Why Jesus did not come to save everyone

[Davies]

Many Christians have been following for years in strong faith yet I continue to struggle even though I want to do right even if I don't wind up doing it.

I really appreciate any answers that you can help me with.

Thank you and may God bless!

Hi Michael,

I'd like to share a Bible verse with you that should give you encouragement.

John 12:32-33
New King James Version (NKJV)
32 And I, if I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all peoples to Myself.†33 This He said, signifying by what death He would die.

As others have shared, the struggle is a good indication that God has chosen you, and the work you have before you until the end of your days is to believe in Jesus. Sometimes is takes a lot of grace from God to humble us, and the description of your struggles doesn't sound any different than the most upstanding Christians that I'm aware of. Be encouraged because Jesus has paid for your sins, and love Him all the more.

- Davies

 

[cyberjosh]

Hi John,

As regards the OP, I wanted to say something briefly although I don't think I have the time to dedicate to fleshing it out. There are plenty of able posters already participating in this thread that can deal with this topic.

What I want to say, and this is mainly cautionary, is that you should not confuse purpose for result when it comes to Jesus' coming and atonement. If Jesus' atonement was not aimed toward and offered for all men then the work is incomplete, and Paul's exposition in Romans on the universal doing away of the atonement provisions in the law, as being superseded now by grace through faith in Christ, would also be baseless as representing a paradigm shift in God's approach to reconciling man, or at least His method of doing so. It would mean that for some men the coming of Christ is not relevant.

What is a separate consideration however is God's method of election, which none of us I think would presume to understand fully. The issue of whether all men will be saved is different from the question of whether Jesus died for all men. I here wish to distinguish between purpose and result. It certainly was meant to affect all men, for better or worse (John 12:32).

As a side note, from something I noticed that you mentioned in your OP about men having no excuse, I wrote an article recently on the effect of God's Word on all people and how none can escape it, for better or worse (with of course the intention to "choose life!"). You may read it here: The Affecting Force of Scripture.

It does not deal with the issue of election but rather man's response to God's Word (our part), in which free will is implicit. Paul is clear in Romans that God is not unjust to judge us for sins we chose to commit, even though He is sovereign in forming us as He pleases. Romans is the ultimate theological work of the NT, and in it Paul deals with both election/God's sovereignty and our free will (cf. Romans 7 and his conflict of wills between differing "laws" or natures in him).

I hope in some way you find this posting helpful in seeking an answer to your question.

God Bless,
~Josh

 

[Drummer4Christ]

Why everyone is not invited to salvation

In case you missed it, Paul spent 14 years (Ephesians 2:1) in the desert regions ...
being trained by the Lord in spiritual Truth ... before really beginning his ministry.

He says that man has no excuse for not recognizing God: in nature, in the heavens, and in his conscience.
I.E. Man has no excuse for not seeing there is a Creator God, and for not wanting to follow and please Him.

He also says that natural man is at enmity with (an enemy of) God.

He also says that natural man (who is perishing spiritually) sees the gospel as “foolishness” (1 Cor 1:18).
Now, just what does this have to do with any kind of free will?
Does the natural unsaved man choose to see the gospel as foolishness?

Others have said that it takes a miracle for man to want to follow God vs. following his own fallen nature.

I know there are plenty of verses which say that man has a choice (but they can be explained).
But, the Lord sees man's heart ... and He knows who He desires to save.
All of those “anyone”s who can believe the foolish gospel simply have been elected by God to believe.

All men are not created the same ... witness how Paul quotes Isaiah re: the potter and the clay.
Many verses tell us exactly the attributes of those whom the Lord desires to have with Him in heaven.
God saw Pharaoh's hardened heart and He knew what choices Pharaoh would make because of it,
so He merely hardened it further.

But, those who actually choose God ... have been given this desire, faith, etc. by the Lord.
Also, man appearing to have the freedom to choose warrants evangelists going to the 4 corners of the earth.
And the Lord Himself personally revealed to me the 2 reasons why He insists on the lost being evangelized:
(1) The elect must hear the gospel in order for them to respond to it. (Note: this is God's plan of salvation.)
(2) The non-elect must hear the gospel so they cannot complain at the Judgment that they never heard it.

