Why Jesus did not come to save everyone

[JMJ]

Romans 11:6
New King James Version (NKJV)
6 And if by grace, then it is no longer of works; otherwise grace is no longer grace.[a] But if it is of works, it is no longer grace; otherwise work is no longer work.

- Davies

Jesus restores mankind's relationship to God to each of us individually when we become born again. No one can do any works, either righteous works or works of the law of Moses to earn this grace from God.

Adam severed mankind's spiritual relationship with God when he sinned. No human being could repair this damage.

Only Jesus Christ who is both God and Man could be a Mediator between God and mankind and this is because only He is both God and Man. Only He could be a Mediator and so He did choose to pay the price (ransom) for mankind's redemption from mankind's slavery to sin which was the consequence of Adam's sin. Jesus Christ repaired the severed spiritual relationship between God and mankind. He saved us from the curse of continued slavery to the consequences of Adam's sin.

Now, each person has the possibility of inheriting eternal life. Before Jesus redeemed mankind, there was no hope or no possibility of inheriting eternal life. Now, we have hope of inheriting eternal life.

Titus 3:4-7 But when the goodness and loving kindness of God our Savior appeared, 5 he saved us, not because of works done by us in righteousness, but according to his own mercy, by the washing of regeneration and renewal of the Holy Spirit, 6 whom he poured out on us richly through Jesus Christ our Savior, 7 so that being justified by his grace we might become heirs according to the hope of eternal life.

Hope of eternal life is not a guarantee of eternal life. I hope to win the Publisher's Clearing House Sweepstakes. but my hope may indeed be in vain. :D

1 Peter 3:15 but in your hearts honor Christ the Lord as holy, always being prepared to make a defense to anyone who asks you for a reason for the hope that is in you; yet do it with gentleness and respect,

People who either knowingly believe or knowingly teach error lose their salvation. There is only one gospel of Christ, but there are many people who pervert His gospel and claim that their perverse teaching is the true gospel:

Galatians 1:6-7 I marvel that you are turning away so soon from Him who called you in the grace of Christ, to a different gospel, 7 which is not another; but there are some who trouble you and want to pervert the gospel of Christ.

2 Timothy 3:1-7 But understand this, that in the last days there will come times of difficulty. 2 For people will be lovers of self, lovers of money, proud, arrogant, abusive, disobedient to their parents, ungrateful, unholy, 3 heartless, unappeasable, slanderous, without self-control, brutal, not loving good, 4 treacherous, reckless, swollen with conceit, lovers of pleasure rather than lovers of God, 5 having the appearance of godliness, but denying its power. Avoid such people. 6 For among them are those who creep into households and capture weak women, burdened with sins and led astray by various passions, 7 always learning and never able to arrive at a knowledge of the truth..

Many people claim to be Christians (they have the outward appearance of godliness), but they do not live a Christ-like life. They will not inherit eternal life.

Titus 1:16 They profess to know God, but in works they deny Him, being abominable, disobedient, and disqualified for every good work.

2 Timothy 2:19 Nevertheless the solid foundation of God stands, having this seal: “The Lord knows those who are His,†and, “Let everyone who names the name of Christ depart from iniquity.â€

Many sinful people call themselves Christians and they claim that they will inherit eternal life, but they will not:

Galatians 4:11 I am afraid for you, lest I have labored for you in vain.

1 Thessalonians 3:5 For this reason, when I could no longer endure it, I sent to know your faith, lest by some means the tempter had tempted you, and our labor might be in vain.

 

[Davies]

I realize I'm beating a dead horse, and because I don't think we will part from our understanding of the Bible, this post is most likely in vain. I was reading an article, and the author provided some different Scriptures used to show a person is not justified by his own good works.

"For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness." (Romans 4:3)

"But to him that worketh not, but believeth on Him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness." (Romans 4:5)

"Even as David also describeth the blessedness of the man, unto whom God imputeth righteousness without works . . ." (Romans 4:6)

"And being fully persuaded that, what He had promised, He was able also to perform. And therefore it was imputed to him for righteousness." (Romans 4:22)

"Now it was not written for his sake alone, that it was imputed to him; But for us also, to whom it shall be imputed, if we believe on Him that raised up Jesus our Lord from the dead; Who was delivered for our offences, and was raised again for our justification." (Romans 4:23:25)

Here is the last Scripture I'll provide which shows that our salvation is not dependent on our good works but on the work of Jesus Christ.

