Bible Study Why Is God Silent When I've Prayed?

[Tenchi]

"Finally, brethren, farewell. Be perfect, be of good comfort, be of one mind, live in peace; and the God of love and peace shall be with you." (2 Cor 13:11)

2 Corinthians 13:11 (ESV)
11 Finally, brothers, rejoice. Aim for restoration, comfort one another, agree with one another, live in peace; and the God of love and peace will be with you.

2 Corinthians 13:11 (NASB)
11 Finally, brethren, rejoice, be made complete, be comforted, be like-minded, live in peace; and the God of love and peace will be with you.

"Perfect" in 2 Corinthians 13:11 does not mean without flaw, maximally possessing a particular skill or trait. As these two alternative translations of the verse indicate, "perfect" in Greek is "katartizo," meaning to prepare, or complete, or get ready. The idea is that of full preparation or training, not a flawlessly, maximal state of affairs (i.e. perfection). In any case, once again, Paul is telling born-again people ("finally, brethren") to "be made complete" and to "live in peace." Why, if they are sinlessly-perfect, would Paul tell them to do such things? Being perfect, they would already be doing so, wouldn't they? Yes, it seems to me, they would. Here, too, then, Paul puts a big stick in the spokes of the wheel of your sinless perfection doctrine.

"Let us therefore, as many as be perfect, be thus minded: and if in anything ye be otherwise minded, God shall reveal even this unto you." (Phil 3:15)

In this instance, as well, the word "perfect" (telios in Greek) doesn't mean "flawless" but "having reached its end," or "mature." Taking Paul to mean literally "without flaw," contradicts his statement only a few verses prior where he flatly states that he had not already become perfect (Philippians 3:12). By his own admission, being fully spiritually mature - perfect - was not something to which Paul had attained but was "pressing on" toward it. But this totally shoots down the idea that being born-again means sinless perfection. So, here, too, your proof-text for your false doctrine is actually communicating the opposite of what you're trying to use it to establish.

"Unto the pure all things are pure: but unto them that are defiled and unbelieving is nothing pure; but even their mind and conscience is defiled.
They profess that they know God; but in works they deny him, being abominable, and disobedient, and unto every good work reprobate." (Titus 1:15-16)

No sinless perfection doctrine taught here...

"Forasmuch then as Christ hath suffered for us in the flesh, arm yourselves likewise with the same mind: for he that hath suffered in the flesh hath ceased from sin;" (1 Peter 4:1)

Where's the sinless perfection doctrine? Peter says nothing about such a thing in this verse. But he does enjoin right behavior in the verse, which is totally unnecessary for those he's addressing who, in your view, would have been already sinlessly-perfect. And we know Peter is speaking directly to born-again people because he says as much in the opening remarks of his letter:

1 Peter 1:1-3
1 Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ, To those who reside as aliens, scattered throughout Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia, and Bithynia, who are chosen
2 according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, by the sanctifying work of the Spirit, to obey Jesus Christ and be sprinkled with His blood: May grace and peace be yours in the fullest measure.
3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who according to His great mercy has caused us to be born again to a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead,

Peter's words, then, were not aimed at any but these brethren of the faith, who, like Peter, had been "born again to a living hope" and would have been (according to your thinking) enjoying sinless perfection. But if they were sinlessly-perfect, Peter's words (and his entire letter, really) was quite unnecessary - akin to telling a bachelor that he's unmarried, or a professional musician to play music. I don't think this makes the least bit of sense and requires denying the natural and obvious purpose, and implication, of Peter's words.

Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.” (1 John 3:4-9)

“We know that whosoever is born of God sinneth not; but he that is begotten of God keepeth himself, and that wicked one toucheth him not.” (1 John 5:18)

As you've been shown many times before on this forum, and as so much of the rest of Scripture prevents you from thinking, these verses are not teaching the sinless perfection of the believer.

1 John 3:4-9 (NASB)
4 Everyone who practices sin also practices lawlessness; and sin is lawlessness.
5 You know that He appeared in order to take away sins; and in Him there is no sin.
6 No one who abides in Him sins; no one who sins has seen Him or knows Him.
7 Little children, make sure no one deceives you; the one who practices righteousness is righteous, just as He is righteous;
8 the one who practices sin is of the devil; for the devil has sinned from the beginning. The Son of God appeared for this purpose, to destroy the works of the devil.
9 No one who is born of God practices sin, because His seed abides in him; and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.
1 John 3:4-9 (ESV)
4 Everyone who makes a practice of sinning also practices lawlessness; sin is lawlessness.
5 You know that he appeared in order to take away sins, and in him there is no sin.
6 No one who abides in him keeps on sinning; no one who keeps on sinning has either seen him or known him.
7 Little children, let no one deceive you. Whoever practices righteousness is righteous, as he is righteous.
8 Whoever makes a practice of sinning is of the devil, for the devil has been sinning from the beginning. The reason the Son of God appeared was to destroy the works of the devil.
9 No one born of God makes a practice of sinning, for God’s seed abides in him, and he cannot keep on sinning because he has been born of God.

John's thinking expressed in this passage is not that a Christian will never, or can never, sin - many other parts of Scripture dissolve such an idea - but that the person who persists in sin over time, who makes a practice of sin without compunction, reveals that they are not "born of God." This is as much as an honest, straightforward reading of John's words, in concordance with the rest of the NT, allow - particularly in light of his opening statement of his letter:

1 John 1:8-10
8 If we say we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.
9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
10 If we say we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.

Continued below.

 

[Tenchi]

Hopeful wrote:

"He wrote the letters to both support the true converts and separate the posers from among the true.
Sinners are neither in Christ or "believing"."

This a bald-faced deflection of my point.

Hopeful wrote:

"He has indeed been (re)made perfect.
And he can remain that way, thanks be to God !"

Right, not thanks to the perfectly-obedient action of the believer.

Hopeful wrote:

"But I do know what perfect obedience to God is.
Why don't you ?"

No, you don't. You have no idea, actually. You are merely pretending to such knowledge, which is why you've deflected again in your answer here. Nonetheless, I'm very curious to hear what your conception of perfect obedience to God is, what it looks like exactly, how fully and precisely in thought, word and deed one must obey God in order to have done so perfectly.

Hopeful wrote:

"By removing the ways, you can remove the possibility.
But as you have already admitted above that we are (re)made perfectly, your back-track smells to high heaven."

You're the one being "smelly," here. I was very careful in describing the believer's spiritual position in Christ and that it did not depend upon the born-again person's conduct, but upon the perfect atoning work and person of their Savior. There is no "back-track" in my remarks, only your misunderstanding and misrepresentation of my words. What is true of a born-again person's spiritual position in Christ is by no means automatically true of their condition, their daily living. This is made crystal clear in the many verses I cited at the beginning of post #18.

Hopeful wrote:

"I was water baptized into God after my true repentance from sin.
You are in essence admitting you have yet to repent of sin and get washed of your past sins by the blood of Christ at water baptism in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of past sins.
The horribly imperfect will receive no mercy from God on the day of judgement.
Just a fair judgement."

??? "True repentance"? And this is what, exactly? Where is this phrase used in Scripture?; not merely repentance, but TRUE repentance.

