Why Jesus did not come to save everyone

[Davies]

I have been discussing this (elsewhere) with unconditional electionists (my term),
and have seen a number of verses which support their views.

My questions to you are:
Why are such verses in Scripture?
How can they possibly fit with the free-will verses?

In the OP, I gave some possible expanations for why God put the latter in Scripture.

Hi John,

Here is a possible reason why God gives us Scripture that allows us to think we have a choice. One reason is that He gives us choice. Just as God gave Adam and Eve the choice in the garden, so He gives the choice to us. If we didn't have a choice, then we truly couldn't love God, because we would just be robots. He wants us to exercise the gifts He has already given us, and if a person doesn't exercise those gifts, faith, reason, humility, then He knows and they are made into vessels of dishonor. This seems to fit the case of Judas. Because Judas did not choose to trust in Jesus, he was made to fulfill Scripture so that we would know God's word can be trusted. I believe God's word is spoken from the perspective of eternity knowing the beginning from the end. We are certainly not informed of all that God uses to make His decisions, but He gives us enough to guide us to the cross, and there in lies some of the mystery, why does man not choose? If we say that God does give choice to man, then God knew that when He created him not everyone would exercise their faith to trust Him, but it was worth it to gain those who would worship Him.

I thought the term unconditional electionists was funny, because I know there isn't anyone who merits God's favor, so He must unconditionally love you. To say otherwise is to say there was something in you that God valued more than another person giving you credit for God's favor. Knowing you understand to a considerable degree of how sinful you are, I think you can appreciate God's unmerited love just as I can.

These are just thoughts off the top of my head. I'm too tired to say much, but, I'll say one more thing, I love you John.

- Davies

 

[John Zain]

I have been discussing this (elsewhere) with unconditional electionists (my term),
and have seen a number of verses which support their views.

My questions to you are:
Why are such verses in Scripture?
How can they possibly fit with the free-will verses?

Hi John,
Here is a possible reason why God gives us Scripture that allows us to think we have a choice.
One reason is that He gives us choice.

Yes, my dear friend, you were tired ...
I was asking why are "unconditional election" verses in Scripture,
if in fact man has a free-will choice to accept God and His "foolish" gospel?

P.S. I used to be heavy-duty into pentecostal-charismatic Arminianism,
but then began really thinking about the other side of the equation.

Sure, man using his free will ... re: everything ... makes a lot of sense to us.
But, why all of the "unconditional election" verses?
.

 

[Davies]

Sure, man using his free will ... re: everything ... makes a lot of sense to us.
But, why all of the "unconditional election" verses?
.

Good morning,

Oops. I got my wires crossed last night. Before talking about this subject with everyone here, during Christmas, a cousin of mine who is a pastor who holds strongly to Calvinism came over, and we and others in the family must have talked for six hours. It was pleasant and yet challenging at the same time. When I walked away from the conversation, I came to the conclusion that there was a righteous reason why God does not choose someone, and if I'm wrong about having a choice, then I couldn't think of anything in the Scripture that would inform us on how God makes His decision. Yet, we read many if then statements in the Bible, and we see descriptions of those who God chooses.

I just haven't come to reason that God unconditionally chooses. Clearly, a line is drawn somewhere. Take for example when Jesus said to the apostles, 'I chose you, you did not choose me.' Do you think that Jesus chose them for no reason? It could be because of the wretched character of the apostles that He chose them, to confound the wise. God's glory and greatness is displayed more significantly by saving the 'more' sinful person than a very 'righteous' person. The condition of a self-righteous person has everything to do with self-will. I think as we take in more of the Bible, we are given a greater ability to choose God because of the faith that is produced by God's word. When a person comes to the end of themselves, this is when God usually acts. A possible reason why we are given the 'unconditional election' verses is that God wants us to understand, that despite the ability we have been given to trust in Him, we can take no credit in being saved. I think I'm closer to your view than you think, but I still believe there has to be a recognition of one's sins and a confession to what we deserve before we can receive God's pardon and value Jesus' sacrifice, and this can be thwarted by stubbornly holding on to self-righteousness. I think every man has the ability to come to faith in Jesus through His word, but I think we also have the ability to reject Him and His offer of forgiveness, the former does not come naturally while the later does. Those who choose to listen are often those who are closer to understanding their sin. Though God does not have to save us, the offer of salvation continues to go out, because God does not desire for any to perish even though He knows those who will not choose. That's love.