Hebrews 10:12
New King James Version (NKJV)
12 But this Man, after He had offered one sacrifice for sins forever, sat down at the right hand of God,

You see, righteousness is imputed. A person believes, and righteousness is accounted unto him, not to him that works, but to him who has faith in the One who justifies the ungodly. God doesn't justify the righteous, and we certainly don't justify ourselves.

- Davies

 

[JMJ]

I realize I'm beating a dead horse, and because I don't think we will part from our understanding of the Bible, this post is most likely in vain. I was reading an article, and the author provided some different Scriptures used to show a person is not justified by his own good works.

"For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness." (Romans 4:3)

"But to him that worketh not, but believeth on Him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness." (Romans 4:5)

"Even as David also describeth the blessedness of the man, unto whom God imputeth righteousness without works . . ." (Romans 4:6)

"And being fully persuaded that, what He had promised, He was able also to perform. And therefore it was imputed to him for righteousness." (Romans 4:22)

"Now it was not written for his sake alone, that it was imputed to him; But for us also, to whom it shall be imputed, if we believe on Him that raised up Jesus our Lord from the dead; Who was delivered for our offences, and was raised again for our justification." (Romans 4:23:25)

Here is the last Scripture I'll provide which shows that our salvation is not dependent on our good works but on the work of Jesus Christ.

Hebrews 10:12
New King James Version (NKJV)
12 But this Man, after He had offered one sacrifice for sins forever, sat down at the right hand of God,

You see, righteousness is imputed. A person believes, and righteousness is accounted unto him, not to him that works, but to him who has faith in the One who justifies the ungodly. God doesn't justify the righteous, and we certainly don't justify ourselves.

- Davies

I agree with you that Jesus redeemed us through no effort/work of our own.

However, what about the following Scriptures which were also written to believers? They are just as true as the Scriptures you quoted:

1 Samuel 12:14 If you fear the LORD and serve Him and obey His voice, and do not rebel against the commandment of the LORD, then both you and the king who reigns over you will continue following the LORD your God.

1 Timothy 4:16 Take heed to yourself and to the doctrine. Continue in them, for in doing this you will save both yourself and those who hear you.

1 Timothy 2:12-15 And I do not permit a woman to teach or to have authority over a man, but to be in silence. 13 For Adam was formed first, then Eve. 14 And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived, fell into transgression. 15 Nevertheless she will be saved in childbearing if they continue in faith, love, and holiness, with self-control.

Jude 1:17-23 But you, beloved, remember the words which were spoken before by the apostles of our Lord Jesus Christ: 18 how they told you that there would be mockers in the last time who would walk according to their own ungodly lusts. 19 These are sensual persons, who cause divisions, not having the Spirit. 20 But you, beloved, building yourselves up on your most holy faith, praying in the Holy Spirit, 21 keep yourselves in the love of God, looking for the mercy of our Lord Jesus Christ unto eternal life. 22 And on some have compassion, making a distinction; 23 but others save with fear, pulling them out of the fire, hating even the garment defiled by the flesh.

Colossians 1:21-24 And you, who once were alienated and enemies in your mind by wicked works, yet now He has reconciled 22 in the body of His flesh through death, to present you holy, and blameless, and above reproach in His sight— 23 if indeed you continue in the faith, grounded and steadfast, and are not moved away from the hope of the gospel which you heard, which was preached to every creature under heaven, of which I, Paul, became a minister. 24 I now rejoice in my sufferings for you, and fill up in my flesh what is lacking in the afflictions of Christ, for the sake of His body, which is the church,

1 Timothy 5:8 But if anyone does not provide for his own, and especially for those of his household, he has denied the faith and is worse than an unbeliever.

Matthew 6:15 But if you do not forgive men their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses.

Hebrews 10:26-27 ESV For if we go on sinning deliberately after receiving the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins, 27 but a fearful expectation of judgment, and a fury of fire that will consume the adversaries.

How can these Scripture passages all be true?

Here are two Scriptures which seem to contradict each other:

Romans 10:13 For “whoever calls on the name of the LORD shall be saved.â€

Matthew 7:21 “Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven.

