Why I Don't Exhort Others to Ask Jesus Into Their Heart

[for_his_glory]

I use to go to church as a child with the neighbors family, but at that time it was just a fun thing to do until I hit my early teenage years then it became boring to me. When I was 17 my then boyfriend invited me to his church and I thought what the heck I'll give it a try. After hearing the sermon they had an altar call and the only reason I went up was I was afraid to go to hell. I repeated the "sinners prayer" as I thought that was all I had to do was to repeat a written out prayer. I spoke from my head and not from my heart because I knew nothing much about Jesus other then the stories from Sunday school when I was little.

To make a long story short the so called mechanical "sinners prayer" had nothing to do with having a Spiritual renewal in Christ and since I really did not know much at that time I drew away from the whole church thing and went back to my same lifestyle. It wouldn't be until a couple years later that God would put a special girlfriend in my life that allowed the Spirit of God work in her to draw me back to wanting to know all I could about Jesus so what I am saying is even the demons believe, but still reject and even though I do say at times to ask Jesus into your heart I also give them Romans 10:9, 10 to show them how to receive Jesus as Lord and Savior.

 

[Gazelle]

Maybe this will be interesting to read?

http://www.biblestudytools.com/bible-study/explore-the-bible/11636339.html

It is the basic on "nephesh" in the OT (soul) ...and reference to "heart." ;)

be well.

 

[handy]

It was an interesting read and thanks for sharing it....

As to it's application to this discussion...Obviously, all who are in Christ have Christ within their heart...soul...

But, my beef about altar calls, the "sinner's prayer" and "asking Jesus into your heart"...

Too often, what happens is the person will "ask Jesus into their heart" due to the emotion and yes, manipulation...often the manipulation is well-meant, but nonetheless...of the service itself. There is a reason why the rhythm of the music changes, how the ebb and flow of the voice modulates...how the service runs from getting everyone on a high, excited plane...then everything slows down, the music becomes soft and appealing and the pastor's voice smooths down...all of this manipulates the emotions and feelings and it's in this emotionally charged atmosphere that the Pastor starts to call, "Come down...come down and be saved...come home sinner, come home..." Then, especially for younger folks....peer pressure sets in when folks do begin to go down. And, naturally (although this is most likely not known by any newbies there) those going down first are already Christians, they are going down to "help" those who might go down to pray the sinner's prayer. But, the impression for the searcher at this point is..."Wow, God's Spirit must be moving in those people"...not realizing that in reality "those people" are basically staff, so to speak.

All of this being targeted towards people searching for spiritual answers.

I don't view any of that as a valid "spiritual answer" to anything. Feels nice, but doesn't accomplish much except to set up a source of confusion for those who go home afterwards, expecting some kind of magical transformation in their lives and find it not forthcoming.

 

[Gazelle]

I agree, basically, regarding the hype that some churches do go through. ( I am reminded though of the verse that speaks to the urgency, and how it's almost pragmatic to do such antics...Jude 1:23 Viewing the 1769 King James Version.
And others save with fear, pulling [them] out of the fire; hating even the garment spotted by the flesh.)


I'm more thinking of the one on one talking with a child.

I don't believe in coincidences, and just the other day or two, the young (40) female host on the 700 club seemingly out of the blue (to me) said...years ago as a young child (did she give her age?) ...when I asked Jesus into my heart....

and I was reassured that yes, children do accept Christ this way...so it can't be all bad.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

It was an interesting read and thanks for sharing it....

As to it's application to this discussion...Obviously, all who are in Christ have Christ within their heart...soul...

But, my beef about altar calls, the "sinner's prayer" and "asking Jesus into your heart"...

