Why Jesus did not come to save everyone

[HisSheep]

So we sit, debating this nonsense amongst ourselves when the facts are right there to see.

I see what you’re saying, and I agree with most of it. Predestination really isn’t nonsense though. It has real and valuable implication to the believer:

1.) Strength against the tempter. (Might as well submit to God; it’s inevitable anyway.)
2.) Blessed assurance. (He loves me!)
3.) Comfort in the very worst of times. (He’s in complete control.)
4.) Patience when our witnessing fails (We sow seeds, He opens ears, changes hearts.)
5.) Don’t despair over the lost. (God is working His plan and He is just!)
6.) All glory MUST go to God. (He is Wholly responsible for salvation.)

Smaller, this stuff I’m saying is also truth. And it too is a truth that is too rarely heard in our churches.

-HisSheep

 

[rustydiamond]

There is no difference between an unsaved man and us, except that God has been merciful to us:


AMEN​

There are lots of differences as outline in the Bible. God's mercy is extended to all. There is no exception. However, we have responded to His mercy by saying yes to Christ, and His Salvation. With this reality, there are spiritual and moral differences that are live out in our lives.

 

[childeye]

Zain

Without freewill, there's no convincing me.

FC

On the contrary "your will", will be free when you are convinced. Convinced of what? God's trustworthiness. Not meaning to imply you don't trust God.

 

[childeye]

This thread is somewhat lost in semantics. God declaring the end from the beginning invites much fealty of terms. It seems to me we are not meant to take salvation for granted, so God has left us with the need to intercede for others and perervere. Complacency is not a fruit of the Spirit.

It must be by mercy that we are saved, but mercy is grace and yet men who are merciful can in a manner of speaking, earn mercy.

It does not seem like God would endure longsuffering with those He knows will never come to Him. Nor does it feel like love to count the unbelievers as hopeless and yet we know there will be some that will not come to the Truth, at least not while in the flesh.

Many of the verses that seem to contradict do not address this adequately. For God would have all men come to the knowledge of the Truth, yet He may want to show His wrath on vessels prepared for destruction. God releases Satan after a thousand years to once again deceive the nations yet He gives the Holy Spirit of Truth to defeat deception. These are doubtful matters for men, which only God can make clear in the end. We can only guess as we see through a dark glass. God after all is able to do all things, and words cannot describe His workings, that's why the letter is only a shadow of the Spirit.

 

[Davies]

HisSheep,

I've read enough Scripture to agree with you that God chooses, He works in us to will, and there is nothing we contribute to gain salvation. What I refuse to believe is that God randomly chooses one person over another. I firmly believe God is righteous when He chooses even if I don't know why. I think you stated as much in your last post.

Since there is plain Scripture, I won't talk about it any more which should satisfy smaller.

Thank you for your patience with me.

- Davies

 

[Hitch]

HisSheep,

I've read enough Scripture to agree with you that God chooses, He works in us to will, and there is nothing we contribute to gain salvation. What I refuse to believe is that God randomly chooses one person over another. I firmly believe God is righteous when He chooses even if I don't know why. I think you stated as much in your last post.

Since there is plain Scripture, I won't talk about it any more which should satisfy smaller.

Thank you for your patience with me.

- Davies

Randomly?

 

[Hitch]

There are lots of differences as outline in the Bible. God's mercy is extended to all. There is no exception. However, we have responded to His mercy by saying yes to Christ, and His Salvation. With this reality, there are spiritual and moral differences that are live out in our lives.

Of course ,what was I thinking?


Romans 9;18 Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy,

 

[Eventide]

That True Light...

The scriptures do not teach that men choose God.. they teach that men trust in God after hearing the gospel of their salvation, and that after they believe they are sealed (by God) with the Holy Spirit of promise which is the earnest of our inheritance in Him unto the praise of His glory..

The same scriptures tell us plainly that He is that true light which lighteth every man that comes into the world.. although for some reason many think that God gives them some special 'irresistable' call while not affording this same grace to all men.. it's nonsense.

The conditions for God choosing are also told plainly in the scriptures.. that He has from the beginning chosen us to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth.. there it is again.. the truth is believed through the power of the gospel and then God seals them with the Spirit..

Romans 5 makes it perfectly clear that by the offense of one (the first Adam), that all men are under condemnation and that by the righteousness of one (Christ, the last Adam), that the free gift has come upon all men to the justification of life..

 

[smaller]

I see what you’re saying, and I agree with most of it. Predestination really isn’t nonsense though. It has real and valuable implication to the believer:

I never said it was. God does choose whom is 'allowed' to see/hear/believe in this present life beyond any doubt.

This does not mean however that determinist/predestination positions have an accurate view, particularly in 'how' they view themselves.

1.) Strength against the tempter. (Might as well submit to God; it’s inevitable anyway.)

There is what you do and there is what the tempter does in the believers mind. This is one of the weakest spots of determinism. The positions don't account very well for the 'other party' and tend to overlook that fact as it applies to themselves.