I will do my best to explain to you how I fit all of these Scripture truths into my own belief system, but I will start a new thread for it and pm you the link since this does not really pertain to the OP.

It may be a few days before I have time to do this.

 

[JMJ]

New thread is at http://www.christianforums.net/showthread.php?t=41267&p=620064#post620064

 

[Digger]

You see, righteousness is imputed. A person believes, and righteousness is accounted unto him, not to him that works, but to him who has faith in the One who justifies the ungodly. God doesn't justify the righteous, and we certainly don't justify ourselves.
- Davies

Faith was imputed as righteousness.
Rom 4:20 He staggered not at the promise of God through unbelief; but was strong in faith, giving glory to God;
Rom 4:21 And being fully persuaded that, what he had promised, he was able also to perform.
Rom 4:22 And therefore it was imputed to him for righteousness.

What is faith?

Heb 11:1 Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.

Rom 4:21 And being fully persuaded that, what he had promised, he was able also to perform.

Heb 11:7 By faith Noah, being warned of God of things not seen as yet, moved with fear, prepared an ark to the saving of his house; by the which he condemned the world, and became heir of the righteousness which is by faith.

Heb 11:8 By faith Abraham, when he was called to go out into a place which he should after receive for an inheritance, obeyed; and he went out, not knowing whither he went.

Rom 4:11 And he received the sign of circumcision, a seal of the righteousness of the faith which he had yet being uncircumcised: that he might be the father of all them that believe, though they be not circumcised; that righteousness might be imputed unto them also:
Rom_4:12 And the father of circumcision to them who are not of the circumcision only, but who also walk in the steps of that faith of our father Abraham, which he had being yet uncircumcised.

Abraham was justified by the WORKS OF FAITH as opposed to the WORKS OF THE LAW. A very big difference.

Jas 2:21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?
Jas 2:22 Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?
Jas 2:23 And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God.
Jas 2:24 Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.
Jas 2:25 Likewise also was not Rahab the harlot justified by works, when she had received the messengers, and had sent them out another way?
Jas 2:26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.



Gal 5:6 For in Jesus Christ neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision; but faith which worketh by love.

Circumcision was a work of the law and does not avail anything. Uncircumcision likewise does not avail anything. Works of faith avail everything! The just shall walk by faith.

It is by faith that the law is established in the heart thus the light shines from the inside out. A pure root will produce a tree that bears pure fruit.

This is why true righteousness does not come by the law. You don't try sticking good fruit on a defiled tree, that is just playing dress-up like the Pharisees.

Genuine faith purifies the heart.
Act_15:9 And put no difference between us and them, purifying their hearts by faith.

Genuine faith obeys.
Heb 11:8 By faith Abraham, when he was called to go out into a place which he should after receive for an inheritance, obeyed; and he went out, not knowing whither he went.

Thus obedience wrought by genuine faith also purifies.
1Pe 1:22 Seeing ye have purified your souls in obeying the truth through the Spirit unto unfeigned love of the brethren, see that ye love one another with a pure heart fervently:

Thus the doers of the word have a genuine faith and are purified but those who are not doers of the word remain defiled and self deceived.
Jas 1:22 But be ye doers of the word, and not hearers only, deceiving your own selves.

Therefore those who DO righteousness are righteous because they have a genuine faith that obeys from the heart resulting in purity.
1Jn 3:7 Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous.

Obedience to righteousness
Rom 6:16 Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?

Righteousness to Holiness
Rom 6:19 I speak after the manner of men because of the infirmity of your flesh: for as ye have yielded your members servants to uncleanness and to iniquity unto iniquity; even so now yield your members servants to righteousness unto holiness.

Holiness to Everlasting Life
Rom 6:22 But now being made free from sin, and become servants to God, ye have your fruit unto holiness, and the end everlasting life.



Those who simply believe grace is a free gift which you receive by some mental acknowledgment and that you don't have to actually do anything have their minds enveloped by a very dangerous delusion indeed.

 

[JMJ]

Quoted by Digger:

Those who simply believe grace is a free gift which you receive by some mental acknowledgment and that you don't have to actually do anything have their minds enveloped by a very dangerous delusion indeed.

In the Book of Revelation, these persons are called Nicolaitans.

