)

5Therefore judge nothing before the time, until the Lord come, who both will bring to light the hidden things of darkness, and will make manifest the counsels of the hearts: and then shall every man have praise of God.



I distinguish the difference between freewill and will. Will is the ability to choose and freewill are choices made without being coerced by any external factors.

I would say His workmanship in Christ Jesus was in vain. But I know that it is not. But of course your point is to emphasize that we can still follow the urges of the flesh and discipline is necessary to walk the straight and narrow. This however is a battle of flesh vs. Spirit, and does not exist upon the voluntary choice of men. To not stray from the path of love which includes mercy and understanding is to be a disciple of Christ. Moreover the topic of this thread is more focused on believing in Christ, whether it happens by freewill or by grace through faith.

I appreciated your post. You said many good things. I too believe a man can yet fail for whatever reason, but I don't think it is by his freewill choice. Most likely he began to trust in his own wisdom and forgot to trust in God. Ultimately I put no limits on the mercy of God to understand our predicament. I believe all men have faltered unto deserving death. If God does not fix what caused the fall, it is inevitable that it will only happen again. This is my main grief with freewill. For it seems to me if men are being told to be good because they can freely will to be, I don't see the point of the Gospel. I believe the only purity of Love must come by acknowledging that we can't be good by our freewill, so that when God makes us good we know it is not us. Any insight on that subject would be appreciated.

What kind of double talk is this???... ' This is my main grief with freewill. For it seems to me if men are being told to be good because they can freely will to be, I don't see the point of the Gospel. I believe the only purity of Love must come [by acknowledging] that we can't be good by our freewill, so that when God makes us good we know it is not us. Any insight on that subject would be appreciated.'

--Elijah