- Davies

 

[JMJ]

According to Scripture, Jesus came to redeem all mankind. He died for all men (and women).

1 Timothy 2:3-7 For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior, 4 who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth. 5 For there is one God and one Mediator between God and men, the Man Christ Jesus, 6 who gave Himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time, 7 for which I was appointed a preacher and an apostle—I am speaking the truth in Christ and not lying—a teacher of the Gentiles in faith and truth.

God is not desiring that any person perish/be condemned to hell. He loves every individual person that He creates. He forces no person to obey Him and He forces no person to disobey Him. Each person has free will and so each must choose to either obey Him or disobey Him until death. However, there is a consequence, either heaven or hell, for the choice each person makes.

2 Peter 3:9 The Lord is not slack concerning His promise, as some count slackness, but is longsuffering toward us, not willing that any should perish but that all should come to repentance.


No righteous good works Titus 3:4-6 and no works of the Law of Moses Galatians 2:16 could redeem us from Adam's sin Romans 5:12 and so mankind had no possibility of inheriting eternal life after death.

Jesus, because He was both God and Man, mediated our reconciliation with God when He redeemed us from Adam's sin by His death on the cross. This redemption was His gift to mankind and now we again have the possibility of inheriting eternal life.

The New Covenant is not a covenant against all works. Good works are actually mandated by this New Covenant to show proof of a person's faith in Jesus' New Covenant. A redeemed person who does not do good works to show his love for both God and man will not inherit eternal life.

Ephesians 2:10 For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand that we should walk in them.

Matthew 7:21 “Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven.

Works matter. Our own evil works condemn us to hell. Our own good works approve us for inheriting eternal life.

John 5:28-30 28 Do not marvel at this; for the hour is coming in which all who are in the graves will hear His voice 29 and come forth—those who have done good, to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil, to the resurrection of condemnation. 30 I can of Myself do nothing. As I hear, I judge; and My judgment is righteous, because I do not seek My own will but the will of the Father who sent Me.

Before the foundation of the world, God had foreknowledge 1 Peter 1:2 of each person's future actions on earth. His Scriptural prophecies and appointments were made according to His foreknowledge of all future events. Jesus was foreordained to redeem mankind because God knew before Adam was created that he would sin and lose all possibility of inheriting eternal life for all mankind.

1 Peter 1:17-21 "And if you call on the Father, who without partiality judges according to each one’s work, conduct yourselves throughout the time of your stay here in fear; 18 knowing that you were not redeemed with corruptible things, like silver or gold, from your aimless conduct received by tradition from your fathers, 19 but with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot. 20 He indeed was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you 21 who through Him believe in God, who raised Him from the dead and gave Him glory, so that your faith and hope are in God."

 

[jasoncran]

im unaware of a good works based salvation. and im not a osaser either.

im aware of the general thinking of the catholics on works but i dont think we can work our way to heaven, if that was the case the law and its animal sacrifice could have done that trick.the law wasnt meant to save, it was meant to show what god wanted after the isrealites believed in them. it did if followed and mercy and grace given(yes god did dispense grace in the ot) enable a change of heart and life, but it was god again doing it.

 

[smaller]

Works matter. Our own evil works condemn us to hell. Our own good works approve us for inheriting eternal life.

And of course believers who come forth with that premise always and only have 'good works' unto salvation and never any evil stray sin thoughts or actions, and if they do they always find a way around it but never will a way around be found for anyone else outside their own sect.

Common denominators.

s

 

[Davies]

Works matter. Our own evil works condemn us to hell. Our own good works approve us for inheriting eternal life.

