Please read post 138.
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Desire to be a vessel of honor unto the Lord Jesus Christ?
Join For His Glory for a discussion on how
https://christianforums.net/threads/a-vessel-of-honor.110278/
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Taking the time to pray? Christ is the answer in times of need
https://christianforums.net/threads/psalm-70-1-save-me-o-god-lord-help-me-now.108509/
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Why is there so much resistance to the eternal security of the believer?
- Thread starter Malachi
- Start date
Please read post 138
Please read post 138.
- Jun 13, 2014
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childeye,
I do wish you would not do this combined kind of response as it amounts to giving your own opinion and not addressing the issues Malachi, JLB, Stan and I raised. If you don't have the time to address the points raised by each of those posters, please choose one and address the specifics.
Then we can deal with exegesis and meaning of the texts, rather than have to deal with your 'I believe', which is a personal opinion that has no more validity than my personal opinion.
Oz
- Jun 13, 2014
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Your post 138 gives your opinion but it does not deal with the issues I'm raising.
Malachi
Member
- Nov 6, 2014
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- Thread starter
- #146
You are confusing innocence with righteousness. Righteousness for Adam and Eve would have been (a) absolutely no communication with the Devil and (b) absolute obedience to God. Therefore the fleeting innocence of the first pair has nothing to do with our righteousness as believers.
It is Adam and Eve who sinned, so there is no "we" as applied to the rest of mankind. The human race was infected with the virus of sin and its result, which is death.
You won't find this teaching in Scripture. The "flesh" is under condemndation, therefore we need the imputed righteousness of Christ. Since our righteousness is "filthy rags" there is no restoring filthy rags. They are fit to be burned.
We are justified by faith, as you will see in Scripture, not as you have stated.
The Garden of Eden has nothing to do with imputed righteousness. To sum up, you are putting together an imaginary scenario connected with Adam and Eve and the Garden and salvation. We need to present Bible Truth, not imaginary things.
Butch5
Member
- Jul 16, 2012
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Here are quotes from the first 300 years of Christianity from all over the region. This shows what the Church believed form the beginning.
Letter of Barnabas AD 70-130
For there remains more than what is yet seen to be accomplished, since it is written “Praise not any man before his death; ” and again, “Be thou faithful unto death, and I will give thee a crown of life.” And the Lord also says, “He that endureth to the end, the same shall be saved.” Let them imitate the Lord, who at the very time of His passion was not more proud, but more humble.
Early Church Fathers - – Ante-Nicene Fathers: The Writings of the Fathers Down To A.D. 325.
Second Clement 95-140 AD
Let us therefore repent from the whole heart, that no one of us perish by the way. For if we have commandments that we should also practice this, to draw away men from idols and instruct them, how much more ought a soul already knowing God not to perish! Let us therefore assist one another that we may also lead up those weak as to what is good, in order that all may be saved;
Early Church Fathers - – Ante-Nicene Fathers: The Writings of the Fathers Down To A.D. 325.
Shepard of Hermas 100-50 Ad.
“Listen,” he said: “they whose branches were found withered and moth-eaten are the apostates and traitors of the Church, who have blasphemed the Lord in their sins, and have, moreover, been ashamed of the name of the Lord by which they were called. These, therefore, at the end were lost unto God
Early Church Fathers - – Ante-Nicene Fathers: The Writings of the Fathers Down To A.D. 325.
Justin Martyr 160 AD.
And I hold, further, that such as have confessed and known this man to be Christ, yet who have gone back from some cause to the legal dispensation, and have denied that this man is Christ, and have repented not before death, shall by no means be saved.
Early Church Fathers - – Ante-Nicene Fathers: The Writings of the Fathers Down To A.D. 325.
Irenaeus 180 Ad.
