Why I cringe when people say it's all about choice.

[Danus]

We do have a will, but it is certainly not free.

Our will is in bondage to Satan upon our birth.

It is not so that we are neutral, free-agents upon birth and might choose either good or bad. We are predisposed to choose evil with our wills.

We are born as slaves (doulos) of Satan and remain such until we become slaves (doulos) of Christ. Ephesians 2:1-2 confirms it.

Scripture also tells us that "God works in us to will" (Phil 2:13)

Here are a few verses that speak of the will of man and the will of God - specifically relating to salvation:

Of his own will begat he us with the word of truth, that we should be a kind of firstfruits of his creatures. (James 1:18)

Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God. (John 1:13)

For as the Father raiseth up the dead, and quickeneth them; even so the Son quickeneth whom he will. (John 5:21)

And ye will not come to me, that ye might have life. (John 5:40)

-HisSheep

Great scriptures His sheep. I too am persuaded that freewill is an illusion unless applied to being set free from lies. Still we are then slaves of truth. So why do you think God chooses the lowly and where did Satan get his vanity?

Yes, I think that was very well worded.

Another way of conceptualizing this might be to say that man has free will within his own realm of fallen-ness so to speak.

I've heard it like this. Man is sort of in his own room. He can and will do what ever he will within the boundary of that space. he can play loud music, put posters up...whatever.

God opens the door to reveal a whole other room, but it's his room. To be in His room space man must leave his room to enter into the space God has opened, since no one can exist in two spaces at the same time.

So the rooms are like the will. Man's room, man's will. God's room God's will. You can be in God's room, but in doing so you are of and by God's will, and you have to leave your will/your room to do it.

Some choose to stay in their own room, but with the door open to God's room. They peak in and try to decorate their own room to be like God's room, and some just shut the door and stay in their own room; but true salvation is in leaving his room and living in God's room with God. Just a little mind analogy of the will and freeness of man

 

[childeye]

What kind of double talk is this???... ' This is my main grief with freewill. For it seems to me if men are being told to be good because they can freely will to be, I don't see the point of the Gospel. I believe the only purity of Love must come [by acknowledging] that we can't be good by our freewill, so that when God makes us good we know it is not us. Any insight on that subject would be appreciated.'

--Elijah

Hi Elijah 674. Thank you for commenting. I do not know what you mean by double talk here. Either we can be good by our own wills or not. If not, we are in need of a new spirit to be good inside. It seems to me that the idea a man has a freewill because he can both be faithful to God one second and then the next second be unfaithful by choice is doubletalk. What do you think?

 

[childeye]

Yes, I think that was very well worded.

Another way of conceptualizing this might be to say that man has free will within his own realm of fallen-ness so to speak.

I've heard it like this. Man is sort of in his own room. He can and will do what ever he will within the boundary of that space. he can play loud music, put posters up...whatever.

God opens the door to reveal a whole other room, but it's his room. To be in His room space man must leave his room to enter into the space God has opened, since no one can exist in two spaces at the same time.

So the rooms are like the will. Man's room, man's will. God's room God's will. You can be in God's room, but in doing so you are of and by God's will, and you have to leave your will/your room to do it.

Some choose to stay in their own room, but with the door open to God's room. They peak in and try to decorate their own room to be like God's room, and some just shut the door and stay in their own room; but true salvation is in leaving his room and living in God's room with God. Just a little mind analogy of the will and freeness of man

I've heard similar analogies. The way I see it when I read scripture, is that God gave us a spirit of life that is His own when he made mankind. We, taking that for granted as if it were ourselves that had wrought our spirits, became vain. God then gave us over to the will of the flesh which is the only other will in man apart from God. He did this to show that without God in us we would become abominations.

 

[Danus]

I've heard similar analogies. The way I see it when I read scripture, is that God gave us a spirit of life that is His own when he made mankind. We, taking that for granted as if it were ourselves that had wrought our spirits, became vain. God then gave us over to the will of the flesh which is the only other will in man apart from God. He did this to show that without God in us we would become abominations.

That's a more correct way of putting it.

 

[Elijah674]

Hi Elijah 674. Thank you for commenting. I do not know what you mean by double talk here. Either we can be good by our own wills or not. If not, we are in need of a new spirit to be good inside. It seems to me that the idea a man has a freewill because he can both be faithful to God one second and then the next second be unfaithful by choice is doubletalk. What do you think?

childeye

Re: Why I cringe when people say it's all about choice.

Originally Posted by Elijah674
What kind of double talk is this???... ' This is my main grief with freewill. For it seems to me if men are being told to be good because they can freely will to be, I don't see the point of the Gospel. I believe the only purity of Love must come [by acknowledging] that we can't be good by our freewill, so that when God makes us good we know it is not us. Any insight on that subject would be appreciated.'

--Elijah



Hi Elijah 674. Thank you for commenting. I do not know what you mean by double talk here. Either we can be good by our own wills or not. If not, we are in need of a new spirit to be good inside. It seems to me that the idea a man has a freewill because he can both be faithful to God one second and then the next second be unfaithful by choice is doubletalk. What do you think?
______
I know that any 'acknowledgement' is a free choice!:waving --Elijah
​

 

[childeye]

childeye

Re: Why I cringe when people say it's all about choice.

Originally Posted by Elijah674
What kind of double talk is this???... ' This is my main grief with freewill. For it seems to me if men are being told to be good because they can freely will to be, I don't see the point of the Gospel. I believe the only purity of Love must come [by acknowledging] that we can't be good by our freewill, so that when God makes us good we know it is not us. Any insight on that subject would be appreciated.'

--Elijah



Hi Elijah 674. Thank you for commenting. I do not know what you mean by double talk here. Either we can be good by our own wills or not. If not, we are in need of a new spirit to be good inside. It seems to me that the idea a man has a freewill because he can both be faithful to God one second and then the next second be unfaithful by choice is doubletalk. What do you think?
______
I know that any 'acknowledgement' is a free choice!:waving --Elijah
​

According to scripture the Holy Spirit convicts of sin. Do you acknowledge that the Spirit of Truth confronts you with it?

 

[Former Christian]

Danus

All verses are in the NIV unless otherwise noted.

Ephesians 2:
1 As for you, you were dead in your transgressions and sins,
2 in which you used to live when you followed the ways of this world and of the ruler of the kingdom of the air, the spirit who is now at work in those who are disobedient.
3 All of us also lived among them at one time, gratifying the cravings of our sinful nature and following its desires and thoughts. Like the rest, we were by nature objects of wrath.

The context is a letter to believers.

Ephesians 1:1 ....to the saints which are at Ephesus, and to the faithful in Christ Jesus

Paul continues,

Ephesians 2:
4 But because of his great love for us, God, who is rich in mercy,
5 made us alive with Christ even when we were dead in transgressions— it is by grace you have been saved.
6 And God raised us up with Christ and seated us with him in the heavenly realms in Christ Jesus,
7 in order that in the coming ages he might show the incomparable riches of his grace, expressed in his kindness to us in Christ Jesus.
8 For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith— and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God—
9 not by works, so that no one can boast.
10 For we are God’s workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.