Too often, what happens is the person will "ask Jesus into their heart" due to the emotion and yes, manipulation...often the manipulation is well-meant, but nonetheless...of the service itself. There is a reason why the rhythm of the music changes, how the ebb and flow of the voice modulates...how the service runs from getting everyone on a high, excited plane...then everything slows down, the music becomes soft and appealing and the pastor's voice smooths down...all of this manipulates the emotions and feelings and it's in this emotionally charged atmosphere that the Pastor starts to call, "Come down...come down and be saved...come home sinner, come home..." Then, especially for younger folks....peer pressure sets in when folks do begin to go down. And, naturally (although this is most likely not known by any newbies there) those going down first are already Christians, they are going down to "help" those who might go down to pray the sinner's prayer. But, the impression for the searcher at this point is..."Wow, God's Spirit must be moving in those people"...not realizing that in reality "those people" are basically staff, so to speak.

All of this being targeted towards people searching for spiritual answers.

I don't view any of that as a valid "spiritual answer" to anything. Feels nice, but doesn't accomplish much except to set up a source of confusion for those who go home afterwards, expecting some kind of magical transformation in their lives and find it not forthcoming.

Sounds like your resistance is with the method and the motivation, not the message, not even the message, "ask Jesus into your heart".

 

[Jethro Bodine]

I don't believe in coincidences, and just the other day or two, the young (40) female host on the 700 club seemingly out of the blue (to me) said...years ago as a young child (did she give her age?) ...when I asked Jesus into my heart....

and I was reassured that yes, children do accept Christ this way...so it can't be all bad.[/size][/font]

I agree.
If a person describes their salvation experience as "I asked Jesus into my heart" and they really did come to faith and repentance in Christ how can that be bad?

 

[handy]

I'm really challenging y'all to think outside the box here...and to examine why "it can be bad."

Here is my first confession of faith...it happened when I was about 5 or 6 years old. I had read through Mirriam's Big Book of Bible Stories and was convicted by the Holy Spirit regarding my sin. Keep in mind, I'm not being raised with any Christian teaching...there was Mirriam's and that was it. However, reading through the stories I came to understand that sinning was bad, that I did sin (I knew I disobeyed my parents, had told some lies, etc.) and God didn't like it and He required sacrifice for it. (I was reading the OT stories, hadn't reached the NT stories yet). I knew that He preferred animal sacrifices (story of Cain and Abel) but the only animal that was truly mine was the cat and I knew that I would get into all kinds of trouble if I sacrificed the cat....not to mention that I loved the cat dearly and didn't want to sacrifice him. So, instead, I went out and made this altar out of some river rocks and a largish piece of slate. I then gathered as many of the beautiful wild flowers as I could possibly find and laid them on the altar and then prayed that God would accept that as my sacrifice until I was old enough to get a proper one.

Now, I believe 100% that that was a true "Jesus coming into the heart moment". When giving my testimony, I don't really refer to that time as the time I became a Christian...that came when I was about 13 and entered into full belief. But, that "sacrifice" nonetheless marks when the Holy Spirit started working salvation in me, even as a young child.

It worked, I certainly was saved.So, why not refuse children Christian parenting and instruction and just give them Mirriam's Big Book of Bible studies, some rocks and some flowers and have them pray to the Lord to accept the flowers as an IOU. It worked for me...so it's not "bad" is it?

The Lord saved in spite of my ignorance, not because of my actions. I truly believe this is the same with most, certainly not all, but most, conversions that come from "ask Jesus into the heart" prayers. Certainly the Holy Spirit can use that prayer if someone is truly being convicted, just like He used mine with the flowers as I was being convicted.

The issue is never when it's a matter of the Holy Spirit convicting someone and salvation enters in. Salvation most certainly can enter in when a child, or any one prays the sinner's prayer or ask's Jesus into their heart due to the promptings and convictions of the Holy Spirit...just as it did the day the Holy Spirit convicted me after reading Mirriam's Big Book of Bible Stories.

But...FOLKS!!! Please, listen. Listen to what the issue is. We hear all the time people saying "I was once a Christian...I prayed that sinner's prayer all the time...I asked Jesus into my heart...I don't believe that stuff anymore."

That's where the problem is.

Not the times when some are saved due to this response to the Holy Spirit's conviction...but the times when people think they are saved.

