Bible Study Why is the Body of Christ (Christian Church) so fractured/divided?

[HalleluYAH]

For example, some denominations say that the rapture is true, while others say it is not.

There are many, many other examples.

I think it comes down to lack of scriptural scholarship by many pastors, not all. For example, some seminaries even tell students not to teach above a 4th grade level and to never teach anything controversial.

 

[Christ_empowered]

I think once the Protestants split form the RCC, further splits were bound to happen. I'm in the US. Here, even local congregations will split. For whatever reason, seems to happen a lot to Southern Baptists...

Anyway, I think Protestantism can be a little too individualistic. Each person, each minister, can have his own interpretation of Scripture. Then again...the movements in Protestantism seem to add life to Christendom, at least for a season. Just look at The Pentecostals; they're growing internationally and in the US, too.

I dunno. I grew up PCUSA, and now the whole gay marriage thing has cost them a lot of $$$ and some churches have switched over to more conservative denominations under the Presbyterian umbrella. For the sake of stabillity, I sometimes consider going RCC, lol.

 

[JohnDB]

Hermeneutics is a blend of art and science. How much art vx how much science is as individualistic as anything else.

Mostly people use commentaries of someone else's opinion. Never doing any independent study. And if they really knew that the commentaries they lean on were just commentaries on other commentaries according to one guys work....well.

Today to do any real study is much easier than ever before. The internet is a valuable tool. But finding the silver pin amongst the haystacks of chrome ones is rather daunting.
I get rather dismayed at even the SBC literature lately. The scholarship is really low but often has a popular name as its author.

Scholarship in scriptural studies has never been easier and yet nothing has been included with the materials. It's not like we need another morality lesson.

But fractures of the body happen because people disagree on why Jesus was crucified and how we should go forward with believing that it was efficacious.

Tradition plays a major role in this. Even though Jesus made his opinion on traditions very clear. *sigh*

So the fracturing is ordained. God's Providence will get you into a denomination that it takes to bring you to the foot of the cross.

So where I sit on the rim of the widest pail of orthodoxy and almost ready to fall off. I tolerate a wide range of beliefs. I know the truth because of long hours of work... But it doesn't matter. People believe what they want regardless of the truth. Almost bordering on idolatry at times.

And that really saddens me. But its the world I live in...not my home.

 

[Blake]

It used to trouble me greatly, and I apologize sincerely if this seems like a simple cop-out, because to me it truly isn't, but this is what I've come to find...

There are so many because we humans are so diverse. With exception to blatant heresies that even the elementary theology student understands, nearly every expression of Christianity is God's own Church. There are personalities who are prone to liturgical worship and traditionalism, there are personalities who are prone to fiery preaching, there are personalities who are prone to the home church expression, and so on, and so forth...

What I'm getting to is simply this: God will lead you to the place where you will draw closest to Him. While the Pentecostal might not understand why the Catholic does things the way he does, and while the Quaker might not understand the way the Baptists the next city over does things, each and every one of them are drawing near to God. The vineyard is not as small and inclusive as we sometimes like to think. As many as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ. I believe JohnDB is right when he says the fracturing is ordained. The very same Spirit present in the God-fearing Catholic of the day was the same Spirit who spoke through the monk Martin Luther when he pinned the 95 Theses... and on and on it goes.

Coming from one who was raised Baptist, converted to church of Christ, then to Orthodoxy, and finally settled down in Pentecostalism... each and every single place I was taught me something else that I needed to know. Some things I may never understand on this side of eternity, but others I do understand. The Baptists taught me as a young boy who Jesus is. The church of Christ taught me to study to show myself approved. The Orthodox Church equipped me with knowledge from saints all throughout the ages that I formerly knew nothing about, and Pentecostalism said your knowledge cannot save you, come and experience your God. Hallelujah.

 

[Sinthesis]

So the fracturing is ordained. God's Providence will get you into a denomination that it takes to bring you to the foot of the cross.

Bingo!

 

[Brother Mike]

For example, some denominations say that the rapture is true, while others say it is not.

There are many, many other examples.

I think it comes down to lack of scriptural scholarship by many pastors, not all. For example, some seminaries even tell students not to teach above a 4th grade level and to never teach anything controversial.

They body of Christ is not fractured or divided. In fact, the growing number of Holy Spirit powered believers that are walking by faith, taking the name of Jesus and Healing to the streets is growing every moment. People are being set free, loosed from bondages, and It's pretty amazing the number of them, not just a few well known names as it use to be.

