What's new
By:
Filters
Christian Forums

This is a sample guest message. Register a free account today to become a member! Once signed in, you'll be able to participate on this site by adding your own topics and posts, as well as connect with other members through your own private inbox!

Why Jews do not believe in Christ

W

Wertbag

Guest
A Jewish friend directed me to a site which explained his view on why Jews reject Christ as the messiah. The main points from that site:

JESUS DID NOT FULFILL THE MESSIANIC PROPHECIES

What is the Messiah supposed to accomplish? The Bible says that he will:

A. Build the Third Temple (Ezekiel 37:26-28).

B. Gather all Jews back to the Land of Israel (Isaiah 43:5-6).

C. Usher in an era of world peace, and end all hatred, oppression, suffering and disease. As it says: "Nation shall not lift up sword against nation, neither shall man learn war anymore." (Isaiah 2:4)

D. Spread universal knowledge of the God of Israel, which will unite humanity as one. As it says: "God will be King over all the world -- on that day, God will be One and His Name will be One" (Zechariah 14:9).

The historical fact is that Jesus fulfilled none of these messianic prophecies.

Christians counter that Jesus will fulfill these in the Second Coming, but Jewish sources show that the Messiah will fulfill the prophecies outright, and no concept of a second coming exists.

DESCENDENT OF DAVID

The Messiah must be descended on his father's side from King David (see Genesis 49:10 and Isaiah 11:1). According to the Christian claim that Jesus was the product of a virgin birth, he had no father -- and thus could not have possibly fulfilled the messianic requirement of being descended on his father's side from King David!

JEWISH BELIEF IS BASED SOLELY ON NATIONAL REVELATION

Of the 15,000 religions in human history, only Judaism bases its belief on national revelation -- i.e. God speaking to the entire nation. If God is going to start a religion, it makes sense He'll tell everyone, not just one person.

Judaism, unique among all of the world's major religions, does not rely on "claims of miracles" as the basis for its religion. In fact, the Bible says that God sometimes grants the power of "miracles" to charlatans, in order to test Jewish loyalty to the Torah (Deut. 13:4).


While these seem like fair decriptions on the surface I guess there must be literature that addresses the issues raised? Can you please explain to me where the mistakes in these claims lay?
Thanks
 
prophecy

Does anyone see in the Messianic prophecies any prophecies that Christians use as 'proof" of O/T prophecies being fulfilled in Jesus? The Messianic prophecies are much older than the Christian prophecies because the Christian prophecies as claimed were pulled out of the O/T and made to sound like authentic prophecies but as can be seen they are not now and never were considered prophecies.
 
Wertbag said:
A Jewish friend directed me to a site which explained his view on why Jews reject Christ as the messiah. The main points from that site:

JESUS DID NOT FULFILL THE MESSIANIC PROPHECIES

What is the Messiah supposed to accomplish? The Bible says that he will:

A. Build the Third Temple (Ezekiel 37:26-28).

B. Gather all Jews back to the Land of Israel (Isaiah 43:5-6).

C. Usher in an era of world peace, and end all hatred, oppression, suffering and disease. As it says: "Nation shall not lift up sword against nation, neither shall man learn war anymore." (Isaiah 2:4)

D. Spread universal knowledge of the God of Israel, which will unite humanity as one. As it says: "God will be King over all the world -- on that day, God will be One and His Name will be One" (Zechariah 14:9).

The historical fact is that Jesus fulfilled none of these messianic prophecies.

Christians counter that Jesus will fulfill these in the Second Coming, but Jewish sources show that the Messiah will fulfill the prophecies outright, and no concept of a second coming exists.

DESCENDENT OF DAVID

The Messiah must be descended on his father's side from King David (see Genesis 49:10 and Isaiah 11:1). According to the Christian claim that Jesus was the product of a virgin birth, he had no father -- and thus could not have possibly fulfilled the messianic requirement of being descended on his father's side from King David!

JEWISH BELIEF IS BASED SOLELY ON NATIONAL REVELATION

Of the 15,000 religions in human history, only Judaism bases its belief on national revelation -- i.e. God speaking to the entire nation. If God is going to start a religion, it makes sense He'll tell everyone, not just one person.

Judaism, unique among all of the world's major religions, does not rely on "claims of miracles" as the basis for its religion. In fact, the Bible says that God sometimes grants the power of "miracles" to charlatans, in order to test Jewish loyalty to the Torah (Deut. 13:4).


While these seem like fair decriptions on the surface I guess there must be literature that addresses the issues raised? Can you please explain to me where the mistakes in these claims lay?
Thanks
Click to expand...