What is Paul talking about here? Salvation in Christ, is it not? This is all true as far as our salvation is concerned. But does this make those concerned to have no free will? Do you agree with vs. 8 under the Protestant interpretation that the faith is our own, or do you realize that it couldn’t be our own human faith that is being spoken of here? Whose works are being spoken of in vs. 9, our own or someone else’s? Does vs. 10 refer to our own works or works of God of the one who is IN Christ?

Paul says this elsewhere, and I have to quote the KJV here because the NIV translates a Genitive phrase according to the Christian Tradition that one is justified by their own faith in Jesus Christ. It is irrelevant if it is claimed to be a God given faith, since it is the human who exercises it. The same hand that murders is a God given hand by creation. A Tradition that is more in keeping with the idea that man has free will in order for that faith to have any meaning. Yet it is that Tradition that is NOT what the bible says. Paul is referring to justification here, through which is salvation,

Romans 3: 19 Now we know that what things soever the law saith, it saith to them who are under the law: that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God.
20 Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin.
21 But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets;
22 Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference:
23 For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;
24 Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:
25 Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;
26 To declare, I say, at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus.

The faith of Christ (not faith in Christ, as modern translations translate it because of Christian Tradition) is the key to understanding justification in the view that I present. But also key is that justification is only effective for those who believe. And just as key is that all have sinned and come short of the glory of God (v.23). Not that mankind is totally depraved so that God had to choose those who would be saved. And just as key is that this justification is offered to all so that all might of their own free will choose to believe or not to believe. And just as key is that all who believe by their own free will are justified in Christ are being justified freely by the grace of god through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus. Etc.

Scripture also tells us that "God works in us to will" (Phil 2:13)

In context,

Philippians 2:
12 Therefore, my dear friends, as you have always obeyed— not only in my presence, but now much more in my absence— continue to work out your salvation with fear and trembling,
13 for it is God who works in you to will and to act according to his good purpose.

Obeyed? Work out?

James 1:18 He chose to give us birth through the word of truth, that we might be a kind of firstfruits of all he created.

I guess you didn’t catch that part about the “firstfruits of all he createdâ€

Or the context,

James 2:
13 When tempted, no one should say, "God is tempting me." For God cannot be tempted by evil, nor does he tempt anyone;
14 but each one is tempted when, by his own evil desire, he is dragged away and enticed.
15 Then, after desire has conceived, it gives birth to sin; and sin, when it is full-grown, gives birth to death.
16 Don’t be deceived, my dear brothers.
17 Every good and perfect gift is from above, coming down from the Father of the heavenly lights, who does not change like shifting shadows.

James 3:
19 My dear brothers, take note of this: Everyone should be quick to listen, slow to speak and slow to become angry,
20 for man’s anger does not bring about the righteous life that God desires.
21 Therefore, get rid of all moral filth and the evil that is so prevalent and humbly accept the word planted in you, which can save you.

A context where he is pointing out their free will to choose to take a specified path.

Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God. (John 1:13)

In context,

John 1:
9 The true light that gives light to every man was coming into the world.
10 He was in the world, and though the world was made through him, the world did not recognize him.
11 He came to that which was his own, but his own did not receive him.
12 Yet to all who received him, to those who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God—

A specific time and to a specific people whom God hardened,

John 12:40 He hath blinded their eyes, and hardened their heart; that they should not see with their eyes, nor understand with their heart, and be converted, and I should heal them.

Yet it is they who had hardened their own heart first by their not receiving him.

For as the Father raiseth up the dead, and quickeneth them; even so the Son quickeneth whom he will. (John 5:21)

In context,

John 5:
19 Jesus gave them this answer: "I tell you the truth, the Son can do nothing by himself; he can do only what he sees his Father doing, because whatever the Father does the Son also does.
20 For the Father loves the Son and shows him all he does. Yes, to your amazement he will show him even greater things than these.
21 For just as the Father raises the dead and gives them life, even so the Son gives life to whom he is pleased to give it.
22 Moreover, the Father judges no one, but has entrusted all judgment to the Son,
23 that all may honor the Son just as they honor the Father. He who does not honor the Son does not honor the Father, who sent him.
24 "I tell you the truth, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not be condemned; he has crossed over from death to life.Did you catch that he

Did you catch that he who hears and believes (actions of free will) has eternal life?

And ye will not come to me, that ye might have life. (John 5:40)

In context,

John 5:
39 You diligently study the Scriptures because you think that by them you possess eternal life. These are the Scriptures that testify about me,
40 yet you refuse to come to me to have life.

Study? Refuse to come? And not of their own free will?


I cringe when Christians quote bible passages according to their own interpretation out of context. Not only because it gives the wrong impression of what is being said by the bible writers, but especially because in this case it is blaming God and his Son or Satan for what is actually the responsibility of man. And it is the very thing that is most often shown in the caricatures of the believers in Christ as idiots in secular fictional accounts. For even they often know better what the bible says, then the Christians who know what it says only through the glasses of their own interpretations.

It is the Christian who interprets the bible according to their own understanding that are the blind ones. I can only say with Jesus Christ concerning them, "Father, forgive them, for they do not know what they are doing."

FC

 

[Former Christian]

Childeye

According to scripture the Holy Spirit convicts of sin. Do you acknowledge that the Spirit of Truth confronts you with it?

In context,

John 16:
7 But I tell you the truth: It is for your good that I am going away. Unless I go away, the Counselor will not come to you; but if I go, I will send him to you.
8 When he comes, he will convict the world of guilt in regard to sin and righteousness and judgment:
9 in regard to sin, because men do not believe in me;
10 in regard to righteousness, because I am going to the Father, where you can see me no longer;
11 and in regard to judgment, because the prince of this world now stands condemned.
12 "I have much more to say to you, more than you can now bear.
13 But when he, the Spirit of truth, comes, he will guide you into all truth. He will not speak on his own; he will speak only what he hears, and he will tell you what is yet to come.
14 He will bring glory to me by taking from what is mine and making it known to you.
15 All that belongs to the Father is mine. That is why I said the Spirit will take from what is mine and make it known to you.
(NIV)

How can you NOT realize that this proves that man has free will? The world knows through the conviction of the Holy Spirit. Those who believe of their own free will are the ones who will be in Christ. Those who believe not of their own free will are condemned because they are already condemned due to being in Adam.

FC

 

[Elijah674]

According to scripture the Holy Spirit convicts of sin. Do you acknowledge that the Spirit of Truth confronts you with it?

Do you acknowledge that some on here are brain dead robots?:robot
Created the the Image of God with a brain that is 'EMPTY'??

--Whatever! Titus 3:9-10 (enough is enough!)

 

[childeye]

Childeye



In context,

John 16:
7 But I tell you the truth: It is for your good that I am going away. Unless I go away, the Counselor will not come to you; but if I go, I will send him to you.
8 When he comes, he will convict the world of guilt in regard to sin and righteousness and judgment:
9 in regard to sin, because men do not believe in me;
10 in regard to righteousness, because I am going to the Father, where you can see me no longer;
11 and in regard to judgment, because the prince of this world now stands condemned.
12 "I have much more to say to you, more than you can now bear.
13 But when he, the Spirit of truth, comes, he will guide you into all truth. He will not speak on his own; he will speak only what he hears, and he will tell you what is yet to come.
14 He will bring glory to me by taking from what is mine and making it known to you.
15 All that belongs to the Father is mine. That is why I said the Spirit will take from what is mine and make it known to you.
(NIV)

How can you NOT realize that this proves that man has free will? The world knows through the conviction of the Holy Spirit. Those who believe of their own free will are the ones who will be in Christ. Those who believe not of their own free will are condemned because they are already condemned due to being in Adam.