Hi JmJ,

I liked what you had to say. Those are wonderful verses to meditate on because I think they communicate the heart of God. I would be careful with your statement of "Works matter." I don't believe Scripture supports that our good works approve us for eternal life. Though our works may indicate a saving faith, it is the faith that justifies us, and we can't even boast about that. I think works matter if they are done with the proper motivation. It's not natural for us to depend on Someone we cannot see, especially when it comes to our eternal destiny. It is natural for us to try and bribe the Judge with good works, and you should have quoted the verses right after Matthew 7:21:

Matthew 7:22-23
New King James Version (NKJV)
22 Many will say to Me in that day, ‘Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Your name, cast out demons in Your name, and done many wonders in Your name?’ 23 And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness!’

We can put no stock in our works for our justification. I think a better view of our work can be found in Luke 17.

Luke 17:9-10
New King James Version (NKJV)
9 Does he thank that servant because he did the things that were commanded him? I think not.[a] 10 So likewise you, when you have done all those things which you are commanded, say, ‘We are unprofitable servants. We have done what was our duty to do.’â€

- Davies

 

[JMJ]

im unaware of a good works based salvation. and im not a osaser either.

im aware of the general thinking of the catholics on works but i dont think we can work our way to heaven, if that was the case the law and its animal sacrifice could have done that trick.the law wasnt meant to save, it was meant to show what god wanted after the isrealites believed in them. it did if followed and mercy and grace given(yes god did dispense grace in the ot) enable a change of heart and life, but it was god again doing it.

No one can work their way into heaven. It is grace alone that saves us. So, what about faith and works? How do they affect grace? That is the important question.

 

[JMJ]

And of course believers who come forth with that premise always and only have 'good works' unto salvation and never any evil stray sin thoughts or actions, and if they do they always find a way around it but never will a way around be found for anyone else outside their own sect.

Common denominators.

s

Please see previous post.

When we are born again we receive sanctifying grace. This is a gift from God. We did not earn this grace which saves us (sanctifying grace) and we can not possibly earn it. Jesus died on the cross in order to make it possible for us to become born again and receive sanctifying grace.

Sins leading to death also called mortal sins do cause a person to lose his sanctifying grace.

Sins not leading to death also called venial sins do not cause a person to lose his sanctifying grace.

Sanctifying grace is the Holy Spirit's presence within a person's soul. The Holy Spirit's presence within the soul at the time of a person's death is a person's only guarantee that he will inherit eternal life. If a person does not have the Holy Spirit's presence (guarantee) within his soul at the time of his death, God will not know him and he will not inherit eternal life. The Holy Spirit does not dwell in a soul that has been defiled by mortal sin. He only resides in souls that obey God's commandments.

Evil Catholics do not inherit eternal life. Good Christians do, regardless of denomination, if they are serving God to the best of their ability.

 

[smaller]

Evil Catholics do not inherit eternal life. Good Christians do, regardless of denomination, if they are serving God to the best of their ability.

Last time I checked the RCC has not determined any common member to actually even 'have' salvation as a known fact, nor have they determined a single individual into hell.

s

 

[JMJ]

Hi JmJ,

I liked what you had to say. Those are wonderful verses to meditate on because I think they communicate the heart of God. I would be careful with your statement of "Works matter." I don't believe Scripture supports that our good works approve us for eternal life. Though our works may indicate a saving faith, it is the faith that justifies us, and we can't even boast about that. I think works matter if they are done with the proper motivation. It's not natural for us to depend on Someone we cannot see, especially when it comes to our eternal destiny. It is natural for us to try and bribe the Judge with good works, and you should have quoted the verses right after Matthew 7:21:

Matthew 7:22-23
New King James Version (NKJV)
22 Many will say to Me in that day, ‘Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Your name, cast out demons in Your name, and done many wonders in Your name?’ 23 And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness!’

Thank you, Davies.

It is not the good works that cause condemnation in Matthew 7:22-23, it is the evil works that cause the condemnation.