For if these men of old time, who preceded us in the gifts [bestowed upon them], and for whom the Son of God had not yet suffered, when they committed any sin and served fleshly lusts, were rendered objects of such disgrace, what shall the men of the present day suffer, who have despised the Lord’s coming, and become the slaves of their own lusts? And truly the death of the Lord became [the means of] healing and remission of sins to the former, but Christ shall not die again in behalf of those who now commit sin, for death shall no more have dominion over Him; but the Son shall come in the glory of the Father, requiring from His stewards and dispensers the money which He had entrusted to them, with usury; and from those to whom He had given most shall He demand most. We ought not, therefore, as that presbyter remarks, to be puffed up, nor be severe upon those of old time, but ought ourselves to fear, lest perchance, after [we have come to] the knowledge of Christ, if we do things displeasing to God, we obtain no further forgiveness of sins, but be shut out from His kingdom. And therefore it was that Paul said, “For if [God] spared not the natural branches, [take heed] lest He also spare not thee, who, when thou wert a wild olive tree, wert grafted into the fatness of the olive tree, and wert made a partaker of its fatness.”
Early Church Fathers - – Ante-Nicene Fathers: The Writings of the Fathers Down To A.D. 325.
Irenaeus 180 AD.
3. For as, among men, those sons who disobey their fathers, being disinherited, are still their sons in the course of nature, but by law are disinherited, for they do not become the heirs of their natural parents; so in the same way is it with God, — those who do not obey Him being disinherited by Him, have ceased to be His sons.
Early Church Fathers - – Ante-Nicene Fathers: The Writings of the Fathers Down To A.D. 325.
Clement of Alexandria 190 Ad.
But a friend proves himself such not by one gift, but by long intimacy. For it is neither the faith, nor the love, nor the hope, nor the endurance of one day, but “he that endureth to the end shall be saved.”
Early Church Fathers - – Ante-Nicene Fathers: The Writings of the Fathers Down To A.D. 325.
Tertullian 198 AD
No one is wise, no one is faithful, no one excels in dignity, but the Christian; and no one is a Christian but he who perseveres even to the end
Early Church Fathers - – Ante-Nicene Fathers: The Writings of the Fathers Down To A.D. 325.
Tertullians 198 AD.
But the world returned unto sin; in which point baptism would ill be compared to the deluge. And so it is destined to fire; just as the man too is, who after baptism renews his sins: so that this also ought to be accepted as a sign for our admonition.
Early Church Fathers - – Ante-Nicene Fathers: The Writings of the Fathers Down To A.D. 325.
Origen 245 AD.
For all those, by denying the true Christ, and by introducing or following another—although there is no other at all—leave themselves no hope or salvation; not otherwise than they who have denied Christ before men, who must needs be denied by Christ; no consideration for them being made from their previous conversation, or feeling, or dignity, equally as they themselves have dared to do away with Christ, that is, their own salvation, they are condemned by the short sentence of this kind, because it was manifestly said by the Lord, “Whosoever shall deny me before men, I also will deny him before my Father which is in heaven.”
Early Church Fathers - – Ante-Nicene Fathers: The Writings of the Fathers Down To A.D. 325.
Cyprian 250 AD.
For there remains more than what is yet seen to be accomplished, since it is written “Praise not any man before his death; ” and again, “Be thou faithful unto death, and I will give thee a crown of life.” And the Lord also says, “He that endureth to the end, the same shall be saved.” Let them imitate the Lord, who at the very time of His passion was not more proud, but more humble.
Early Church Fathers - – Ante-Nicene Fathers: The Writings of the Fathers Down To A.D. 325.
On the subject of rebaptism 257 AD.
As to one who again denies Christ no special previous standing can be effective to him for salvation. For anyone of us will hold it necessary that whatever is the last thing to be found in a man in this respect that is where he will be judged. All of those things he has previously done are wiped away and obliterated.
Apostolic Constitutions 300's AD.
He who sins after Baptism, unless he repents and forsakes his sins will be condemned to Gehenna.