To use post V.S Pre trib rapture as an example of a fractured church means your putting way to much value on things that don't make a difference in someone's life who needs healed, off drugs, their family restored, and see the goodness of God in their life.

A few teachers from my Church help teach the Kids at Skyline Baptist church with the Baptist teachers. It's home-schooling for kids called vertas. The kids get prayed for, teachers have a session where kids can ask for mom or dad to be prayed and saved. It's pretty amazing the environment created there for the kids.

Despite the Word of Faith presence, mixed with Baptist, they come together for the Work of the Lord Jesus in those kids. You can have different doctrines, but that don't mean we all don't answer to the same Lord. We don't bring up tongues, because Baptist are not exactly into that, but there are lots of things we can talk about.

I suggest you start hanging out with different folks, the church is far from fractured. Even JLB and I go back and forth on Post and Pre trib, but we both believe the Name of Jesus heals today just like it did in Acts.

I have even talked to him on the phone, awesome brother in the Lord, and I could care less he believes in Post trib, because it won't matter if you stay obedient, and serve the Lord in all He has called you to do.

It's time we stop looking at what "OTHERS" believe, and do what the Lord asked us to do, and it's far more than just attending church and hanging out in the forums.

Mike.

 

[JLB]

For example, some denominations say that the rapture is true, while others say it is not.

There are many, many other examples.

I think it comes down to lack of scriptural scholarship by many pastors, not all. For example, some seminaries even tell students not to teach above a 4th grade level and to never teach anything controversial.

The main reason there is so much division in the body of Christ is, most denominations don't teach by nor have the Holy Spirit.
The very One who was sent to lead us and guide us into all truth.

Let's ask this question, that Paul asked... Did you receive the Holy Spirit when you believed? Acts 19:2

If receiving the Holy Spirit was somehow "automatic" at the moment of believing, then Paul would not have asked such a question.


JLB

 

[JohnDB]

The main reason there is so much division in the body of Christ is, most denominations don't teach by nor have the Holy Spirit.
The very One who was sent to lead us and guide us into all truth.

Let's ask this question, that Paul asked... Did you receive the Holy Spirit when you believed? Acts 19:2

If receiving the Holy Spirit was somehow "automatic" at the moment of believing, then Paul would not have asked such a question.


JLB

Isn't that going beyond what was written?
The Simon Magnus story can be used in the same fashion for showing the reverse of what you are saying.

 

[JLB]

They body of Christ is not fractured or divided. In fact, the growing number of Holy Spirit powered believers that are walking by faith, taking the name of Jesus and Healing to the streets is growing every moment. People are being set free, loosed from bondages, and It's pretty amazing the number of them, not just a few well known names as it use to be.

To use post V.S Pre trib rapture as an example of a fractured church means your putting way to much value on things that don't make a difference in someone's life who needs healed, off drugs, their family restored, and see the goodness of God in their life.

A few teachers from my Church help teach the Kids at Skyline Baptist church with the Baptist teachers. It's home-schooling for kids called vertas. The kids get prayed for, teachers have a session where kids can ask for mom or dad to be prayed and saved. It's pretty amazing the environment created there for the kids.

Despite the Word of Faith presence, mixed with Baptist, they come together for the Work of the Lord Jesus in those kids. You can have different doctrines, but that don't mean we all don't answer to the same Lord. We don't bring up tongues, because Baptist are not exactly into that, but there are lots of things we can talk about.

I suggest you start hanging out with different folks, the church is far from fractured. Even JLB and I go back and forth on Post and Pre trib, but we both believe the Name of Jesus heals today just like it did in Acts.

I have even talked to him on the phone, awesome brother in the Lord, and I could care less he believes in Post trib, because it won't matter if you stay obedient, and serve the Lord in all He has called you to do.

It's time we stop looking at what "OTHERS" believe, and do what the Lord asked us to do, and it's far more than just attending church and hanging out in the forums.

Mike.

I agree with what you said here Mike.

Unfortunately we have main stream denominational folks teaching the Baptism of the Holy Spirit, with the signs and wonders ceased with the Last Apostle, going home to be with the Lord.

On the other hand we see Charismatic types, with the flaky flopping and barking and unholy manifestations, together with an unholy lifestyle that drives people away from the truth about the Holy Spirit today.

A Balanced Spirit and Word doctrine and lifestyle is the only answer for this, together with the demonstration of a holy consecrated lifestyle, by the Pastors, Evangelist's and Teachers, and yes the Apostles and Prophets as well.