FC

FC, thanks for your response once again. It is not my intention to bore you with the same old questions and answers. I sincerely desire your honest input as always. I do see what you are saying, and I would like to comment upon the scripture you provided.

I understand what you are saying, after all I was brought up believing I had a freewill. I held myself and everyone else completely resonsible for their actions and all my reasoning followed accordingly. I was absolutely sure a man's will was sovereign. But as I began to have the Holy Spirit correct me, I came to realize just how many times He instructed me contrary to what I would have done otherwise. These were not moments of choice for me, but clear differences in paths I would have not otherwise seen.

One small example, driving in my car and somebody would cut me off. I would get angry and start cursing the other driver. The Holy Spirit however would interrupt my tirade. He would bring to mind times when I myself was forced to cut in front of somebody due to my having to get in the proper lane so as to exit or make a turn or whatever. The Holy Spirit would remind me that that person was just trying to get along in this world just like me and it could not be helped that sometimes we step on others toes. A new spirit of empathy would wash over me as my error and hypocrisy was made clear to me. I would then bless that person on their way. I could have said no, but the Holy Spirit showed me I would be a slave to sin without Him. Consequently He would teach me to be thankful to God for sending Him and I would even beg Him never to leave me, seeing what I would become, because He showed me. It was therefore out of the question to say no since I was begging Him not to leave me.

I see no sovereign will in this scenario but only the Glory of God in His patient grace, dealing with a blind foolish pride. Anyway, the more I was corrected, sometimes many times over and over, the more I began to die and Jesus began to live in me. I came to see that my opposition to Christ was not even me, but Satan ruling in me. The clearer that became, the more control I was able to have over my will. And Satan who was at first on the inside began to be more and more on the outside, while Christ who was at first on the outside began to be more and more on the inside.

So the term freewill is relative. I would say I am now more free than I ever have been. When before the guidance of the Holy Spirit, I would have said I was completely free. That is why semantics are a problem. To what is the free being applied? I want you so much to relate to this. Unfortunately, if you have not had this experience, I would understand why you can't agree with it. Do you understand what I have said here?

 

[childeye]

Do you acknowledge that some on here are brain dead robots?:robot
Created the the Image of God with a brain that is 'EMPTY'??

--Whatever! Titus 3:9-10 (enough is enough!)

Elijah 674, rather than answer your question, I would respectfully ask that you please take the time to read post#30 on this thread. I really want your sincere comments. I take God very seriously and I know you do too. I want you to understand where I am coming from so you will stop thinking I am testifying that men are created without brains.

 

[HisSheep]

Why do free-willers love this “robot defense†for their theology?

We are not robots, but men. The bible tells us that God gets His way with men:

And all the inhabitants of the earth are reputed as nothing: and he doeth according to his will in the army of heaven, and among the inhabitants of the earth: and none can stay his hand, or say unto him, What doest thou? (Daniel 4:35)

Even the mighty will of man cannot stay God’s hand.

Try not to think of yourself as a robot, but a sheep. It is a much better analogy.

All the sheep will hear, believe and follow. Some will need more convincing than others, some may even need to be carried, but none will be lost.

-HisSheep

 

[Danus]

The context is a letter to believers.

Ephesians 1:1 ....to the saints which are at Ephesus, and to the faithful in Christ Jesus

Paul continues,

Ephesians 2:
4 But because of his great love for us, God, who is rich in mercy,
5 made us alive with Christ even when we were dead in transgressions— it is by grace you have been saved.
6 And God raised us up with Christ and seated us with him in the heavenly realms in Christ Jesus,
7 in order that in the coming ages he might show the incomparable riches of his grace, expressed in his kindness to us in Christ Jesus.
8 For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith— and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God—
9 not by works, so that no one can boast.
10 For we are God’s workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.

What is Paul talking about here? Salvation in Christ, is it not? This is all true as far as our salvation is concerned. But does this make those concerned to have no free will? Do you agree with vs. 8 under the Protestant interpretation that the faith is our own, or do you realize that it couldn’t be our own human faith that is being spoken of here? Whose works are being spoken of in vs. 9, our own or someone else’s? Does vs. 10 refer to our own works or works of God of the one who is IN Christ?

Well, we where discussing Total Depravity and I was attempting to give you a better understanding of what Calvin means in that term and how that relates conceptually to our condition as it is understood within the protestant reform theology.

Now your asking me to go down another path, regarding free will. I can do that, but I am not here to convince you of what I already understand, or change your mind in what you understand, although I've no problem challenging it.

So, Paul is speaking about salvation in Christ as of Christ and not of our own effort. That it what he's speaking. However, it is not the protestant understanding that faith is of our own, as you say. Faith is from God to man.

You lost me on your last part leading into 10. Again the protestant view is that we are works of God, faith is from God, our salvation is from god....all to us. This speaks to the sovereignty of God.

Paul says this elsewhere, and I have to quote the KJV here because the NIV translates a Genitive phrase according to the Christian Tradition that one is justified by their own faith in Jesus Christ. It is irrelevant if it is claimed to be a God given faith, since it is the human who exercises it. The same hand that murders is a God given hand by creation. A Tradition that is more in keeping with the idea that man has free will in order for that faith to have any meaning. Yet it is that Tradition that is NOT what the bible says. Paul is referring to justification here, through which is salvation,

Romans 3: 19 Now we know that what things soever the law saith, it saith to them who are under the law: that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God.
20 Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin.
21 But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets;
22 Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference:
23 For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;
24 Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:
25 Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;
26 To declare, I say, at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus.

The faith of Christ (not faith in Christ, as modern translations translate it because of Christian Tradition) is the key to understanding justification in the view that I present. But also key is that justification is only effective for those who believe. And just as key is that all have sinned and come short of the glory of God (v.23). Not that mankind is totally depraved so that God had to choose those who would be saved. And just as key is that this justification is offered to all so that all might of their own free will choose to believe or not to believe. And just as key is that all who believe by their own free will are justified in Christ are being justified freely by the grace of god through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus. Etc.



In context,

Philippians 2:
12 Therefore, my dear friends, as you have always obeyed— not only in my presence, but now much more in my absence— continue to work out your salvation with fear and trembling,
13 for it is God who works in you to will and to act according to his good purpose.

Obeyed? Work out?



I guess you didn’t catch that part about the “firstfruits of all he created”

Or the context,

James 2:
13 When tempted, no one should say, "God is tempting me." For God cannot be tempted by evil, nor does he tempt anyone;
14 but each one is tempted when, by his own evil desire, he is dragged away and enticed.
15 Then, after desire has conceived, it gives birth to sin; and sin, when it is full-grown, gives birth to death.
16 Don’t be deceived, my dear brothers.
17 Every good and perfect gift is from above, coming down from the Father of the heavenly lights, who does not change like shifting shadows.