They think they are saved because they were told that, "if you say this prayer, then Jesus will enter in and you will be saved." They think they are saved, because they performed an action and was told that salvation is the outcome of that action.

When all involved, the sinner, the "helper", even perhaps the preacher crooning "Just as I Am" are ignoring the fact that salvation is the work of the Holy Spirit, not a result of an action.

My dad had this old truck at one point in time. There was something wrong with the engine of the truck...needed some extensive work done on it and he didn't have the time to work on it. He preferred to use the truck around the ranch, if he could get it started, but most of the times it wouldn't start. What he would do is always park it at the top of the slope of our driveway. Then, he would throw the thing into gear and try to pop the clutch to get it started...sometimes it would work and sometimes it wouldn't. If it worked, he didn't allow it to stop running until he parked it up at the top of the driveway. If not, he'd tow the thing back up there and haul out the wheelbarrow. Popping the clutch was a sort of easy-fix...maybe worked maybe didn't...that he used with that truck for the better part of the summer until he saved up for the parts and took a weekend to do the real work of actually fixing the truck.

Too often, the altar calls, sinner's prayers, "ask Jesus into the heart" is a lot like popping a clutch...an easy fix that, sure enough, sometimes works. But, we're not talking about an old truck now. We are talking about people who need real spiritual answers to real spiritual issues and need true salvation and not an easy fix. People who very well might think they are "saved" because they said some words...out of a sense of peer pressure, or because they felt that was what one is supposed to do...but truly haven't been under the conviction of the Holy Spirit.

Most of the denominations that are really into the "altar call" format are also staunchly "Once Saved, Always Saved".

So, when someone comes along with the testimony of "Yeah, I prayed that prayer at VBS when I was a kid and was saved, but I'm not any more" the response is..."Well then, you were never saved in the first place."

EXACTLY!!!!

 

[Ace1234]

Why Billy Graham made the sinners prayer famous in modern times, he hardly had anything to do with the concept. Many great evangelist from the 1700's-1800's entire sermons were on instant conversion with the sinners prayer, using many fear concepts eternal hell such as DL Moody, etc...Often during their meetings people would come to Christ anytime during the service. I think more in the mid 1900's with several denomiantions the tactic to sinners prayers and alter calls of salvation after the message become a seemingly better tactic.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

I'm really challenging y'all to think outside the box here...and to examine why "it can be bad."

Here is my first confession of faith...it happened when I was about 5 or 6 years old. I had read through Mirriam's Big Book of Bible Stories and was convicted by the Holy Spirit regarding my sin. Keep in mind, I'm not being raised with any Christian teaching...there was Mirriam's and that was it. However, reading through the stories I came to understand that sinning was bad, that I did sin (I knew I disobeyed my parents, had told some lies, etc.) and God didn't like it and He required sacrifice for it. (I was reading the OT stories, hadn't reached the NT stories yet). I knew that He preferred animal sacrifices (story of Cain and Abel) but the only animal that was truly mine was the cat and I knew that I would get into all kinds of trouble if I sacrificed the cat....not to mention that I loved the cat dearly and didn't want to sacrifice him. So, instead, I went out and made this altar out of some river rocks and a largish piece of slate. I then gathered as many of the beautiful wild flowers as I could possibly find and laid them on the altar and then prayed that God would accept that as my sacrifice until I was old enough to get a proper one.

Now, I believe 100% that that was a true "Jesus coming into the heart moment". When giving my testimony, I don't really refer to that time as the time I became a Christian...that came when I was about 13 and entered into full belief. But, that "sacrifice" nonetheless marks when the Holy Spirit started working salvation in me, even as a young child.

It worked, I certainly was saved.So, why not refuse children Christian parenting and instruction and just give them Mirriam's Big Book of Bible studies, some rocks and some flowers and have them pray to the Lord to accept the flowers as an IOU. It worked for me...so it's not "bad" is it?