I see no time limit of this command -

15 And He said to them, "Go into all the world and preach the gospel to every creature.
16 He who believes and is baptized will be saved; but he who does not believe will be condemned.
17 And these signs will follow those who believe: In My name they will cast out demons; they will speak with new tongues;
18 they will take up serpents; and if they drink anything deadly, it will by no means hurt them; they will lay hands on the sick, and they will recover."
19 So then, after the Lord had spoken to them, He was received up into heaven, and sat down at the right hand of God.
20 And they went out and preached everywhere, the Lord working with them and confirming the word through the accompanying signs. Amen. Mark 16:15-20

I don't see where Jesus said, these signs will follow those who believe, until John dies.


I also don't see a time limit on these words of Paul -

11 And He Himself gave some to be apostles, some prophets, some evangelists, and some pastors and teachers,
12 for the equipping of the saints for the work of ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ,
13 till we all come to the unity of the faith and of the knowledge of the Son of God, to a perfect man, to the measure of the stature of the fullness of Christ;
14 that we should no longer be children, tossed to and fro and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the trickery of men, in the cunning craftiness of deceitful plotting,
15 but, speaking the truth in love, may grow up in all things into Him who is the head--Christ--
16 from whom the whole body, joined and knit together by what every joint supplies, according to the effective working by which every part does its share, causes growth of the body for the edifying of itself in love. Ephesians 4:11-16


The way that Jesus Christ designed for His Church to grow and mature, and be equipped and continue to establish The Church is by Apostles, Prophets, Evangelist's, Pastors and Teachers.

... till we all come to the unity of the faith and of the knowledge of the Son of God, to a perfect man, to the measure of the stature of the fullness of Christ;

The way Jesus Christ has designed for His Church to grow up into Him, into His character and nature, into His power working abilities and Wisdom, is by the Holy Spirit through Apostles, Prophets, Evangelist's, Pastors and Teachers.


JLB

 

[JLB]

Isn't that going beyond what was written?
The Simon Magnus story can be used in the same fashion for showing the reverse of what you are saying.

And it happened, while Apollos was at Corinth, that Paul, having passed through the upper regions, came to Ephesus. And finding some disciples he said to them, “Did you receive the Holy Spirit when you believed?”
So they said to him, “We have not so much as heard whether there is a Holy Spirit.” Acts 19:1-2

Here is the biblical way a person receives the Holy Spirit.

3 And he said to them, “Into what then were you baptized?”
So they said, “Into John’s baptism.”
4 Then Paul said, “John indeed baptized with a baptism of repentance, saying to the people that they should believe on Him who would come after him, that is, on Christ Jesus.”
5 When they heard this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus. 6 And when Paul had laid hands on them, the Holy Spirit came upon them, and they spoke with tongues and prophesied. Acts 19:3-5


and again

44 While Peter was still speaking these words, the Holy Spirit fell upon all those who heard the word. 45 And those of the circumcision who believed were astonished, as many as came with Peter, because the gift of the Holy Spirit had been poured out on the Gentiles also. 46 For they heard them speak with tongues and magnify God.

Then Peter answered, 47 “Can anyone forbid water, that these should not be baptized who have received the Holy Spirit just as we have?” 48 And he commanded them to be baptized in the name of the Lord. Then they asked him to stay a few days.

This is the way the scripture teaches us to receive the Holy Spirit, whether through the laying on of hands, or the Holy Spirit falling through God empowered and ordained preaching.

were astonished, as many as came with Peter, because the gift of the Holy Spirit had been poured out on the Gentiles also. For they heard them speak with tongues and magnify God.


...These signs will follow those who believe, in My name they will cast out devils, and speak with new tongues.


JLB

 

[JLB]

Revelation 22:18-19
18 For I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book, If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book:
19 And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book.

Deuteronomy 4:2 Ye shall not add unto the word which I command you, neither shall ye diminish ought from it, that ye may keep the commandments of the LORD your God which I command you.

Mark 13:31 Heaven and earth shall pass away: but my words shall not pass away.

Matthew 24:35 Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my words shall not pass away.

Malachi 3:6 For I am the LORD, I change not; therefore ye sons of Jacob are not consumed.

Amen!

If you find someone adding to these words... He who believes and is baptized will be saved; but he who does not believe will be condemned.
And these signs will follow those who believe: In My name they will cast out demons;they will speak with new tongues;

Please quote Revelation 22:18-19 to them.


JLB

 

[Kidron]

Opinions differ which create divisions.
Also, people need freedom of choice, as without this everything becomes dogmantic, robotic, and stale as death.

 

[JohnDB]

And of course the Charismatics claim that those that don't speak in tounges aren't saved just like the denominations which claim that those that aren't Baptized or don't go to church on Saturday or those that don't___________.