James 3:
19 My dear brothers, take note of this: Everyone should be quick to listen, slow to speak and slow to become angry,
20 for man’s anger does not bring about the righteous life that God desires.
21 Therefore, get rid of all moral filth and the evil that is so prevalent and humbly accept the word planted in you, which can save you.

A context where he is pointing out their free will to choose to take a specified path.



In context,

John 1:
9 The true light that gives light to every man was coming into the world.
10 He was in the world, and though the world was made through him, the world did not recognize him.
11 He came to that which was his own, but his own did not receive him.
12 Yet to all who received him, to those who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God—

A specific time and to a specific people whom God hardened,

John 12:40 He hath blinded their eyes, and hardened their heart; that they should not see with their eyes, nor understand with their heart, and be converted, and I should heal them.

Yet it is they who had hardened their own heart first by their not receiving him.



In context,

John 5:
19 Jesus gave them this answer: "I tell you the truth, the Son can do nothing by himself; he can do only what he sees his Father doing, because whatever the Father does the Son also does.
20 For the Father loves the Son and shows him all he does. Yes, to your amazement he will show him even greater things than these.
21 For just as the Father raises the dead and gives them life, even so the Son gives life to whom he is pleased to give it.
22 Moreover, the Father judges no one, but has entrusted all judgment to the Son,
23 that all may honor the Son just as they honor the Father. He who does not honor the Son does not honor the Father, who sent him.
24 "I tell you the truth, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not be condemned; he has crossed over from death to life.Did you catch that he

Did you catch that he who hears and believes (actions of free will) has eternal life?



In context,

John 5:
39 You diligently study the Scriptures because you think that by them you possess eternal life. These are the Scriptures that testify about me,
40 yet you refuse to come to me to have life.

Study? Refuse to come? And not of their own free will?


I cringe when Christians quote bible passages according to their own interpretation out of context. Not only because it gives the wrong impression of what is being said by the bible writers, but especially because in this case it is blaming God and his Son or Satan for what is actually the responsibility of man. And it is the very thing that is most often shown in the caricatures of the believers in Christ as idiots in secular fictional accounts. For even they often know better what the bible says, then the Christians who know what it says only through the glasses of their own interpretations.

It is the Christian who interprets the bible according to their own understanding that are the blind ones. I can only say with Jesus Christ concerning them, "Father, forgive them, for they do not know what they are doing."

FC

You have a lot here that deserves some weeding out, but for the most part, your use of scripture is just fine, and I'd say you have a good grasp on context as well.

However, I'm not sure you have a good grasp on the different theologies as it relates to scripture.

What you think Calvin means, or what you express protestants think about these same verses. I'd suggest you study up a little more on those things.

One thing that is important to note when studying the bible, there is no one person who "get's it" and all others are blind idiots. The world has not been waiting for God to send you, or me or some else to interpret his word to all the morons.

Most of what is argued on this section is garbage in terms of essentials. It's mostly non essential to faith. Whether someone believes they muster their own faith or it's a gift of God, does not determine their salvation. But, there are other issues that clearly do.

So far I've not seen a framed argument here from you about how we are saved. This is more about concepts than anything else, and I think you have a pretty decent grasp of the essentials of faith.

Why you call yourself "Former Christian" I've no idea. You actually seem pretty Christian to me in your knowledge of the faith, but I'm still not sure about this last part of the post. Are you wanting to talk about free will and the views on that? That would be the theme of the thread.

I've laid down a few views already. The reformed view is what I subscribe to. That's the reformed protestant view. Some like to call it the "Calvin view", but I disagree. Calvin had nothing o do with developing it as a whole.

 

[JMJ]

The 'if' in your first line is the caveat. How much grace is enough to erase the if?
I don't see men freely choosing, but rather God sifting. He would choose the lowly ahead of the mighty to reveal His self to, so as to in the end all say all eliminate the posiibility of men thinking they chose Him.
1 Corinthians 2:14
King James Version (KJV)

God is Love. He loves all that He creates, especially the angels and mankind who are made in His image and likeness. He wants all persons to enjoy heaven with Him for eternity.

He loves all mankind and therefore He calls all mankind to be saved and inherit eternal life; in other words, He gives all of them the necessary grace to love Him in return so that they can live with Him in heaven forever. However, He forces no person to love Him in return. People can spurn His call/grace if they choose to. But, whoever truly loves Him until he dies will inherit eternal life. A person loves God by being obedient to His commands.

1 Corinthians 2:14 KJV But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

So this scripture says this natural man cannot choose to receive spiritual things. Where is his freewill, for by default he says nay to God? If I say the Holy Spirit minsters to him until he is brought to a point of being able to say yeah, where does his freewill choice begin?

An example of a natural man is a new-born baby. He needs food, clothing, shelter, and security from harm in order to be saved from physical death. A spiritual man is a person who has been born again by water and the Spirit. A spiritual man is a person who has been saved from spiritual death/condemnation and he also continues to be saved from spiritual death/condemnation by his obedience to God's commands.

God desires for all men/mankind to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth. To make this possible, He also sent His Son Jesus Christ to ransom all men/mankind.

The Scripture you quoted above states that the natural man does not receive the spiritual things of God. Also, that the natural man cannot know the spiritual things of God because they are spiritually discerned. Until the person is born again and obedient to God's commandments, he will not have any spiritual growth.

Continuing with Paul's letter:

1 Corinthians 3 NKJV
3 And I, brethren, could not speak to you as to spiritual people but as to carnal, as to babes in Christ. 2 I fed you with milk and not with solid food; for until now you were not able to receive it, and even now you are still not able; 3 for you are still carnal. For where there are envy, strife, and divisions among you, are you not carnal and behaving like mere men? 4 For when one says, “I am of Paul,†and another, “I am of Apollos,†are you not carnal?

Many born again people continue to act like carnal/natural men and so they do not progress in the spiritual life to perfection.

I distinguish the difference between freewill and will. Will is the ability to choose and freewill are choices made without being coerced by any external factors.

Good distinction.

Posted by JMJ
Ephesians 2:10 (NKJV)
10 For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand that we should walk in them.

What do you think happens to our salvation if we do not do the good works that God has prepared for us to do?

childeye: I would say His workmanship in Christ Jesus was in vain. But I know that it is not. But of course your point is to emphasize that we can still follow the urges of the flesh and discipline is necessary to walk the straight and narrow. This however is a battle of flesh vs. Spirit, and does not exist upon the voluntary choice of men. To not stray from the path of love which includes mercy and understanding is to be a disciple of Christ. Moreover the topic of this thread is more focused on believing in Christ, whether it happens by freewill or by grace through faith.

We exercise our free will when we freely choose to believe in Jesus Christ. God calls us and gives us the ability/grace that is necessary to be able to choose Him, but we must literally freely choose Him in order to become born again (unless our parents chose for us when we were children).

Free will and grace cooperate together and this cooperation results in faith in God.