The Lord saved in spite of my ignorance, not because of my actions. I truly believe this is the same with most, certainly not all, but most, conversions that come from "ask Jesus into the heart" prayers. Certainly the Holy Spirit can use that prayer if someone is truly being convicted, just like He used mine with the flowers as I was being convicted.

The issue is never when it's a matter of the Holy Spirit convicting someone and salvation enters in. Salvation most certainly can enter in when a child, or any one prays the sinner's prayer or ask's Jesus into their heart due to the promptings and convictions of the Holy Spirit...just as it did the day the Holy Spirit convicted me after reading Mirriam's Big Book of Bible Stories.

But...FOLKS!!! Please, listen. Listen to what the issue is. We hear all the time people saying "I was once a Christian...I prayed that sinner's prayer all the time...I asked Jesus into my heart...I don't believe that stuff anymore."

That's where the problem is.

Not the times when some are saved due to this response to the Holy Spirit's conviction...but the times when people think they are saved.

They think they are saved because they were told that, "if you say this prayer, then Jesus will enter in and you will be saved." They think they are saved, because they performed an action and was told that salvation is the outcome of that action.

When all involved, the sinner, the "helper", even perhaps the preacher crooning "Just as I Am" are ignoring the fact that salvation is the work of the Holy Spirit, not a result of an action.

My dad had this old truck at one point in time. There was something wrong with the engine of the truck...needed some extensive work done on it and he didn't have the time to work on it. He preferred to use the truck around the ranch, if he could get it started, but most of the times it wouldn't start. What he would do is always park it at the top of the slope of our driveway. Then, he would throw the thing into gear and try to pop the clutch to get it started...sometimes it would work and sometimes it wouldn't. If it worked, he didn't allow it to stop running until he parked it up at the top of the driveway. If not, he'd tow the thing back up there and haul out the wheelbarrow. Popping the clutch was a sort of easy-fix...maybe worked maybe didn't...that he used with that truck for the better part of the summer until he saved up for the parts and took a weekend to do the real work of actually fixing the truck.

Too often, the altar calls, sinner's prayers, "ask Jesus into the heart" is a lot like popping a clutch...an easy fix that, sure enough, sometimes works. But, we're not talking about an old truck now. We are talking about people who need real spiritual answers to real spiritual issues and need true salvation and not an easy fix. People who very well might think they are "saved" because they said some words...out of a sense of peer pressure, or because they felt that was what one is supposed to do...but truly haven't been under the conviction of the Holy Spirit.

Most of the denominations that are really into the "altar call" format are also staunchly "Once Saved, Always Saved".

So, when someone comes along with the testimony of "Yeah, I prayed that prayer at VBS when I was a kid and was saved, but I'm not any more" the response is..."Well then, you were never saved in the first place."

EXACTLY!!!!

All of this is true for any other way people say you are to be brought to Christ...including baptism.

Can you see that the reason given for nullifying "ask Jesus into your heart" as a way to explain to people the gospel of the forgiveness of sins applies to all other ways, too. It's not the method. It's whether or not people really understand what it means to be saved.

 

[handy]

It's whether or not people really understand what it means to be saved.

Right...

It really does boil down to that. Which is why I think altar calls, sinner's prayers etc. does do a disservice, because they tend to not correlate into true understanding of what it means to be saved. Most often, it's a "response" to a highly emotionally charged atmosphere.

Hey, I'm not calling for an abolishment of altar calls...just pointing out the failures and serious consequenses of exactly what you mention: people not really understanding what it is they are doing.

And, this is especially true when one is leading a small child to it. Now, in the case of parents who are raising their children in a Christian home...I doubt it's much of a problem, because they are there, day to day to see to it that their child grows in faith.

I'm speaking far more of Vacation Bible Schools, King's Kamps, and youth group functions with a far more fluid population of kids. I really don't think any kind of "altar call" is appropriate for those kinds of functions. If the Holy Spirit is working within a child, then naturally someone can disciple that little soul along. But, to lead a kid in a "prayer" when it's not at all clear they even know what they are doing and why?

