Why is there so much resistance to the eternal security of the believer?

[childeye]

You think that because, probably, the OSAS indoctrination runs so deep in you that you can only hear non-OSAS as 'God dumps you', instead of what non-OSAS actually is, 'you dump God'. Am I right?

With all sincerity you are not right, but you are dead on with your objectivity. What I mean is I don't have any OSAS indoctrination, but to see both sides of the issue brings clarity to the semantic confusion on this thread. And these two different connotations of the word 'dump' you have clearly identified as "God dumps you" and "You dump God". Thank you for joining me in seeking clarity. For we can now see that Satan would work both ends against the middle where people argue semantics instead of agreeing on sentiment.

I didn't really think you meant that the Love of Jesus doesn't exist. I was just frankly telling you how you were coming across. Which begs the question, that if you do understand the semantics involved, why did you write a post suggesting you don't? My first post on this thread was about the semantics of falling away, turning from Christ back to sin, and what that means. I don't usually engage in this topic because it is lost in semantics. But there was nothing else happening on the forum so I am here.

"33 "But whoever denies Me before men, I will also deny him before My Father who is in heaven." (Matthew 10:23 NASB)

See, the person denies the Father, first. But OSAS thinks the argument is that God does the denying of the person first. If that were true, that is what would make God unfaithful and a liar. But as it is, that is not the argument.

Yes the person denies the Christ first. A solid fact. So the argument is can a person deny Christ. Now, is this scripture speaking about someone who already believed from the heart to begin with? I can't tell since I think the bible references are not correct. See where this is heading?

 

[th1b.taylor]

Maybe the problem is not OSAS but other misunderstandings about how God deals with sin in someone's life. Even if one believes OSAS, what do they believe about God's discipline for a believer who sins? Do they think that because they are saved that they can just get away scott free while they are living?

Heb 12:6 For whom the Lord loveth he chasteneth, and scourgeth every son whom he receiveth.
Heb 12:7 If ye endure chastening, God dealeth with you as with sons; for what son is he whom the father chasteneth not?
Heb 12:8 But if ye be without chastisement, whereof all are partakers, then are ye bastards, and not sons.

Obviously, God knows that ALL His children are not perfect and will need to be chastised.

I, personally, believe this is at least a part of the issue. The remainder of causes seem to cover just about any excuse a man can dream up.

 

[JLB]

The New Birth is supernatural -- "born from above" and "born of God", and irrevocable -- "sons of God"

But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name: John 1:12

God gives us the grace and the power to become sons of God.

The Holy Spirit is the agent of that power to become sons of God.

For you are all sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus. Galatians 3:26

Faith is the substance of the thing you are hoping for...

Faith is the crucial element of salvation, that must continue to the end, in order for a person to obtain the reality of the thing [salvation] that they are hoping for.

Paul says it this way -

24 For we were saved in this hope, but hope that is seen is not hope; for why does one still hope for what he sees?
25 But if we hope for what we do not see, we eagerly wait for it with perseverance. Romans 8:24-25

We don't yet "see" this salvation we are hoping for, by faith in Jesus Christ, that is why Paul says we must patiently persevere while we are waiting for it, for now we have it by faith.

If we are waiting for it [salvation] then obviously we have not obtained the reality of it yet.


Peter says it this way -

7 that the genuineness of your faith, being much more precious than gold that perishes, though it is tested by fire, may be found to praise, honor, and glory at the revelation of Jesus Christ,
8 whom having not seen you love. Though now you do not see Him, yet believing, you rejoice with joy inexpressible and full of glory,
9 receiving the end of your faith--the salvation of your souls.


That is why those who believe what the scriptures teach as a whole, are so single minded about continuing in the faith, steadfast unto the end.



eternal life to those who by patient continuance in doing good seek for glory, honor, and immortality; but to those who are self-seeking and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness--indignation and wrath, Romans 2:7-8


JLB

 

[childeye]

"33 "But whoever denies Me before men, I will also deny him before My Father who is in heaven." (Matthew 10:23 NASB)

See, the person denies the Father, first.

