Why is there so much resistance to the eternal security of the believer?

[Butch5]

Great scripture application Butch5. I submit that this scripture is not saying a man is righteous as in God dwelling inside of him in Holiness. Oh how I wish it could be understood what righteousness is to God and what righteousness is to man. Oh if it could be understood what wickedness is and where it comes from. Notice in verse 13 if he trust to his own righteousness, and commit iniquity, all his righteousness will not be remembered. Do you know that there are two types of righteousness in scripture? One is by faith and one is by works. To which one is God referring to here? It is said that because of this scripture, men would commit all types of sin, and just before they would die they would do something righteous so that their wickedness would not be remembered. That is a mockery.

Are you aware that God said that no man is righteous. This scripture is not saying a man is righteous. Romans 3:10.

Do you know what righteousness is? I don't see much Scripture for the things you are say.

 

[Butch5]

Yes Butch5 I agree he says he could be a castaway if he doesn't bring his body into subjection. I get your point. But since I don't have a OSAS background I don't care. To me, if I were to argue the OSAS stand point I would simply say he is fulfilling what he has to do according to what God leads him to do. We all fight our flesh. It's a matter of circumstance. If I were to argue the non-OSAS position I would say Jesus can blot out someone's name out of the book of life. That however is arguing the exception to the rule. Exodus 32:33.

Huh?

 

[Deborah13]

I don't see how this addresses being cast off.

Mat 10:33 But whosoever shall deny me before men, him will I also deny before my Father which is in heaven.
imo..
Because Paul had such revelation knowledge, directly from the Lord Himself, if he had not kept the faith, he would have had to deny the Lord who died for him. Paul's faith included all this revelation, power to do miracles by the Holy Spirit, etc..He would have become apostate.

 

[JLB]

One day it occurred to me how the OSAS church will tell you out of one side of their mouth that you can't lose your salvation, but tell you out the other side that you are damned if you return to the law for justification citing passage like this to prove their point:

"4 You have been severed from Christ, you who are seeking to be justified by law; you have fallen from grace." (Galatians 5:4 NASB)

I had people telling me in the law threads that the person who goes back to the law for justification will lose his salvation (true), but the same people telling me in the OSAS threads you can't lose your salvation 2. This duplicity was eye opening to me. Eye opening in being able to see how indoctrinations can run so deep as to hinder reasonable logic and sensibility in the people who are under the power of those indoctrinations. They are in effect blinders that rob people of sight outside of the immediate tunnel vision of their indoctrination.

Very true.

I guess Anton would say it something like - ... you have everything to lose!

Call it!


JLB

 

[childeye]

Do you know what righteousness is? I don't see much Scripture for the things you are say.

Thanks Butch5 for asking this question. I say righteousness is trusting God. To elaborate, I esteem Him as Holy and trustworthy of Character in that He shows His Love by sending His Son to die in our place, for our sins, when we were dead in our sins. 1 John 3: 16. Moreover I esteem him as the Spirit of Love/Empathy which is the righteousness in mankind. 1 John 4:8. John 1:4. Therefore I am righteous in that I Love God/Empathy with all my heart mind and soul and my neighbor as myself. Matthew 22:40. I would say all of scripture is about what I am saying.

Have you read post #108? In that thread is where I show how mankind first began in trust of God and how that trust was broken as mankind entered into sin. Perhaps you are not aware that mankind was deceived into distrusting God which preceded the first act of sin.

 

[Malachi]

Thanks Butch5 for asking this question. I say righteousness is trusting God.

Without meaning to nit-pick, we need to be clear about things revealed in Scripture. Faith is trusting and believing God, and righteousness is the gift that God gives to the one who believes, when He justifies the sinner by His grace. Righteousness is spiritual and moral perfection, and since all our righteousnesses are "as filthy rags" in the sight of God, He places upon us the "robe" of Christ's imputed righteousness. That is why God sees the saint as perfect and complete in Christ.

Therefore I am righteous in that I Love God/Empathy with all my heart mind and soul and my neighbor as myself. Matthew 22:40. I would say all of scripture is about what I am saying.

Once again, we are righteous because Christ's righteousness is imputed to us. And since it is only by the power of the Holy Spirit that we can love God and neighbor as we should, even the righteous things we do originate in God -- "For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of His good pleasure" (Phil 2:13).

This brings us back to why our salvation is eternally secure. Salvation is from start to finish a work of God, and purely because of His grace, and what Christ accomplished at Calvary. Eternal life is a GIFT (Rom 6:23), the Holy Spirit is a GIFT, salvation is a GIFT.

 

[JLB]

Salvation is from start to finish a work of God, and purely because of His grace, and what Christ accomplished at Calvary.

Salvation is from start to finish a work of God?