Letter of Barnabas AD 70-130
For there remains more than what is yet seen to be accomplished, since it is written “Praise not any man before his death; ” and again, “Be thou faithful unto death, and I will give thee a crown of life.” And the Lord also says, “He that endureth to the end, the same shall be saved.” Let them imitate the Lord, who at the very time of His passion was not more proud, but more humble.
Early Church Fathers - – Ante-Nicene Fathers: The Writings of the Fathers Down To A.D. 325.
Second Clement 95-140 AD
Let us therefore repent from the whole heart, that no one of us perish by the way. For if we have commandments that we should also practice this, to draw away men from idols and instruct them, how much more ought a soul already knowing God not to perish! Let us therefore assist one another that we may also lead up those weak as to what is good, in order that all may be saved;
Early Church Fathers - – Ante-Nicene Fathers: The Writings of the Fathers Down To A.D. 325.
Shepard of Hermas 100-50 Ad.
“Listen,” he said: “they whose branches were found withered and moth-eaten are the apostates and traitors of the Church, who have blasphemed the Lord in their sins, and have, moreover, been ashamed of the name of the Lord by which they were called. These, therefore, at the end were lost unto God
Early Church Fathers - – Ante-Nicene Fathers: The Writings of the Fathers Down To A.D. 325.
Justin Martyr 160 AD.
And I hold, further, that such as have confessed and known this man to be Christ, yet who have gone back from some cause to the legal dispensation, and have denied that this man is Christ, and have repented not before death, shall by no means be saved.
Early Church Fathers - – Ante-Nicene Fathers: The Writings of the Fathers Down To A.D. 325.
Irenaeus 180 Ad.
For if these men of old time, who preceded us in the gifts [bestowed upon them], and for whom the Son of God had not yet suffered, when they committed any sin and served fleshly lusts, were rendered objects of such disgrace, what shall the men of the present day suffer, who have despised the Lord’s coming, and become the slaves of their own lusts? And truly the death of the Lord became [the means of] healing and remission of sins to the former, but Christ shall not die again in behalf of those who now commit sin, for death shall no more have dominion over Him; but the Son shall come in the glory of the Father, requiring from His stewards and dispensers the money which He had entrusted to them, with usury; and from those to whom He had given most shall He demand most. We ought not, therefore, as that presbyter remarks, to be puffed up, nor be severe upon those of old time, but ought ourselves to fear, lest perchance, after [we have come to] the knowledge of Christ, if we do things displeasing to God, we obtain no further forgiveness of sins, but be shut out from His kingdom. And therefore it was that Paul said, “For if [God] spared not the natural branches, [take heed] lest He also spare not thee, who, when thou wert a wild olive tree, wert grafted into the fatness of the olive tree, and wert made a partaker of its fatness.”
Early Church Fathers - – Ante-Nicene Fathers: The Writings of the Fathers Down To A.D. 325.
Irenaeus 180 AD.
3. For as, among men, those sons who disobey their fathers, being disinherited, are still their sons in the course of nature, but by law are disinherited, for they do not become the heirs of their natural parents; so in the same way is it with God, — those who do not obey Him being disinherited by Him, have ceased to be His sons.
Early Church Fathers - – Ante-Nicene Fathers: The Writings of the Fathers Down To A.D. 325.
Clement of Alexandria 190 Ad.
But a friend proves himself such not by one gift, but by long intimacy. For it is neither the faith, nor the love, nor the hope, nor the endurance of one day, but “he that endureth to the end shall be saved.”
Early Church Fathers - – Ante-Nicene Fathers: The Writings of the Fathers Down To A.D. 325.
Tertullian 198 AD
No one is wise, no one is faithful, no one excels in dignity, but the Christian; and no one is a Christian but he who perseveres even to the end
Early Church Fathers - – Ante-Nicene Fathers: The Writings of the Fathers Down To A.D. 325.
Tertullians 198 AD.
But the world returned unto sin; in which point baptism would ill be compared to the deluge. And so it is destined to fire; just as the man too is, who after baptism renews his sins: so that this also ought to be accepted as a sign for our admonition.