Okay I found the bible reference. I picture men denying Christ under pressure to do so. Matthew 10:28. Which brings to mind Peter denying Christ 3 times, and Paul stoning Steven before conversion. Will Jesus deny Peter before the Father? I think not, since on the day of Penetecost, they were hiding in the upper room in fear of those who sought to kill them, and after the Holy Spirit came, they were outside openly proclaiming loudly the Truth of Christ, unafraid of dying for doing so.

Moreover, at the resurrection of the dead, all of mankind will be quickened because Jesus holds the keys to hell and death. So I would ask a question; supposing that men don't persevere in belief or fall away for whatever reason... Let's say I'm standing there before God guilty of having denied Christ in an act of unfaithfulness. And Christ denies me before His Father. Does that mean God can't and won't forgive?

 

[JLB]

Peter denying Christ 3 times,

Peter did not have the Holy Spirit, at the time he denied the Lord.

This came afterward.

22 And when He had said this, He breathed on them, and said to them, "Receive the Holy Spirit.
23 If you forgive the sins of any, they are forgiven them; if you retain the sins of any, they are retained."
John 20:22-23

Now they have the ability to forgive sins.

I believe this is where they received the new birth.

On the day of Pentecost, is when they were baptized with the Holy Spirit and fire.


JLB

 

[childeye]

Peter did not have the Holy Spirit, at the time he denied the Lord.

So does the Holy Spirit make a difference in how we choose, or do we have freewills as per the dictionary definition? Don't get me wrong. I believe in a freewill. The New birth is a freewill to me. It's just not based on sin like the dictionary definition of freewill.

 

[Deborah13]

So does the Holy Spirit make a difference in how we choose, or do we have freewills as per the dictionary definition?

Joh 12:32 And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me.
2Co 5:20 Now then we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God did beseech you by us: we pray you in Christ's stead, be ye reconciled to God.

He draws by the Holy Spirit.....this is an influence on man
Man chooses to be reconciled to God through His Son

So are we free to choose? Every choice that we make in life is influenced by something, education, experience, a trusted person's guidance, etc.
So I think when a Christian uses the term ' free will' what they are saying is that man has a will (he can reason) and God has given him the privilege of choice (freedom to choose).

 

[Malachi]

We don't yet "see" this salvation we are hoping for, by faith in Jesus Christ, that is why Paul says we must patiently persevere while we are waiting for it, for now we have it by faith.

When we see in Scripture that we are "waiting" for our salvation, we need to clearly understand that there are three tenses to salvation:

(1) we have been saved -- justified, which is an accomplished and irrevocable fact because eternal life is a GIFT of God's grace (Rom 5:1; 6:23);

(2) we are being saved -- sanctified, an ongoing process of growing in grace and in holiness, hence all the exhortations to depart from iniquity (1 Pet 1:2); and

(3) we shall be saved -- perfected and glorified, at the Rapture/Resurrection when we are perfected (body, soul, and spirit) as well as glorified (glorious, immortal, "spiritual bodies") (1 Cor 15:53; 1 Jn 3:1-3).

So we are "waiting" for the final phase even while we are fully righteous in God's eyes, through imputed righteousness, and the New Birth. If we don't keep these three tenses in view, we will always be confused about our salvation. But Paul makes everything clear in Rom 8:30, since those who believe are already predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son (Rom 8:29):
Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called:
and whom he called, them he also justified:
and whom he justified, them he also glorified.
And this is why the believer's salvation is ETERNALLY SECURE.

 

[childeye]

Joh 12:32 And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me.
2Co 5:20 Now then we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God did beseech you by us: we pray you in Christ's stead, be ye reconciled to God.

He draws by the Holy Spirit.....this is an influence on man
Man chooses to be reconciled to God through His Son

So are we free to choose? Every choice that we make in life is influenced by something, education, experience, a trusted person's guidance, etc.
So I think when a Christian uses the term ' free will' what they are saying is that man has a will (he can reason) and God has given him the privilege of choice (freedom to choose).

Thank you Deborah13. You alone seem to be the only one to address the sincere concern in my heart as I read scripture and come to understand the corruption that is in mankind.

I agree with you that when a Christian uses the term free will that is what they mean. I also notice the word freedom to choose is being called a privilege of choice. That to me is an ambiguity. Privilege of choice sounds like a bias attitude towards the term freewill that is positive in its connotation. Consequently it has not been thoroughly examined since it displays a naiveté. Why not just say the 'will' like scripture does? Is Free put there so as to be thankful for the privilege of not just being able to say yes to God but also the privilege of saying no to God? That is by definition an equivocation.