Do you mean God's work on our behalf, without our involvement?

or

The work that is from God for us to do, in order to receive the salvation that Jesus Christ accomplished for us.

The scripture says the work of God is to believe...

Jesus answered and said to them, "This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He sent." John 6:29

To me, this says the work from God, for us to do is believe...

Otherwise, one would have to believe that God does the believing for us?


Do you agree with this?


JLB

 

[JLB]

Eternal life is a GIFT (Rom 6:23), the Holy Spirit is a GIFT, salvation is a GIFT.

23 For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord. Romans 6:23

Let's consider the context, of verse 23, in light of the previous scriptures.


16 Do you not know that to whom you present yourselves slaves to obey, you are that one's slaves whom you obey, whether of sin leading to death, or of obedience leading to righteousness?
17 But God be thanked that though you were slaves of sin, yet you obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine to which you were delivered.
18 And having been set free from sin, you became slaves of righteousness.
19 I speak in human terms because of the weakness of your flesh. For just as you presented your members as slaves of uncleanness, and of lawlessness leading to more lawlessness, so now present your members as slaves of righteousness for holiness.
20 For when you were slaves of sin, you were free in regard to righteousness.
21 What fruit did you have then in the things of which you are now ashamed? For the end of those things is death.
22 But now having been set free from sin, and having become slaves of God, you have your fruit to holiness, and the end, everlasting life.
23 For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord. Romans 6:16-23

The gift from God is eternal life.

The way we receive this gift, is by faith.

Paul makes this clear, in the previous Chapter as he writes -

1 Therefore, having been justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ,
2 through whom also we have access by faith into this grace in which we stand, and rejoice in hope of the glory of God.
Romans 5:1-2

We are given the gift of eternal life, which is knowing God.

And this is eternal life, that they may know You, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom You have sent. John 17:3


This picture is clearly painted for us, in the Garden, where the sinless righteous Adam, was also given the gift of eternal life by knowing God and walking with Him in the cool of the day, as well as access to the tree of life.

However, Adam choose to obey unrighteousness and disobey God.

Likewise Paul teaches us the same principle here in Romans 6, as he says -

Do you not know that to whom you present yourselves slaves to obey, you are that one's slaves whom you obey, whether of sin leading to death, or of obedience leading to righteousness?


Paul says these words to those who have been made righteous, by faith in Jesus Christ.


JLB

 

[childeye]

Without meaning to nit-pick, we need to be clear about things revealed in Scripture. Faith is trusting and believing God, and righteousness is the gift that God gives to the one who believes, when He justifies the sinner by His grace. Righteousness is spiritual and moral perfection, and since all our righteousnesses are "as filthy rags" in the sight of God, He places upon us the "robe" of Christ's imputed righteousness. That is why God sees the saint as perfect and complete in Christ.

Malachi, I applaud your desire for clarity and I do not count it as nit picking. I want it to be clear to you where I am coming from and be able to answer why I hold the view I hold. Likewise I seek clarity from you. Not that it is your fault but rather that words can be misinterpreted because of semantic confusion.

Here's what you are saying or rather what I hear you saying. That we are not actually righteous, but Christ's righteousness is the cover for our unrighteousness or rather as you say our filthy rags. So that when God sees the saint he sees Christ. I hate to say this, but that is like white washing what is ugly, is it not? Or perhaps you are saying we are not righteous yet, but Christ's righteousness is imputed to us until we are out of this body of sin. That sounds much better but I'm only guessing as to what you mean. It depends on what you mean by impute as in how and why it happens. I have my own view according to my own personal experience and testimony. We may be saying the same things just differently. For instance if I say I am righteous because Christ lives in me, but there is nothing righteous in my flesh, that could be taken as a contradiction.

Once again, we are righteous because Christ's righteousness is imputed to us. And since it is only by the power of the Holy Spirit that we can love God and neighbor as we should, even the righteous things we do originate in God -- "For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of His good pleasure" (Phil 2:13).

And once again, it depends on what you mean by imputed as in how and why it happens when I believe in Jesus.

This brings us back to why our salvation is eternally secure. Salvation is from start to finish a work of God, and purely because of His grace, and what Christ accomplished at Calvary. Eternal life is a GIFT (Rom 6:23), the Holy Spirit is a GIFT, salvation is a GIFT.

I'm rather content sitting on the fence as concerns this issue. First elaborate on how and why Christ's righteousness is imputed and I will tell you, or rather try to get across how and why I think it is imputed. If you read post #108 it will help you understand where I am coming from.

 

[JLB]

I have my own view according to my own personal experience and testimony.

Please share.

This may clarify some "semantics" that we seem to have in this thread.