I have repented of sin many times throughout my life. And as God continues to expose ever-subtler forms of sin in me, I will repent again. If you think there is a single, once-for-all "true repentance" from all your sin that you can effect, you have not understood God's word in a profound degree. You have no idea of the depths of sin in your own life, the subtle, secret forms of sin that exist within you. Only God can show them to you, which He does throughout the course of your life as a vital part of the process of your spiritual growth.

You are "horribly imperfect" just like everybody else, which is precisely why you so desperately need (as we all do) the life of Christ in the Person of the Holy Spirit, imparting to you his perfect righteousness. Clothed in Christ's perfection, God accepts me and ONLY on this basis does He do so. My standing with God, my adoption by Him, then, has nothing to do with my conduct.

So, no, you have not offered a "fair judgment" at all. You have simply spouted falsehood of the most destructive kind, born of deep pride, and enormous blindness to truth. This is the "fair judgment" of God's truth, given to us in Scripture, upon your false doctrine.

1 John 1:8-10
8 If we say we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.
9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
10 If we say we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.

Hopeful wrote:

"Your POV is defeatist."

My "POV" is carefully biblical. As I've amply shown.

Hopeful wrote:

"Tell that to Jesus."

??? LOL! I don't have to; he tells it to me! In the Bible he inspired. See above.

Hopeful wrote:

"You ignore the effects of rebirth.
The sin-steeped creatures have bene crucified and buried with Christ.
The new creature was raised with Christ to walk in newness of life.
Someone for got to tell you the new creature, born of God's seed, is as holy as Jesus' first Son is."

No, I don't ignore the effects of a person's spiritual "second birth." I just understand it in the fullness of the NT's description of it. See above.

The sinner is saved by being united with Christ in his death, burial and resurrection by the Holy Spirit, but this imparts to the saved person a spiritual position in him, clothed in his righteousness, but not an utterly transformed daily condition. No man clothed in a bear skin coat becomes an actual bear. In the same way, no man (or woman), clothed in Christ becomes him, perfect and divine. That's deeply blasphemous thinking.

Someone has been teaching you deeply false doctrine, deceiving you into a subtle, prideful and blasphemous equality with God.

Hopeful wrote:

"I am glad he wrote of the perfection he had yet to attain in both verses eleven, (the resurrection of the dead), and verse twenty-one. (the glorified body)."

This is a gross misrepresentation of Paul's words and meaning. Nowhere in the passage or its immediate context is there any ground for asserting that what he meant by "not being already made perfect" was that he had yet to be resurrected into a glorified body. Here's what Paul's referring to:

Philippians 3:7-10
7 But whatever gain I had, I counted as loss for the sake of Christ.
8 Indeed, I count everything as loss because of the surpassing worth of knowing Christ Jesus my Lord. For his sake I have suffered the loss of all things and count them as rubbish, in order that I may gain Christ
9 and be found in him, not having a righteousness of my own that comes from the law, but that which comes through faith in Christ, the righteousness from God that depends on faith—
10 that I may know him and the power of his resurrection, and may share his sufferings, becoming like him ...

When Paul, then, wrote the following,

Philippians 3:14-16
14 I press on toward the goal for the prize of the upward call of God in Christ Jesus.
he was not speaking of the resurrection of his body, but of entering more fully into the "call of God in Christ Jesus," which is to say into greater spiritual maturity, which he had already described as "knowing Christ," "gaining Christ," "being found in him and his righteousness," "sharing in his sufferings," and "becoming like him." It was in all these things Paul had not yet been "perfected," or had yet fully attained.

Hopeful wrote:

"If a sinner turns from sin, he sins no more.
If he sins again, his repentance from sin was a lie to God."

Nope.

1 Corinthians 3:1-3
1 And I, brethren, could not speak to you as to spiritual men, but as to men of flesh, as to infants in Christ.
2 I gave you milk to drink, not solid food; for you were not yet able to receive it. Indeed, even now you are not yet able,
3 for you are still fleshly. For since there is jealousy and strife among you, are you not fleshly, and are you not walking like mere men?

1 Corinthians 3:11-15
11 For no man can lay a foundation other than the one which is laid, which is Jesus Christ.
12 Now if any man builds on the foundation with gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, straw,
13 each man's work will become evident; for the day will show it because it is to be revealed with fire, and the fire itself will test the quality of each man's work.
14 If any man's work which he has built on it remains, he will receive a reward.
15 If any man's work is burned up, he will suffer loss; but he himself will be saved, yet so as through fire.
Revelation 3:14-19
14 "To the angel of the church in Laodicea write: The Amen, the faithful and true Witness, the Beginning of the creation of God, says this:
15 'I know your deeds, that you are neither cold nor hot; I wish that you were cold or hot.
16 'So because you are lukewarm, and neither hot nor cold, I will spit you out of My mouth.
17 'Because you say, "I am rich, and have become wealthy, and have need of nothing," and you do not know that you are wretched and miserable and poor and blind and naked,
18 I advise you to buy from Me gold refined by fire so that you may become rich, and white garments so that you may clothe yourself, and that the shame of your nakedness will not be revealed; and eye salve to anoint your eyes so that you may see.
19 'Those whom I love, I reprove and discipline; therefore be zealous and repent. (See: Hebrews 12:5-11.)

 

[Hopeful 2]

Why did Jesus say this? At the time he spoke these words, hadn't the last 1500 years or so of the Israelites trying to be obedient to God's law shown that they were utterly incapable of doing so? Yes, it had. In fact, it was because this was so, because perfection was totally beyond the Chosen People - and all other people, too - that Jesus had come to die, once for all, in atoning sacrifice for their sins. But he hadn't yet done so when he spoke the words you've quoted above from his Sermon on the Mount. Why, then, would he issue such a command when he knew that the long history of his Jewish audience had shown it was impossible to fulfill?

Because it was possible, and Jesus was the living proof.

Until he did for all lost sinners what he had come to do on the cross and through his sacrifice make a way for them to be fully, perfectly justified in himself, his command was just "rubbing salt in the wound." But this was exactly his purpose; he wanted to reinforce to his listeners just how in need of a "new and living way" they were and to make them hungry for something better: Redemption and perfection in Himself. Christ's words in Matthew 5:48 were not, then, ever issued as something the Jews were to achieve by their obedience but by being clothed in him who was the new and living Way (John 14:6; Hebrews 10:19-22) and in all his holy perfection.

Aren't you glad we can all be perfect, as Jesus was perfect, now ?

"Made perfect in one," that is, in Christ, not in or through obedience to God's law. How have you missed this? Our perfection is in a Person, not our performance.

Yep, without being "in Him", we stay imperfect.

And where does Paul speak of sinless perfection in this verse? Nowhere. All he indicated was that a born-again person is freed from the power of sin, from its mastery; he never indicated that such freedom must produce sinless perfection. Why was Paul writing these things to born-again people if they were, by virtue of being so, incapable of committing sin? He even accused them of sin, though he described them as united with Christ in his death, burial and resurrection and thus made free of sin's power!