Early Church Fathers - – Ante-Nicene Fathers: The Writings of the Fathers Down To A.D. 325.
Origen 245 AD.
For all those, by denying the true Christ, and by introducing or following another—although there is no other at all—leave themselves no hope or salvation; not otherwise than they who have denied Christ before men, who must needs be denied by Christ; no consideration for them being made from their previous conversation, or feeling, or dignity, equally as they themselves have dared to do away with Christ, that is, their own salvation, they are condemned by the short sentence of this kind, because it was manifestly said by the Lord, “Whosoever shall deny me before men, I also will deny him before my Father which is in heaven.”
Early Church Fathers - – Ante-Nicene Fathers: The Writings of the Fathers Down To A.D. 325.
Cyprian 250 AD.
For there remains more than what is yet seen to be accomplished, since it is written “Praise not any man before his death; ” and again, “Be thou faithful unto death, and I will give thee a crown of life.” And the Lord also says, “He that endureth to the end, the same shall be saved.” Let them imitate the Lord, who at the very time of His passion was not more proud, but more humble.
Early Church Fathers - – Ante-Nicene Fathers: The Writings of the Fathers Down To A.D. 325.
On the subject of rebaptism 257 AD.
As to one who again denies Christ no special previous standing can be effective to him for salvation. For anyone of us will hold it necessary that whatever is the last thing to be found in a man in this respect that is where he will be judged. All of those things he has previously done are wiped away and obliterated.
Apostolic Constitutions 300's AD.
He who sins after Baptism, unless he repents and forsakes his sins will be condemned to Gehenna.
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The believers that Don't continue to believe, will question their eternal life and will not KNOW(perfect tense).
They think they are on "stand by" and don't realize that they have a confirmed ticket.
But a couple questions on your Greek.
Does the present tense in the Greek ALWAYS indicate continuing action?. And do you see a purpose clause in 1 John 5:13?
It would be akin to John 3:16~~
16“For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that(the purpose) whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life.
We have the present tense(participle,not verb) in this verse. It is stating the purpose, not the action of an individual person.
In post 130 you asked if this imputed righteousness was adequate enough or not. As there are semantics, after reading the provided explanation I could only honestly answer yes and no. I tried several times to try and explain why and why not, but it got too complicated. So I decided to say how and why I believe imputed righteousness comes through belief in Christ. The explanation you provided doesn't answer anything. For example this: But upon confession of one's own sin and faith in Christ's death and resurrection, the sinner is justified and counted as having the righteousness of Christ. Why?
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4 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted the heavenly gift, and have become partakers of the Holy Spirit,
5 and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come,
6 if they fall away, to renew them again to repentance, since they crucify again for themselves the Son of God, and put Him to an open shame.
7 For the earth which drinks in the rain that often comes upon it, and bears herbs useful for those by whom it is cultivated, receives blessing from God;
8 but if it bears thorns and briars, it is rejected and near to being cursed, whose end is to be burned.
9 But, beloved, we are confident of better things concerning you, yes, things that accompany salvation, though we speak in this manner.
Hebrews 6:4-9
Here we see the parabolic analogy of those who have been given the Holy Spirit through the new birth, and the result of those who bear good fruit,[righteousness] and the result of those who bring forth thorns and briars [unrighteousness].
For the earth which drinks in the rain that often comes upon it, and bears herbs useful for those by whom it is cultivated, receives blessing from God;
Earth is the persons heart.
The rain is the Holy Spirit.
...but if it bears thorns and briars, it is rejected and near to being cursed, whose end is to be burned.
JLB
5 and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come,
6 if they fall away, to renew them again to repentance, since they crucify again for themselves the Son of God, and put Him to an open shame.
7 For the earth which drinks in the rain that often comes upon it, and bears herbs useful for those by whom it is cultivated, receives blessing from God;
8 but if it bears thorns and briars, it is rejected and near to being cursed, whose end is to be burned.