I appreciated your post. You said many good things. I too believe a man can yet fail for whatever reason, but I don't think it is by his freewill choice. Most likely he began to trust in his own wisdom and forgot to trust in God. Ultimately I put no limits on the mercy of God to understand our predicament. I believe all men have faltered unto deserving death. If God does not fix what caused the fall, it is inevitable that it will only happen again. This is my main grief with freewill. For it seems to me if men are being told to be good because they can freely will to be, I don't see the point of the Gospel. I believe the only purity of Love must come by acknowledging that we can't be good by our freewill, so that when God makes us good we know it is not us. Any insight on that subject would be appreciated.

Thank you for your kind words.

No person can be good if he lacks God's grace. With God's grace, it is possible to be good. Faith working through love is what saves us.

James 2:22 (NKJV)
22 Do you see that faith was working together with his works, and by works faith was made perfect?

Titus 3:14 NKJV
And let our people also learn to maintain good works, to meet urgent needs, that they may not be unfruitful.

The people/believers can choose to do good works or not. It is their own free will choice. However, there is a consequence if the people do not do the good works that God has prepared for them to do. The consequence is that the unfruitful people will not inherit eternal life. They will be numbered among the condemned goats on Judgment Day. Those who do the good works assigned to them by God will be numbered among the righteous sheep on Judgment Day.

 

[childeye]

The people/believers can choose to do good works or not. It is their own free will choice. However, there is a consequence if the people do not do the good works that God has prepared for them to do. The consequence is that the unfruitful people will not inherit eternal life. They will be numbered among the condemned goats on Judgment Day. Those who do the good works assigned to them by God will be numbered among the righteous sheep on Judgment Day.

You contributed another good post to this thread JMJ along with appropriate scriptures. I especially liked 1 Corinthians 3:1-4. But still we are dancing around the central point. For while some are saying we must Love God others are saying God does not force anyone to Love Him. You have descibed a measure of the Love a man has for God by keeping His commandments. While it is true one who loves God, keeps His commandments, I would say to Love God is the consequence of knowing Him. The semantics of the word freewill is a hinderance in every discussion I have ever had about God. While I agree a man willingly Loves God and cannot Love God unwillingly, I would disagree that a man has the option not to love Him after knowing Him.

This may be difficult to understand but while God will not force a man to Love Him by beating a sense of reverance into the man, it also can be said that through the circumstances of where sin leads a man, God uses those circumstances to force a man to seek God in hope of escape from those circumstances. And upon being rescued, a thankful man also is forced to love God in acquiessence to His faithfulness and mercy. I would point out the scripture where Jesus asks the Pharisees, who loves the Master more, he who was forgiven much or he who was forgiven little?

In Light of the fact that sin is a slavery of the will subject to carnal impulse, the big picture seems to show that God uses sin and our own lies upon which sin manifests itself, to glorify Himself. It is therefore hard to say any of this happened by a man's freewill. More likely, God's will is being brought to pass by what we refer to as our freewill, but is actually just a will subject to Light and darkness bouncing off the boundries God has laid out to serve His ends. Hissheep posted a great scripture concerning this in post #32.

Pertaining to your primary issue represented by scriptures such as James 2:22 and Titus 3:14; It is clear you value the term freewill for the responsibility factor involved with making sure we walk in good works. Of course I am not going to say we need not do good works. Only that the motivator is Love not freewill responsibility. Faith is the mechanics through which Love works, but Love is the cause and purpose of faith. That is why Paul says, even if I have all faith so as to move mountains, yet do not have Love, I am nothing. All the good works without Love count as nothing but self glorification, not Godly glorification. That is why freewill is not the appropriate term to inspire good works. The will needs to be motivated by faith in the Eternal Spirit of Godly Love so that it is not our wills doing it, willing love to exist that is.

Please give thought to what I have shared regarding my thoughts on this, and ponder what my motives are on this thread. Am I trying to argue so that I can prove my knowledge of God is greater than others? Or do I wish people to see that the term freewill is an inhibitor to seeing how much we are completely dependent upon God? For this to me is how we Love God and worship Him in Truth and Spirit.

 

[Former Christian]

Childeye

I understand what you are saying, after all I was brought up believing I had a freewill. I held myself and everyone else completely resonsible for their actions and all my reasoning followed accordingly. I was absolutely sure a man's will was sovereign. But as I began to have the Holy Spirit correct me, I came to realize just how many times He instructed me contrary to what I would have done otherwise. These were not moments of choice for me, but clear differences in paths I would have not otherwise seen.

The first Church I attended taught as you do now. And I was momentarily swayed. Until the Holy Spirit began to correct me. Our paths are obviously directly opposite. To you, the truth as you see it, is true to you. And the truth as I see it, is true to me. Is the Spirit teaching you or me? We have both adequately presented our own understanding as clearly as we could. And now that I see that clearly, I see no reason to continue this discussion. It’s your thread, so really I should leave you to propagate your truth. You are on the side of the majority in Protestant Christianity. The view I present of the matter is more in line with the Roman Catholic view then the Calvinist Protestant view. I’ve never been sure what Luther thought of Calvin’s view on this matter. At times he seemed to agree, and other times he did not.

The Wesleyans try to take a median view between the RC and Calvinist views. Only because John Wesley who originated the view was caught between them himself. Were you aware that Wesley never became a Methodist? He continued to be an Anglican his entire life, disagreeing with those who decided to divide from Anglicanism. That one act by Wesley probably hindered the speed at which Anglicanism deteriorated into what it is today.

One small example, driving in my car and somebody would cut me off. I would get angry and start cursing the other driver. The Holy Spirit however would interrupt my tirade. He would bring to mind times when I myself was forced to cut in front of somebody

So the Holy Spirit convicted you of having a spirit of arrogance showing how you were as guilty as the other driver. Your response was right. But in typical Christian fashion, you interpreted it to mean more than was intended. Along with learning from the Spirit, it may be you have learned well from your Christian teachers, grasshopper.

Those who are in Christ, due to whatever Christian influences are open to them, tend to have a view that is a mixture of the teaching of Jesus Christ through the Spirit, the teaching of their Christian peers who practice biblical interpretation, and the teaching of their own practice of biblical interpretation. And then there are those who aren’t in Christ at all, relying only on biblical interpretation apart from any teaching of the Spirit.

It certainly makes any reconciliation of the Christian denominations, apart from agreement on doctrinal minimizations, a moot point. The unity of liberal Lutherans into one huge Lutheran conglomerate (actually two I think), isn’t really unity over Lutheran or biblical principles. If it wasn’t for smaller conservative Lutheran communities like the Missouri Synod, original Lutheranism would be lost to modern Christianity.

So the term freewill is relative. I would say I am now more free than I ever have been. When before the guidance of the Holy Spirit, I would have said I was completely free. That is why semantics are a problem. To what is the free being applied? I want you so much to relate to this. Unfortunately, if you have not had this experience, I would understand why you can't agree with it. Do you understand what I have said here?

I understand. And I have had the experience you related. It just didn’t lead to the same view you have. Nor to the view I present. The experience didn’t teach me any more than intended.