Here's what you are saying or rather what I hear you saying. That we are not actually righteous, but Christ's righteousness is the cover for our unrighteousness or rather as you say our filthy rags. So that when God sees the saint he sees Christ. I hate to say this, but that is like white washing what is ugly, is it not? Or perhaps you are saying we are not righteous yet, but Christ's righteousness is imputed to us until we are out of this body of sin. That sounds much better but I'm only guessing as to what you mean. It depends on what you mean by impute as in how and why it happens.

Excellent points.


JLB

 

[OzSpen]

Malachi, I applaud your desire for clarity and I do not count it as nit picking. I want it to be clear to you where I am coming from and be able to answer why I hold the view I hold. Likewise I seek clarity from you. Not that it is your fault but rather that words can be misinterpreted because of semantic confusion.

Here's what you are saying or rather what I hear you saying. That we are not actually righteous, but Christ's righteousness is the cover for our unrighteousness or rather as you say our filthy rags. So that when God sees the saint he sees Christ. I hate to say this, but that is like white washing what is ugly, is it not? Or perhaps you are saying we are not righteous yet, but Christ's righteousness is imputed to us until we are out of this body of sin. That sounds much better but I'm only guessing as to what you mean. It depends on what you mean by impute as in how and why it happens. I have my own view according to my own personal experience and testimony. We may be saying the same things just differently. For instance if I say I am righteous because Christ lives in me, but there is nothing righteous in my flesh, that could be taken as a contradiction.

And once again, it depends on what you mean by imputed as in how and why it happens when I believe in Jesus.

I'm rather content sitting on the fence as concerns this issue. First elaborate on how and why Christ's righteousness is imputed and I will tell you, or rather try to get across how and why I think it is imputed. If you read post #108 it will help you understand where I am coming from.

Is this explanation of 'imputed righteousness' by Christ to the believer adequate for you or not? What is correct or wrong with this explanation?

 

[Malachi]

I hate to say this, but that is like white washing what is ugly, is it not?

It is quite unfortunate, but Christians frequently consider salvation in "bits and pieces", hence your statement. Justification, imputed righteousness, the gift of the Holy Spirit, the New Birth, a new heart and a new spirit, the sealing with the Spirit, the baptizing by the Spirit, a new walk in the Spirit, the power of the Holy Spirit within, the anointing by the Holy Spirit, the gift of eternal life, election, predestination, sanctification, the indwelling of the Godhead, are all facets of salvation which must be kept as an integrated whole. Instead, we want to take one of two segments and discuss them to death. So once you take everything into account, there is no "white washing".

Or perhaps you are saying we are not righteous yet, but Christ's righteousness is imputed to us until we are out of this body of sin.

As I said before (perhaps in another thread) there are three tenses to salvation in Scripture. We are already righteous (imputed righteousness), we are being made righteous (progressive santification), and we shall be perfectly righteous (perfected and glorified). Once again, we take the whole picture into account, not just segments.

 

[OzSpen]

The eternal security of the believer is a fundamental Bible truth (1 Jn 5:13). Yet there is considerable resistance to this doctrine in many quarters, and at the same time many believers who really don't know the Scriptures are uncertain about something which should be absolutely certain. So why is there so much resistance? I believe there are at least two reasons, and perhaps you might find that there are several others.

The first reason in my esitmation is the opposition of the archenemy of God and of the Christian. Satan does not want anyone to know -- without the shadow of a doubt -- that their salvation is eternally secure.

The second reason is that Gospel Truth is not being preached and taught as it ought to be (in all its fulness), babes in Christ are not being discipled as they ought to be, and too many believers do not really understand their position in Christ. The point of this thread is to determine whether we clearly understand our position in Christ.

Malachi,

What does 1 John 5:13 (ESV) teach? 'I write [Gk aorist tense] these things to you who believe [Gk present tense] in the name of the Son of God that you may know [Gk perfect tense] that you have [Gk present tense] eternal life.

The aorist tense is point action in the past. The present tense refers to continuing action in the present time. The perfect tense refers to an action in the past with continuing results.

Therefore, the meaning of 1 John 5:13 (ESV) is NOT that somebody believed in the past and thus is guaranteed of eternal security no matter what he or she does after saying 'yes' to Jesus. The meaning of 1 John 5:13 (ESV) is that it is written to those 'who continue to believe in the name of the Son of God so that you may continue to have the result of knowing that you are continuing to have eternal life'. So, perseverance of the saints is better language than eternal security or once saved always saved, based on the verse you have given, 1 John 5:13 (ESV).

Why? Because the original Greek language of the text affirms that the Christians who continue to believe in the name of the Son of God will know that they continue to have eternal life. Thus, eternal life is guaranteed to those who persevere in the faith - they continue to believe.

Oz

 

[Stan1953]

I hate to say this, but that is like white washing what is ugly, is it not? Or perhaps you are saying we are not righteous yet, but Christ's righteousness is imputed to us until we are out of this body of sin.