Revelation 2:14-16 But I have a few things against you, because you have there those who hold the doctrine of Balaam, who taught Balak to put a stumbling block before the children of Israel, to eat things sacrificed to idols, and to commit sexual immorality. 15 Thus you also have those who hold the doctrine of the Nicolaitans, which thing I hate. 16 Repent, or else I will come to you quickly and will fight against them with the sword of My mouth.

They claimed to know God yet they also claimed that they did not have to obey God's commandments.

James and John both addressed the errors of the Nicolaitans:

James 2:20 But do you want to know, O foolish man, that faith without works is dead?

1 John 2:4 He who says, “I know Him,†and does not keep His commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.

Abraham was justified by the WORKS OF FAITH as opposed to the WORKS OF THE LAW. A very big difference.

Excellent point.

 

[JacobBoheme]

Regarding Romans 11:6. Romans is a valuable resource on salvation but I've had some trouble understanding certain parts and reconciling them with say the Gospels or James. I then started looking at commentaries and eventually came across "Ancient Christian Commentaries on Scripture, Romans" and things have started to be a little more clear to me. Here is some commentary on 11:6 for example:

"If we are all saved by grace, some might argue why is everyone not saved? Because they did not want to be is the answer. For grace, even though it is grace, saves the willing, not those who refuse it and turn away"
-John Chrysostom

"It is clear that because grace is the gift of God there is no reward due for works, but it is granted freely because of the free mercy which intervenes"
-Ambrose (Ambrosiaster)

"Grace is given not because we have done good works but in order that we may have power to do them, not because we have fulfilled the law but in order that we may be able to fullfill it."
-Augustine
​

This book really helped to give me a more nuanced understanding of Romans and I really reccomend it to all. After I read that I got the one James (the book that is often held to be in disagreement with Romans) and I saw that two can be be harmonized. It can be hard to do though that's why at one point even Luther thought of rejecting the book of James. Eventually the harmony kind of clicked with me though.

The writings of the early Christians are a gold mine of information. My favorites in terms of Bible interpretation so far has been Origin and Didymous the Blind.

 

[JMJ]

Regarding Romans 11:6. Romans is a valuable resource on salvation but I've had some trouble understanding certain parts and reconciling them with say the Gospels or James. I then started looking at commentaries and eventually came across "Ancient Christian Commentaries on Scripture, Romans" and things have started to be a little more clear to me. Here is some commentary on 11:6 for example:

"If we are all saved by grace, some might argue why is everyone not saved? Because they did not want to be is the answer. For grace, even though it is grace, saves the willing, not those who refuse it and turn away"
-John Chrysostom

"It is clear that because grace is the gift of God there is no reward due for works, but it is granted freely because of the free mercy which intervenes"
-Ambrose (Ambrosiaster)

"Grace is given not because we have done good works but in order that we may have power to do them, not because we have fulfilled the law but in order that we may be able to fullfill it."
-Augustine
​

This book really helped to give me a more nuanced understanding of Romans and I really reccomend it to all. After I read that I got the one James (the book that is often held to be in disagreement with Romans) and I saw that two can be be harmonized. It can be hard to do though that's why at one point even Luther thought of rejecting the book of James. Eventually the harmony kind of clicked with me though.

The writings of the early Christians are a gold mine of information. My favorites in terms of Bible interpretation so far has been Origin and Didymous the Blind.

I like reading the writings of the early Church leaders, too.

Grace is taken away from those who do not produce the good fruit that grace had empowered them to do.

Ephesians 2:8-10 (ESV) For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, 9 not a result of works, so that no one may boast. 10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them.


Should walk in them is a command. It is not a suggestion.

If a person does not do the will of the Father in heaven after grace saves him, (the Father's will is for the person to do the good works that God has prepared for him), he will not have a living faith and so he will not be approved to enter into eternal life after he dies.

Faith without works is dead faith and dead faith does not save anyone.

 

[HisSheep]

Grace is taken away from those who do not produce the good fruit that grace had empowered them to do.

Hi JmJ,

You are saying that God punished His own Son for the sins of some man…

…and THEN punished that sinner too?

…Some grace THAT man received!