I know we reason and choose as do all animals of lesser intelligence. But, the dictionary doesn't define free as a privilege. It defines free as free from God and fate. To me that's a bad thing to make decisions free from God since God is Love and the Light of man.

Here is where it gets seriously problematic for me. In the moral sense, freedom of choice is presented as between two images of God/god. One corrupt and one Holy and True. One evil and one good. In scripture we begin in servitude to God with a trust that He is Holy and True. In all purity of heart, we don't have any reason to think otherwise and so there is no 'freedom' of choice. nor would we seek one. That is, there is no choice to think otherwise until the serpent says there is.

Scripture is saying Satan provided the option to sin, not God. So when you say God gave us the privilege to choose between Him and sin, this is not true as pertains to the moral choice. Unless of course Satan is your god. So scripture is saying Satan through subtle insinuation said God was a liar and a self serving tyrant. Scripture is saying that Satan said we didn't have to obey God as if obeying God was a bad thing. Morally speaking, it appears that freewill is an invention of Satan, through which a false image of god justifies rebellion as freedom of choice.

On top of that, the knowledge of good and evil represents in scripture a means to choose for ourselves apart from God through this knowledge, just like freewill in the dictionary claims. And people still think this is a good thing or else we are robots.

I've been censored on two other forums for saying these things.4 The serpent said to the woman, “You surely will not die!5 For God knows that in the day you eat from it your eyes will be opened, andyou will be like God, knowing good and evil.”6 When the woman saw that the tree was good for food, and that it was a delight to the eyes, and that the tree was desirable to makeonewise, she took from its fruit and ate; and she gave also to her husband with her, and he ate.

 

[childeye]

To the moderator. My time to edit ran out before I could post my scripture in post #108. Also I believe post #108 is on topic because the issue of eternal security is dependent upon faith in the true Image of God. This post is meant to show what the True image is and where the false image of god comes from, and how it is hidden in subterfuge.

 

[JLB]

When we see in Scripture that we are "waiting" for our salvation, we need to clearly understand that there are three tenses to salvation:

(1) we have been saved -- justified, which is an accomplished and irrevocable fact because eternal life is a GIFT of God's grace (Rom 5:1; 6:23);

(2) we are being saved -- sanctified, an ongoing process of growing in grace and in holiness, hence all the exhortations to depart from iniquity (1 Pet 1:2); and

(3) we shall be saved -- perfected and glorified, at the Rapture/Resurrection when we are perfected (body, soul, and spirit) as well as glorified (glorious, immortal, "spiritual bodies") (1 Cor 15:53; 1 Jn 3:1-3).

So we are "waiting" for the final phase even while we are fully righteous in God's eyes, through imputed righteousness, and the New Birth. If we don't keep these three tenses in view, we will always be confused about our salvation. But Paul makes everything clear in Rom 8:30, since those who believe are already predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son (Rom 8:29):
Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called:
and whom he called, them he also justified:
and whom he justified, them he also glorified.
And this is why the believer's salvation is ETERNALLY SECURE.

Believer Yes, I agree.

Those who believe for awhile, then turn away, are no longer believer's.

12 Those by the wayside are the ones who hear; then the devil comes and takes away the word out of their hearts, lest they should believe and be saved.

We see here that believe = saved.


13 But the ones on the rock are those who, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no root, who believe for a while and in time of temptation fall away. Luke 8:12-13


Likewise, if believe = saved, then believe for a while = saved for a while.

The same Greek word here in Luke 8 for fall away, is used by the writer of Hebrews, and rendered departing from as he warns believers:

12 Beware, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief in departing from the living God;
13 but exhort one another daily, while it is called "Today," lest any of you be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin.
14 For we have become partakers of Christ if we hold the beginning of our confidence steadfast to the end,
Hebrews 3:12-14

So as long as we continue to believe, our salvation is eternally secure.


JLB

 

[Malachi]

So as long as we continue to believe, our salvation is eternally secure.

Why would a Christian NOT continue to believe? BTW Hebrews was written to Hebrew Christians vacillating between the excellency of Christ and the expediency of Moses, and these exhortations should be seen in that light.