Re (1): The illusion that man appears to be free to choose the gospel hides the ugly Truth (to us)
that it is God who chooses. Remember, Jesus said that He chose us and not the other way around.

But THE KEY to this whole deal is:
(a) Man has a terribly-flawed human sin nature, which destines him to be separated from God.
(b) God, therefore, owes no man anything, which is another ugly Truth (to us).
(c) God has the authority to do whatever He damn well pleases. Sorry for putting it so bluntly.

All in all, to me, the evidence weighs quite heavily on the side of foreknowledge, predestination, election, etc.

I think you've summed up freewill & Christ dying for all mankind precisely through predestination. (I'm not being sarcastic, by the way)

If we believe that mankind is inherently incapable of not sinning, than Jesus had to have died for all of mankind. The "choice" is whether or not you accept the free gift of salvation through Jesus Christ. As you pointed out from Paul, mankind has no excuse to not recognize God as the supreme being; Creator of the universe. The "choice" is whether or not you recognize God's supreme authority.

As you pointed out with Pharaoh, whose heart was already hard. Pharaoh did not recognize the power of the God of the chosen people, whom saved Egypt from starvation through Joseph. Yet, God used Pharaoh for His will. He pushed Pharaoh down, so as to lift the Jews up.

A man in his early fifties at my church, did not accept Jesus Christ until he was 35 years old. Prior to that he was an Atheist. His now wife, showed him the Gospel while they were dating. Only through the grace of God did this man have the freewill to choose to accept the truth. Yet, did God no less die for this man's sins before he accepted Christ? No. God giving His Son to the world is an absolute truth, regardless of what the former Atheist at my church believes.

God, through His supreme authority, voluntarily laid down his life, so as to lift ours up. The choice is whether or not man accepts this free gift.

 

[cyberjosh]

Davies beat me to the John 12:32 reference.

 

[cyberjosh]

I think you've summed up freewill & Christ dying for all mankind precisely through predestination. (I'm not being sarcastic, by the way)

If we believe that mankind is inherently incapable of not sinning, than Jesus had to have died for all of mankind. The "choice" is whether or not you accept the free gift of salvation through Jesus Christ. As you pointed out from Paul, mankind has no excuse to not recognize God as the supreme being; Creator of the universe. The "choice" is whether or not you accept God's supreme authority.

As you pointed out with Pharaoh, whose heart was already hard. Pharaoh did not recognize the power of the God of the chosen people, whom saved Egypt from starvation through Joseph. Yet, God used Pharaoh for His will. He pushed Pharaoh down, so as to lift the Jews up.

A man in his early fifties at my church, did not accept Jesus Christ until he was 35 years old. Prior to that he was an Atheist. His now wife, showed him the Gospel while they were dating. Only through the grace of God did this man have the freewill to choose to accept the truth. Yet, did God no less die for this man's sins before he accepted Christ? No. God giving His Son to the world is an absolute truth, regardless of what the former Atheist at my church believes.

God, through His supreme authority, voluntarily laid down his life, so as to lift ours up. The choice is whether or not man accepts this free gift.

Great post! See John, I told you there were capable people already posting in this thread. :D

God Bless,
~Josh

 

[John Zain]

If Jesus' atonement was not aimed toward and offered for all men then the work is incomplete, and Paul's exposition in Romans on the universal doing away of the atonement provisions in the law, as being superseded now by grace through faith in Christ, would also be baseless as representing a paradigm shift in God's approach to reconciling man, or at least His method of doing so. It would mean that for some men the coming of Christ is not relevant.
I hope in some way you find this posting helpful in seeking an answer to your question.

Hi Josh,

First, it should be noted that my OP was not in the form of a question.

Second, I don't believe Jesus came for all men, thus the Triune Godhead did mot fail,
and the work was not incomplete. It was all about electing/saving some, but not all.