Bloody Mary became bloody over a collar the leaders wore.

The Church of England separated from the General (Catholic) church over the issue of divorce. Calvinists killed the first phlebotomist. Puritans looked down on everyone. Lutherans were the first to "rediscover" the scriptures (even though they really weren't).
Every one has a reason that they believe they are special to God over and above all the others. The truth isn't relevant. True humility be damned there is an agenda to promote and "I hold more truth/Holy Spirit in my little toe than any other denomination's best believer".

 

[Brother Mike]

A newer version of the bible changed “souls flying” to “birds flying”. Satan does some of his best works from Christian pulpits.

After all, with what did Satan tempt Christ in the wilderness?

I told you once already that verse has nothing to do with any rapture doctrine, I even had taken the time to break down the Hebrew for you. This is what happens when you allow a satanic spirit of Hatred for something get inside you. It blinds you, and makes everything look exactly as you want to read it.

The scripture was about women using charms and ensnaring people into their false belief. Sowing charms into the cloths. Blindness to what the rest of the chapter says is also pretty common when hatred of someone's doctrine has taken over you though an evil spirit. At this point it's a super natural blindness, which is very hard to shake, and it effects other area's of your life. Not a smart thing to have in your life.

Post and Pre trib come down to a few key verses, and EZE is not one of them. The Order of the Tares don't matter, the Order of the Resurrection does not matter, a whole lot of things can work for both sides and only argued about by novices.

Since you seem to be a Novice, mentioning EZE, I'll give you a key Word that changes the whole doctrine. It's how you interpret Apostasia. That is a big one, A Greek female noun? One of the 4 Greek verbs would have changed what Paul said, but the Holy Spirit used a Greek Female noun.

Another has to do with Eagles. A Post trib victory or is it. Depends on what you compare it to in other scriptures.

A post or Pre trib doctrine though gets nobody healed and set free. Something we should be focused on, not end time doctrines.

 

[Brother Mike]

And of course the Charismatics claim that those that don't speak in tounges aren't saved just like the denominations which claim that those that aren't Baptized or don't go to church on Saturday or those that don't___________.

Bloody Mary became bloody over a collar the leaders wore.

The Church of England separated from the General (Catholic) church over the issue of divorce. Calvinists killed the first phlebotomist. Puritans looked down on everyone. Lutherans were the first to "rediscover" the scriptures (even though they really weren't).
Every one has a reason that they believe they are special to God over and above all the others. The truth isn't relevant. True humility be damned there is an agenda to promote and "I hold more truth/Holy Spirit in my little toe than any other denomination's best believer".

Only the Apostolic Pentecostal Church believes that if you don't speak in tongues, you don't have the Holy Spirit and possibly may not be saved. Only the SDA believes you should practice the Sabbath day on Saturday, going to church is not their requirement,

I suggest you go to church faithfully and seek the gift of tongues, and not be talked out of it by the devil.

I agree with what you said here Mike.
I see no time limit of this command -

15 And He said to them, "Go into all the world and preach the gospel to every creature.
16 He who believes and is baptized will be saved; but he who does not believe will be condemned.
17 And these signs will follow those who believe: In My name they will cast out demons; they will speak with new tongues;
18 they will take up serpents; and if they drink anything deadly, it will by no means hurt them; they will lay hands on the sick, and they will recover."
19 So then, after the Lord had spoken to them, He was received up into heaven, and sat down at the right hand of God.
20 And they went out and preached everywhere, the Lord working with them and confirming the word through the accompanying signs. Amen. Mark 16:15-20
I don't see where Jesus said, these signs will follow those who believe, until John dies.
JLB

That's my interest. Staying anointed and doing the will of God, in the power of the Word and the Holy Spirit. It's fun to battle out doctrines that don't mean that much, and if it were clear as it is the blood of Jesus saves, then God would have made it more clear.

A whole lot of folks are not getting help though and believers are passing them by every single day. My radar is on all day for the Holy Spirit, and Lord whoever you want me to stop and talk to, I'll go talk to them. Whoever needs healed of something, use me Lord, and I'll go lay hands on them. Whoever needs to hear from you Lord, use me, and I'll go tell them what you said.

We are suppose to be the light of the earth, not much light going on if we are not out and walking by faith, knowing the Lord will always perform his Word without fail.

Mike.

 

[Blake]

I go where I'm able to draw closest to God corporately and individually. My church teaches the rapture and I'm not convinced of it at all. You'd think that judging by some legalist responses to my unbelief that I'd miss the rapture if it does exist. That's a problem. I've been to churches that bash other churches for worshiping with contemporary music because it's too worldly but sing Southern Gospel songs that are no older than 100 years old. It's truly straining at gnats.