Verse 7 declares it.
"For he that is dead is freed from sin.” (Rom. 6:7)

Romans 6:1-4
1 What shall we say then? Are we to continue in sin that grace may abound?
2 By no means! How can we who died to sin still live in it?
3 Do you not know that all of us who have been baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into his death?
4 We were buried therefore with him by baptism into death, in order that, just as Christ was raised from the dead by the glory of the Father, we too might walk in newness of life.
Again, why write such things to those who, united to Christ, would (as you believe) therefore have been utterly unable to sin any more? Well, clearly, Paul did not believe this at all. Though united with Christ and freed from sin's power, the believers at Rome were still able to sin and were doing so - hence his words in the quotation above. Once more, how have you missed this? It's so obvious! The very verses you're using to defend your error actually make the case against your view.

He writes it for those still searching for the way to be free of sin.
The ways and means of prefect obedience to God.
Those who love God with all their heart, soul, and mind always have the option of leaving the faith, but they won't.
God's seed, from which we are reborn, can't bring forth the fruit of the devil.

No sinless perfection mentioned in this verse, either... Though, Paul had just described his own battle with sin as a born-again believer:

What he described was his plight at not being able to live according to God by keeping the Law.
It was his recollection of his pre-conversion life.

Romans 7:15-24
15 For I do not understand my own actions. For I do not do what I want, but I do the very thing I hate.
16 Now if I do what I do not want, I agree with the law, that it is good.
17 So now it is no longer I who do it, but sin that dwells within me.
18 For I know that nothing good dwells in me, that is, in my flesh. For I have the desire to do what is right, but not the ability to carry it out.
19 For I do not do the good I want, but the evil I do not want is what I keep on doing.
20 Now if I do what I do not want, it is no longer I who do it, but sin that dwells within me.
21 So I find it to be a law that when I want to do right, evil lies close at hand.
22 For I delight in the law of God, in my inner being,
23 but I see in my members another law waging war against the law of my mind and making me captive to the law of sin that dwells in my members.

Did you happen to notice that Rom 8:2 answers his lament from 7:23 ?
"For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death." (Rom 8:2)
Pointing again to the fact some of Rom 7 was from Paul's past.

24 Wretched man that I am! Who will deliver me from this body of death?

Did you happen to notice that this lament had already been answered in Rom 6:6 ?
"Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin." (Rom 6:6)

It was on the heels of Paul's admission to this struggle that he wrote what he did in Romans 8:1. There was a way to live beyond the struggle he endured: "walk after the Spirit" (Galatians 5:16, 25); but though Paul knew there was a way to freedom from the mastery of the flesh in Christ, he did not himself enjoy perfect, permanent freedom from sin. His own experience was that, though a servant of God, his flesh could still drive him to do what he didn't want to do. And so, Paul wrote in another letter:

Philippians 3:12-14
12 Not that I have already obtained this or am already perfect, but I press on to make it my own, because Christ Jesus has made me his own.
13 Brothers, I do not consider that I have made it my own. But one thing I do: forgetting what lies behind and straining forward to what lies ahead,
14 I press on toward the goal for the prize of the upward call of God in Christ Jesus.

Why did you miss what he had not yet attained ?
"If by any means I might attain unto the resurrection of the dead." (Phil 3:11)
His vessel is all that wasn't yet perfect.
His words in Phil 3:21 testify of that..."Who shall change our vile body, that it may be fashioned like unto his glorious body, ..."
Why too did he reference those who were perfect in Phil 3:15 ?..."Let us therefore, as many as be perfect, be thus minded: and if in any thing ye be otherwise minded, God shall reveal even this unto you."

Nothing could state more clearly that Paul had not arrived at sinless perfection, but was in process toward the goal of the upward call of God in Christ Jesus - just as all born-again believers are.

If it is an unachievable goal, why strive for it ?
Your fight against it bares your hate for the very idea of it

 

[Hopeful 2]

Hopeful wrote:
"He wrote the letters to both support the true converts and separate the posers from among the true.
Sinners are neither in Christ or "believing"."
This a bald-faced deflection of my point.

How so ?
No man can serve two masters, (Matt 6:24), no servant of sin, (John 9:34), can serve God.

Hopeful wrote:
"He has indeed been (re)made perfect.
And he can remain that way, thanks be to God !"
Right, not thanks to the perfectly-obedient action of the believer.

I am glad you are at least willing to admit it happens.

Hopeful wrote:
"But I do know what perfect obedience to God is.
Why don't you ?"
No, you don't. You have no idea, actually. You are merely pretending to such knowledge, which is why you've deflected again in your answer here. Nonetheless, I'm very curious to hear what your conception of perfect obedience to God is, what it looks like exactly, how fully and precisely in thought, word and deed one must obey God in order to have done so perfectly.

Saying it and proving it are quite different things.

Hopeful wrote
"By removing the ways, you can remove the possibility.
But as you have already admitted above that we are (re)made perfectly, your back-track smells to high heaven."
You're the one being "smelly," here. I was very careful in describing the believer's spiritual position in Christ and that it did not depend upon the born-again person's conduct, but upon the perfect atoning work and person of their Savior. There is no "back-track" in my remarks, only your misunderstanding and misrepresentation of my words. What is true of a born-again person's spiritual position in Christ is by no means automatically true of their condition, their daily living. This is made crystal clear in the many verses I cited at the beginning of post #18.

Your wish seems to be that the imperfect can claim kinship with God.
Not going to happen.

Hopeful wrote:
"I was water baptized into God after my true repentance from sin.
You are in essence admitting you have yet to repent of sin and get washed of your past sins by the blood of Christ at water baptism in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of past sins.
The horribly imperfect will receive no mercy from God on the day of judgement.
Just a fair judgement."
??? "True repentance"? And this is what, exactly? Where is this phrase used in Scripture?; not merely repentance, but TRUE repentance.

A true repentance is a real, permanent, turn from what ever is repented of.
In my case, I repented of sin.

I have repented of sin many times throughout my life. And as God continues to expose ever-subtler forms of sin in me, I will repent again. If you think there is a single, once-for-all "true repentance" from all your sin that you can effect, you have not understood God's word in a profound degree. You have no idea of the depths of sin in your own life, the subtle, secret forms of sin that exist within you. Only God can show them to you, which He does throughout the course of your life as a vital part of the process of your spiritual growth.

Your second repentance exposed the first repentance as a lie to God.

You are "horribly imperfect" just like everybody else, which is precisely why you so desperately need (as we all do) the life of Christ in the Person of the Holy Spirit, imparting to you his perfect righteousness. Clothed in Christ's perfection, God accepts me and ONLY on this basis does He do so. My standing with God, my adoption by Him, then, has nothing to do with my conduct.

If accepting Christ shows no improvement is ones life, what was the point ?

So, no, you have not offered a "fair judgment" at all. You have simply spouted falsehood of the most destructive kind, born of deep pride, and enormous blindness to truth. This is the "fair judgment" of God's truth, given to us in Scripture, upon your false doctrine.
1 John 1:8-10

In 1 John 1, verses 6, 8, and 10, address those walking in darkness-sin.
Verses 5, 7, and 9 address those walking in the light-God.
John juxtaposes the one against the other to illustrate how far apart one is from the other.
(Paul uses the same method in Tom 8 to show the difference between those walking in the flesh and those walking in the Spirit).
One can't walk in both.

Hopeful wrote:
"Your POV is defeatist."
My "POV" is carefully biblical. As I've amply shown.

Nobody can really defend sin using God's word.

Hopeful wrote:
"Tell that to Jesus."
??? LOL! I don't have to; he tells it to me! In the Bible he inspired. See above.