Well that IS what 1 Peter 4:8 states, and is what God sees,metaphorically, when He looks at us.
Also Paul confirms that there is NONE righteous, Rom 3:10 (NIV), so our righteousness is ONLY found in Jesus as we accept Him into our lives.

 

[Rollo Tamasi]

Faith, hope, and charity, they all go together.
You can't have one without the other.
OSAS.
You can't argue this successfully.

 

[Butch5]

Mat 10:33 But whosoever shall deny me before men, him will I also deny before my Father which is in heaven.
imo..
Because Paul had such revelation knowledge, directly from the Lord Himself, if he had not kept the faith, he would have had to deny the Lord who died for him. Paul's faith included all this revelation, power to do miracles by the Holy Spirit, etc..He would have become apostate.

I'm not following you Deb.

 

[OzSpen]

Well that IS what 1 Peter 4:8 states, and is what God sees,metaphorically, when He looks at us.
Also Paul confirms that there is NONE righteous, Rom 3:10 (NIV), so our righteousness is ONLY found in Jesus as we accept Him into our lives.

Stan,

This writer puts it this way in, 'The Imputation of Christ's Righteousness to His People' (A.S.K. 2014):

God DECLARES US RIGHTEOUS, even when we are not!

Just as Christ’s righteous character was not marred when our sins were placed on Him throughout His life, it is important to realize that the actual righteousness of Christ is not really infused into our natures by the imputation of His righteousness to us. Being justified, that is, being declared righteous, is only a forensic righteousness that we possess before the Father. But the legal standing we are given is real. Even though we are sinners by nature, Christ has nevertheless reconciled us to Him

“in the body of His flesh through death, to present you HOLY and UNBLAMEABLE and UNREPROVABLE in His sight.” (Colossians 1:22)
Yes, in the Father’s sight, though we are nothing more than sinners, we are still declared righteous [that is, justified]. It is God who “justifies [declares righteous] the ungodly” (Romans 4:5). The apostle Paul taught that God justifies the ungodly, the sinners, the blameworthy and those who by nature are evil.

Folks, he means you and me. You and I know we are not righteous, but God calls us righteous. All who are “in Christ” are declared righteous by God — righteousness is imputed to us — even when we are not righteous in any way. It is our position “in Christ” that allows God the Father to call us holy and righteous.​

It is not an actual righteousness we receive when we are born again, but a legal righteousness before God to be able to enter his presence. The personal righteousness we receive is a continuing process, known as sanctification, which is progressive. We will not be fully righteous until we are in the Lord's presence. However, reconciled to God and able to communicate with the absolutely holy One because of imputed righteousness - forensic, legal.

Oz

 

[OzSpen]

Faith, hope, and charity, they all go together.
You can't have one without the other.
OSAS.
You can't argue this successfully.

Rollo,

Your 4 lines do not make sense to me. Would you please enunciate?

Oz

 

[childeye]

To Malachi, Ozspen, JLB, and Stan.

I believe we were made perfectly righteous when we were in a state of innocence, before we ate of the fruit of knowledge. Genesis 1:27. We began in a state of absolute trust/faith in God. Then a false image of god was implanted in our subconscious through subterfuge which caused us to question ourselves about God's integrity. Genesis 3:4-5. This corrupted our loving and trusting nature which was our Godliness. When we ate of the fruit we not only unwittingly accepted a false image of god. But we also attained a knowledge of good and evil, giving us the ability to choose for ourselves right and wrong through a mental deliberation of the knowledge of good and evil. This is why we believe in the dictionary definition of freewill. We can condemn and praise others for their actions according to this vain righteousness with no understanding of what true righteousness is. And with this we also condemned ourselves in hypocrisy justifying returning evil for evil.

When we believe in the Christ, we see a Love that returns good for evil, forgiving those who would even crucify him to a cross. To some this is foolishness. 1 Corinthians 1:18. But for those that believe, there is some remnant still in us of where we have fallen from. And with this we believe in the Christ when he is revealed to us. Matthew 13:12. When we believe in Jesus as the true Image of God, we are reborn, casting out the false god through a renewed faith in the Eternal Spirit that is God. Our righteousness is restored even as we carry our own cross forgiving those who would crucify us. And we do this because we are sincerely in repentance for ever considering that God was a liar and a tyrant. Through this we are justified in that we never deliberately thought God was a liar and a tyrant.

Hence righteousness is imputed when we believe in Jesus. He is a quickening Spirit. But this goes deeper because we now know who we are in Christ whereas in the garden we did not know.

For more read post 108.

 

[childeye]

Please share.

This may clarify some "semantics" that we seem to have in this thread.



Excellent points.


JLB

Please read post 138.