Third, God did institute a paradigm shift, and it was/is called the new covenant
(which He so graciously promised). That He changed His method is obvious to me;
He said he was fed up with the shedding of sheep and goats, etc.

 

[John Zain]

If we believe that mankind is inherently incapable of not sinning,
then Jesus had to have died for all of mankind.

I believe that God didn't/doesn't have to do anything that man says He has to do.

I see Romans 9 as saying that God has no problem with choosing some and rejecting others ...
... just for the sole purpose of fulfilling His own purposes, pleasure, glory, etc.

I'll stress again that:
God owes no man anything ... all are deserving of separation from Him (Romans 5, etc.).

So, when God chooses to save some, He can boast about it and say He deserves to be praised.

I see several startling reasons for the so-called FREE-WILL verses,
and also for the WARNING verses to Christians.
But, I'm not necessarily saying that they come from the Holy Spirit.

 

[Davies]

I see several startling reasons for the so-called FREE-WILL verses,
and also for the WARNING verses to Christians.
But, I'm not necessarily saying that they come from the Holy Spirit.

Hi John,

I'm taking your words at face value here, so, if those several passages of Scripture that provide startling reasons for the "so-called FREE-WILL" and "WARNING" verses are not from the Holy Spirit, then who are they from? Or are you saying those who believe in those verses are just misrepresenting them? The verses like those found in Romans 9 and John 12:32 need to be carefully reconciled. To the point that smaller made earlier, evangelism becomes very difficult because you can't say God loves someone because you don't know if they are elect. You can say you think they are elect, but that's all you can say.

- Davies

 

[cyberjosh]

Hi Josh,

First, it should be noted that my OP was not in the form of a question.

Sorry, I suppose I meant whatever it is you are trying to discuss.

Second, I don't believe Jesus came for all men, thus the Triune Godhead did mot fail,
and the work was not incomplete. It was all about electing/saving some, but not all.

Can you provide any verses that tie Jesus' atonement only with the election of those to be saved? In the OT on the annual Day of Atonement the atonement sacrifice which was performed by the High Priest was done on behalf of all of Israel for all of their sins. That however did not speak as to whether the individuals in that congregation would be saved though (take Korah for example). We already know election is selective, but the atonement is the question. What do you base your view on?

Third, God did institute a paradigm shift, and it was/is called the new covenant
(which He so graciously promised). That He changed His method is obvious to me;
He said he was fed up with the shedding of sheep and goats, etc.

The thing is, the paradigm shift affected believer and unbeliever alike (the whole world), because now all are accountable because of what Jesus did (Philippians 2:10). God no longer overlooks the times of ignorance, and Paul in Romans included Jew and Gentile together in his exposition of how Jesus' coming and sacrifice effects us all. What is your take on that?

~Josh

 

[John Zain]

Can you provide any verses that tie Jesus' atonement only with the election of those to be saved?
In the OT on the annual Day of Atonement the atonement sacrifice which was performed by the High Priest
was done on behalf of all of Israel for all of their sins.
That however did not speak as to whether the individuals in that congregation would be saved though
(take Korah for example).
We already know election is selective, but the atonement is the question. What do you base your view on?

The thing is, the paradigm shift affected believer and unbeliever alike (the whole world),
because now all are accountable because of what Jesus did (Philippians 2:10).
God no longer overlooks the times of ignorance, and Paul in Romans included Jew and Gentile together
in his exposition of how Jesus' coming and sacrifice effects us all. What is your take on that?

Josh, I'd say the verses you are looking for here don't have to be there.
Ditto with a lot of other "clear" verses you'd like to see in Scripture.
God has not explained everything in Scripture, let alone explained everything clearly.

In the OP, I explained my take on why the free-will verses are in Scripture.
Also, Jesus spoke in parables a lot because the non-elect were NOT supposed to understand His teachings.

In the OT, God promised a NEW covenant where He and His people would have a personal relationship.
This was never even close to being the case in the OT.