You are accusing Jesus of being a sinner.

Hopeful wrote:
"You ignore the effects of rebirth.
The sin-steeped creatures have bene crucified and buried with Christ.
The new creature was raised with Christ to walk in newness of life.
Someone for got to tell you the new creature, born of God's seed, is as holy as Jesus' first Son is."
No, I don't ignore the effects of a person's spiritual "second birth." I just understand it in the fullness of the NT's description of it. See above.

Your understanding accommodates wickedness.
Your understanding is erroneous.

The sinner is saved by being united with Christ in his death, burial and resurrection by the Holy Spirit, but this imparts to the saved person a spiritual position in him, clothed in his righteousness, but not an utterly transformed daily condition. No man clothed in a bear skin coat becomes an actual bear. In the same way, no man (or woman), clothed in Christ becomes him, perfect and divine. That's deeply blasphemous thinking.

Your sinner is saved from everything but sin.
He is lost.

Someone has been teaching you deeply false doctrine, deceiving you into a subtle, prideful and blasphemous equality with God.

Doctrines that refute accommodations for sin are not false.
They are of God.

Hopeful wrote:
"I am glad he wrote of the perfection he had yet to attain in both verses eleven, (the resurrection of the dead), and verse twenty-one. (the glorified body)."
This is a gross misrepresentation of Paul's words and meaning. Nowhere in the passage or its immediate context is there any ground for asserting that what he meant by "not being already made perfect" was that he had yet to be resurrected into a glorified body. Here's what Paul's referring to:
Philippians 3:7-10
7 But whatever gain I had, I counted as loss for the sake of Christ.
8 Indeed, I count everything as loss because of the surpassing worth of knowing Christ Jesus my Lord. For his sake I have suffered the loss of all things and count them as rubbish, in order that I may gain Christ
9 and be found in him, not having a righteousness of my own that comes from the law, but that which comes through faith in Christ, the righteousness from God that depends on faith—
10 that I may know him and the power of his resurrection, and may share his sufferings, becoming like him ...

I believe I have already explained that once.

When Paul, then, wrote the following,
Philippians 3:14-16
14 I press on toward the goal for the prize of the upward call of God in Christ Jesus.
he was not speaking of the resurrection of his body, but of entering more fully into the "call of God in Christ Jesus," which is to say into greater spiritual maturity, which he had already described as "knowing Christ," "gaining Christ," "being found in him and his righteousness," "sharing in his sufferings," and "becoming like him." It was in all these things Paul had not yet been "perfected," or had yet fully attained.

We, like Paul, press on to the resurrection of the dead, and a glorified body.

Hopeful wrote:
"If a sinner turns from sin, he sins no more.
If he sins again, his repentance from sin was a lie to God."
Nope.

Yep.

19 'Those whom I love, I reprove and discipline; therefore be zealous and repent. (See: Hebrews 12:5-11.)

If you want to keep walking in the dark, go right on ahead.
I choose to follow in the foot-steps of Jesus.
You should heed my Lord's words in Luke 6:46..."And why call ye me, Lord, Lord, and do not the things which I say?"
You have offered Him your answer in your prior posts.

 

[Tenchi]

Because it was possible, and Jesus was the living proof.

Jesus was God incarnate. He was no mere, sin-cursed human being. Thus, your comparison here is entirely inappropriate.

Aren't you glad we can all be perfect, as Jesus was perfect, now ?

Deflection.

Yep, without being "in Him", we stay imperfect.

And another facile deflection.

Verse 7 declares it.
"For he that is dead is freed from sin.” (Rom. 6:7)

Written to those who were already born again. Freed from the power of sin doesn't equate to perfectly sinless - as Paul pointed out at the beginning of the chapter.

He writes it for those still searching for the way to be free of sin.

He wrote to those who were his fellow brothers and sisters in the Lord, born-again children of God. To them he wrote, "What shall we say, then? Shall we continue in sin that grace may abound?" And just to be clear that he was writing to fellow believers particularly, he wrote also:

Romans 6:3
3 Or do you not know that all of us who have been baptized into Christ Jesus have been baptized into His death?

Paul includes himself in the things he described of the Christians at Rome, clearly excluding the non-believer, or the "still searching," as his intended audience. What he wrote concerning the abuse of God's grace at the beginning of the chapter, he wrote to fellow Christians who you say simply cannot do such a thing. As far as I can see, you're in direct conflict with apostle Paul.

The ways and means of prefect obedience to God.
Those who love God with all their heart, soul, and mind always have the option of leaving the faith, but they won't.
God's seed, from which we are reborn, can't bring forth the fruit of the devil.

This I've shown to be entirely false and simply asserting it again does nothing to mitigate my rebuttal of it.

What he described was his plight at not being able to live according to God by keeping the Law.
It was his recollection of his pre-conversion life.

Nope.

Romans 7:4-6
4 Therefore, my brethren, you also (that is, besides Paul himself) were made to die to the Law through the body of Christ, so that you might be joined to another, to Him who was raised from the dead, in order that we might bear fruit for God.

Paul isn't describing a past law-centered state-of-affairs here. He's describing what is true both of his readers and himself as "new creatures in Christ."

5 For while we were in the flesh, the sinful passions, which were aroused by the Law, were at work in the members of our body to bear fruit for death.
6 But now we have been released from the Law, having died to that by which we were bound, so that we serve in newness of the Spirit and not in oldness of the letter.

Here is the context for what follows in chapter 7. Is Paul describing pre-conversion, Jewish law-keeping here? No. He goes on to describe the death-dealing effect of God's law upon fleshly creatures and then to explain that as the person he described at the beginning of the chapter, he had two warring "laws" within himself from which war only the Spirit could free him (Romans 8:1-14). So, no, Paul is not, in Romans 7, describing his sometimes-failing struggle with his flesh as an unconverted person but as a born-again child of God. And this fact completely demolishes your sinless perfection doctrine.

Did you happen to notice that Rom 8:2 answers his lament from 7:23 ?
"For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death." (Rom 8:2)
Pointing again to the fact some of Rom 7 was from Paul's past.

Yes, I have noticed. Anyone who has studied Paul's letter to the Romans has done the same. It is simply false, though, to say Romans 8:1 somehow confirms that Paul was describing an unconverted condition in Romans 7. See above.

Why did you miss what he had not yet attained ?
"If by any means I might attain unto the resurrection of the dead." (Phil 3:11)
His vessel is all that wasn't yet perfect.
His words in Phil 3:21 testify of that..."Who shall change our vile body, that it may be fashioned like unto his glorious body, ..."
Why too did he reference those who were perfect in Phil 3:15 ?..."Let us therefore, as many as be perfect, be thus minded: and if in any thing ye be otherwise minded, God shall reveal even this unto you."

All of this simply ignores what I explained rather than deals with it seriously and directly. You're just deflecting. Address what I wrote reasonably, demonstrating how it's in error from the text, and then maybe I'll make the effort to respond to your questions here.

If it is an unachievable goal, why strive for it ?
Your fight against it bares your hate for the very idea of it

Well, you're entitled to your opinion. But it's just an opinion.

Perfection, which only God possesses, is necessarily unattainable for us, which is why Jesus had to die in our place and why God must impute his perfect righteousness to us. We are, in our position in Jesus, clothed in him, already forensically "perfect." We could not be God's otherwise. What is there to "achieve," then? Believers simply progressively learn to live out what is true of them already in Christ, utterly secure in his perfection, not their own.

