Bible Study Why is the Body of Christ (Christian Church) so fractured/divided?

[smaller]

This exact thing has been happening now -- the filioque -- the Roman addition of "and the Son" to the Creed has been debated by Roman Catholic and Eastern Orthodox for hundreds of years. Isn't it maddening?

No, it is actually a form of spiritual insanity. The vanity of "highly educated believers" trying to figure out how may angels can dance on the head of a pin. *I forget who cited this originally.*

 

[smaller]

God said it would be that way. The visible Church is a mixture of wheat and tares. (Matthew Chapter 13) A mixed multitude (Exodus 12: 38; Neih. 13: 3). Study the problems in Revelation of the 7 Churches.. Do you know what is true?

I have studied eschatology for over 3 decades. There is no angle that I have not studied, even from just about every nutcase angle there is.

I do not have positions other than these two basics.

A. Christ will be revealed "in us."

and

B. The devil and his messengers will be destroyed.

This basic construct is deeply embedded in allegory and parable, but this is the basis of the entirety. And, if any believer thought about this basic, I doubt very much there would be any dispute required.

 

[th1b.taylor]

My po0sition on this matter of division is found in the words published here by Blake and smaller. The issue of division has never existed with God's Church but is rather, found in the Worlds Christian Church. Both worship together, inside buildings, all over the earth. The Church of Jesus does not fight within itself over petty issues such as the Rapture of the Church ecause regardless of the timing, the Church of the Christ will go and all others will remain, period.

 

[reba]

because we see things differently does not make us fractured. Some folks like vanilla, some strawberry that does not make them fractured. if we are looking for fractures we can find them if we seek unity we can find it...some are roses some daisys some small some dahlias are huge they are all part of the family of flowers...

Ol th1b.taylor is a brother in the Lord i dont agree with all he believes yet he considers me a sister we are in the same family.

 

[Brother Mike]

Ezekiel 13:19-21
19 And will ye pollute me among my people for handfuls of barley and for pieces of bread, to slay the souls that should not die, and to save the souls alive that should not live, by your lying to my people that hear your lies?
20 Wherefore thus saith the Lord God; Behold, I am against your pillows, wherewith ye there hunt the souls to make them fly (rapture), and I will tear them from your arms, and will let the souls go, even the souls that ye hunt to make them fly (rapture).
21 Your kerchiefs also will I tear, and deliver my people out of your hand, and they shall be no more in your hand to be hunted; and ye shall know that I am the Lord.

If God is against something, it's not too healthy to be for it.

Your adding the word Rapture to scripture, and I told you that scripture has nothing to do with rapture, or being snatched suddenly. It has to do with charms, and being snared.

Now adding Words to scripture goes beyond my ability to take you very serious. We don't do that with scripture, ever.

Mike.

 

[reba]

Posters this forum is Bible Study not a study on whos theology is correct.. Keep your posting to studying Scripture and less to our interpretations. yes it is a fine line but lets try Admin

 

[jasonc]

okaaaaaayyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyy. ego, I must be right you are wrong.

 

[JohnDB]

K

Posters this forum is Bible Study not a study on whos theology is correct.. Keep your posting to studying Scripture and less to our interpretations. yes it is a fine line but lets try Admin

 

[th1b.taylor]

because we see things differently does not make us fractured. Some folks like vanilla, some strawberry that does not make them fractured. if we are looking for fractures we can find them if we seek unity we can find it...some are roses some daisys some small some dahlias are huge they are all part of the family of flowers...

Ol th1b.taylor is a brother in the Lord i dont agree with all he believes yet he considers me a sister we are in the same family.

You have defined the issue, perfectly. When I was in An Khe, Vietnam, my first year I saw Viet Cong Soldiers everywhere. By my second tour I no longer looked so hard for the VC and I enjoyed the native peoples much more and in truth, most hated the VC.

It is the same with Christians. If I hang out with Southern or with Missionary Baptists and never have coffee with a Catholic, a Northern Baptist, an Independent Baptist, a Charismatic Anything, it is easy to find reason to hate them. In my first tour in Vietnam I did not even associate with Vietnamese Soldiers and as a result, I did not know we had anything in common.