Consider how often we are told in scripture that God “keeps usâ€:

…he leadeth me in the paths of righteousness for his name's sake… (Psalm 23:8)

…him that is able to keep you from falling, and to present you faultless before the presence of his glory (Jude 1:24)

I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes (Ezekiel 36:27)

Though he fall, he shall not be utterly cast down: for the LORD upholdeth him with his hand. (Psalm 37:24)

That’s only a few; there are scores and scores of them… Maybe hundreds.

He doesn’t save us for OUR sakes. He saves us for HIS OWN SAKE. Therefore, He will not fail in saving ANY of His own. What would the devil and his say if God were to fail in any thing?

Jesus prayed that the Father keep us. Jesus ALWAYS prayed according to the Fathers’ will, and you know what that means:

Holy Father, keep through thine own name those whom thou hast given me, that they may be one, as we are. (John 17:11)

If God looses ANY sheep... …even a stubborn sheep or a little sick sheep…. Then God is a Loser.

That’s not the God I know. The God I know saves to the uttermost all who come:

Wherefore he is able also to save them to the uttermost that come unto God by him, seeing he ever liveth to make intercession for them. (Hebrews 7:25)

Salvation doesn’t depend on how tight your grip is on God, but how tight God’s grip is on you.

That’s real grace.

-HisSheep

 

[JMJ]

Hi JmJ,

You are saying that God punished His own Son for the sins of some man…

…and THEN punished that sinner too?

…Some grace THAT man received!

Hi HisSheep,

God's gift of grace restores the spiritual relationship (that Adam's sin lost for all mankind) between an individual person and God at the exact point in time he is born again, and this restoration or reconciliation makes it possible for him to enter into eternal life after he dies. When he is born again, all of his own personal sins are also forgiven at that same exact point in time. But, he must continue in the grace of God until he dies in order to be approved to enter into eternal life. God's gift of grace gives him hope of eternal life. Many formerly saved persons who have returned to their sinful lifestyles are now believing in vain that they will inherit eternal life.

If a person chooses to sin mortal sins again after he has been born again/reconciled to God, he is no longer righteous and unless he repents before death he will not enter into eternal life after he dies.

Consider how often we are told in scripture that God “keeps us”:

…he leadeth me in the paths of righteousness for his name's sake… (Psalm 23:8)

…him that is able to keep you from falling, and to present you faultless before the presence of his glory (Jude 1:24)

I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes (Ezekiel 36:27)

Though he fall, he shall not be utterly cast down: for the LORD upholdeth him with his hand. (Psalm 37:24)

That’s only a few; there are scores and scores of them… Maybe hundreds.

Jesus Christ leads. We must follow Him. To follow Him means to imitate His obedience to His Father.

We must keep ourselves in the love of God by our obedience to His commandments.

Jude 1:20-23 (NKJV)
20 But you, beloved, building yourselves up on your most holy faith, praying in the Holy Spirit, 21 keep yourselves in the love of God, looking for the mercy of our Lord Jesus Christ unto eternal life. 22 And on some have compassion, making a distinction;23 but others save with fear, pulling them out of the fire, hating even the garment defiled by the flesh.

James 1:21-22 (NKJV)
21 Therefore lay aside all filthiness and overflow of wickedness, and receive with meekness the implanted word, which is able to save your souls. 22 But be doers of the word, and not hearers only, deceiving yourselves.

2 Peter 3:17 (NKJV)
You therefore, beloved, since you know this beforehand, beware lest you also fall from your own steadfastness, being led away with the error of the wicked;

He doesn’t save us for OUR sakes. He saves us for HIS OWN SAKE. Therefore, He will not fail in saving ANY of His own. What would the devil and his say if God were to fail in any thing?

Jesus prayed that the Father keep us. Jesus ALWAYS prayed according to the Fathers’ will, and you know what that means:

Holy Father, keep through thine own name those whom thou hast given me, that they may be one, as we are. (John 17:11)

If God looses ANY sheep... …even a stubborn sheep or a little sick sheep…. Then God is a Loser.

That’s not the God I know. The God I know saves to the uttermost all who come:

Wherefore he is able also to save them to the uttermost that come unto God by him, seeing he ever liveth to make intercession for them. (Hebrews 7:25)

Salvation doesn’t depend on how tight your grip is on God, but how tight God’s grip is on you.