1 John 3:4 Whoever commits sin also commits lawlessness, and sin is lawlessness. Sin is also called iniquity.

So, why don't these persons' previous good works such as prophesying matter to God? Ezekiel tells us exactly why:

Ezekiel 33:12-20 “Therefore you, O son of man, say to the children of your people: ‘The righteousness of the righteous man shall not deliver him in the day of his transgression; as for the wickedness of the wicked, he shall not fall because of it in the day that he turns from his wickedness; nor shall the righteous be able to live because of his righteousness in the day that he sins.’ 13 When I say to the righteous that he shall surely live, but he trusts in his own righteousness and commits iniquity, none of his righteous works shall be remembered; but because of the iniquity that he has committed, he shall die. 14 Again, when I say to the wicked, ‘You shall surely die,’ if he turns from his sin and does what is lawful and right, 15 if the wicked restores the pledge, gives back what he has stolen, and walks in the statutes of life without committing iniquity, he shall surely live; he shall not die. 16 None of his sins which he has committed shall be remembered against him; he has done what is lawful and right; he shall surely live.

17 “Yet the children of your people say, ‘The way of the Lord is not fair.’ But it is their way which is not fair! 18 When the righteous turns from his righteousness and commits iniquity, he shall die because of it. 19 But when the wicked turns from his wickedness and does what is lawful and right, he shall live because of it. 20 Yet you say, ‘The way of the Lord is not fair.’ O house of Israel, I will judge every one of you according to his own ways.”

Now, replace Christian wherever children of your people and house of Israel are located in the Ezekiel passage and you will see why Jesus says what He says in Matthew. People who do evil works (practice lawlessness/commit iniquity) will not be approved to enter into eternal life. These Christian people died spiritually when they chose to sin against God's commandments.

We can put no stock in our works for our justification. I think a better view of our work can be found in Luke 17.

Luke 17:9-10
New King James Version (NKJV)
9 Does he thank that servant because he did the things that were commanded him? I think not. 10 So likewise you, when you have done all those things which you are commanded, say, ‘We are unprofitable servants. We have done what was our duty to do.’”

- Davies

1 Timothy 4:16 Take heed to yourself and to the doctrine. Continue in them, for in doing this you will save both yourself and those who hear you.

We must continue our own justification (save ourselves) by obeying God's commands (His doctrine) until we die if we desire to enter into eternal life after we die.

Revelation 2:10 Do not fear any of those things which you are about to suffer. Indeed, the devil is about to throw some of you into prison, that you may be tested, and you will have tribulation ten days. Be faithful until death, and I will give you the crown of life.

Those persons who are not faithful to God's commands until death do not receive the crown of eternal life.


The reason the master in Luke does not need to thank the servant is because the servant's reasonable service to his master are the things that are required of him. Simply doing his minimum duty toward his master is not commendable.

So, how does this relate to the the Christian who has been freely redeemed/justified/saved by Jesus Christ?

Romans 12:1 I beseech you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, that you present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable to God, which is your reasonable service.

We express our gratitude to God for our free gift of salvation by presenting our bodies as living sacrifices, holy, acceptable to God. Only the pure in heart will enter into eternal life after death and see God.

Matthew 5:8 Blessed are the pure in heart, For they shall see God.

We retain/continue our justification by our continued faith in God. Faith or belief in God/Jesus is obedience to His commandments. Obedience is called belief and disobedience is called unbelief.

Hebrews 3:18-19 And to whom did He swear that they would not enter His rest, but to those who did not obey? 19 So we see that they could not enter in because of unbelief.

James 1:12 Blessed is the man who endures temptation; for when he has been approved, he will receive the crown of life which the Lord has promised to those who love Him.

 

[John Zain]

I'm moving along further and embracing a more all-encompassing idea:

Unconditional election
God chooses people with absolutely no regard to what good, etc. they will do in their lives.
Because ALL men are more than hopelessly mired in their sinful nature (compared to the Holy God),
re: sin ---> spiritual death (separation from God).

Free will
These people above may (or may not) choose to go along with God's sanctification process.

God's elect
These people are the ones who choose to be sanctified, and are the "overcomers" in Revelation 2-3.
And these are the ones mentioned in Paul's Romans 8:28-30.
God's true elect are the overcomers who have made it through to the end with the help of the Holy Spirit.

 

[JMJ]

Last time I checked the RCC has not determined any common member to actually even 'have' salvation as a known fact, nor have they determined a single individual into hell.

s

No person living on earth has absolute certainty that he is saved and will continue to be saved. Many people on earth think/believe they are in the state of grace, but they are not.