9 But, beloved, we are confident of better things concerning you, yes, things that accompany salvation, though we speak in this manner.
Hebrews 6:4-9
Here we see the parabolic analogy of those who have been given the Holy Spirit through the new birth, and the result of those who bear good fruit,[righteousness] and the result of those who bring forth thorns and briars [unrighteousness].
For the earth which drinks in the rain that often comes upon it, and bears herbs useful for those by whom it is cultivated, receives blessing from God;
Earth is the persons heart.
The rain is the Holy Spirit.
...but if it bears thorns and briars, it is rejected and near to being cursed, whose end is to be burned.
JLB
There's no indication that God created Adam and Eve with unrighteousness. Adam was made in God's image and likeness. Adam was without sin and right before God. All things were created through the Word of God. That Word was the Light and Life of man. John 1:3-4. If there was something un-right with Adam then there was something un-right with God's Word. Adam was without sin and right before God. A) Absolutely no communication with the devil? This is easily debunked. Was God unrighteous because He had communication with Satan? Was Jesus? No. Besides that Satan communicated with them. Was there some commandment not to talk to Satan? B) Absolute obedience to God. There is no indication that they were disobedient before the false image was introduced. Look here unfaith in God = disobedience, therefore faith in God =obedience. Faith precedes obedience and unfaith precedes disobedience.
Yes they sinned, and sin was passed down to all men so it's we. If Adams sin isn't our sin then Christ's righteousness is not our righteousness. Romans 5:19.
Sure our righteousness is filthy rags because it isn't true righteousness as I explained. The weakness of the flesh pertains to our inability to accomplish the requirements of the law after being sold to sin. Romans 7:14. Romans 8:3
I never said we were not justified through faith in Christ's laying down his life. The difference to me is that I see sin as being preceded by un-faith so reconciliation has to come through faith. I am positive that a person can't truly be sorry if they don't know what they did wrong. Therefore I see that according to scripture what we did wrong was accept a false image of god.
Sin entered in through Adam, that happened in the garden. That's what scripture says. Jesus came to destroy the works of the devil, not the works of Adam. 1 John 3:8. Makes perfect sense to me.
Deborah13
Member
- Nov 30, 2012
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Paul had seen the Lord, spoke with the Lord, given all that the Holy Spirit power that there is. He was even given the authority to turn someone over to satan. He spoke and wrote with authority from God directly.
In order for Paul to Not keep the faith, he would have had to deny all the above things. If he had, he would have been apostate, just like the description in Hebrews 6:4-6.
I think, that Paul's battle against the flesh was very likely a battle against the Saul, who was an expert and perfect in keeping the Law. That may be part of the reason God chose him for the particular ministry that he had. He writes over and over about the difference between the old covenant and the new. Law vs Grace.
If he had ever given in to the Saul of the Law, he would have left the covenant of grace and had to deny all the evidence he had that Jesus was the Messiah, Savior, and Lord.
I don't know how to explain any better than that. I think the article 'the' is in the Greek. "I kept the faith." The faith of the Gospel Message of by grace through faith, not of works.
Respectfully, I see it is your opinion that this is my opinion. That's okay. It's all taken from scripture. I think you should use scripture to refute it and correct me rather than dismiss it as opinion.
Malachi
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- Nov 6, 2014
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- #154
I'm sure OzSpen will respond in due course, but to answer your question briefly, the answer is found in 2 Cor 5:21:For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him.
So according to this Scripture God makes an "unfair exchange" if you will. He put all your sins on Christ, Christ paid the full penalty for your sins, therefore God declared you to be righteous, and then He placed Christ's perfect righteousness upon you. This is God's amazing grace at work.
It does not sound fair, but that's what it is. God gave you and me an "unfair advantage" through what Christ accomplished in His death, burial, and resurrection. No man will ever be righteous enough -- perfect as God is perfect -- to enter Heaven. Therefore God gives sinners the GIFT of imputed righteousness, and the GIFT of eternal life.