 

[Jethro Bodine]

How do you do it then?

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Right...

It really does boil down to that. Which is why I think altar calls, sinner's prayers etc. does do a disservice, because they tend to not correlate into true understanding of what it means to be saved. Most often, it's a "response" to a highly emotionally charged atmosphere.

Hey, I'm not calling for an abolishment of altar calls...just pointing out the failures and serious consequenses of exactly what you mention: people not really understanding what it is they are doing.

And, this is especially true when one is leading a small child to it. Now, in the case of parents who are raising their children in a Christian home...I doubt it's much of a problem, because they are there, day to day to see to it that their child grows in faith.

I'm speaking far more of Vacation Bible Schools, King's Kamps, and youth group functions with a far more fluid population of kids. I really don't think any kind of "altar call" is appropriate for those kinds of functions. If the Holy Spirit is working within a child, then naturally someone can disciple that little soul along. But, to lead a kid in a "prayer" when it's not at all clear they even know what they are doing and why?

In every salvation there is a moment in time where the decision is made to accept God's forgiveness and begin to live for him. An altar call is only an invitation to do that. I've never heard it presented as it being a thing that in and of itself saves you. But, interestingly enough, I have heard that about baptism. Honestly, I think baptism is more misused than any invitation to confess your sins at an altar and asking Jesus into your heart. Honestly.

I think the problem you don't like is the fact that emotionalism is used to make people accept Christ who haven't really weighed the cost yet. It's not the method that's the problem so much as it is making sure people know they're really ready to commit irregardless of the method used to lead them into that decision. Leading people to Christ is all about asking them to do that. I don't know how you can take that out of the process and just hope for the best. That is not even remotely Biblical.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

I had been toying with the decision to follow Christ for several months before I finally was able to commit to it. What finally made it happen? ...an official request by an evangelist to make that commitment. I think that is entirely and completely Biblical.

 

[handy]

In every salvation there is a moment in time where the decision is made to accept God's forgiveness and begin to live for him. An altar call is only an invitation to do that. I've never heard it presented as it being a thing that in and of itself saves you.

I guess that's why we are having a ...not really disagreement, because you have made many valid points that I do agree with...but at least the discussion. Because I have seen and heard these prayers being set forth as that which saves. I have witnessed Christians tell young children to pray and ask Jesus into their heart because if they do they won't have to go to hell but get to live forever and ever....and then have them pray...then tell them to breathe deeply, really deeply 4 or 5 times and be told, "Do you feel that!!!! That's Jesus coming in and He will never, ever, ever leave you." Honestly, first hand account of something that happened in Ceres, CA back in 1983. This was addressed to a group of preschoolers all around 3-5 years of age. I wonder how many of those kids prayed that prayer, felt a little hyper-ventilated from all the deep breathing exercise and thought..."Well, there's that little Jesus in my heart now..." only to hit the teen years and abandon all faith.

But, interestingly enough, I have heard that about baptism. Honestly, I think baptism is more misused than any invitation to confess your sins at an altar and asking Jesus into your heart. Honestly.

Fair enough...but I think baptism has been source of a fundamental difference of opinion within the church since the 1st centuary, something the Church has shown it can deal with...even if not all the well at time. Even with the disagreements about how baptism actually works within the believer, the Church has grown mighty and strong for over 2000 years. In my family, my brother and sisters were baptized as infants...I wasn't, my family left the Church prior to me being born, I was raised essentially non-Christian. My sibs had to wrestle with the place of baptism in their walk with God and deal with that issue...so I'm not disagreeing with you....but I'd still like to keep the focus on the whole "sinner's prayer" because I see issues with it as well...issues that folks don't seem to like to discuss because it seems like such a great idea and "how can it be bad?"

I think the problem you don't like is the fact that emotionalism is used to make people accept Christ who haven't really weighed the cost yet.