Only God knows with absolute certainty which people are in hell. I believe that the Rich Man, if he is an actual person, is now in hell. I would guess that Judas is in hell since Scripture states that it would have been better if he had never been born.

Mark 14:21 The Son of Man indeed goes just as it is written of Him, but woe to that man by whom the Son of Man is betrayed! It would have been good for that man if he had never been born.â€

Paul admonishes all of us:

Philippians 2:12 Therefore, my beloved, as you have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling;

Peter also warns us:

1 Peter 1:17 And if you call on the Father, who without partiality judges according to each one’s work, conduct yourselves throughout the time of your stay here in fear;

 

[JMJ]

im unaware of a good works based salvation. and im not a osaser either.

im aware of the general thinking of the catholics on works but i dont think we can work our way to heaven, if that was the case the law and its animal sacrifice could have done that trick.the law wasnt meant to save, it was meant to show what god wanted after the isrealites believed in them. it did if followed and mercy and grace given(yes god did dispense grace in the ot) enable a change of heart and life, but it was god again doing it.

The Catholic faith teaches that persons must have faith plus good works in order to be approved by God to inherit eternal life after death.

James 2:20-26 But do you want to know, O foolish man, that faith without works is dead? 21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered Isaac his son on the altar? 22 Do you see that faith was working together with his works, and by works faith was made perfect? 23 And the Scripture was fulfilled which says, “Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness.” And he was called the friend of God. 24 You see then that a man is justified by works, and not by faith only. 25 Likewise, was not Rahab the harlot also justified by works when she received the messengers and sent them out another way? 26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.

Dead faith is faith without works and dead faith has no power to save us.

James 1:21-22 Therefore lay aside all filthiness and overflow of wickedness, and receive with meekness the implanted word, which is able to save your souls. 22 But be doers of the word, and not hearers only, deceiving yourselves.

 

[Davies]

The Catholic faith teaches that persons must have faith plus good works in order to be approved by God to inherit eternal life after death.

James 2:20-26 But do you want to know, O foolish man, that faith without works is dead? 21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered Isaac his son on the altar? 22 Do you see that faith was working together with his works, and by works faith was made perfect? 23 And the Scripture was fulfilled which says, “Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness.†And he was called the friend of God. 24 You see then that a man is justified by works, and not by faith only. 25 Likewise, was not Rahab the harlot also justified by works when she received the messengers and sent them out another way? 26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.

Dead faith is faith without works and dead faith has no power to save us.

I'm not sure why you brought the Catholic faith into this, but James 2 needs to be reconciled with the following verses:

Galatians 2:16
New King James Version (NKJV)
16 knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law but by faith in Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Christ Jesus, that we might be justified by faith in Christ and not by the works of the law; for by the works of the law no flesh shall be justified.

Romans 4:2
New King James Version (NKJV)
2 For if Abraham was justified by works, he has something to boast about, but not before God.

Hebrews 11:31
New King James Version (NKJV)
31 By faith the harlot Rahab did not perish with those who did not believe, when she had received the spies with peace.

Galatians 3:2-3
New King James Version (NKJV)
2 This only I want to learn from you: Did you receive the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith? 3 Are you so foolish? Having begun in the Spirit, are you now being made perfect by the flesh?

Galatians 3:11
New King James Version (NKJV)
11 But that no one is justified by the law in the sight of God is evident, for “the just shall live by faith.â€[a]

Footnotes:
Galatians 3:11 Habakkuk 2:4

Romans 3:28
New King James Version (NKJV)
28 Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith apart from the deeds of the law.

James 1:21-22 Therefore lay aside all filthiness and overflow of wickedness, and receive with meekness the implanted word, which is able to save your souls. 22 But be doers of the word, and not hearers only, deceiving yourselves.

I would agree with you, and James 2, works is important in that it naturally follows faith, but our works has no role in our justification, and the Bible communicates this clearly.

- Davies

 

[JMJ]

I'm not sure why you brought the Catholic faith into this, but James 2 needs to be reconciled with the following verses:

Galatians 2:16
New King James Version (NKJV)
16 knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law but by faith in Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Christ Jesus, that we might be justified by faith in Christ and not by the works of the law; for by the works of the law no flesh shall be justified.