Human beings do not really understand grace, therefore they resist it. But even some Christians do not understand grace, that's why they keep spinning their wheels.
I'm sorry Malachi, but that's not how I see it. Essentially it sounds like you are saying that we should accept that an innocent man be tortured and crucified so we can escape our just death.
I don't think you've thought this through. Here's what you should consider about God's grace. That God is so perfectly righteous that he Loves those who are lesser than Himself without condition. That is the grace and righteousness that is seen in Christ. And that is the covering/righteousness that God will impute upon us when we truly believe from the heart that God is like Jesus. 1 John 3:16.
The reason Christ dies for our sins is to save us from a cruel and unjust prosecutor. Satan is the accuser in heaven accusing men day and night before the throne of God. Revelation 12:10. Satan is the one with the power of death through the law. Christ pays the righteous requirements of the law in fulfillment of the law. Christ dies so as to take the power of death and the keys of hell away from Satan. Hebrews 2:14. Colossians 2:15.
God doesn't need a covering to cover our unrighteousness from His eyes as you imply. We are the ones finding fault with ourselves and each other because of the knowledge of good and evil. Genesis 3:7. We set standards for others that we ourselves can't keep, all in the name of a corrupt righteousness that comes from a corrupt image of god. We are the ones with a defiled conscience. Titus 1:15.
I was walking in despair because I hated myself and my burden was great. And my only comfort was that there were others with burdens greater than my own, and I loathed myself all the more.
Then a man came to me holding a cup filled with the blood of the son of God which had been shed through great torture. And he said, drink from this cup and you will be renewed and live forever.
And I saw judgment at the cup. For if this son of God suffered torture and death so that I might be spared from a cruel and merciless prosecuter, I'd better drink from it so that his suffering will not have been in vain.
But if it is to escape the righteous judgment that I have coming to me, I would rather die in my sins than be willing to harm one hair on his precious head.
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What are you objecting to in what I wrote? To what information on the Greek present tense of 1 John 5:13 (ESV) are you objecting and the purpose clause?
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Not true. At #138, you began the post with these words, 'I believe we were made perfectly righteous when....'
When you state, 'I believe....', you are giving your opinion. I am not giving my opinion of your opinion. I'm stating what you said.
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I'm sorry if my semantics were not intelligible. That's my fault. Here is the issue we face: 'There is none righteous, no not one' (Rom 3:10 ESV). When we face the judgment of God, how are we as unrighteous people going to make it into the righteous courts of God? We can't, unless we are declared righteous.
That's exactly what happens when every Christian has faith in Christ. It's a fundamental teaching of justification by faith, a core doctrine of the Reformation.
I think R C Sproul explains it beautifully in, 'Imputed righteousness: The evangelical doctrine'. Does this article explain the 'Why?' you are asking? If not, let's talk further.
Simply stated, the 'why?' is that I, the unrighteous, cannot enter the righteous God's presence in my present unrighteous state. Even though I've been born again, I still sin. How can I make it to glory eventually and experience eternal life now? I need to be declared righteous by God - forensically (legally). That happens in justification through imputed righteousness.
Let's know if Sproul's explanation helps or hinders.
Oz
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- Nov 23, 2012
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Hi Oz,
I believe that God loves us and his promise of a better life with him forever is true, then our response to that is that we love him too and we now have hope of something greater for all eternity.
That's the faith, hope, and charity I'm talking about.
If you confess that Jesus is Lord (loving God) and believe he rose from the dead (our hope of glory), you will be saved.
We do this by grace through faith.
They all go together.
You can't have one without the other.
I find it difficult to believe that a person can say, "I don't have faith in God anymore".
What they are saying is that they no longer have hope of glory anymore and they no longer love God anymore.
How can you no longer love God anymore?
What kind of love did you have to begin with?
What kind of hope did you have to begin with if you can just walk away from it?
People can acknowledge God, but to really love him is forever.
And he knows who those people are.