But let's take someone like "theologian" John Shelby Spong who claims to be a Christian but rejects the central truth of Christianity, Here are his words:

The view of the cross as the sacrifice for the sins of the world is a barbarian idea based on primitive concepts of God and must be dismissed.

Was this man ever saved? Is he not an apostate? He never did believe, therefore he never was saved. How could he lose something he never had?

 

[Butch5]

So what you're saying is fear of being cast off is the reason he beats himself? You do know Paul had a devil, don't you? 2 Corinthians 12:7. This thorn in the flesh could have something to do with that. He's afraid of being puffed up with knowledge. That is probably the flesh he is talking about. For being puffed up with knowledge is carnal.

The whole point is that he could be cast off. He beats his body into submission so that he is not cast off. This, among others, shows that Paul didn't believe in OSAS.

27 But I keep under my body, and bring it into subjection: lest that by any means, when I have preached to others, I myself should be a castaway. (1Co 9:27 KJV)

 

[Butch5]

Butch5, I believe a person is counted as righteous when they believe from the heart that Jesus as seen on the cross is how God is. I don't believe they can become unrighteous after God declares them righteous. This is difficult to
write about because of the semantics involved. But just suppose wickedness is finding fault in anything. For instance, someone gives charity and it is not good enough, for he still had more to give. And when he gave all he had, it was counted as simply trying to look good. Since all things are built on faith, then nothing stands un-accusable to the wicked mind, including God, Who is Holy. This is the whole lesson of scripture. Do you believe that there is a place where a man can rest from the endless accusations? Does a man ever cease having to prove himself day in and day out? Is there a place where the works cease and a man can rest because he is above reproach? That place is in Christ.

I'm not sure what you're getting at here, but I will submit that one can be unrighteous after being declared righteous.

11 Say unto them, As I live, saith the Lord GOD, I have no pleasure in the death of the wicked; but that the wicked turn from his way and live: turn ye, turn ye from your evil ways; for why will ye die, O house of Israel?
12 Therefore, thou son of man, say unto the children of thy people, The righteousness of the righteous shall not deliver him in the day of his transgression: as for the wickedness of the wicked, he shall not fall thereby in the day that he turneth from his wickedness; neither shall the righteous be able to live for his righteousness in the day that he sinneth.
13 When I shall say to the righteous, that he shall surely live; if he trust to his own righteousness, and commit iniquity, all his righteousnesses shall not be remembered; but for his iniquity that he hath committed, he shall die for it. (Eze 33:11-13 KJV)

 

[JLB]

Why would a Christian NOT continue to believe? BTW Hebrews was written to Hebrew Christians vacillating between the excellency of Christ and the expediency of Moses, and these exhortations should be seen in that light.

But let's take someone like "theologian" John Shelby Spong who claims to be a Christian but rejects the central truth of Christianity, Here are his words:

Was this man ever saved? Is he not an apostate? He never did believe, therefore he never was saved. How could he lose something he never had?

Well that's a start.

So you at least believe that "Jewish" Believers can depart from the faith.

Once the occurs, they have become unbelievers, in which the eternal life that you say they were secure in, is no longer available because they have chosen to depart from the living God in unbelief.

Which is exactly what Jesus taught in the Luke 8:12-13

12 Those by the wayside are the ones who hear; then the devil comes and takes away the word out of their hearts, lest they should believe and be saved. 13 But the ones on the rock are those who, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no root, who believe for a while and in time of temptation fall away.
Luke 8:12-13

Believe = Saved

Believe for awhile = saved for awhile


JLB

 

[Butch5]

The whole point is that he could be cast off. He beats his body into submission so that he is not cast off. This, among others, shows that Paul didn't believe in OSAS

Not disagreeing with you. How did Paul do that? He kept the faith. If he hadn't kept the faith, he would have left the faith.

I don't see how this addresses being cast off.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Why would a Christian NOT continue to believe?

If you don't mind me jumping in here....For the same reason the Bible warns them not to.
In the passage JLB shared above, the soil whose plantings failed, failed because of not being firmly rooted, and as a result, failed in the time of temptation.