Nevertheless, what you say about free will being relative, that is true in the view I present. Decisions out of one’s free will are limited to only being perfect by hindsight. Yet the existence of free will is why we can learn from our mistakes. Actually, I think we agree that non-believers can’t see the light of the world apart from the work of the Spirit of God. Where we disagree is that not all who are non-believers follow Satan exclusively. Some follow their own mind as well as their flesh and Satan, if he even chooses to bother himself to lead them directly. Look at James Cameron and Steven Seagal. They both choose to follow their own minds in regard to technological sophistication and the meaning of justice. But both follow their own flesh in regard to their multiple marriages.

Some Christians do think they are perfectly free just because they are Christians. Nothing could be further from the truth. Continued free will as one who is in Christ is integral to the determinations made through the decisions from minute to minute as to whether to walk by the Spirit or by the flesh. Which is why Paul had to encourage the Galatians to walk by the Spirit rather than the flesh, even though they lived by the Spirit. They had no choice as to their life in Christ once in Christ. Those who are in Christ have no free will as to life, that determination having already been made through the mutual agreement of the individual and God. But they have full free will as to their walk.

FC

 

[Former Christian]

HisSheep

Why do free-willers love this “robot defense†for their theology?

Because that’s how it appears. If Satan is doing everything before salvation, and God is doing everything after salvation, what can one think but that humans are just mindless robots incapable of doing anything on their own? Even the idea of some kind of synergy becomes ludicrous.

In the view I present, synergy is key. Unbelievers follow Satan, even if inadvertently. But they don’t loose their free will in the process. Satan allows more leeway in personal thinking than most conservative Christians wish to believe. But each unbeliever in their own way is a part of Satan’s plan. Believers follow God. But they don’t loose their free will in the process. They still are able to choose to what extent they follow God. But each believer in their own way is a part of God’s plan.

Modern technology is a part of Satan’s plan. Of that I have no doubt. Yet that doesn’t keep God from using technology for his own ends when necessary. Not due to any lack of his own, but due to the unbelief of those who are supposed to be, through their own free will, following God alone. But due to their own free will choose to follow God only so far and no farther. Paul was able to preach the Gospel of Jesus Christ very effectively without all the modern technological conveniences. Better than those who have those technological conveniences today.

The bible tells us that God gets His way with men

Definitely not true in the OT. And the NT is a constant reminder that God wants that very thing in those who are in Christ, but has to keep reminding them of that fact. Why do you think humanity needs to be in Christ in the first place? Perhaps so he could save it from itself? Certainly not due to Satan, who’s already been dealt with.

1 John 3:8 He who does what is sinful is of the devil, because the devil has been sinning from the beginning. The reason the Son of God appeared was to destroy the devil’s work. (NIV)

Hebrews 2:14 Since the children have flesh and blood, he too shared in their humanity so that by his death he might destroy him who holds the power of death— that is, the devil— (NIV)

And all the inhabitants of the earth are reputed as nothing: and he doeth according to his will in the army of heaven, and among the inhabitants of the earth: and none can stay his hand, or say unto him, What doest thou? (Daniel 4:35)
Even the mighty will of man cannot stay God’s hand.

Daniel 4:
34 ¶ And at the end of the days I Nebuchadnezzar lifted up mine eyes unto heaven, and mine understanding returned unto me, and I blessed the most High, and I praised and honoured him that liveth for ever, whose dominion is an everlasting dominion, and his kingdom is from generation to generation:
35 And all the inhabitants of the earth are reputed as nothing: and he doeth according to his will in the army of heaven, and among the inhabitants of the earth: and none can stay his hand, or say unto him, What doest thou?
36 At the same time my reason returned unto me; and for the glory of my kingdom, mine honour and brightness returned unto me; and my counsellors and my lords sought unto me; and I was established in my kingdom, and excellent majesty was added unto me.
37 Now I Nebuchadnezzar praise and extol and honour the King of heaven, all whose works are truth, and his ways judgment: and those that walk in pride he is able to abase.
(KJV)

Nebuchadnezzar is saying this, not God. The whole OT is a record of how that wasn’t always true for Israel, and even less true of the nations. But at least Nebuchadnezzar’s thinking that did accomplish its purpose at the time.

Try not to think of yourself as a robot, but a sheep. It is a much better analogy.
All the sheep will hear, believe and follow. Some will need more convincing than others, some may even need to be carried, but none will be lost.

Sheep are sheep only so long as they continue to follow. When they stop following, they are sheep gone astray through their own free will.

FC

 

[Former Christian]

Danus

Well, we where discussing Total Depravity and I was attempting to give you a better understanding of what Calvin means in that term and how that relates conceptually to our condition as it is understood within the protestant reform theology.
Now your asking me to go down another path, regarding free will.

You’ve accomplished your goal more than adequately.

I can do that, but I am not here to convince you of what I already understand, or change your mind in what you understand, although I've no problem challenging it.

I’m not so much challenging anything. Just expressing my own cringing point. Just like Childeye. I’m neither a Protestant nor Roman Catholic. I’m not even a Christian being a former Christian. Nevertheless, the view I present is NOT a view that is anti-supernatural. Naturally the view I present is going to be different. I understand the Reformed view, and its implications. I once believed it myself. When people like James White, R. C. Sproul, and John MacArthur, great expounders of the reformed view, expound things relating to the Reformed view, I understand them perfectly, though I disagree.

So, Paul is speaking about salvation in Christ as of Christ and not of our own effort. That it what he's speaking. However, it is not the protestant understanding that faith is of our own, as you say. Faith is from God to man.

In the view I present, individuals are initially given the revelation concerning the existence of God and the gospel of Christ, a gospel that includes the present problem of man and God’s solution to that problem. It is known from within that what is revealed is true. At least that was my experience as an Atheist. I attribute that now as the work of the Holy Spirit. This work of the Spirit, according to the words of Jesus of Nazareth, is ongoing in the world in all men. Not to just some idea of a limited elect. Then in our own free will we are offered a choice. Go on as we were or receive the free gift offered by God. We are already convinced by that which is within. So to reject the offer is to reject that which is within and become, not remain, a believer in something else in spite of revelation to the contrary. Though in practical experience it is as if one just continues as one was. If the free gift is accepted, that faith is than expressed in water baptism. That is believing into Jesus Christ, according to what is recorded in John (e.g., John 3). Simultaneously to water baptism, the one who believes is baptized into Christ (and naturally into his Body) by the Holy Spirit. That solidifies a salvation that can’t be lost because the Holy Spirit is the seal of that redemption that is in Christ. It can’t be lost because it is in Christ. It can’t be lost because of the power and love of God. The idea that the one who is in Christ is secure in Christ as far as salvation is concerned, is the only point of agreement of the view I present with Calvinism. That point of agreement being for different reasons.

One isn’t justified by human faith, whether called the faith of God or not. One is justified by the faith of Christ (the translation of verses such as Rom 3:22 and Gal 2:16 in the KJV are considered the true translation over the modern translations that conform to the Christianity Tradition that one is save by their own faith in Christ). The Justification controversy between Roman Catholicism and Protestantism is a controversy based on a false idea.

Again the protestant view is that we are works of God, faith is from God, our salvation is from god....all to us. This speaks to the sovereignty of God.