Romans 4:2
New King James Version (NKJV)
2 For if Abraham was justified by works, he has something to boast about, but not before God.

Hebrews 11:31
New King James Version (NKJV)
31 By faith the harlot Rahab did not perish with those who did not believe, when she had received the spies with peace.

Galatians 3:2-3
New King James Version (NKJV)
2 This only I want to learn from you: Did you receive the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith? 3 Are you so foolish? Having begun in the Spirit, are you now being made perfect by the flesh?

Galatians 3:11
New King James Version (NKJV)
11 But that no one is justified by the law in the sight of God is evident, for “the just shall live by faith.â€[a]

Footnotes:
Galatians 3:11 Habakkuk 2:4

Romans 3:28
New King James Version (NKJV)
28 Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith apart from the deeds of the law.

It was previous posters who alluded to RCC beliefs. I was further explaining to them in my post to you.

I would agree with you, and James 2, works is important in that it naturally follows faith, but our works has no role in our justification, and the Bible communicates this clearly.

- Davies

Our righteous works and works of the Law of Moses have no bearing on our first justification. Jesus Christ redeemed us by His death on the cross. We were each justified when we believed and were baptized, OR, for some people, when they believed and accepted Jesus as their Lord and Savior.

However, we must retain this justification until death in order to be approved to enter into eternal life. IF we sin and lose our justification, then we must repent and confess our sins once again in order to become re-justified and then remain justified until we die if we desire to be approved to enter into eternal life.

Hebrews 10:26-31 For if we sin willfully after we have received the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins, 27 but a certain fearful expectation of judgment, and fiery indignation which will devour the adversaries. 28 Anyone who has rejected Moses’ law dies without mercy on the testimony of two or three witnesses. 29 Of how much worse punishment, do you suppose, will he be thought worthy who has trampled the Son of God underfoot, counted the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified a common thing, and insulted the Spirit of grace? 30 For we know Him who said, “Vengeance is Mine, I will repay,†says the Lord. And again, “The Lord will judge His people.†31 It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.

If people sin after they are justified, they lose their justification and they will receive the wrath of God after death unless they repent before they die.

Matthew 24:11-13 "Then many false prophets will rise up and deceive many. 12 And because lawlessness will abound, the love of many will grow cold. 13 But he who endures to the end shall be saved."

There is no continued faith in God without continued obedience to Him.

2 Thessalonians 1:7-9 and to give you who are troubled rest with us when the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven with His mighty angels, 8 in flaming fire taking vengeance on those who do not know God, and on those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ. 9 These shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power,

What is the gospel of Jesus Christ? His gospel is all that He has commanded to be obeyed.

Matthew 28:18-20 NIV Then Jesus came to them and said, “All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me. 19 Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, 20 and teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you. And surely I am with you always, to the very end of the age.â€

Faith in God is obedience to His commandments. There is no continued faith in God without continued obedience to His commandments.

1 John 5:3 For this is the love of God, that we keep His commandments. And His commandments are not burdensome.

1 John 2:4 He who says, “I know Him,†and does not keep His commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.

There are many false Christians who will be very surprised when they are judged after they die. They will not inherit eternal life even though many years ago they had accepted Jesus as their Lord and Savior. Many baptized Christians will meet with this same condemnation. Luke 13:24-27, Matthew 7:21-23

Luke 9:23 Then He said to them all, “If anyone desires to come after Me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross daily, and follow Me.

Salvation is a continual, daily process until death. It is not a one-time event.

 

[Davies]

Hi JMJ,

I don't think you reconciled those verses from James and the various verses I provided. Perhaps you will have to work to keep your justification, but my justification was completed when Jesus said, 'It is finished,' and gave up His Spirit on the cross and then rose again from the dead. My justification was never in my hands, and the role I play in receiving the free gift of eternal life, being born again by repentance and faith in Jesus Christ alone, I don't fear losing my salvation because I have been sealed by the Holy Spirit. Because you say you keep your justification through works, I am concerned you may think you earn a 'second' justification. That is wrong from the understanding I have from reading the Bible. We may have to strongly disagree on this point because I will speak against it where ever I hear it. It was the doctrine of justification that split the Catholic faith from what was deemed Protestantism in the 16th century, and there is no joining with hands with the Catholic church and its Maryology today except for the lukewarm church.