I'm certainly not 100% sold on unconditional election, but I wanted to investigate it.

I have a HUGE problem with people NOT understanding the spiritual condition of man.
Scripture explains very clearly how man is TOTALLY filled with sin, and is at enmity with God, etc.
So, how can he all of a sudden miraculously choose God and His "foolish" gospel?

I see at least 5 major factors which are against man choosing God on his own:
1) man's hopelessly sin-ridden nature
2) Satan has blinded man's mind to spiritual Truth (2 Cor. 4:4)
2) Jesus taught with parables so the non-elect would not understand the Truth
4) God's "foolish" gospel, and it is foolish for a reason (1 Cor.)
5) Satan's continual opposition by putting thoughts into man's mind (whenever he feels like it)

I still am on the side of: "It's impossible for man to come to Jesus on his own!"

 

[John Zain]

To foreknow ... According to the Word Study Dictionary (Zodhiates)

G4267 προγινώσκω ... proginṓskō; fut. prognṓsomai, 2d aor. proégnōn, from pró (G4253),
before, and ginṓskō (G1097), to know.
To perceive or recognize beforehand, know previously, take into account or specially consider beforehand, to grant prior acknowledgement or recognition to someone, to foreknow.

(II) Used of God's eternal counsel, it includes all that He has considered and purposed to do prior
to human history. In the language of Scripture, something foreknown is not simply that which God
was aware of prior to a certain point. Rather, it is presented as that which God gave prior consent to, that which received His favorable or special recognition. Hence, this term is reserved for those matters which God favorably, deliberately and freely chose and ordained."

 

[Eventide]

I still am on the side of: "It's impossible for man to come to Jesus on his own!"

I would agree with this 100%.. and thankfully we do not need to think that this is the case.. because the Holy Spirit was sent into the world to convict the world of sin, righteousness, and judgment.. and we know that He is that true light which lighteth every man that comes into the world..

We see it in the first pages of the bible.. AFTER Adam's fall in the garden, the LORD called to him and Adam heard His voice and understood it.. Adam represents all of us and this shows us in a living and powerful way how God is working in man..

The Lord also made coats of skin (coverings) for Adam and his wife.. the mother of all living..

Paul tells us that by the offense of one (Adam) that condemnation has come upon all men and that by the righteousness of one (Christ, the last Adam), that the free gift has come upon all men to the justification of life.. and it's not our old life which is justified, but rather the life of Christ in us which is justified.

.02

 

[Elijah674]

I would agree with this 100%.. and thankfully we do not need to think that this is the case.. because the Holy Spirit was sent into the world to convict the world of sin, righteousness, and judgment.. and we know that He is that true light which lighteth every man that comes into the world..

We see it in the first pages of the bible.. AFTER Adam's fall in the garden, the LORD called to him and Adam heard His voice and understood it.. Adam represents all of us and this shows us in a living and powerful way how God is working in man..

The Lord also made coats of skin (coverings) for Adam and his wife.. the mother of all living..

Paul tells us that by the offense of one (Adam) that condemnation has come upon all men and that by the righteousness of one (Christ, the last Adam), that the free gift has come upon all men to the justification of life.. and it's not our old life which is justified, but rather the life of Christ in us which is justified.

.02

Christ documents that first, one must be Born Again. And this is only the starting point, but it IS THE STARTING POINT! Jn. 3:3-8

OK: Who is Born Again per the Holy Spirits testimony??? Here/in lays the answer to & for Salvation.

Acts 5
[32] And we are his witnesses of these things; and so is also the Holy Ghost, whom God hath given to them that obey him.
(did you get that?? if NO SUBMISSION, then there is NO BORN AGAIN PERSON! Surely all know that they can do no more than believe God as in Phil 4:13?? And that is the ENDING of 'MATURED' OBEDIENT WORKING Faith! Nah. 1:9)

And as stated by most here, (bottom/line) no one can 'change the color of his skin or as a leopared changing his spots'. (scripture!) All that they can do is believe in the plan of Salvation & give up!