That’s real grace.

-HisSheep

Jesus loses no sheep that His Father gave Him. The Father knew which persons would obey Him and enter into eternal life even before the world was created and so according to His foreknowledge of future events, He predestined the persons whom He foreknew would be faithful to His commandments and work righteousness until they died. The Father gave to His Son only the persons whom God knew would enter into eternal life after death. He predestined no persons to heaven whom He knew would fall away from the faith and not repent again before they died.

Saved people who do not continue in the faith until they die by obeying God's commandments are not approved by God to enter into eternal life after they die.

We must cooperate with God's grace (Holy Spirit's promptings) in order to do the good works that God has willed for us to do. If we choose to sin against God's commandments and do not repent again before death, we will not inherit the kingdom of God.

Paul sternly warns his flock against committing mortal sins:

Galatians 5:19-21 (ESV)
19 Now the works of the flesh are evident: sexual immorality, impurity, sensuality, 20 idolatry, sorcery, enmity, strife, jealousy, fits of anger, rivalries, dissensions, divisions, 21 envy, drunkenness, orgies, and things like these. I warn you, as I warned you before, that those who do such things will not inherit the kingdom of God.

Another warning:

Romans 11:21-23 (ESV)
21 For if God did not spare the natural branches, neither will he spare you. 22 Note then the kindness and the severity of God: severity toward those who have fallen, but God's kindness to you, provided you continue in his kindness. Otherwise you too will be cut off. 23 And even they, if they do not continue in their unbelief, will be grafted in, for God has the power to graft them in again.

A person continues in the kindness of God by obedience to His commandments.

1 Timothy 6:20-21 (NIV)
20 Timothy, guard what has been entrusted to your care. Turn away from godless chatter and the opposing ideas of what is falsely called knowledge, 21 which some have professed and in so doing have departed from the faith. Grace be with you all.

If a person departs from the faith, he is no longer saved and unless he repents before death, he will not inherit eternal life.

 

[HisSheep]

Hi JMJ,

I hope you won’t think me hostile when I tell you that I strongly disagree with several points you have made. I regret that I don’t have sufficient time to address each point fully. You’ve really broadened the discussion to include God’s sovereignty in salvation, perseverance and effectual calling. I’ll try to respond to a few points.

Jesus loses no sheep that His Father gave Him. The Father knew which persons would obey Him and enter into eternal life even before the world was created and so according to His foreknowledge of future events, He predestined the persons whom He foreknew would be faithful to His commandments and work righteousness until they died. The Father gave to His Son only the persons whom God knew would enter into eternal life after death. He predestined no persons to heaven whom He knew would fall away from the faith and not repent again before they died.

This view of scripture puts man in control of salvation, making God the beneficiary of OUR good descision to follow. Does God then REACT by crafting crowns for those who booked a room? …if you catch my drift… The bible is plain about the fact that God chooses His elect, not according to THEIR willingness, but according to HIS willingness. There is no one whom God cannot save. If He only wants to. He simply gives them faith and gives them righteousness. He can blind them for a few days (Paul), or have a fish swallow them up (Jonah), or make them to be like a beast of the field for seven years (Nebuchadnezzar)… No one says no to God.

In event after event, God seeks to display His might by championing the underdog. God never leaves a single victory to Israel’s credit. He prefers Israel to be outnumbered in battle. He wants (and deserves) all the glory. Salvation (justification, sanctification and glorification) is no exception... It is all His doing. When I arrive in Heaven, should it be to my own credit, I shall have taken glory from God.

I can tell that you have read enough to know that salvation does not depend on man’s works or his will:

For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure. (Phil2:13)

The works of the Christian (including obedience) are works of God. He proves himself to believers by working in their lives and hearts to COMPEL them (literally cause them, as slaves greek = doulos) to do good works. Then the works are more than merely service to the Master… They become a PROOF of the faith that God has granted! In this way, the works are a blessing and a gift of great joy! This is why the yoke is so easy and the burden is so light!

Saved people who do not continue in the faith until they die by obeying God's commandments are not approved by God to enter into eternal life after they die.