Quite right...I don't like it at all. Not that I have a problem with appealing to the emotions within our preaching and declaration of the Gospel. Peter and Paul gave some pretty emotionally impacting sermons that's for sure. But, I don't like the emotional manipulation that goes on at many services...the careful timing and pace of music...voice modulation...the things I've aready mentioned. Read through as much as one can...I don't see Jesus or the Apostles ever manipulating a crowd like that.

It's not the method that's the problem so much as it is making sure people know they're really ready to commit irregardless of the method used to lead them into that decision. Leading people to Christ is all about asking them to do that. I don't know how you can take that out of the process and just hope for the best. That is not even remotely Biblical.

What? Witnessing and living one's life before Christ...talking, sharing, praying for...and never asking "Would you like to ask Jesus into your heart?" Is that is what is not Biblical?

As you know, "asking Jesus into your heart" isn't Biblical...there is no example of it within Scripture.

Far more, the examples set forth in Scriptures shows a bold presentation of the Gospel...emotional, passionate even...and the response from the listeners is "What must we do to be saved?"

The answer is "Repent and be baptized." Not, "Ask Jesus into your heart."

Just out of curiosity, Jethro...Do you believe that if one has never "Asked Jesus into their heart" ...prayed some kind of sinner's prayer or anything..that would indicate one isn't a Christian?

Sincere question...not trying to lead into anything with it. I ask it because there was a time that I sincerely believed that one had to be able to point to a certain date/time that one "made a decision" in order to be a Christain. I simply couldn't get my head around the idea that one could just live a life of total belief...without having that "come to Jesus" altar call style moment.

PS...nice to have a decent discussion on this Jethro! I respect your insights, to be sure! :yes

 

[Jethro Bodine]

I have witnessed Christians tell young children to pray and ask Jesus into their heart because if they do they won't have to go to hell but get to live forever and ever...

If asking Jesus into your heart means having genuine faith and repentance to the person doing that then that most certainly will result in eternal life. I think it unreasonable to think asking Jesus into your heart is categorically an unacceptable way for a person to be led to make a confession of faith in God's forgiveness.

...and then have them pray...then tell them to breathe deeply, really deeply 4 or 5 times and be told, "Do you feel that!!!! That's Jesus coming in and He will never, ever, ever leave you." Honestly, first hand account of something that happened in Ceres, CA back in 1983. This was addressed to a group of preschoolers all around 3-5 years of age.

For as misguided as this example is I honestly don't think the answer for this is to tell people that the 'accept Jesus into their heart' is an unacceptable way to lead people in a confession of faith in God's forgiveness because there is no exact Biblical example of that. As I shared before, a strict Biblical way to be saved could just as easily be used to fool people into thinking they have genuinely received Christ in salvation when they really haven't.

I wonder how many of those kids prayed that prayer, felt a little hyper-ventilated from all the deep breathing exercise and thought..."Well, there's that little Jesus in my heart now..." only to hit the teen years and abandon all faith.

The Bible does teach us how we can know we are really saved and how we can know we really have Jesus in our heart, and it has nothing to do with examining the method through which you made your declaration of faith in Christ for the forgiveness of sins. Seriously, nothing.

...but I'd still like to keep the focus on the whole "sinner's prayer" because I see issues with it as well...issues that folks don't seem to like to discuss because it seems like such a great idea and "how can it be bad?"

How does one receive the forgiveness of God without them asking for it? That's what a 'sinner's prayer' is. It's asking, by faith, for God's forgiveness as he has provided that through the life and ministry of Jesus Christ. People who genuinely want to be forgiven and genuinely believe that God will forgive them for the asking are the ones who are justified and receive God's declaration of righteousness.

Quite right...I don't like it at all. Not that I have a problem with appealing to the emotions within our preaching and declaration of the Gospel. Peter and Paul gave some pretty emotionally impacting sermons that's for sure. But, I don't like the emotional manipulation that goes on at many services...the careful timing and pace of music...voice modulation...the things I've aready mentioned. Read through as much as one can...I don't see Jesus or the Apostles ever manipulating a crowd like that.