Give up?? Surely, the Holy Spirit only works one way, & that is by His STRIVING! (see Gen. 6:3) And as back then & for mankind of today, not manny will accept Christ's Gift of CONDITIONAL REQUIRED 'MATURE' SALVATION.
(but anything else, is a cop/out! 2 Cor. 12:9)

Very sad, but forknowledge TRUTH! Eccl. 1:9-10 + Eccl. 3:15. Ask yourself, who of the Rev. 17:1-5 ones have changed one such false doctrine which has them prophesied as the ABOMINATION OF THE EARTH in well/past any 120 years of the Holy Spirits Striving for them to do so?

--Elijah

 

[Drummer4Christ]

I believe that God didn't/doesn't have to do anything that man says He has to do.

I see Romans 9 as saying that God has no problem with choosing some and rejecting others ...
... just for the sole purpose of fulfilling His own purposes, pleasure, glory, etc.

I totally agree. That's why I brought up Pharaoh.

I'll stress again that:
God owes no man anything ... all are deserving of separation from Him (Romans 5, etc.).

So, when God chooses to save some, He can boast about it and say He deserves to be praised.

Again, no disagreement.

What I mean is that Jesus' death covering all sins is another affirmation that mankind has no excuse for not acknowledging God.

Are you saying that Jesus did not voluntarily die for someones sin's until they involuntarily accept Christ?

 

[JMJ]

Romans 9;18 Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy,

No person deserves mercy. No person can earn God's mercy. Not even one. That is why Jesus Christ came to earth to die for all mankind. Mercy is a free gift from God. God loves every single person He creates and He gives each person enough grace/mercy to repent of their sins and to follow Him. No exceptions.

God is just in all His judgments even though some persons do receive more mercy than others and Saul/Paul comes to my mind as an example. All persons receive enough mercy/grace from God to become saved. Each person must choose to repent of her/his sins if s/he wants to take advantage of God's plan of redemption.

Joshua 24:15 And if it seems evil to you to serve the LORD, choose for yourselves this day whom you will serve, whether the gods which your fathers served that were on the other side of the River, or the gods of the Amorites, in whose land you dwell. But as for me and my house, we will serve the LORD.”


Romans 9:4 What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? Certainly not! 15 For He says to Moses, “I will have mercy on whomever I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whomever I will have compassion." 16 So then it is not of him who wills, nor of him who runs, but of God who shows mercy. 17 For the Scripture says to the Pharaoh, “For this very purpose I have raised you up, that I may show My power in you, and that My name may be declared in all the earth.” 18 Therefore He has mercy on whom He wills, and whom He wills He hardens.

God did not force Pharaoh against his free will to disobey Him. This passage is an example of a favored OT manner of speaking. (They attribute to God the actions that they themselves do.) Jesus uses another type of exaggeration in the following:

Matthew 10:35 For I have come to ‘set a man against his father, a daughter against her mother, and a daughter-in-law against her mother-in-law’;

Matthew 23:9 9 Do not call anyone on earth your father; for One is your Father, He who is in heaven.

Matthew 18:9 And if your eye causes you to sin, pluck it out and cast it from you. It is better for you to enter into life with one eye, rather than having two eyes, to be cast into hell fire.

Exaggeration is used in Scripture to stress important points or to get people's attention.

Pharaoh freely chose to disobey God's command.

Exodus 9:34 And when Pharaoh saw that the rain, the hail, and the thunder had ceased, he sinned yet more; and he hardened his heart, he and his servants.

Pharaoh hardened his own heart because he was angry and probably jealous that God had mercy on (favored) the Israelites instead of Pharaoh and the Egyptians.


God can do no evil.

Exodus 32:14 And the LORD repented of the evil which he thought to do unto his people.

Jonah 3:10 And God saw their works, that they turned from their evil way; and God repented of the evil, that he had said that he would do unto them; and he did it not.

The Scriptures seem to imply that God literally threatened to do evil. This is not possible because God is good and so God can do no evil.

Mark 10:18 And Jesus said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God.