Too generic. Can’t be said to be the Protestant view, as many Protestants don’t hold that view. And as created beings humanity in Adam is the work of God. Humanity in Christ is a new creation that is what it is due to Christ, not due to man.

You have a lot here that deserves some weeding out, but for the most part, your use of scripture is just fine, and I'd say you have a good grasp on context as well.

Understanding the context has more value than understanding by interpretation.

However, I'm not sure you have a good grasp on the different theologies as it relates to scripture.

Not all of them, no. Too many for this ordinary mind to consider.

What you think Calvin means, or what you express protestants think about these same verses. I'd suggest you study up a little more on those things.

Did too much of that already. All it did was confuse the bleep out of me.

One thing that is important to note when studying the bible, there is no one person who "get's it" and all others are blind idiots. The world has not been waiting for God to send you, or me or some else to interpret his word to all the morons.

I don’t agree with you, so I must think I’m something special. Try to be a little more original. Do you think, I think, I’m some kind of special messenger sent from God? Do you think I would bother with a forum if I thought I was? Don’t you think I would be too busy with a community centered on what’s been personally revealed to me, if that’s what I thought? Don’t you think that what you believe is true?

So far I've not seen a framed argument here from you about how we are saved.

Well, that at least has been remedied above in summary form.

Why you call yourself "Former Christian" I've no idea. You actually seem pretty Christian to me in your knowledge of the faith

I already explained that to someone on this forum. Apparently it wasn’t you.

In the view I present, there is a difference between a former Christian and a non-Christian. The former Christian believes that Christianity is a man-made religion and that it is denominational in character as a natural result of its nature. The former Christian does, however, still believe in the bible as the inspired Scripture given by God. The vast majority of Christians and non-Christians, see Christianity and the bible as a whole, as one unit, that stands or falls together. That philosophy, if Christianity is rejected, can only lead to Atheism, Agnosticism, or perhaps to a reconsideration of the various non-Christian religions. Or to something else. The non-Christian believes both Christianity and the bible are man derived.

Are you wanting to talk about free will and the views on that? That would be the theme of the thread.

Not particularly. I haven’t been very innovative in regard to free will versus whatever. I have nothing new to add to what I’ve already said. I initially posted in reaction to Childeye who said, well, you know what he said in the title of this thread. I merely cringed at his cringe. Just a stupid reaction, and I should be more in control of my illogical feelings. Illogical considering so many cringe just as he does and I’ve been experiencing the cringe for years.

I've laid down a few views already. The reformed view is what I subscribe to. That's the reformed protestant view. Some like to call it the "Calvin view", but I disagree. Calvin had nothing o do with developing it as a whole.

Your right. The idea isn’t original with Calvin. He got it from someone else and refined it a bit with a few minor changes. But he propagated the view. And it isn’t called Calvinism even due to that. It’s called Calvinism because of his own popularity. Because so many followed the ideas he presented. John Knox (through whom Presbyterianism originated) and Anglicanism further propagated these ideas in their own time.

By the time of John Wesley, Anglicanism had already split into several factions ranging to almost Roman Catholic to very Evangelical. While Wesley would have been considered an Evangelical in his day, what he presented was not the Cramner version of Evangelicalism, which was very Calvinistic. Wesley was much more Roman Catholic. And of course we know Wesleyanism has influenced Methodism, Holiness, Pentecostalism, the Restoration Movement represented chiefly today in the Churches of Christ, Adventist groups like the Seventh day Adventists and the Jehovah’s Witnesses, and no telling how many others. But as far as numbers, the majority of Protestants still hold to some form of Calvinism. How much Luther disagreed with Calvin in this area, it’s hard to say. In his writings that I’ve read, he seems to vacillate between Calvinism to an almost Wesleyan view, depending on his emphasis.

FC

 

[Elijah674]

You contributed another good post to this thread JMJ along with appropriate scriptures. I especially liked 1 Corinthians 3:1-4. But still we are dancing around the central point. For while some are saying we must Love God others are saying God does not force anyone to Love Him. You have descibed a measure of the Love a man has for God by keeping His commandments. While it is true one who loves God, keeps His commandments, I would say to Love God is the consequence of knowing Him. The semantics of the word freewill is a hinderance in every discussion I have ever had about God. While I agree a man willingly Loves God and cannot Love God unwillingly, I would disagree that a man has the option not to love Him after knowing Him.

This may be difficult to understand but while God will not force a man to Love Him by beating a sense of reverance into the man, it also can be said that through the circumstances of where sin leads a man, God uses those circumstances to force a man to seek God in hope of escape from those circumstances. And upon being rescued, a thankful man also is forced to love God in acquiessence to His faithfulness and mercy. I would point out the scripture where Jesus asks the Pharisees, who loves the Master more, he who was forgiven much or he who was forgiven little?

In Light of the fact that sin is a slavery of the will subject to carnal impulse, the big picture seems to show that God uses sin and our own lies upon which sin manifests itself, to glorify Himself. It is therefore hard to say any of this happened by a man's freewill. More likely, God's will is being brought to pass by what we refer to as our freewill, but is actually just a will subject to Light and darkness bouncing off the boundries God has laid out to serve His ends. Hissheep posted a great scripture concerning this in post #32.

Pertaining to your primary issue represented by scriptures such as James 2:22 and Titus 3:14; It is clear you value the term freewill for the responsibility factor involved with making sure we walk in good works. Of course I am not going to say we need not do good works. Only that the motivator is Love not freewill responsibility. Faith is the mechanics through which Love works, but Love is the cause and purpose of faith. That is why Paul says, even if I have all faith so as to move mountains, yet do not have Love, I am nothing. All the good works without Love count as nothing but self glorification, not Godly glorification. That is why freewill is not the appropriate term to inspire good works. The will needs to be motivated by faith in the Eternal Spirit of Godly Love so that it is not our wills doing it, willing love to exist that is.

Please give thought to what I have shared regarding my thoughts on this, and ponder what my motives are on this thread. Am I trying to argue so that I can prove my knowledge of God is greater than others? Or do I wish people to see that the term freewill is an inhibitor to seeing how much we are completely dependent upon God? For this to me is how we Love God and worship Him in Truth and Spirit.

Corresponding with this mindset is futile.. (one says??)
'I have ever had about God. While I agree a man willingly Loves God and cannot Love God unwillingly, I would disagree that a man has the option not to love Him after knowing Him.'
_____

Rev. 1
[12] And I turned to see the voice that spake with me. And being turned, I saw seven golden candlesticks;
[13] And in the midst of the seven candlesticks one like unto the Son of man, clothed with a garment down to the foot, and girt about the paps with a golden girdle.
....
[16] And he had in his right hand seven stars: and out of his mouth went a sharp twoedged sword: and his countenance was as the sun shineth in his strength.
[17] And when I saw him, I fell at his feet as dead. And he laid his right hand upon me, saying unto me, Fear not; I am the first and the last:
[18] I am he that liveth, and was dead; and, behold, I am alive for evermore, Amen; and have the keys of hell and of death.
[19] Write the things which thou hast seen, and the things which are, and the things which shall be hereafter;
[20] The mystery of the seven stars which thou sawest in [[my right hand, and the seven golden candlesticks. The seven stars are the angels of the seven churches: and the seven candlesticks which thou sawest [ARE THE SEVEN CHURCHES.]

