why I lean towards Calvinism...

[Christ_empowered]

I had a talk with another believer the other day about this...

lots of people "get religion," in some form or fashion. How many people are genuinely changed, even if it takes some time? some...not all.

Everything in Scripture seems to me to indicate that Jesus -knows- His sheep. Eventually, all of us respond to Him -- we know His voice.

The wheat and the tares would indicate to me that, for whatever reason, not only are false conversions a fact of organized Christian existence...

God has some sort of plan in allowing the wheat and the tares to grow up together, until harvest time.

false teachers, false prophets, even false Christs...

"many are called, but few are -chosen- ..." and "depart from me, ye workers of iniquity, for I never knew you!" both come to my mind as I reflect upon NT Scripture and God's mercy in sparing and saving His people.

To be perfectly honest...my experiences with many other Christians makes me lean towards the Calvinist end of things, too. "I love Jesus!" but they often hate...poor people, non-white people, immigrants, all that. Not always, but...wow. just...wow.

and...then there's my own, personal experiences. I got saved at age 28, facing serious charges (bond, by the grace of God). I'm now 37. I'll soon be going into year -10- of a real, growing (admittedly, imperfect) relationship with Jesus Christ. and...

did I mention the part where a brain scan at age 23 showed that I should be paralyzed and on a ventilator? I think its mostly from the punitive end of psychiatry (long story) and...yeah. lots of other stuff. deal is...

it isn't that I am "special," its just...like all genuine converts, I'm part of the "..peculiar people, set aside for a purpose...," which makes more sense to me than any other explanation. A hardcore Pentecostal once said that God spared me so I could, eventually, "make a decision for Christ..."

but I don't think that jives with Scripture or what's going on in the world, at all. People die every single day, in their messes, saved, doesn't matter. done. God showed mercy towards me, thank Goodness (!), but..

Isaiah 55:11 comes to mind. Leaving it up to anyone -- especially who I was, in that state of being -- to both "make a decision -for Christ- " and then somehow...I guess keep on making a daily decision for Christ, again and again, over and over...

strikes me more as a religion of developing an iron will than of dying to self, daily and putting off the old, putting on the new. maybe its because I was so pathetic and wretched, but..

no. I don't think its Scriptural. I thought about "prevenient grace," but...??? Kind of strikes me as "doctrine by committee" or "doctrine by compromise," more than anything else. I could easily be mistaken.

 

[Dorothy Mae]

I had a talk with another believer the other day about this...

lots of people "get religion," in some form or fashion. How many people are genuinely changed, even if it takes some time? some...not all.

Everything in Scripture seems to me to indicate that Jesus -knows- His sheep. Eventually, all of us respond to Him -- we know His voice.

The wheat and the tares would indicate to me that, for whatever reason, not only are false conversions a fact of organized Christian existence...

God has some sort of plan in allowing the wheat and the tares to grow up together, until harvest time.

false teachers, false prophets, even false Christs...

"many are called, but few are -chosen- ..." and "depart from me, ye workers of iniquity, for I never knew you!" both come to my mind as I reflect upon NT Scripture and God's mercy in sparing and saving His people.

To be perfectly honest...my experiences with many other Christians makes me lean towards the Calvinist end of things, too. "I love Jesus!" but they often hate...poor people, non-white people, immigrants, all that. Not always, but...wow. just...wow.

and...then there's my own, personal experiences. I got saved at age 28, facing serious charges (bond, by the grace of God). I'm now 37. I'll soon be going into year -10- of a real, growing (admittedly, imperfect) relationship with Jesus Christ. and...

did I mention the part where a brain scan at age 23 showed that I should be paralyzed and on a ventilator? I think its mostly from the punitive end of psychiatry (long story) and...yeah. lots of other stuff. deal is...

it isn't that I am "special," its just...like all genuine converts, I'm part of the "..peculiar people, set aside for a purpose...," which makes more sense to me than any other explanation. A hardcore Pentecostal once said that God spared me so I could, eventually, "make a decision for Christ..."

but I don't think that jives with Scripture or what's going on in the world, at all. People die every single day, in their messes, saved, doesn't matter. done. God showed mercy towards me, thank Goodness (!), but..