Continued below.

 

[Tenchi]

How so ?
No man can serve two masters, (Matt 6:24), no servant of sin, (John 9:34), can serve God.

Look again more carefully at my point(s). Actually address them instead of just posing more rabbit-trail questions.

Saying it and proving it are quite different things.

That was exactly my point to you. You're the one making the claim to know what perfect obedience to God looks like in thought, word and deed. So, tell us all what such perfection is, what it looks like practically and in detail. That you haven't yet done so, being as confident in your knowledge of perfection as you have made yourself out to be, suggests you're more noise than substance about what sinless perfection is in actual, practical daily living.

Your wish seems to be that the imperfect can claim kinship with God.
Not going to happen.

Just more deflection and rabbit-trailing.

A true repentance is a real, permanent, turn from what ever is repented of.
In my case, I repented of sin.

This is a rather circular, semi-tautological way of thinking: I truly turn from my sin by repenting and I truly repent by turning from my sin. What does this "turn" look like, exactly? What does it entail? Why are born-again people told to repent in the New Testament who you say cannot sin and therefore cannot ever require repentance?

Your second repentance exposed the first repentance as a lie to God.

No. You assume my repentance is of the same thing each time, but this is not the case. It is impossible, for reasons I already explained, for anyone to repent of all their sin at one time. All they can do is repent of what they presently see of their sin that God has revealed to them. But as they walk with Him, His light penetrates ever-deeper into their life and exposes more from which they must repent. And so, repentance is an on-going feature of Christian living.

If accepting Christ shows no improvement is ones life, what was the point ?

Strawman. I have never indicated that no improvement is proper or normal as an effect of accepting Christ.

You are accusing Jesus of being a sinner.

Strawman. I said nothing about the character of Jesus but of his words to me about mine (and yours).

Your understanding accommodates wickedness.
Your understanding is erroneous.

Nope. Strawman.

Your sinner is saved from everything but sin.
He is lost.

Nope. Strawman.

I believe I have already explained that once.

You have offered your view, which I showed to be in error.

We, like Paul, press on to the resurrection of the dead, and a glorified body.

Nope. I already explained why this is false and nothing you've offered in reply comes anywhere close to securing your view or refuting mine.

If you want to keep walking in the dark, go right on ahead.
I choose to follow in the foot-steps of Jesus.
You should heed my Lord's words in Luke 6:46..."And why call ye me, Lord, Lord, and do not the things which I say?"
You have offered Him your answer in your prior posts.

Right back at you. As far as I'm concerned, from what I see in God's word, YOU are the one "walking in darkness." And what terrible darkness it is!

You cannot follow in the footsteps of the one whose life and truth you deny.

You should follow your own advice about Christ's words in Luke 6:46.

I have offered you his truth in my prior posts, not the careless contortions you've put forward.

 

[Hopeful 2]

Jesus was God incarnate. He was no mere, sin-cursed human being. Thus, your comparison here is entirely inappropriate.

Then Heb. 4:15 is pointless.
He was our example of how to walk in the Spirit instead of in the "flesh".
John wrote..."He that saith he abideth in him ought himself also so to walk, even as he walked." (1 John 2:6)
Can't you say you abide in Him ?

Deflection.

Your refusal to answer indicates a lot.

And another facile deflection.

Aren't you "in Him" ?

Written to those who were already born again. Freed from the power of sin doesn't equate to perfectly sinless - as Paul pointed out at the beginning of the chapter.

It was written for anyone who later would read it.
As those who are reborn of God's seed cannot commit sin, (1 John 3:9), I adjure you to permanently turn from sin and get reborn.
As Paul wrote, "Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?" (Rom 6:16)
Who do you serve ?

He wrote to those who were his fellow brothers and sisters in the Lord, born-again children of God. To them he wrote, "What shall we say, then? Shall we continue in sin that grace may abound?" And just to be clear that he was writing to fellow believers particularly, he wrote also:Romans 6:3 3 Or do you not know that all of us who have been baptized into Christ Jesus have been baptized into His death?

The answer is no, we do not "continue in sin".
Then he explains how to do it.
Kill the old man and be raised with Christ to walk in newness of life.

Paul includes himself in the things he described of the Christians at Rome, clearly excluding the non-believer, or the "still searching," as his intended audience. What he wrote concerning the abuse of God's grace at the beginning of the chapter, he wrote to fellow Christians who you say simply cannot do such a thing. As far as I can see, you're in direct conflict with apostle Paul.

You read a lot of things into it that are not there.
Had your accused abusers rejected his letter, grace, and wisdom, they would have been unbelievers.
They would have been servants of sin. (John 8:34)

This I've shown to be entirely false and simply asserting it again does nothing to mitigate my rebuttal of it.

Were that true, then Jesus is the Lord of sinners.
Even though sinners are the servants of sin.
So is it your premise that Jesus has no servants ?

Nope.

The fruit of your POV is sin.
Mine is freedom from sin.

Romans 7:4-6
4 Therefore, my brethren, you also (that is, besides Paul himself) were made to die to the Law through the body of Christ, so that you might be joined to another, to Him who was raised from the dead, in order that we might bear fruit for God.
Paul isn't describing a past law-centered state-of-affairs here. He's describing what is true both of his readers and himself as "new creatures in Christ."

Just as I have been saying
It is a narrative of his preconversion failed attempts at following the Law for his righteousness.

5 For while we were in the flesh, the sinful passions, which were aroused by the Law, were at work in the members of our body to bear fruit for death.
6 But now we have been released from the Law, having died to that by which we were bound, so that we serve in newness of the Spirit and not in oldness of the letter.

I am glad you saw the "were in the flesh" so you can be sure he isn't in the flesh anymore.

Here is the context for what follows in chapter 7. Is Paul describing pre-conversion, Jewish law-keeping here? No. He goes on to describe the death-dealing effect of God's law upon fleshly creatures and then to explain that as the person he described at the beginning of the chapter, he had two warring "laws" within himself from which war only the Spirit could free him (Romans 8:1-14). So, no, Paul is not, in Romans 7, describing his sometimes-failing struggle with his flesh as an unconverted person but as a born-again child of God. And this fact completely demolishes your sinless perfection doctrine.

Rom 7 is a sort of mid-way narrative of Paul's life.
It describes his past laments while in the flesh/Law keeper, and then his transformation to the present.

Yes, I have noticed. Anyone who has studied Paul's letter to the Romans has done the same. It is simply false, though, to say Romans 8:1 somehow confirms that Paul was describing an unconverted condition in Romans 7. See above.

Rom 8:2 is the answer to Rom 7:23's lament.
Rom 6:6 is the answer to his Rom 7:24 lament.
Now, (at the time of his writing), his mind rules the body and not the other way around.

All of this simply ignores what I explained rather than deals with it seriously and directly. You're just deflecting. Address what I wrote reasonably, demonstrating how it's in error from the text, and then maybe I'll make the effort to respond to your questions here.

You read scriptures in a manner that accommodates sin.
Without a true turn for sin, your eternal future will be bleak,

Well, you're entitled to your opinion. But it's just an opinion.