And these ones were not Born Again with True Agapie Love??:robot That teaching
indeed does have MUCH Missing!

Rev. 2:5

[1] Unto the angel of the church of Ephesus write; These things saith he that holdeth the seven stars in his right hand, who walketh in the midst of the seven golden candlesticks;
[2] I know thy works, and thy labour, and thy patience, and how thou canst not bear them which are evil: and thou hast tried them which say they are apostles, and are not, and hast found them liars:
[3] And hast borne, and hast patience, and for my name's sake hast laboured, and hast not fainted.

[4] Nevertheless I have somewhat against thee, because thou hast left thy first love.
D
('hast' what?? LEFT thy [FIRST] LOVE being DOCUMENTED THAT THEY INDEED HAD AT THE BEGINNING! Now what does Christ say??? And some of these were NOT once Born Again?? Again, 'i' smell Gen. 4:7 all over again being Eccl. 3:15 REPEATED! being brain DEAD is even a better opportunity as seen in Rev. 3:16 COLD than these ones!)

[5] [Remember therefore from whence thou art fallen], and repent, and do the [first works;] [[[or else I will come unto thee quickly, and will remove thy candlestick out of his place]]], except thou repent.

Rev. 3
[13] He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches.
[14] And unto the angel of the church of the Laodiceans write; These things saith the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of the creation of God;
[15] I know thy works, that thou art neither cold nor hot: I would thou wert cold or hot.
[16] So then because thou art lukewarm, and neither cold nor hot, I will spue thee out of my mouth.
[17] Because thou sayest, I am rich, and increased with goods, and have need of nothing; and knowest not that thou art wretched, and miserable, and poor, and blind, and naked:
_____

And who on this earth can READ ANOTHER'S MOTIVES!!:robot

yours truely!

 

[Elijah674]

You contributed another good post to this thread JMJ along with appropriate scriptures. I especially liked 1 Corinthians 3:1-4. But still we are dancing around the central point. For while some are saying we must Love God others are saying God does not force anyone to Love Him. You have descibed a measure of the Love a man has for God by keeping His commandments. While it is true one who loves God, keeps His commandments, I would say to Love God is the consequence of knowing Him. The semantics of the word freewill is a hinderance in every discussion I have ever had about God. While I agree a man willingly Loves God and cannot Love God unwillingly, I would disagree that a man has the option not to love Him after knowing Him.

This may be difficult to understand but while God will not force a man to Love Him by beating a sense of reverance into the man, it also can be said that through the circumstances of where sin leads a man, God uses those circumstances to force a man to seek God in hope of escape from those circumstances. And upon being rescued, a thankful man also is forced to love God in acquiessence to His faithfulness and mercy. I would point out the scripture where Jesus asks the Pharisees, who loves the Master more, he who was forgiven much or he who was forgiven little?

In Light of the fact that sin is a slavery of the will subject to carnal impulse, the big picture seems to show that God uses sin and our own lies upon which sin manifests itself, to glorify Himself. It is therefore hard to say any of this happened by a man's freewill. More likely, God's will is being brought to pass by what we refer to as our freewill, but is actually just a will subject to Light and darkness bouncing off the boundries God has laid out to serve His ends. Hissheep posted a great scripture concerning this in post #32.

Pertaining to your primary issue represented by scriptures such as James 2:22 and Titus 3:14; It is clear you value the term freewill for the responsibility factor involved with making sure we walk in good works. Of course I am not going to say we need not do good works. Only that the motivator is Love not freewill responsibility. Faith is the mechanics through which Love works, but Love is the cause and purpose of faith. That is why Paul says, even if I have all faith so as to move mountains, yet do not have Love, I am nothing. All the good works without Love count as nothing but self glorification, not Godly glorification. That is why freewill is not the appropriate term to inspire good works. The will needs to be motivated by faith in the Eternal Spirit of Godly Love so that it is not our wills doing it, willing love to exist that is.

Please give thought to what I have shared regarding my thoughts on this, and ponder what my motives are on this thread. Am I trying to argue so that I can prove my knowledge of God is greater than others? Or do I wish people to see that the term freewill is an inhibitor to seeing how much we are completely dependent upon God? For this to me is how we Love God and worship Him in Truth and Spirit.

Corresponding with this mindset is futile.. (one says??)
'I have ever had about God. While I agree a man willingly Loves God and cannot Love God unwillingly, I would disagree that a man has the option not to love Him after knowing Him.'
_____

Rev. 1
[12] And I turned to see the voice that spake with me. And being turned, I saw seven golden candlesticks;
[13] And in the midst of the seven candlesticks one like unto the Son of man, clothed with a garment down to the foot, and girt about the paps with a golden girdle.
....
[16] And he had in his right hand seven stars: and out of his mouth went a sharp twoedged sword: and his countenance was as the sun shineth in his strength.
[17] And when I saw him, I fell at his feet as dead. And he laid his right hand upon me, saying unto me, Fear not; I am the first and the last:
[18] I am he that liveth, and was dead; and, behold, I am alive for evermore, Amen; and have the keys of hell and of death.
[19] Write the things which thou hast seen, and the things which are, and the things which shall be hereafter;
[20] The mystery of the seven stars which thou sawest in [[my right hand, and the seven golden candlesticks. The seven stars are the angels of the seven churches: and the seven candlesticks which thou sawest [ARE THE SEVEN CHURCHES.]

And these ones were not Born Again with True Agapie Love??:robot That teaching
indeed does have MUCH Missing!

Rev. 2:5

[1] Unto the angel of the church of Ephesus write; These things saith he that holdeth the seven stars in his right hand, who walketh in the midst of the seven golden candlesticks;
[2] I know thy works, and thy labour, and thy patience, and how thou canst not bear them which are evil: and thou hast tried them which say they are apostles, and are not, and hast found them liars:
[3] And hast borne, and hast patience, and for my name's sake hast laboured, and hast not fainted.

[4] Nevertheless I have somewhat against thee, because thou hast left thy first love.
D
('hast' what?? LEFT thy [FIRST] LOVE being DOCUMENTED THAT THEY INDEED HAD AT THE BEGINNING! Now what does Christ say??? And some of these were NOT once Born Again?? Again, 'i' smell Gen. 4:7 all over again being Eccl. 3:15 REPEATED! being brain DEAD is even a better opportunity as seen in Rev. 3:16 COLD than these ones!)

[5] [Remember therefore from whence thou art fallen], and repent, and do the [first works;] [[[or else I will come unto thee quickly, and will remove thy candlestick out of his place]]], except thou repent.

Rev. 3
[13] He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches.
[14] And unto the angel of the church of the Laodiceans write; These things saith the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of the creation of God;
[15] I know thy works, that thou art neither cold nor hot: I would thou wert cold or hot.
[16] So then because thou art lukewarm, and neither cold nor hot, I will spue thee out of my mouth.
[17] Because thou sayest, I am rich, and increased with goods, and have need of nothing; and knowest not that thou art wretched, and miserable, and poor, and blind, and naked:
_____

And who on this earth can READ ANOTHER'S MOTIVES!!:robot

yours truely!