Isaiah 55:11 comes to mind. Leaving it up to anyone -- especially who I was, in that state of being -- to both "make a decision -for Christ- " and then somehow...I guess keep on making a daily decision for Christ, again and again, over and over...

strikes me more as a religion of developing an iron will than of dying to self, daily and putting off the old, putting on the new. maybe its because I was so pathetic and wretched, but..

no. I don't think its Scriptural. I thought about "prevenient grace," but...??? Kind of strikes me as "doctrine by committee" or "doctrine by compromise," more than anything else. I could easily be mistaken.

I wound urge you to consider what Calvinists believe about the character of God Himself before you abandon another way of looking at the matter.

Calvinism gives you a quick answer to your quandary but it does so at the expense of Gods character (and truth IMHO.) You’ll have a ready made answer but you have to accept that God is unjust and cruel. This will damage your closeness with Him. He who comes close to Him must believe he is morally good. This you won’t be able to do anymore.

 

[Christ_empowered]

that's a valid point, I think. I'll ponder...

 

[jasonc]

that's a valid point, I think. I'll ponder...

There are extremes ,

Yes the reformed have their issues.
Yet it is the. Arminist who has ordained woman and that lead to gay marriage etc .not all but it's not unusual.
No central accountabikty .the pastor dies the church folds.the view that God is second to mans well.

I lean reformed myself as my church is .it's not perfect but it has a mission

 

[Dorothy Mae]

There are extremes ,

Yes the reformed have their issues.
Yet it is the. Arminist who has ordained woman and that lead to gay marriage etc .not all but it's not unusual.
No central accountabikty .the pastor dies the church folds.the view that God is second to mans well.

I lean reformed myself as my church is .it's not perfect but it has a mission

Reformed theology at its heart accepts that God is unjust. Not the extremes, every level. Basic Calvinism attributes injustice and cruelty to God. It is accepted because the believer feels confident that they are predestined for Heaven so the injustice to others doesn’t matter. You can certainly defend your faith insisting this isn’t so but if I start to quote your position, it will demonstrate it is so. But prove me wrong, please.

 

[jasonc]

Reformed theology at its heart accepts that God is unjust. Not the extremes, every level. Basic Calvinism attributes injustice and cruelty to God. It is accepted because the believer feels confident that they are predestined for Heaven so the injustice to others doesn’t matter. You can certainly defend your faith insisting this isn’t so but if I start to quote your position, it will demonstrate it is so. But prove me wrong, please.

And I wonder why I left this place .

There is it is .I don't hold a hill you want to slay me on.

When I asked God to find me a church he sent me here.

It's reformed .they have a doctrine and a head church to keep it all accountable.locally that is rare .

If my brothers ,a big arminist one looses it's pastor as it ran through there within two decades and each time each time was a doctrinal shift in some ways .

It nearly closed each time .

Just church hunt when that happens ?
Of course my church can fail but in your rabid anti reformed view be sure not pull the sword out of you first .

 

[jasonc]

I had a talk with another believer the other day about this...

lots of people "get religion," in some form or fashion. How many people are genuinely changed, even if it takes some time? some...not all.

Everything in Scripture seems to me to indicate that Jesus -knows- His sheep. Eventually, all of us respond to Him -- we know His voice.

The wheat and the tares would indicate to me that, for whatever reason, not only are false conversions a fact of organized Christian existence...

God has some sort of plan in allowing the wheat and the tares to grow up together, until harvest time.

false teachers, false prophets, even false Christs...

"many are called, but few are -chosen- ..." and "depart from me, ye workers of iniquity, for I never knew you!" both come to my mind as I reflect upon NT Scripture and God's mercy in sparing and saving His people.