Ephesians 1:13-14
New King James Version (NKJV)
13 In Him you also trusted, after you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation; in whom also, having believed, you were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise, 14 who[a] is the guarantee of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, to the praise of His glory.

- Davies

 

[Ace1234]

Hi Ace1234,

I would disagree with John Zain's opening post that not everyone is invited. Luke 14:15-24, in the parable of the great supper, it clearly says, "'24 For I say to you that none of those men who were invited shall taste my supper.'" So, I believe there is a responsibility we have to respond to God's grace, and we are held accountable if we reject Jesus Christ. The mystery I think is that many do not choose. All we have to do is look into the world where billions of people do not believe in Jesus Christ.

Jesus said, Matt. 7:13 “Enter by the narrow gate; for wide is the gate and broad is the way that leads to destruction, and there are many who go in by it."

I wouldn't blame God for not saving a person, I would blame the person for not repenting and putting their faith in Jesus.

- Davies

In the larger picture the fact is the majority of humanity since Christ has never heard the gospel, as much as some try to create another gospel other than Christ to save them. Since Christ said he was the only way millions never had a choice in accepting that only way. Again, it took 400 years for the gospel to reach Europe and another 1000 before it hit the shores of America, etc...

Blame is a hard game, if you or I were born in say Iran there's a 90% chance we would be mulsim due to culture and indoctrination from birth, same with religions in other nations, people tend to believe what they're indoctrinated from birth from parents, education, governments, etc.... I'm not so sure why we're so special in nations that allow freedom of religion over others that aren't, God is no respector of person isn't he.

They're 100's of social and cultural factors that play a role beyond blame. Even in America it's hard to compare children that grow up in poverty, unloved, without two parents, etc...to those with loving parents that go to church. Most of these turn to gangs, crime, etc....In some areas dying young due to gang violence is common....Simply many factors shape us and the way most represent God is that he doesn't look at these factors, each is responsible for figuring out Christ on their own regardless of upbringing or culture. Like a billion Chinese kids will reject Christ due to cultural beliefs from birth, just unlucky I guess.

It's an egotisical approach to think we're so special that God elected a few over the majority of humanity, not the Christ I know that loved and died for mankind.. IN the end salvation just becomes more luck than anything.

 

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No person living on earth has absolute certainty that he is saved and will continue to be saved. Many people on earth think/believe they are in the state of grace, but they are not.

That is true. That's also why I get a chuckle out of the position of the RCC's infallibility. None of them can say they are definitely saved, but they can then say they stand on infallibility? A severe logical fallacy imho.

Only God knows with absolute certainty which people are in hell.

Again, anyone who knows their RCC salt knows they have been able to determine exactly zero people 'in hell' and state openly that this is a fact. What is that fact? Zero. I believe their view on this is honest. No, there is no way of determining that matter as a fact. Even some of the 'better' determinist scholars arrive at the identical conclusion.

The RCC says you can hold that there are zero people in hell, or that you can hold that people are in hell. They have an official 'either or' position on this matter.

I believe that the Rich Man, if he is an actual person, is now in hell.

The 'rich man' is a very rich study. If you knew the 'identity' of this man you would understand both 'who' he is and 'why' he's not getting through heaven's gate. It's quite amazing.

I would guess that Judas is in hell since Scripture states that it would have been better if he had never been born.

The difficulty with that view is this. All of Israel's people were taught to be Gods children. See Deut. 14:1 or Psalm 82:6 for examples. Paul teaches that 'all' of Israel shall be saved in Romans 11:25-32. Why? Because they are 'all' His children, and that includes Judas.

If one thinks Judas is in hell, then one leaps headlong into the position that God burns His own children alive in hell forever. It's not credible imho to take that position. There are many sects within christiandom that are pro-Israel precisely for this reason.

s

 

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