When I am present on a forum I, generally, avoid denominationally driven web sites because every person is not nor should they ever be carbon copies of Bill Taylor. And it is not my mission, as a follower of the Most Holy God, to fill the pews of the Baptist Church. My mission of service is explained in the last three verses of the last chapter of Matthew, where they go to church to learn and to worship is between them and the Holy Spirit of God but they are not my enemy because they are not seated next to one old nut bag, no, they are my brother or my sister because we both seek God.

 

[JohnDB]

The real truth about the love of God and what He really wants from us isn't complicated. But many find it difficult.

I've had so many discussions lately about what real love is versus what isn't love it makes me wonder if any have ever really had any.

Fear of the Lord is the beginning of wisdom.

But I'd say that truly loving him back is the fullness of wisdom. After all there are 365 times that God or an angel tells us,"Do not be afraid ".

 

[Chopper]

Hermeneutics is a blend of art and science. How much art vx how much science is as individualistic as anything else.

Mostly people use commentaries of someone else's opinion. Never doing any independent study. And if they really knew that the commentaries they lean on were just commentaries on other commentaries according to one guys work....well.

Today to do any real study is much easier than ever before. The internet is a valuable tool. But finding the silver pin amongst the haystacks of chrome ones is rather daunting.
I get rather dismayed at even the SBC literature lately. The scholarship is really low but often has a popular name as its author.

Scholarship in scriptural studies has never been easier and yet nothing has been included with the materials. It's not like we need another morality lesson.

But fractures of the body happen because people disagree on why Jesus was crucified and how we should go forward with believing that it was efficacious.

Tradition plays a major role in this. Even though Jesus made his opinion on traditions very clear. *sigh*

So the fracturing is ordained. God's Providence will get you into a denomination that it takes to bring you to the foot of the cross.

So where I sit on the rim of the widest pail of orthodoxy and almost ready to fall off. I tolerate a wide range of beliefs. I know the truth because of long hours of work... But it doesn't matter. People believe what they want regardless of the truth. Almost bordering on idolatry at times.

And that really saddens me. But its the world I live in...not my home.

 

[JohnDB]

whats that pic supposed to be of?
I don't understand it.

 

[ezra]

Here is the biblical way a person receives the Holy Spirit.

3 And he said to them, “Into what then were you baptized?”
So they said, “Into John’s baptism.”
4 Then Paul said, “John indeed baptized with a baptism of repentance, saying to the people that they should believe on Him who would come after him, that is, on Christ Jesus.”
5 When they heard this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus. 6 And when Paul had laid hands on them, the Holy Spirit came upon them, and they spoke with tongues and prophesied. Acts 19:3-5

i received the holy spirit the moment i was saved... "For by one Spirit we were all baptized into one body--whether Jews or Greeks, whether slaves or free--and have all been made to drink into one Spirit" (I Corinthains 12:13). Ephesians 2:18 For through Him we both have access by one Spirit to the Father.
Romans 8Holman Christian Standard Bible (HCSB)
The Life-Giving Spirit
8 Those who are in the flesh the Spirit of God lives in you. because of sin, but the Spirit is life because of righteousness. 9 You, however, are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, since the Spirit of God lives in you. But if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he does not belong to Him. by the spirit i was baptized unto the body the moment of the new birth .personally i was baptized in the name of the father son holy ghost. water baptism does not save us...

 

[ezra]

might i add its Christ IN US the hope of glory saved by grace through faith not of works lest any man boast. and boasting is what we have today. my denom is more powerful than yours. the independent baptist believe the southern baptist are liberal. the baptist think the Pentecostals are nuts. the Pentecostals think the baptist are dead. both are right all denoms needs revival starting with each person

 

[Douglas Summers]

i received the holy spirit the moment i was saved.......
Hi ezra, That is when I received His Spirit also. As to JLB's post. When the Gentiles were called into the body of Christ, the laying on of hands was a not prelude to receiving The Holy Spirit.