To be perfectly honest...my experiences with many other Christians makes me lean towards the Calvinist end of things, too. "I love Jesus!" but they often hate...poor people, non-white people, immigrants, all that. Not always, but...wow. just...wow.

and...then there's my own, personal experiences. I got saved at age 28, facing serious charges (bond, by the grace of God). I'm now 37. I'll soon be going into year -10- of a real, growing (admittedly, imperfect) relationship with Jesus Christ. and...

did I mention the part where a brain scan at age 23 showed that I should be paralyzed and on a ventilator? I think its mostly from the punitive end of psychiatry (long story) and...yeah. lots of other stuff. deal is...

it isn't that I am "special," its just...like all genuine converts, I'm part of the "..peculiar people, set aside for a purpose...," which makes more sense to me than any other explanation. A hardcore Pentecostal once said that God spared me so I could, eventually, "make a decision for Christ..."

but I don't think that jives with Scripture or what's going on in the world, at all. People die every single day, in their messes, saved, doesn't matter. done. God showed mercy towards me, thank Goodness (!), but..

Isaiah 55:11 comes to mind. Leaving it up to anyone -- especially who I was, in that state of being -- to both "make a decision -for Christ- " and then somehow...I guess keep on making a daily decision for Christ, again and again, over and over...

strikes me more as a religion of developing an iron will than of dying to self, daily and putting off the old, putting on the new. maybe its because I was so pathetic and wretched, but..

no. I don't think its Scriptural. I thought about "prevenient grace," but...??? Kind of strikes me as "doctrine by committee" or "doctrine by compromise," more than anything else. I could easily be mistaken.

I will pm you on this . It will become a debate on this .your home isn't far from my church district church where we have Presbytery each year . We have discussed that before .

 

[Dorothy Mae]

And I wonder why I left this place .

There is it is .I don't hold a hill you want to slay me on.

When I asked God to find me a church he sent me here.

It's reformed .they have a doctrine and a head church to keep it all accountable.locally that is rare .

If my brothers ,a big arminist one looses it's pastor as it ran through there within two decades and each time each time was a doctrinal shift in some ways .

It nearly closed each time .

Just church hunt when that happens ?
Of course my church can fail but in your rabid anti reformed view be sure not pull the sword out of you first .

I didn’t hope you could respond without personal insults. Calvin himself burned his opponents at the stake, it’s not to be expected his followers are more tolerant.

We needn’t pm as I think it will not bring anything good.

 

[jasonc]

I didn’t hope you could respond without personal insults. Calvin himself burned his opponents at the stake, it’s not to be expected his followers are more tolerant.

We needn’t pm as I think it will not bring anything good.

I wasn't going toward you and yes I know of the days before our first amendment.

Btw the church of England was reformed and that is why we had it out in the bill of rights .

I have debated this here and I'm not even reformed .I'm neither but the slander I saw made me take a break.

 

[jasonc]

My pastor spoke at my dad's funeral.my brother is a free will type,my dad was in his church,a coworker and my brothers church elder who led my dead to Jesus .my coworker planted seeds in my dad .all cried over my dad's death and rejoice he is in heaven .

Now we can't have arminist and reformed working together .back to arguing

 

[Dorothy Mae]

I wasn't going toward you and yes I know of the days before our first amendment.

????

Btw the church of England was reformed and that is why we had it out in the bill of rights .

I have debated this here and I'm not even reformed .I'm neither but the slander I saw made me take a break.

It’s not slander if it’s true. You cannot defend it so it’s likely true in your thinking. Unpleasant but true.

I offered that you present a defense and you just deal out insults. If it were untrue you could easily defend the truth. I provided examples and you could not address them.

 

[Dorothy Mae]

My pastor spoke at my dad's funeral.my brother is a free will type,my dad was in his church,a coworker and my brothers church elder who led my dead to Jesus .my coworker planted seeds in my dad .all cried over my dad's death and rejoice he is in heaven .

Now we can't have arminist and reformed working together .back to arguing

You are considering a theology I asked you to reconsider and said why. This isn’t arguing. If what I said is untrue, let them defend their position. That is not arguing.

 

[jasonc]

????

It’s not slander if it’s true. You cannot defend it so it’s likely true in your thinking. Unpleasant but true.

I offered that you present a defense and you just deal out insults. If it were untrue you could easily defend the truth. I provided examples and you could not address them.

Insults ?
Should I go change my churches views or just leave when I get fed there .

What I said about my county are facts .

I pass five churches to get to mine .

Two share the same parking lot nearly .
You suggest that I simply leave my church because it might present God as unjust.