To paraphrase: Jesus is asking the young man, "Do you actually believe that I am God since you call me good? You do know that only God is all good, don't you?"

James 1:13
Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man:

God can do no evil. He gives and takes life because it is He who creates life and He is always merciful and just in all His actions. So, when the Amorites were killed by the Israelites, it was best for the Amorites to be killed. If they went to hell after they were killed, they were mercifully killed before they could offend God even more than they had already offended Him. The greater the offenses against God, the greater the condemnation and punishment in hell. God's mercy in cutting short their lives prevented the Amorites from greater suffering in hell had they lived longer and continued to offend God.

Matthew 23:14 Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you devour widows’ houses, and for a pretense make long prayers. Therefore you will receive greater condemnation.

 

[Stormcrow]

All in all, to me, the evidence weighs quite heavily on the side of foreknowledge, predestination, election, etc.

Predestination and election were for the Jews: they were His chosen people to usher in the gospel. Even the 144,000 "elect" of Revelation are Jews.

You might want to look more closely at the context of these passages and to whom they were written before claiming that "whosoever will may come" is null and void. :bigfrown

 

[JMJ]

All persons who will enter into eternal life after death were predestined to eternal life before they were born. This includes both Jew and Gentile. Predestined is only used in a positive sense in Scripture. A person cannot be predestined to hell but he can be condemned to hell.

Ephesians 1:11-12 In Him also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestined according to the purpose of Him who works all things according to the counsel of His will, 12 that we who first trusted in Christ should be to the praise of His glory.

The predestined are also called the elect. Before the foundation of the world God predestined all the people whom He knew would be entering into eternal life after they died. Before the earth was created, God knew who would be condemned to hell and He knew who would spend eternity in heaven with Him. God has foreknowledge of all future events and He made His plan for salvation based on His foreknowledge of these future events.

1 Peter 1:2 elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, in sanctification of the Spirit, for obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace to you and peace be multiplied.

All people are called to repentance but not everyone will repent.

Matthew 3:1-2 In those days John the Baptist came preaching in the wilderness of Judea, 2 and saying, “Repent, for the kingdom of heaven is at hand!

The persons who do freely choose to repent and become born again are saved from their sins. These born again persons are now justified: their relationship with God has been made right. They are now called righteous.

John 3:3 Jesus answered and said to him, “Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.”

These born again people who continue in the faith (remain faithful to God's commandments) until death are then glorified after death. Not all born again people will continue in obedience to the faith/God's commandments until death. Many will later fall away from the faith and will then be condemned to hell if they do not repent again of their sins before they die.

Acts 14:22 strengthening the souls of the disciples, exhorting them to continue in the faith, and saying, “We must through many tribulations enter the kingdom of God

Luke 8:13 But the ones on the rock are those who, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no root, who believe for a while and in time of temptation fall away.

Matthew 24:12-13 And because lawlessness (sin) will abound, the love of many will grow cold. 13 But he who endures to the end shall be saved.

1 John 3:4 Whoever commits sin also commits lawlessness, and sin is lawlessness.

The people who only believe for a while are not approved to enter into eternal life. Only those believers who choose to believe/obey/remain faithful until death enter into the glory of heaven after death.

Revelation 2:10 Do not fear any of those things which you are about to suffer. Indeed, the devil is about to throw some of you into prison, that you may be tested, and you will have tribulation ten days. Be faithful until death, and I will give you the crown of life.

So, before the foundation of the world God knew which people, after the creation of the earth, would enter into eternal life after they died. He predestined to eternal life only the people whom He knew would enter into eternal life after they died.

The predestined, after birth, freely chose to accept His call and become born again and then freely chose to remain faithful to Him until death. Or else, if they later fell away through sin, they repented and became righteous again before death.

Romans 8:30 Moreover whom He predestined, these He also called; whom He called, these He also justified; and whom He justified, these He also glorified.

All are called. Some of these persons who are called to repentance do freely choose to reject the opportunity to become saved/justified/born again/made righteous. These persons are condemned to hell after death.