I don't know how it's possible that a strict Biblical way to share the gospel and lead people to Christ is how we guard the church against bringing people who are not really saved but only think they are into our churches. We know from the NT itself that was no assurance at all that false, insincere 'believer's would come into the church.

What? Witnessing and living one's life before Christ...talking, sharing, praying for...and never asking "Would you like to ask Jesus into your heart?" Is that is what is not Biblical?

As you know, "asking Jesus into your heart" isn't Biblical...there is no example of it within Scripture.

Receiving Jesus into your heart through the forgiveness of sins is entirely Biblical. Entirely. And no one who does not have Jesus in their heart through the forgiveness of sins will be saved. If the forgiveness of sins and receiving the hope of salvation is taught to mean receiving Christ into your heart as Lord and Savior I see no problem with it whatsoever.

I know that what this boils down to is the fear of venturing out of strict Biblical examples on what to say to people to lead them to salvation through the forgiveness of sins. I personally don't have any problems with sharing the Biblical truth of Christ dwelling in the heart through the forgiveness of sins in order to lead someone to that forgiveness. What's wrong with telling people that if you do not have Jesus in your heart you won't be saved?

Far more, the examples set forth in Scriptures shows a bold presentation of the Gospel...emotional, passionate even...and the response from the listeners is "What must we do to be saved?"

The answer is "Repent and be baptized." Not, "Ask Jesus into your heart."

I honestly think it's being exaggerated that 'asking Jesus into your heart' is presented to mean something other than asking God to forgive your sins and begin living for him.

Just out of curiosity, Jethro...Do you believe that if one has never "Asked Jesus into their heart" ...prayed some kind of sinner's prayer or anything..that would indicate one isn't a Christian? Sincere question...not trying to lead into anything with it.

No. Not categorically. But for someone who has been living in sin, somewhere, somehow they have to experience a change of mind about righteousness, sin and judgment. A change of mind that is somehow evidenced by how they are now living in contrast to the old way they were living. For most of us that change of mind happened in a moment of time. Probably in response to someone leading us toward that change of mind in some way.

I ask it because there was a time that I sincerely believed that one had to be able to point to a certain date/time that one "made a decision" in order to be a Christain. I simply couldn't get my head around the idea that one could just live a life of total belief...without having that "come to Jesus" altar call style moment.

I know there are people who grow up in godly homes where they essentially begin the Christian walk from birth. They can't pinpoint an exact moment in time they turned to the Lord because their whole life has been a walk of increasing trust in and obedience to God. John MacArthur has this testimony. He can't tell you the day he got saved. But for those of us who quite clearly lived in the world away from God, accountable for our sins, it's hard to understand how salvation could not be a moment in time where one decides to bow one's will to the will of God. That's how I understand 'asking Jesus into your heart'. It means asking forgiveness for your sins and repenting of those rebellious ways and now allowing God to rule your life through the Holy Spirit in your heart. A person will indeed be saved if they do that.

PS...nice to have a decent discussion on this Jethro! I respect your insights, to be sure! :yes

Well thank you! And I respect and enjoy your insights, too.

 

[Ace1234]

I spent most of my teen life and 20's in a fundy baptist church, tought sunday school, ran word of life, went to a baptist bible college and was the youth minister for two years. One issue I had, moreso with teens and children was fear tactics and connecting sin to salvation. During revivals and youth revivals I would watch seemingly my entire youth group get saved again, happened several times a year, over and over. At that age messages of purity and sin often confused youth, moreso after puberty when hormones rage and most felt they would lose their salvation. Understand we were a church that believed once saved always saved, just with these fiery messages the youth were convinced they were never saved.

I am a universalist now and believe God will save all his creation in his timing and order, so why I explain Christ to others and how he can change your life, I don't plead, scare, beg, etc...people to accept him.