My reply:

All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out. (John 6:37)

Regarding your further point: It is true that Paul warns the flock. Yes, scripture encourages the faithful to remain faithful. (Even implying that they could fall.) These solemn warnings from scripture are but one manifestation of God’s grace toward the believer. The total of these sorts of graces (they are many) are sufficient to utterly save each of the elect. In other words: The bible would be insufficient to effectively save the elect WITHOUT these warnings and admonitions, and so they are there for the benefit of the elect.

We must view these warning verses in light of the many verses that tell us that God is our strength, that He has overcome, that Christ intercedes for us (very effectively btw), that we have passed from death to life, that no one will separate us from the love of Christ… etc…

He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life (John 3:36)

If a man loses his everlasting life, then it wasn’t very everlasting, was it?

I sure hope we can discuss things nicely. Some people get really ticked.

Earnestly,

HisSheep

 

[JMJ]

Hi JMJ,

.....This view of scripture puts man in control of salvation, making God the beneficiary of OUR good descision to follow. Does God then REACT by crafting crowns for those who booked a room? …if you catch my drift… The bible is plain about the fact that God chooses His elect, not according to THEIR willingness, but according to HIS willingness. There is no one whom God cannot save. If He only wants to. He simply gives them faith and gives them righteousness. He can blind them for a few days (Paul), or have a fish swallow them up (Jonah), or make them to be like a beast of the field for seven years (Nebuchadnezzar)… No one says no to God.

Am I correct in that it appears to me that you do not believe that every person has been given free will by God to either accept or reject God's commands?

Satan said "no" to God's command and suffered the consequences of his sin.
Adam said "no" to God's command and suffered the consequences of his sin.

Do you believe that God forced Satan to sin against Him?
Do you believe that God forced Adam to sin against Him?

I do not believe that God forced Satan and Adam to sin against Him when He tested their obedience to His commands. I believe that they each chose to disobey Him using their own free wills.

Romans 6:15-16 ESV
15 What then? Are we to sin because we are not under law but under grace? By no means! 16 Do you not know that if you present yourselves to anyone as obedient slaves, you are slaves of the one whom you obey, either of sin, which leads to death, or of obedience, which leads to righteousness?

I believe that God chose His elect according to His foreknowledge of the future actions of all mankind.

1 Peter 1:1-2 (NKJV)
1 Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ,
To the pilgrims of the Dispersion in Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia, and Bithynia, 2 elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, in sanctification of the Spirit, for obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace to you and peace be multiplied.

Peter is writing to the pilgrims of the Dispersion. The elect are known only by God the Father due to His foreknowledge of all future events. God foreknew before the foundation of the world which persons would become both sanctified and obedient to God because of the sacrifice of Jesus Christ. Only the persons who would become both sanctified and obedient until death were chosen as His elect.

In event after event, God seeks to display His might by championing the underdog. God never leaves a single victory to Israel’s credit. He prefers Israel to be outnumbered in battle. He wants (and deserves) all the glory. Salvation (justification, sanctification and glorification) is no exception... It is all His doing. When I arrive in Heaven, should it be to my own credit, I shall have taken glory from God.

God sanctifies all persons who become born again. All persons who become born again are justified (made righteous). However, not all persons who have been both born again and justified retain their justification until they die. Only the persons who retain their sanctification and justification until death are approved to receive the crown of eternal life.


Revelation 2:10 (NKJV)
Do not fear any of those things which you are about to suffer. Indeed, the devil is about to throw some of you into prison, that you may be tested, and you will have tribulation ten days. Be faithful until death, and I will give you the crown of life.

Do you see that the people have to overcome the temptations and trials that God allows to happen to them in order to test their faithfulness to Him and His commandments and that He only bestows the crown of eternal life on the persons who pass the tests by remaining faithful until they die?

I can tell that you have read enough to know that salvation does not depend on man’s works or his will:

For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure. (Phil2:13)

The works of the Christian (including obedience) are works of God. He proves himself to believers by working in their lives and hearts to COMPEL them (literally cause them, as slaves greek = doulos) to do good works. Then the works are more than merely service to the Master… They become a PROOF of the faith that God has granted! In this way, the works are a blessing and a gift of great joy! This is why the yoke is so easy and the burden is so light!

We can do no good works without God's help. But, good works (helping our neighbors and obeying His commandments) are required of all people who desire to enter into eternal life.