I actually do ask .nope they don't .they see it differently .there are things I go through that only I can deal with alone unless it's vet who knows.

Things that I can easily walk away.yet God choose to have me go to a reformed church and it's not over but Im not dead from suicide

 

[jasonc]

You are considering a theology I asked you to reconsider and said why. This isn’t arguing. If what I said is untrue, let them defend their position. That is not arguing.

I simply don't care .

Do you know or think that you have it 100 percent correct ?

Should I exit any church over
Amil,pre mil ,post mil because I have seen hard core stances on that .if one is that way .pre mil .I can't teach amil .
What about acts 2?

My reformed church ,gasp .not required to be reformed to be member .

Nope .
Just only if I were to be ordained

 

[Dorothy Mae]

Insults ?
Should I go change my churches views or just leave when I get fed there .

What I said about my county are facts .

I pass five churches to get to mine .

Two share the same parking lot nearly .
You suggest that I simply leave my church because it might present God as unjust.

I actually do ask .nope they don't .they see it differently .there are things I go through that only I can deal with alone unless it's vet who knows.

Things that I can easily walk away.yet God choose to have me go to a reformed church and it's not over but Im not dead from suicide

I suggested no such thing. If you like your church and have no wish to think about the teachings but enjoy the sweet fellowship, by all means do so. But don’t answer rational posts with your love for the people. Just leave that to those who do consider these matters.

 

[jasonc]

I don't need you to educate me .I can simply ask my brother who debated it and has videos and we talk on it .

Don't assume because Im neither that I need to be in a Wesleyan church here or it's variants .I'm called to be where I am .it's not a coincidence.

 

[Dorothy Mae]

I simply don't care .

Do you know or think that you have it 100 percent correct ?

Should I exit any church over
Amil,pre mil ,post mil because I have seen hard core stances on that .if one is that way .pre mil .I can't teach amil .
What about acts 2?

My reformed church ,gasp .not required to be reformed to be member .

Nope .
Just only if I were to be ordained

Your response is irrational. It’s emotion pure. You like your fellowship so great! Not everyone enjoys thinking about these matters. It’s ok. But you are not at all answering my questions.

 

[Dorothy Mae]

I don't need you to educate me .I can simply ask my brother who debated it and has videos and we talk on it .

Don't assume because Im neither that I need to be in a Wesleyan church here or it's variants .I'm called to be where I am .it's not a coincidence.

Then ask your brother. I’m sure he’ll tell you what comforts you.

 

[jasonc]

I suggested no such thing. If you like your church and have no wish to think about the teachings but enjoy the sweet fellowship, by all means do so. But don’t answer rational posts with your love for the people. Just leave that to those who do consider these matters.

Ah yes be blind .ah yes because only the arminist have it 100

You mean we should have women elders ?

Wesley pushed this . Yup
I guess when it says if a man desires to be an elder he should be a man of one wife .

Wesley .whereby all modern arminists stem from started that .

But I'm willfully blind .

My church baptises babies .

I don't agree .but they do as do Lutherans .

Grey area .

The pentacostals get out there with everyone wanting to speak in tougues in service and each one at times that interpreted says worship God in the middle of service during a song .seen it .

The baptists and others can get so dry and independent that they have nothing for worship or a background .

I learned from my service .I can agree to serve and follow an order but not agree with it or agree with a command decision or philosophy.

That was why we were in Afghanistan or other things .

 

[Dorothy Mae]

Ah yes be blind .ah yes because only the arminist have it 100

You mean we should have women elders ?

Wesley pushed this . Yup
I guess when it says if a man desires to be an elder he should be a man of one wife .

Wesley .whereby all modern arminists stem from started that .

But I'm willfully blind .

My church baptises babies .

I don't agree .but they do as do Lutherans .

Grey area .

The pentacostals get out there with everyone wanting to speak in tougues in service and each one at times that interpreted says worship God in the middle of service during a song .seen it .

The baptists and others can get so dry and independent that they have nothing for worship or a background .

I learned from my service .I can agree to serve and follow an order but not agree with it or agree with a command decision or philosophy.

That was why we were in Afghanistan or other things .

This is way off the discussion