 

[jasoncran]

I spent most of my teen life and 20's in a fundy baptist church, tought sunday school, ran word of life, went to a baptist bible college and was the youth minister for two years. One issue I had, moreso with teens and children was fear tactics and connecting sin to salvation. During revivals and youth revivals I would watch seemingly my entire youth group get saved again, happened several times a year, over and over. At that age messages of purity and sin often confused youth, moreso after puberty when hormones rage and most felt they would lose their salvation. Understand we were a church that believed once saved always saved, just with these fiery messages the youth were convinced they were never saved.

I am a universalist now and believe God will save all his creation in his timing and order, so why I explain Christ to others and how he can change your life, I don't plead, scare, beg, etc...people to accept him.

UNIVERSALISM ISNT allowed here per the tos save the one on one debate.

 

[handy]

I spent most of my teen life and 20's in a fundy baptist church, tought sunday school, ran word of life, went to a baptist bible college and was the youth minister for two years. One issue I had, moreso with teens and children was fear tactics and connecting sin to salvation. During revivals and youth revivals I would watch seemingly my entire youth group get saved again, happened several times a year, over and over. At that age messages of purity and sin often confused youth, moreso after puberty when hormones rage and most felt they would lose their salvation. Understand we were a church that believed once saved always saved, just with these fiery messages the youth were convinced they were never saved.

Thanks for sharing this part...it certainly addresses the problem as I see it. I've witnessed this type of thing as well.

I'm not advocating never having an altar call, or genuinely walking a convicted person through a prayer in which they receive Christ....I am asking for us to really look at this darker side of the issue and think through how to mitigate this type of thing...youths being "saved" then feeling like they weren't saved and needing to be "saved" again...it's a destructive cycle...the fact that some actually come out of it as strong Christians doesn't change the fact that something is broken here and in need of repair.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

I honestly think the greater problem is people who aren't saved but who think they are. It has essentially ruined the church in this modern time. But the Bible told us that would happen. We live in a very sad time in church history.

Somewhere along the line the 'meeting of the saints' turned into the 'meeting of the un-saints' as our zeal to pack our churches in the name of mega-church evangelism has allowed people to remain in the church who do not belong to Christ.

I wish more people were broken by their repeated failures as the youth described in a previous post. Thinking a person needs to get saved every time they fail is IMO a very manageable problem. Getting people to realize they aren't saved but who think they are is not a very easy problem to deal with at all.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

...I am asking for us to really look at this darker side of the issue and think through how to mitigate this type of thing...youths being "saved" then feeling like they weren't saved and needing to be "saved" again...it's a destructive cycle...

I disagree because it is at the point of utter failure, the complete inability to please God that a person can have a genuine encounter with the grace of God.

I have a couple of no-starts into the Christian faith myself. I finally came to the point where I cried out to God that I can't get there from here. I'm helpless. I can't do anything about the sin that holds me fast. What can I do? But that was exactly the realization I had to come to to fully know and embrace the knowledge of God's mercy and grace in salvation. That is why this is among the handful of my most favorite scriptures in the Bible:

"...the tax collector stood at a distance. He would not even look up to heaven, but beat his breast and said, ‘God, have mercy on me, a sinner.’

14 “I tell you that this man, rather than the other, went home justified before God." (Luke 18:13-14 NIV1984)

This is how I was saved. It is in effect the 'sinner's prayer'. But I know people who repeatedly recognize their failure but it never brings them to the honest truth that they will never, ever please God and they continue in that self effort to please him nevertheless, acting as their own judge as to the value of their efforts to be holy and be saved. And, strangely enough, that effort is usually expressed in an overemphasis on evangelism, or ministry in general, instead of on actually living out the faith themselves (probably best explained later). They're in for a big surprise on the Day of Judgment.

IMO, people who do not have this kind of 'end of yourself' experience are more likely to not understand the dynamics of how a person is saved and then lives for God and in turn misrepresent the process to others. I have talked to many of them in online forums. They profess Christ but their beliefs and doctrines about salvation and living for God show how much they really are unacquainted with the grace of God in salvation.