2.) Blessed assurance. (He loves me!)

See prior. How God views us and the other party are two entirely different matters. God is not just looking at you the believer or dealing with 'just you.'

3.) Comfort in the very worst of times. (He’s in complete control.)
4.) Patience when our witnessing fails (We sow seeds, He opens ears, changes hearts.)
5.) Don’t despair over the lost. (God is working His plan and He is just!)
6.) All glory MUST go to God. (He is Wholly responsible for salvation.)

Don't despair over the lost? Paul openly proclaimed that he desired all mankind to be as he was and worked 'diligently' toward that effort. And yes, he despaired over the 'lost.' See Romans 9:2 or 1 Tim. 2:1 in which we are commanded to pray for 'all men.' If the command to pray for all men is there, then so is the Sovereignty of God available to answer that prayer and for us to believe our own prayers.

Smaller, this stuff I’m saying is also truth. And it too is a truth that is too rarely heard in our churches.

-HisSheep

I've said before and will say it again. Determinism like most forms of theology is woefully short of an accurate view of themselves.

s

 

[savedbygrace57]

If Jesus did come to save everyone without exception, then he failed !

 

[Drew]

God chose Israel and NOT the Philistines, Amalekites or Canaanites.

I am not sure what you are saying. Yes, God chose Israel. But not for salvation (as should be clear from Paul's argument in Romans 9 to 11). So the fact that God makes certian "choices" that are not salvation-related is, I suggest, shaky ground from which to conclude that God makes salvation-related choices.

 

[Free]

Honestly though... NOT everybody is given the opportunity to come to Christ. Millions and millions live and die without EVER hearing the Good News.

Ultimately, we cannot really say what will happen to those who have died without ever hearing the gospel. We cannot say with certainty that they never hear the gospel.

God chose Israel and NOT the Philistines, Amalekites or Canaanites.

And by extension, why wouldn't this then apply to us? God chose a person through whom the Messiah would eventually come. It's not a matter of choosing the Israelites and not choosing the Philistines, etc.

 

[smaller]

I see what you’re saying, and I agree with most of it. Predestination really isn’t nonsense though. It has real and valuable implication to the believer

Hissheep, I accept 'predestination.' Perhaps not exactly how you may view it, but I do accept that God Himself OPENS OUR EARS to TRUTH in our hearts and HE ENTERS.

It is my JOY to share what HE has shared so FREELY and ABUNDANTLY with me.

Do you know the implications of having God on our side? I never stop thinking about God in Christ, ever.

1.) Strength against the tempter. (Might as well submit to God; it’s inevitable anyway.)
2.) Blessed assurance. (He loves me!)
3.) Comfort in the very worst of times. (He’s in complete control.)
4.) Patience when our witnessing fails (We sow seeds, He opens ears, changes hearts.)
5.) Don’t despair over the lost. (God is working His plan and He is just!)
6.) All glory MUST go to God. (He is Wholly responsible for salvation.)

Smaller, this stuff I’m saying is also truth. And it too is a truth that is too rarely heard in our churches.

I am obligated to share His Truth.

If you hear, you hear. If you don't you can't. You will soon enough.

enjoy!

smaller

 

[smaller]

This exercise in logic and reason is directed against determinism as held by some.

Let's say a determinist believer is sharing the Good News, that would be the Gospel, to a known group of unbelievers of any given size. There are many occasions given to share to a larger group of people in any believers normal course of life.

So, the determinist in the sense of a couple of gents posting in this board would have to state as follows:

God in Christ loves 'some' of you theoretically, or He may love none of you, or just one of you or even all of you.

I really don't know who, any or none. Can't really say for sure.

All I know as a determinist is that God only loves the 'elect' whomever it is that He chooses to hear and they will believe. So, whoever is that person, if you are here or if you are all are elect or some of you are the elect, you will hear that God in Christ loves you and you will believe, period. And the balance of you, some of you or all of you can't and won't believe because God won't let you. Oh, I know some, one or some or all of you MAY pretend to believe. I don't know that either. I have no way of knowing if you are really believing or if you are pretending to believe.

Now the determinist CAN'T witness any other way or they are LYING. Well, I guess they can LIE. Nobody is stopping them from LYING.

If a determinist was honest to their doctrines, could they say it any other way? Then that is HOW they should witness if they were honest to their doctrines. In HONESTY. I do know if they say God loves everybody in the room that MAY not be true. God may not love ANYBODY in the room. They really just can't say for sure one way or the other.

So, they really should at least try to say, GOD MAY LOVE YOU. You know, just to be HONEST.

Now, I would ask any of you as determinists, have you ever heard The Gospel witnessed that way? Honestly? I've listened to a whole lot of determinist preaching and I can't say that a single ONE of those proclaimers were THAT accurate to their own doctrines. So what then? Fibbing? Half truths? Not the whole picture, the whole truth?