Some of these persons who are called choose to repent and become justified/born again.

Of these who do become justified, some will remain faithful until death and it is these who do remain faithful until death who are approved by God to enter into the glory of eternal life.

James 1:12 Blessed is the man who endures temptation; for when he has been approved, he will receive the crown of life which the Lord has promised to those who love Him.

Many believers fall away from the faith when they are tempted to sin because they freely choose to sin instead of freely choosing to continue to obey God's commandments until death.

Luke 8:13 But the ones on the rock are those who, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no root, who believe for a while and in time of temptation fall away.

The persons who are justified/born again and who do not choose to remain faithful to God and His commandments until death will be condemned to hell after death.

Who will enter into eternal life? Jesus teaches:

Matthew 19:16-19 Now behold, one came and said to Him, “Good Teacher, what good thing shall I do that I may have eternal life?”

17 So He said to him, “Why do you call Me good? No one is good but One, that is, God. But if you want to enter into life, keep the commandments.”

18 He said to Him, “Which ones?”

Jesus said, “‘You shall not murder,’ ‘You shall not commit adultery,’ ‘You shall not steal,’ ‘You shall not bear false witness,’ 19 ‘Honor your father and your mother,’ and, ‘You shall love your neighbor as yourself.’ ”

 

[John Zain]

What I mean is that Jesus' death covering all sins is another affirmation
that mankind has no excuse for not acknowledging God.

Are you saying that Jesus did not voluntarily die for someones sin's
until they involuntarily accept Christ?

Many people (e.g. Jews and Muslims) acknowledge God without becoming Christian.
(But, Allah is definitely not the God of the Bible.)

People "involuntarily accepting Christ" sounds like unconditional election.
This is getting deep.
I guess we're saying that Jesus died ONLY for God's elect.
So now some will ask, "What's the point in God's salvation plan through the gospel?"
One answer would be that God wants to clearly distinguish between His elect and the non-elect.

A very spiritual and intelligent man once told me that there's a problem with the "all"s in Scripture.
So, I have to agree that some of those "all"s refer ONLY to God's elect.

 

[Drummer4Christ]

Many people (e.g. Jews and Muslims) acknowledge God without becoming Christian.
(But, Allah is definitely not the God of the Bible.)

Jews & Muslims do not acknowledge God if they deny Christ (who is God).

People "involuntarily accepting Christ" sounds like unconditional election.
This is getting deep.
I guess we're saying that Jesus died ONLY for God's elect.
So now some will ask, "What's the point in God's salvation plan through the gospel?"
One answer would be that God wants to clearly distinguish between His elect and the non-elect.

You said so yourself that God neither "owes" nor is required to "prove" anything to mankind, so how is God obligated to distinguish between the elect & non-elect for mankind's sake?

A very spiritual and intelligent man once told me that there's a problem with the "all"s in Scripture.
So, I have to agree that some of those "all"s refer ONLY to God's elect.

So, John's Gospel should read:

God so loved the elect that He gave His only Son to the elect so that the elect should not perish but, have everlasting life. God did not send His only Son to the elect to condemn the elect but, so that the elect may be saved.

 

[John Zain]

Jews & Muslims do not acknowledge God if they deny Christ (who is God).
You said so yourself that God neither "owes" nor is required to "prove" anything to mankind,
so how is God obligated to distinguish between the elect & non-elect for mankind's sake?
So, John's Gospel should read:
God so loved the elect that He gave His only Son to the elect so that the elect should not perish,
but have everlasting life. God did not send His only Son to the elect to condemn the elect,
but so that the elect may be saved.

I meant the Jews throughout the OT.
Hasn't God done a whole lot of stuff (everything?) that He was never obligated to do, e.g. giving you His Spirit?
The only part of your John 3:16 that is difficult for me is "For God so loved the world ...".
But then, the predestination/election verses are difficult for others.

For me, it's much easier to view "whosover", "anyone", etc. to mean the elect
than it is to explain the predestination/election verses.