Perfection, which only God possesses, is necessarily unattainable for us, which is why Jesus had to die in our place and why God must impute his perfect righteousness to us. We are, in our position in Jesus, clothed in him, already forensically "perfect." We could not be God's otherwise. What is there to "achieve," then? Believers simply progressively learn to live out what is true of them already in Christ, utterly secure in his perfection, not their own.

Your are in essence saying it is God's fault you still commit sin.
I know better, thanks be to God.

 

[Hopeful 2]

Look again more carefully at my point(s). Actually address them instead of just posing more rabbit-trail questions.

If you are not able to answer my posts, we can pick just one portion of it to go over in detail.

That was exactly my point to you. You're the one making the claim to know what perfect obedience to God looks like in thought, word and deed.

Who doesn't ?
We all have a conscience.

So, tell us all what such perfection is, what it looks like practically and in detail.

Love God with every corpuscle in your vessel, and love your neighbors as you love yourself.

Just more deflection and rabbit-trailing.

If you need me to re-cover some point, just say so.

This is a rather circular, semi-tautological way of thinking: I truly turn from my sin by repenting and I truly repent by turning from my sin. What does this "turn" look like, exactly? What does it entail? Why are born-again people told to repent in the New Testament who you say cannot sin and therefore cannot ever require repentance?

My first repentance from all sin was true, so I need no more repentances.

No. You assume my repentance is of the same thing each time, but this is not the case. It is impossible, for reasons I already explained, for anyone to repent of all their sin at one time. All they can do is repent of what they presently see of their sin that God has revealed to them. But as they walk with Him, His light penetrates ever-deeper into their life and exposes more from which they must repent. And so, repentance is an on-going feature of Christian living.

Do you think you will continue to commit sin until you have done every one of them ?
Why not just quit sinning entirely ?
With your old man having been destroyed, and the new man having been quickened by the Spirit of God, and the gift of the Holy Ghost, and dozens of biblical exhortations and admonissions to stay free from sin; going back to death seems more and more ludicrous with each passing day.

Strawman. I have never indicated that no improvement is proper or normal as an effect of accepting Christ.

All of your responses indicate no improvement...just continued sin.

Strawman. I said nothing about the character of Jesus but of his words to me about mine (and yours).

If you are like Jesus, and still commit sin, isn't Jesus a sinner too ?

Nope. Strawman.

Your defense of sin is palpable.

Nope. Strawman.

Servants of sin are enemies of Christ.

You have offered your view, which I showed to be in error.

You showed how you think they are erroneous.
And I have responded with the corrections.

Nope. I already explained why this is false and nothing you've offered in reply comes anywhere close to securing your view or refuting mine.

I gave you the verses.

Right back at you. As far as I'm concerned, from what I see in God's word, YOU are the one "walking in darkness." And what terrible darkness it is!
You cannot follow in the footsteps of the one whose life and truth you deny.
You should follow your own advice about Christ's words in Luke 6:46.
I have offered you his truth in my prior posts, not the careless contortions you've put forward.

Your truth is not Jesus' truth.
He said the truth could make you free of committing sin, in John 8:32-34.

 

[Tenchi]

Then Heb. 4:15 is pointless.

??? How so? Was Jesus not God Incarnate as the Bible declares?

John 1:1-4
1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
2 He was in the beginning with God.
3 All things came into being through Him, and apart from Him nothing came into being that has come into being.
4 In Him was life, and the life was the Light of men.

Philippians 2:5-7
5 Have this attitude in yourselves which was also in Christ Jesus,
6 who, although He existed in the form of God, did not regard equality with God a thing to be grasped,
7 but emptied Himself, taking the form of a bond-servant, and being made in the likeness of men.

Colossians 1:15-17
15 He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation.
16 For by Him all things were created, both in the heavens and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities—all things have been created through Him and for Him.
17 He is before all things, and in Him all things hold together.

Jesus was not a man; he was the God-Man, the Creator of the universe in human flesh. To compare ourselves to Christ, then, as though there is direct and complete parity with him is to ignore the testimony of Scripture to his deity. This was my point, not that Jesus did not understand or partake in our humanness.

He was our example of how to walk in the Spirit instead of in the "flesh".
John wrote..."He that saith he abideth in him ought himself also so to walk, even as he walked." (1 John 2:6)
Can't you say you abide in Him ?

This ignores the inappropriateness of the comparison you had tried to make. You are, actually, rabbit-trailing here, deflecting my point.

Jesus walked in the Spirit as he did, without flaw - which is to say, perfectly - because he wasn't just a man but God in human form. And it was because he did so, because he was uniquely capable as the God-Man to live perfectly, that he was able to atone for our sins. In other words, Jesus lived perfectly because he was perfect.

This isn't true of us, however. As Christians, we are sin-cursed, finite creatures who are indwelt by the Holy Spirit, the Spirit of Christ (Romans 8:9), and in him "abide in Christ," but this doesn't make us God-humans, capable of the same perfection that was natural and essential to Christ's deity. Because the Holy Spirit dwells within us, we can walk in ever-increasing holiness - and should - but Christ's perfection was a fundamental aspect of his deity and thus something we cannot as mere created beings, fouled by sin, ever obtain. And so, God, by forensic declaration, imputes Christ's perfect righteousness to those who, by faith, trust in him as their Savior and Lord, instead. (2 Corinthians 5:21; Galatians 3:26-27; Romans 5:17; 1 Corinthians 1:30, etc.)

You'll note, too, that 1 John 2:6 doesn't say that one must walk perfectly, as Christ did. One ought to walk as Jesus walked, but this isn't the same as saying one has to walk as he walked. In fact, John's use of the word "ought" implies that Christians don't always walk as Jesus did. John knew that Christ's perfect "walk" was not only unachievable but unnecessary since every believer already walks before God clothed in the righteous perfection of Jesus Christ.

Your refusal to answer indicates a lot.

That's...ironic coming from one who so often answers by deflection and rabbit trails.

Aren't you "in Him" ?

Why are you deflecting - again?

It was written for anyone who later would read it.

But first and most pertinently to those whom he identifies as it's intended recipients. Paul did not - and could not - have had you and I in mind when he wrote to the "saints at Rome" (Romans 1:7). He was focused upon these saints, fellow born-again children of God, not anyone else. And his words to them reveal that, though saints of God, these saints were not living in sinless perfection.

As those who are reborn of God's seed cannot commit sin, (1 John 3:9), I adjure you to permanently turn from sin and get reborn.

Uh huh. Pretty grandiose words. But not unexpected from someone who thinks they are an all-perfected saint, against the clear declaration of God to the opposite.

As I already pointed out to you, 1 John 3:9 speaks to a practice of sinful living, to a character of life that is perennially sinful rather than progressively holier. Here's the verse in its context so you can't slip around John's clear meaning by taking the verse out of its context:

1 John 3:7-10 (NASB)
7 Little children, make sure no one deceives you; the one who practices righteousness is righteous, just as He is righteous;
8 the one who practices sin is of the devil; for the devil has sinned from the beginning. The Son of God appeared for this purpose, to destroy the works of the devil.
9 No one who is born of God practices sin, because His seed abides in him; and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.
10 By this the children of God and the children of the devil are obvious: anyone who does not practice righteousness is not of God, nor the one who does not love his brother.

As Paul wrote, "Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?" (Rom 6:16)
Who do you serve ?