 

[th1b.taylor]

might i add its Christ IN US the hope of glory saved by grace through faith not of works lest any man boast. and boasting is what we have today. my denom is more powerful than yours. the independent baptist believe the southern baptist are liberal. the baptist think the Pentecostals are nuts. the Pentecostals think the baptist are dead. both are right all denoms needs revival starting with each person

Great pair of posts brother! JLB has never been direct about his dislike and distaste of my teaching but there has always been, just below the surface, the formula for salvation. I have never accepted any of the Calvinist formulas, old or new, because they do not fit the scriptures without believing the Word of God can be found in the Bible. I have been convinced through Holy Spirit led study that all, every word of the scriptures, original or God approved translation, is or are the Holy Word of God.

And I, having chosen to be a Baptist, have, on many occasions, met resistance about my salvation experience because I was saved on stage in a Cowboy Juke Joint. That year, my wife divorced me and would come dance with a list of men where I was performing and I was seriously trying, on my own, to understand the KJV Scriptures. God had been kicking my knees from the back all year long trying to get me to fall and worship Him and though I knew it was Him, I did not understand.

Now, of all the singers in the world for God to use on me, He used Dollie Pardon and her version of He's Alive. Just like the Lost Fool I was, about the first of October I made a deal with God! I teach any and everyone not to try that with our LORD, it doesn't work that way. I needed a car and I thought I needed to sing the rest of 1989 out to earn the needed money to pick up a decent automobile. But every time I heard Miss Pardon sing that number, no matter where I was, I was in tears.

That last gig came and fifteen minutes before midnight (midnight, bar time) I began to sing the New Year in. As I performed that number, two, completely separate spiritual forces were at work. On the dance floor Satan was busy working to get me to ignore the Holy Spirit's call. A well known fighting nut danced his wife past the mike and me giving me the single finger salute, an invitation to step out to the Parking Lot. But a moment, just before that the Holy Spirit moved on me and I knew two things. I was in the wrong place and I knew I was a blood bought Child of the Most High and only True God... I laughed at him and his wife had the devil getting that boy to carry her home.

I quit that set about ten minutes early and began picking up my equipment to go home. The Owner swore I would never sing anywhere in South East Texas again and I just agreed with him and went home. When I( had stored my instruments and my Amp away I picked up my Silver Leather covered King James and I unzipped and not caring and not knowing where to read, it opened to Isaiah 53 and everything it said was crystal clear... no gibberish. I fell on my face and praised God because I knew, right then that I was saved and I needed to be baptized so that others would see my testimony, I knew I was saved.

That experience is in full accordance with the Word of God but it does not fit with a great deal of man made theology. May God bless your efforts brother.

 

[Jim Parker]

Scholarship in scriptural studies has never been easier and yet nothing has been included with the materials. It's not like we need another morality lesson.

Unfortunately, such "scholarship" among Protestants essentially ignores the wealth of information recorded by the very early church which was the recipient of the teaching of the apostles.

But fractures of the body happen because people disagree on why Jesus was crucified and how we should go forward with believing that it was efficacious.

Tradition plays a major role in this. Even though Jesus made his opinion on traditions very clear. *sigh*

The word "tradition" is commonly misunderstood. Jesus s[poke about the heavy load of rule and regulations that the Scribes, Pharisees, and Rabbis of His day piled on the Law of Moses while consistently overlooking mercy and justice.

However, the teaching of the apostles, which is often referred to as the "apostolic tradition," contains the teaching which the early church received from the apostles. Protestant Seminaries generally ignore all of it.

So the fracturing is ordained. God's Providence will get you into a denomination that it takes to bring you to the foot of the cross.

That is highly unlikely. Paul's 1st letter to the Corinthian church was written to address the PROBLEM of divisions in the church.
Consider:

Jude 1:17-19 But you must remember, beloved, the predictions of the apostles of our Lord Jesus Christ; they said to you, "In the last time there will be scoffers, following their own ungodly passions." It is these who set up divisions, worldly people, devoid of the Spirit.