What do you make of this Scripture:

1 Timothy 4:16 NKJV
Take heed to yourself and to the doctrine. Continue in them, for in doing this you will save both yourself and those who hear you.

No one is forced to do good works. Remember the sheep and the goats. Does God judge people as righteous by their faith (head knowledge) or does He judge them righteous for eternal life by their good works? What happens to the goats who do not have any good works to prove their living faith? They are condemned to eternal fire. What happens to the sheep who have good works to prove their living faith? They are declared righteous and they are given the kingdom of heaven.

My reply:

All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out. (John 6:37)

The Father gives to the Son only those persons who will remain faithful to His commandments until death. The Father puts in His hand only those persons who will remain faithful until death. The persons who will fall away (believe for a little while) do not ever get put in His hand.

Regarding your further point: It is true that Paul warns the flock. Yes, scripture encourages the faithful to remain faithful. (Even implying that they could fall.) These solemn warnings from scripture are but one manifestation of God’s grace toward the believer. The total of these sorts of graces (they are many) are sufficient to utterly save each of the elect. In other words: The bible would be insufficient to effectively save the elect WITHOUT these warnings and admonitions, and so they are there for the benefit of the elect.

The elect do not know for sure if they are members of the elect. This is why Peter warns:

2 Peter 1:5-11 (NKJV)
5 But also for this very reason, giving all diligence, add to your faith virtue, to virtue knowledge, 6 to knowledge self-control, to self-control perseverance, to perseverance godliness, 7 to godliness brotherly kindness, and to brotherly kindness love. 8 For if these things are yours and abound, you will be neither barren nor unfruitful in the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ. 9 For he who lacks these things is shortsighted, even to blindness, and has forgotten that he was cleansed from his old sins.

10 Therefore, brethren, be even more diligent to make your call and election sure, for if you do these things you will never stumble; 11 for so an entrance will be supplied to you abundantly into the everlasting kingdom of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ.

We must view these warning verses in light of the many verses that tell us that God is our strength, that He has overcome, that Christ intercedes for us (very effectively btw), that we have passed from death to life, that no one will separate us from the love of Christ… etc…

It is true that no one can separate us from the love of God while we are on earth and this is because God loves all His creation and He cannot deny Himself His love for all His creation because God is love. However, all persons who are condemned to hell for eternity will be separated from God's love as soon as they arrive in hell. Hell is hell because God is not there.

He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life (John 3:36)

If a man loses his everlasting life, then it wasn’t very everlasting, was it?

It would be a more complete truth to say that "HE THAT BELIEVETH ON THE SON UNTIL DEATH HATH EVERLASTING LIFE."

Believing means obedience to the Son's commandments.

What requirements must we each meet in order to be approved by Jesus Christ to enter into eternal life?

Matthew 19:17 NKJV
So He said to him, “Why do you call Me good? No one is good but One, that is, God. But if you want to enter into life, keep the commandments.”

Luke 10:25-28 (NKJV)
25 And behold, a certain lawyer stood up and tested Him, saying, “Teacher, what shall I do to inherit eternal life?”

26 He said to him, “What is written in the law? What is your reading of it?”

27 So he answered and said, “‘You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, with all your soul, with all your strength, and with all your mind,’ and ‘your neighbor as yourself.’”

28 And He said to him, “You have answered rightly; do this and you will live.”

I sure hope we can discuss things nicely. Some people get really ticked.

Earnestly,

HisSheep

I hope we can, too.

I only get ticked when people assume that since I am Catholic, I am automatically wrong about everything I post that they do not agree with and so I choose to not continue to discuss that topic with them. People who hate a specific church or churches, whether Catholic and/or other denominations, are not capable of having meaningful discussions with the persons who belong to the hated churches. Their unjust prejudice clouds their minds and so they do not try to think rationally about the Scriptures that are presented to them by the other person.

*******

I believe this Scripture is very plain and easy to understand:

1 Timothy 6:20-21 (NIV)
20 Timothy, guard what has been entrusted to your care. Turn away from godless chatter and the opposing ideas of what is falsely called knowledge, 21 which some have professed and in so doing have departed from the faith. Grace be with you all.

Do you understand that a person has to have faith first before he can depart from it?

Do you understand that if a person departs from the faith, he is no longer saved and unless he repents before death, he will not inherit eternal life?