I serve God Almighty, Maker of heaven and earth. Who do you serve? Not Him, it would seem, since you are so easy with contorting His word so awfully.

The answer is no, we do not "continue in sin".
Then he explains how to do it.
Kill the old man and be raised with Christ to walk in newness of life.

No, he doesn't say "Kill the old man"; he says God has already put to death the "old man" through Christ's redemptive, atoning work on the cross and our spiritual union with him in what he did. And so, it remains for the Christian, not to put to death their "old man," but to stand by faith on the truth of their already-accomplished death to the "old man" and new life in Christ.

Romans 6:11-14 (NASB)
11 Even so consider yourselves to be dead to sin, but alive to God in Christ Jesus.
12 Therefore do not let sin reign in your mortal body so that you obey its lusts,
13 and do not go on presenting the members of your body to sin as instruments of unrighteousness; but present yourselves to God as those alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness to God.
14 For sin shall not be master over you, for you are not under law but under grace.

Verse 11 says nothing about the born-again believer "killing the old man," only that s/he should, by faith, count it so that s/he is already dead to sin.

Also, Paul says, in verse 13, that the saints at Rome shouldn't go on "presenting the members of their bodies to sin as instruments of unrighteousness." He is, essentially, telling them to stop sinning. But, hang on. According to you, Hopeful, the saints at Rome aren't capable of such a thing. They're sinlessly perfect, right? Well, not according to the apostle Paul. He tells the saints at Rome, the "beloved of God" (Romans 1:7), straight out in verse 13 that they're sinning needs to stop in light of the truth of their liberation from the source of all their sin, the "old man." Paul had also implied this state-of-affairs in his opening remarks of the chapter:

Romans 6:1-2 (NASB)
1 What shall we say then? Are we to continue in sin so that grace may increase?
2 May it never be! How shall we who died to sin still live in it?

Paul here indicated that the saints at Rome had been living in sin and should not continue to do so that "grace may increase." Doubts about his meaning here dissolve under his plain injunction in verse 13, "don't go on yielding yourselves to sin." There's no way to get around it - except by flat-out denial - that Paul was speaking to born-again people he believed were sinning, which totally contradicts your sinless perfection view, Hopeful. Do you still want to keep digging this hole for yourself? Or will you let go of the enormous pride at the bottom of your sinless perfection thinking and see God's word as it actually is.

You read a lot of things into it that are not there.
Had your accused abusers rejected his letter, grace, and wisdom, they would have been unbelievers.
They would have been servants of sin. (John 8:34)

Nope. See above. (And better consider my earlier posts to you.)

Continued below.

 

[Tenchi]

Were that true, then Jesus is the Lord of sinners.
Even though sinners are the servants of sin.
So is it your premise that Jesus has no servants ?

Faulty logic. You aren't willing to take up the more complicated view of Christian living that the Bible describes and so must frame things within this false dichotomy. I've explained in some detail now another way, a more biblical way, that dissolves your false dichotomy. Go back and actually think through what I've pointed out from Scripture.

The fruit of your POV is sin.
Mine is freedom from sin.

Well, I've shown repeatedly that this isn't so. Merely asserting what you have here doesn't undo the falsity of your view that's been revealed in our discussion.

Just as I have been saying
It is a narrative of his preconversion failed attempts at following the Law for his righteousness.

It's pretty obvious here you aren't actually thinking through what I'm writing but appear to be just knee-jerk reacting to it. There's not much point in continuing to discuss this when you are too weak and hyper-defensive in your view to fully engage with what I've pointed out from God's word.

I am glad you saw the "were in the flesh" so you can be sure he isn't in the flesh anymore.

Willful obtuseness in an attempt to deflect my point doesn't help your view any. It just makes you appear very disingenuous and thoughtless in your discussion with me.

Rom 7 is a sort of mid-way narrative of Paul's life.
It describes his past laments while in the flesh/Law keeper, and then his transformation to the present.

I took pains from the text of Romans 7 to explain why I hold the view I do about where, in Paul's spiritual experience, his struggle described in the chapter occurred. Your mere assertion here doesn't rebut my explanation in the slightest nor does it establish your own. From this frequent sort of facile response, it looks very much like you can't actually defend your position.

Rom 8:2 is the answer to Rom 7:23's lament.
Rom 6:6 is the answer to his Rom 7:24 lament.
Now, (at the time of his writing), his mind rules the body and not the other way around.

Just more bald assertion. An assertion, by itself, does not an argument make, however. Got anything more? It doesn't seem like it...

You read scriptures in a manner that accommodates sin.
Without a true turn for sin, your eternal future will be bleak,

And just more flat, unsupported assertion.

As our discussion has revealed, you read Scripture in a highly-contorted, highly-edited way, and I read it as it actually is.

Until you treat God's word honestly and carefully, you will continue to labor under terrible spiritual deception.

Your are in essence saying it is God's fault you still commit sin.
I know better, thanks be to God.

This is just Strawman stuff. It's silly and makes you look foolish and unthinking. Please leave off this ad hominem nonsense.

If you are not able to answer my posts, we can pick just one portion of it to go over in detail.

I've given you many, many opportunities to do so and in every case so far you've failed to "go over them in detail."

Who doesn't ?
We all have a conscience.

Deflection.

Love God with every corpuscle in your vessel, and love your neighbors as you love yourself.

What does this mean, exactly? How do you know when you're actually doing this? What's your standard of comparison? You can only know a crooked line by comparison to a straight one. What's your "straight line"? You avoided describing it (as I was sure you would).

If you need me to re-cover some point, just say so.

I would like you to deal directly and carefully with my responses. You seem capable only of deflection, raw assertion and offering rabbit trails.

My first repentance from all sin was true, so I need no more repentances.

And another deflection.

Do you think you will continue to commit sin until you have done every one of them ?
Why not just quit sinning entirely ?
With your old man having been destroyed, and the new man having been quickened by the Spirit of God, and the gift of the Holy Ghost, and dozens of biblical exhortations and admonissions to stay free from sin; going back to death seems more and more ludicrous with each passing day.

And even more deflection - and rabbit trails.

Your questions here plainly reveal that you haven't considered and understood all that I've taken pains to explain to you. As far as I can tell, you seem afraid to do so, protecting the "castle" of your false doctrine by refusing to engage fully with a challenging view, lobbing "stones" of deflection, assertion and rabbit trails, instead. Why bother? You have no hope of persuading me to your view and the longer you engage with me, the flimsier your "castle" is revealed to be.

All of your responses indicate no improvement...just continued sin.

Strawman. Have you never had a proper argument with anyone? Don't you know when you're falling prey to such logical fallacies? Or do you employ them purposefully?

If you are like Jesus, and still commit sin, isn't Jesus a sinner too ?

Non sequitur. If you'd read my remarks with any care, you'd not need to ask this question. My earlier posts show very plainly that this sort of conclusion doesn't follow at all from my views. But you don't want to actually understand my view; you simply want to declare and defend your own.

Your defense of sin is palpable.

??? A useless and silly reply. And ad hominem, to boot.

You showed how you think they are erroneous.
And I have responded with the corrections.

No, you haven't. See above. That you can't see this warns me that further discussion on this matter is fruitless.

So, please cease posting in this thread. I have no interest in making it a forum for the sort of thing you've introduced into it. Thanks.