I'll say this too, despite how the religious spirit of legalism will stretch this statement and make me appear to some: Churches are quick today to bash homosexuality but never touch on gluttony. That, to me, is worldliness -- being fat is more culturally accepted than being gay is, and it would be too hard to preach to people about putting down the burgers, so I won't. Great humility and sincere prayer is what we need. When those virtues break the levies within us, we'd have no concerns about doctrinal disputes, we'd be too busy ushering in the Kingdom of God here on earth by our words, deeds and thoughts. Theology and doctrinal disputes are garbage. God is not looking for men who can quote book chapter and verse or give lengthy and lofty speeches about nothing, He is looking for men who are living epistles. I am not impressed by men who know the word of God, I'm impressed with those who know the God of the word.

 

[smaller]

For example, some denominations say that the rapture is true, while others say it is not.

There are many, many other examples.

I think it comes down to lack of scriptural scholarship by many pastors, not all. For example, some seminaries even tell students not to teach above a 4th grade level and to never teach anything controversial.

No, it's quite a real phenomena. And there are very solid scriptural reasons why this happens. It's almost predictable.

I have a casual friend of mine who is a deeply sincere and convicted believer who is even "rewriting" the Bible if you can believe that?! I think he's gone off course myself. But he was also trying to get me involved in doing an organized home church, which I do casually now with others, but he was trying to organize this effort and part of that was to eliminate doctrinal subjects altogether and just go with worship formats. Uh, no thanks. You're just covering up the obvious. These problems are meant to come to all believers.

My 'last straw' on this matter was in a men's fellowship bible study, where we had it in a different person's home each Sat. a.m. from 8-noon. There were about 7-10 of us, and the host would take the lead, preparing ahead of time. It started out OK, but one day all 7 of us got into it over a single word in the O.T. about Gideon's warriors either "sipping" or "lapping" from their hands in the O.T. account. To me it didn't much matter or make any difference whatsoever. But to one particular guy this seemed to take on some type of bizarre critical importance, and he insisted that we all see it exactly as he saw, only as lap, like a dog laps. He was so obnoxious about it that 3 of the other guys moved to sipping because they resisted this guys manipulations, and then there was the "lap" guy and 2 proponents on his side. I was neutral. We literally spent 4 hours discussing that matter, and the group left, divided. I told my wife afterwards that it was probably the biggest waste of time I could ever remember, and that was the end of my men's Sat. a.m. bible study. I just don't have time for that kind of garbage. But it's quite a common phenomena, unfortunately. Imagine, 7 adult men quibbling about a single word in the O.T. for 4 hours.

Imagine a whole body of deeply educated theological scholars of older orthodoxy quibbling for hundreds of years now over 4 words, literally tossing heresy bombs back and forth, and you'll see a similar picture. It's just a waste of time and a distraction to spiritual growth. No one's eternal destiny is going to reside on such quibbles, period.

But there is a very certain form of mental megalomania that comes upon many believers in very odd fashions. It's a personal problem.

 

[Douglas Summers]

For example, some denominations say that the rapture is true, while others say it is not.

There are many, many other examples.

I think it comes down to lack of scriptural scholarship by many pastors, not all. For example, some seminaries even tell students not to teach above a 4th grade level and to never teach anything controversial.

God said it would be that way. The visible Church is a mixture of wheat and tares. (Matthew Chapter 13) A mixed multitude (Exodus 12: 38; Neih. 13: 3). Study the problems in Revelation of the 7 Churches.. Do you know what is true?

 

[Blake]

Imagine a whole body of deeply educated theological scholars of older orthodoxy quibbling for hundreds of years now over 4 words, literally tossing heresy bombs back and forth, and you'll see a similar picture. It's just a waste of time and a distraction to spiritual growth. No one's eternal destiny is going to reside on such quibbles, period.

This exact thing has been happening now -- the filioque -- the Roman addition of "and the Son" to the Creed has been debated by Roman Catholic and Eastern Orthodox for hundreds of years. Isn't it maddening?

 

[Chopper]

The main reason there is so much division in the body of Christ is, most denominations don't teach by nor have the Holy Spirit.
The very One who was sent to lead us and guide us into all truth.

Let's ask this question, that Paul asked... Did you receive the Holy Spirit when you believed? Acts 19:2

If receiving the Holy Spirit was somehow "automatic" at the moment of believing, then Paul would not have asked such a question.


JLB

Very good my old friend.