People believe what they want regardless of the truth. Almost bordering on idolatry at times. And that really saddens me. But its the world I live in...not my home.

Amen


my 2 kopecks
Iakov the fool

 

[smaller]

Great pair of posts brother! JLB has never been direct about his dislike and distaste of my teaching but there has always been, just below the surface, the formula for salvation. I have never accepted any of the Calvinist formulas, old or new, because they do not fit the scriptures without believing the Word of God can be found in the Bible. I have been convinced through Holy Spirit led study that all, every word of the scriptures, original or God approved translation, is or are the Holy Word of God.

And I, having chosen to be a Baptist, have, on many occasions, met resistance about my salvation experience because I was saved on stage in a Cowboy Juke Joint. That year, my wife divorced me and would come dance with a list of men where I was performing and I was seriously trying, on my own, to understand the KJV Scriptures. God had been kicking my knees from the back all year long trying to get me to fall and worship Him and though I knew it was Him, I did not understand.

Now, of all the singers in the world for God to use on me, He used Dollie Pardon and her version of He's Alive. Just like the Lost Fool I was, about the first of October I made a deal with God! I teach any and everyone not to try that with our LORD, it doesn't work that way. I needed a car and I thought I needed to sing the rest of 1989 out to earn the needed money to pick up a decent automobile. But every time I heard Miss Pardon sing that number, no matter where I was, I was in tears.

That last gig came and fifteen minutes before midnight (midnight, bar time) I began to sing the New Year in. As I performed that number, two, completely separate spiritual forces were at work. On the dance floor Satan was busy working to get me to ignore the Holy Spirit's call. A well known fighting nut danced his wife past the mike and me giving me the single finger salute, an invitation to step out to the Parking Lot. But a moment, just before that the Holy Spirit moved on me and I knew two things. I was in the wrong place and I knew I was a blood bought Child of the Most High and only True God... I laughed at him and his wife had the devil getting that boy to carry her home.

I quit that set about ten minutes early and began picking up my equipment to go home. The Owner swore I would never sing anywhere in South East Texas again and I just agreed with him and went home. When I( had stored my instruments and my Amp away I picked up my Silver Leather covered King James and I unzipped and not caring and not knowing where to read, it opened to Isaiah 53 and everything it said was crystal clear... no gibberish. I fell on my face and praised God because I knew, right then that I was saved and I needed to be baptized so that others would see my testimony, I knew I was saved.

That experience is in full accordance with the Word of God but it does not fit with a great deal of man made theology. May God bless your efforts brother.

In determinist forms of theology your account, which is a miracle and a wonderful witness/testimony btw, is aka, "irresistible Grace."

When Christ calls, He get's it done.

 

[Jim Parker]

In determinist forms of theology your account, which is a miracle and a wonderful witness/testimony btw, is aka, "irresistible Grace."

When Christ calls, He get's it done.

"Irresistible Grace", is it really irresistible?

Mat 11:20-24 Then he began to upbraid the cities where most of his mighty works had been done, because they did not repent. "Woe to you, Chora'zin! woe to you, Beth-sa'ida! for if the mighty works done in you had been done in Tyre and Sidon, they would have repented long ago in sackcloth and ashes. But I tell you, it shall be more tolerable on the day of judgment for Tyre and Sidon than for you. And you, Caper'na-um, will you be exalted to heaven? You shall be brought down to Hades. For if the mighty works done in you had been done in Sodom, it would have remained until this day. But I tell you that it shall be more tolerable on the day of judgment for the land of Sodom than for you."

Jesus personally called to the people of those cities but didn't "get it done." Apparently they found His grace resistible.

Or perhaps those were people who were not among the few who are predestined for salvation and, being not among those to whom the atonement was limited, they were predestined for hell.

Isn't that how it works according to TULIP? Or do I have it wrong?

my 2 kopecks
iakov the fool

 

[reba]

His sheep hear His voice...