Nope, not one. If anyone has a clip of a determinist preacher preaching to anyone but the choir in that way, link it up! Find JUST ONE who preached the Gospel TRUTHFULLY according to their positions. I'd love to hear the GOD MAY LOVE you statement. Just once, for kicks. I'd like even more to find one that says "God MAY Love you, I DO NOT KNOW."

I think I'd fall right outta my chair on that much honesty. It's kind of a miracle that there are any determinists. How many were brought in by the GOD MAY LOVE YOU preaching?

Is there one of you who was honestly converted by an honest depiction of the determinist position being preached?

?

s

 

[John Zain]

Smaller,

The genuine gospel is supposed to be delivered to everyone in total and complete honesty,
for God hates all (habitual) liars. So, re: telling the unsaved that God loves them ...
we have to follow our conscience concerning whether or not God loves all of His creation.

Then, who responds depends upon God's grace ... that's the "Calvinist" position.
It's really the "Lutherist" position because Calvin was just a minor student of Luther
(according to R.C.Sproul).

 

[smaller]

Smaller,

The genuine gospel is supposed to be delivered to everyone in total and complete honesty,
for God hates all (habitual) liars.

That is my exact question. How honest is the delivery?

Then, who responds depends upon God's grace ... that's the "Calvinist" position.

Most determinist positions will say that response alone can also be false, presumptive and not a saving response.

It's really the "Lutherist" position because Calvin was just a minor student of his (according to R.C.Sproul).

I was born and raised in a multi-generation Lutheran household. Determinism was the early fulcrum of many denominational splits that exist today.

s

 

[Michael]

Hello!

I have an honest question for you all -- I've been in and out of following God. I've been a believer my entire life and was baptized at 10 years old. Lately, I struggle to keep my ways but I ALWAYS feel this tug, or pull if you will and I have a strong sense that God is knocking at my door calling me back.

I've been having trouble keeping (and maintaining) my faith in the Lord. But, I always think of him and especially after I sin I immediately have my eyes opened to what I've done and feel ashamed.

God is practically always in my mind even when I'm doing (or going to do) something wrong. Even at work, on a sunny day, I think of the beauty of the weather as a testament of God. Everything I do he's always there in some capacity.

I guess my question is this ... is this some sign of predestination by God calling me back? Has he chosen ME to follow him? I'm kind of a rookie I guess compared to other believers. Many Christians have been following for years in strong faith yet I continue to struggle even though I want to do right even if I don't wind up doing it.

I really appreciate any answers that you can help me with.

Thank you and may God bless!

 

[HisSheep]

No one can EXACTLY say whether or not you are called, but what you describe SOUNDS like the drawing of the Lord:

No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day. (John 6:44)

The Greek word translated "draw" here is the same Greek word as "drag". He will not be denied. If He is drawing you, you'd best follow along. Read your bible everyday, even just a little. If what you read makes sanse, and compells you further then...

Welcome, Brother,

-HisSheep

 

[Eventide]

Hello!

I guess my question is this ... is this some sign of predestination by God calling me back? Has he chosen ME to follow him? I'm kind of a rookie I guess compared to other believers. Many Christians have been following for years in strong faith yet I continue to struggle even though I want to do right even if I don't wind up doing it.

I really appreciate any answers that you can help me with.

Thank you and may God bless!

IMO we're all called to the same thing.. repentance toward God and faith toward the Lord Jesus Christ.. it's the crossroad for every last one of us in Adam.. every one born naturally the first time through our parents..

We all face the same sign in the road..

If ye shall seek to save your life ye shall lose it.. and if ye shall lose it for Me and the gospel, ye shall save it..

There are no exceptions.. The Lord is still right here calling all of us back to Him.. for He is that true light which ligtheth every man that comes into the world.

Any Christian who has been in Christ for any length of time knows that this is infinitely easier said than lived.. and there will always be a struggle between the flesh and the Spirit.. that's not going to change.. we're not going to get any better and it can't get any better than CHRIST IN YOU.. that's our hope of glory.

I would say that your struggles are not uncommon and it's a good thing that there is a struggle, because it may be possible for a Christian to grieve the Spirit of God and even quench that Spirit.. and John tells us that there is a sin unto death (meaning for the believer in Christ).. perhaps the scariest thought in the world..

It's either Him or us.. because He told us that a man can't serve two masters.. that's infinitely amazing in itself because we know that He is infinitely good and we're shown to be exceeding sinful by that same true light.. and yet it's still a struggle for us..

Keep your eyes on the cross of our Lord Jesus Christ.. and we know the Way, the Truth, and the Life..

 

[John Zain]

... is this some sign of predestination by God calling me back? Has he chosen ME to follow him?

Sure, of course, God has elected you by His grace to walk in the Truth.
This is why you should praise Jesus every day ... and, believe me, the Lord thrives on praise!
Many who have been called, and continue to be called, really are blind to their election and calling
because they have been deceived by the mortal enemies of their souls (Satan and his demons).
Many have been deceived into believing some other spiritual alternative.
Yes, brother, praise Him every day, read some word every day, pray some every day.
God's grace continually be with you all the rest of the way ...