 

[Hopeful 2]

??? How so? Was Jesus not God Incarnate as the Bible declares?

Jesus is our example of a man being able to resist every temptation.

Jesus was not a man; he was the God-Man, the Creator of the universe in human flesh. To compare ourselves to Christ, then, as though there is direct and complete parity with him is to ignore the testimony of Scripture to his deity. This was my point, not that Jesus did not understand or partake in our humanness.

If He wasn't a man, born of a woman, tempted as we are, many OT prophesies will not apply to Him.
Jesus is our example of a man being able to resist every temptation.

Jesus walked in the Spirit as he did, without flaw - which is to say, perfectly - because he wasn't just a man but God in human form. And it was because he did so, because he was uniquely capable as the God-Man to live perfectly, that he was able to atone for our sins. In other words, Jesus lived perfectly because he was perfect.

All those born of God's seed are perfect.
Whose seed were you reborn of ?

This isn't true of us, however. As Christians, we are sin-cursed, ...

Your defense of sin is not uncommon in the unrepentant.

You'll note, too, that 1 John 2:6 doesn't say that one must walk perfectly, as Christ did. One ought to walk as Jesus walked, but this isn't the same as saying one has to walk as he walked. In fact, John's use of the word "ought" implies that Christians don't always walk as Jesus did. John knew that Christ's perfect "walk" was not only unachievable but unnecessary since every believer already walks before God clothed in the righteous perfection of Jesus Christ.

Supra.

But first and most pertinently to those whom he identifies as it's intended recipients. Paul did not - and could not - have had you and I in mind when he wrote to the "saints at Rome" (Romans 1:7). He was focused upon these saints, fellow born-again children of God, not anyone else. And his words to them reveal that, though saints of God, these saints were not living in sinless perfection.

He probably wasn't thinking centuries ahead.
But I don't know how you can slander that whole bunch as living unperfect lives.

Uh huh. Pretty grandiose words. But not unexpected from someone who thinks they are an all-perfected saint, against the clear declaration of God to the opposite.

It is written..."We know that whosoever is born of God sinneth not; but he that is begotten of God keepeth himself, and that wicked one toucheth him not." (1 John 5:18)
Of whose seed have you been reborn of ?

As I already pointed out to you, 1 John 3:9 speaks to a practice of sinful living, to a character of life that is perennially sinful rather than progressively holier. Here's the verse in its context so you can't slip around John's clear meaning by taking the verse out of its context:

The word "practice" is not in a real bible.
You are being deceived into continuing in sin.

I serve God Almighty, Maker of heaven and earth. Who do you serve? Not Him, it would seem, since you are so easy with contorting His word so awfully.

If you commit sin, still, you are a servant of sin. (John 8:34)
No man can serve 2 masters. (Matt 6:24)
Paul writes..."Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?" (Rom 6:16)
You are on the way to a second death.
Turn from sin now !

No, he doesn't say "Kill the old man";

You are right, as I was paraphrasing Paul who actually said "destroy the old man" in Rom 6:6.
Along with Gal 5:24, we know the old man is crucified with Christ, so, killed.

he says God has already put to death the "old man" through Christ's

Our death, destruction, occurs on Jesus' cross when we are water baptized into Him and into His death. (Rom 6:3)

Verse 11 says nothing about the born-again believer "killing the old man," only that s/he should, by faith, count it so that s/he is already dead to sin.

You are correct, it is verse 6 that says "that the body of in might be destroyed ".

Also, Paul says, in verse 13, that the saints at Rome shouldn't go on "presenting the members of their bodies to sin as instruments of unrighteousness."

If I tell you to obey the speed limit, am I saying you have been speeding ?
You are reading way too much into Paul's admonissions and exhortations.

Romans 6:1-2 (NASB)
1 What shall we say then? Are we to continue in sin so that grace may increase?
2 May it never be! How shall we who died to sin still live in it?
Paul here indicated that the saints at Rome had been living in sin

No he isn't.
Your entire perspective is skewed by your inability to believe anyone can actually obey God.
Everyone is a sinner, in your eyes.

Faulty logic. You aren't willing to take up the more complicated view of Christian living that the Bible describes and so must frame things within this false dichotomy. I've explained in some detail now another way, a more biblical way, that dissolves your false dichotomy. Go back and actually think through what I've pointed out from Scripture.

So far, all I get from your "more complicated view" is that nobody was freed from sin by Jesus Christ.
I am not interested in back-sliding into sin.
Peter writes..."Forasmuch then as Christ hath suffered for us in the flesh, arm yourselves likewise with the same mind: for he that hath suffered in the flesh hath ceased from sin;" (1 Peter 4:1)
So, arm yourself with that mind, and cease from sin !

It's pretty obvious here you aren't actually thinking through what I'm writing but appear to be just knee-jerk reacting to it. There's not much point in continuing to discuss this when you are too weak and hyper-defensive in your view to fully engage with what I've pointed out from God's word.

Not much point at all.
I will not return to sin based on your or anyone else's misinterpretation of God's word.
You won't leave sin for good based on anything at all.

Willful obtuseness in an attempt to deflect my point doesn't help your view any. It just makes you appear very disingenuous and thoughtless in your discussion with me.

Your points are poisonous.

I took pains from the text of Romans 7 to explain why I hold the view

Your interpretation is an accommodation for the sin I have been freed from.

 

[Hopeful 2]

As our discussion has revealed, you read Scripture in a highly-contorted, highly-edited way, and I read it as it actually is.

I sure do, but I have the gift of the Holy Ghost which is given to non-sinners.
God's word doesn't accommodate any sinfulness.
You write what you want to see.

Until you treat God's word honestly and carefully, you will continue to labor under terrible spiritual deception.

Then what ?
Be like you ?
You are not free from sin, so you have nothing to offer me.

What does this mean, exactly?

Love God with all your heart, soul and mind...doesn't sound like something hard to understand.

How do you know when you're actually doing this?

I know it every time I resist temptation.

What's your standard of comparison?

My standard is...What would Jesus do in this or that situation?

You can only know a crooked line by comparison to a straight one. What's your "straight line"? You avoided describing it (as I was sure you would).

The standard in Christ.

I would like you to deal directly and carefully with my responses. You seem capable only of deflection, raw assertion and offering rabbit trails.

Then pick one point and we can cover it from each of our perspectives.

Your questions here plainly reveal that you haven't considered and understood all that I've taken pains to explain to you.

If I can prove to you that you can live without sin, will you live without sin ?

Have you never had a proper argument with anyone?

Yes, often.

Non sequitur. If you'd read my remarks with any care, you'd not need to ask this question. My earlier posts show very plainly that this sort of conclusion doesn't follow at all from my views. But you don't want to actually understand my view; you simply want to declare and defend your own.

When I communicate with men intent on luring me away from righteousness, I refuse the offer.

??? A useless and silly reply. And ad hominem, to boot.

Just an observation.
It is the face you present.

No, you haven't. See above. That you can't see this warns me that further discussion on this matter is fruitless.
So, please cease posting in this thread. I have no interest in making it a forum for the sort of thing you've introduced into it. Thanks.

Back to the OP...
God won't answer the prayers of the sinful. (John 9:31)
He hates sinners. (Psalm 5:5)
Thankfully, He has made a way to live without sinning.