13 "Those on the rocky soil are those who, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no firm root; they believe for a while, and in time of temptation fall away." (Luke 8:13 NASB)

Having been immersed in the OSAS culture of the church myself I know how hard it is to see and understand this basic and completely logical and reasonable truth. People stop believing because they simply were not strong believers and, therefore, their lack of firm conviction can not keep them in the hour of temptation. Pretty understandable and logical, even spiritually, to me. I don't know why we have to make the verse mean something else than what it plainly says. It's not like the 'gouge your right eye out' thing which obviously is an exaggerated hyperbole used to illustrate a spiritual truth.

BTW Hebrews was written to Hebrew Christians vacillating between the excellency of Christ and the expediency of Moses, and these exhortations should be seen in that light.

Every time I hear this argument I wonder what is so different about a Jew having a weaker, less grounded conviction about Christ and its consequences? Is non-OSAS only true for Jews? Only true for first century Jews who had a literal Temple covenant to return to? Of course not.

Was this man ever saved? Is he not an apostate? He never did believe, therefore he never was saved. How could he lose something he never had?

I don't think it matters as much as the fact that the punishment is still that same....well, I mean worse in intensity than if he hadn't believed, but the same punishment as if he'd never believed.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

So you at least believe that "Jewish" Believers can depart from the faith.

One day it occurred to me how the OSAS church will tell you out of one side of their mouth that you can't lose your salvation, but tell you out the other side that you are damned if you return to the law for justification citing passage like this to prove their point:

"4 You have been severed from Christ, you who are seeking to be justified by law; you have fallen from grace." (Galatians 5:4 NASB)

I had people telling me in the law threads that the person who goes back to the law for justification will lose his salvation (true), but the same people telling me in the OSAS threads you can't lose your salvation 2. This duplicity was eye opening to me. Eye opening in being able to see how indoctrinations can run so deep as to hinder reasonable logic and sensibility in the people who are under the power of those indoctrinations. They are in effect blinders that rob people of sight outside of the immediate tunnel vision of their indoctrination.

 

[childeye]

I'm not sure what you're getting at here, but I will submit that one can be unrighteous after being declared righteous.

11 Say unto them, As I live, saith the Lord GOD, I have no pleasure in the death of the wicked; but that the wicked turn from his way and live: turn ye, turn ye from your evil ways; for why will ye die, O house of Israel?
12 Therefore, thou son of man, say unto the children of thy people, The righteousness of the righteous shall not deliver him in the day of his transgression: as for the wickedness of the wicked, he shall not fall thereby in the day that he turneth from his wickedness; neither shall the righteous be able to live for his righteousness in the day that he sinneth.
13 When I shall say to the righteous, that he shall surely live; if he trust to his own righteousness, and commit iniquity, all his righteousnesses shall not be remembered; but for his iniquity that he hath committed, he shall die for it. (Eze 33:11-13 KJV)

Great scripture application Butch5. I submit that this scripture is not saying a man is righteous as in God dwelling inside of him in Holiness. Oh how I wish it could be understood what righteousness is to God and what righteousness is to man. Oh if it could be understood what wickedness is and where it comes from. Notice in verse 13 if he trust to his own righteousness, and commit iniquity, all his righteousness will not be remembered. Do you know that there are two types of righteousness in scripture? One is by faith and one is by works. To which one is God referring to here? It is said that because of this scripture, men would commit all types of sin, and just before they would die they would do something righteous so that their wickedness would not be remembered. That is a mockery.

Are you aware that God said that no man is righteous. This scripture is not saying a man is righteous. Romans 3:10.

 

[childeye]

The whole point is that he could be cast off. He beats his body into submission so that he is not cast off. This, among others, shows that Paul didn't believe in OSAS.

27 But I keep under my body, and bring it into subjection: lest that by any means, when I have preached to others, I myself should be a castaway. (1Co 9:27 KJV)

Yes Butch5 I agree he says he could be a castaway if he doesn't bring his body into subjection. I get your point. But since I don't have a OSAS background I don't care. To me, if I were to argue the OSAS stand point I would simply say he is fulfilling what he has to do according to what God leads him to do. We all fight our flesh. It's a matter of circumstance. If I were to argue the non-OSAS position I would say Jesus can blot out someone's name out of the book of life. That however is arguing the exception to the rule. Exodus 32:33.