Jesus himself is the temple. When he died, the temple curtain tore in half which means we now worship the living God, and don't need a temple to do so. That's what Christ meant when he said he will rebuild the temple in 3 days. :)


The bible says that only the remnant of Israel will be saved. Romans 9:6, "For not all who are decended from Israel are Israel. Nor because they are descendants are they all Abraham's children. On the contrary, it is through Isaac that your offspring will be reckoned. In other words, it is not the natural children of Israel who are God's children, but it is the children of the promise who are regarded as Abraham's children." You also have to read 1st and 2nd kings to see that Israel split into 2 groups; Jews in Isreal and the Jews in Judah. The former were exiled into Babylon and the latter are called the remnant and the bible says that only the remnant will be saved.

Isaiah is describing the New Jerusalem which is talked about in Revelations as heaven. It is also symbolizing Christ's victory over death without which, man's sins could never be erased. The erase of sins is the peace that Isaiah is describing.

The Holy Spirit does unite all people's under one spirit. Before Christ died and sent the Holy Spirit to earth at pentecost, salvation was only offered to the Jews. Now it is offered to all. But the problem is, that most will not accept it. But it's there for the offering to anyone of any race, religion, or culture and can bring nations together if they want it. :)

What Genesis 49:10 means is that the messiah will come from the house of David, not from the house of Israel. As I already mentioned, the Judean Jews are the remnant over whom David ruled as opposed to the house of Isreal who exiled to Babylon. The bible is describing which Jews are the real Jews and the messiah will descend from that line.

God has told everyone, including you yourself, but only a few believe him. As Jesus said, those who believe him will have eternal life and those who do not will be separated from him forever.

God, by definition, is supernatural. Any religion that doesn't not rely on miracles is not describing a supernatural, omniscient, or omnipotent God, but instead, man-made created things which are not eternal. Therefore, they cannot be the real God. :)
 
belief

Heidi: Your post may convince Christians who already believe in Jesus but it does not address the questions in Wertbag's post at all. A basic underlying difficulty is that since it is the NT that repeatedly relates back to what you call the OT (and Jews refer to the Tanach) by stating "thus and thus happened thus fulfilling the word of the prophet...", it stands to reason that the litmus test of legitimacy is that what is stated in the NT must not contradict the OT! :D It is the Tanach which is the overarching prooftext with which the NT must conform or as Ricky used to say to Lucy-" You've got some splainin' to do" :oops:

Much of what you have stated is wholly subjective and speculative. Eg. Jesus=temple??? I thought most Christians think that Jesus=God. Why would God give commands for Solomon to build a temple of worship to God. This, by your reasoning is equivalent to God giving instructions to build God for the the worship of God!! Makes no sense!

If you believe the curtain was torn at the time of the crucifixtion I guess you also believe that dead people came up out of their graves and walked the streets of Jerusalem, too, as stated in Matthew. Funny how no contemporary writer mentions this happening. You'd think it would draw some attention, wouldn't you?

As for your comment regarding miracles, this will never convince someone of the Jewish faith who knows his Tanach. Judaism, does not rely on claims of miracles as the basis for its religion. The Torah states that God sometimes grants the power of so called miracles to charlatans in order to test loyalty to the Torah (Deut.13:4). So please, if you will, address the problems as quoted in Wertbag's post and please back up your positions by demonstrating consistency between anything you infer from the NT, with what you call the Old Testament.
 
Wertbag said:
A Jewish friend directed me to a site which explained his view on why Jews reject Christ as the messiah.
Click to expand...
First problem is that only explains why many Jews reject Christ, but not all do.

Wertbag said:
A. Build the Third Temple (Ezekiel 37:26-28).
Click to expand...
Perhaps it depends on what version you use, not that it matters:

Eze 37:26 "I will make a covenant of peace with them. It shall be an everlasting covenant with them. And I will set them in their land and multiply them, and will set my sanctuary in their midst forevermore.
Eze 37:27 My dwelling place shall be with them, and I will be their God, and they shall be my people.
Eze 37:28 Then the nations will know that I am the LORD who sanctifies Israel, when my sanctuary is in their midst forevermore." (ESV)

Mar 14:58 "We heard him say, 'I will destroy this temple that is made with hands, and in three days I will build another, not made with hands.'"

Joh 2:19 Jesus answered them, "Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up."
Joh 2:20 The Jews then said, "It has taken forty-six years to build this temple, and will you raise it up in three days?"
Joh 2:21 But he was speaking about the temple of his body.

Luk 23:45 while the sun's light failed. And the curtain of the temple was torn in two.

1Co 3:16 Do you not know that you are God's temple and that God's Spirit dwells in you?
1Co 3:17 If anyone destroys God's temple, God will destroy him. For God's temple is holy, and you are that temple.

1Co 6:19 Or do you not know that your body is a temple of the Holy Spirit within you, whom you have from God? You are not your own,

Eph 2:19 So then you are no longer strangers and aliens, but you are fellow citizens with the saints and members of the household of God,
Eph 2:20 built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Christ Jesus himself being the cornerstone,
Eph 2:21 in whom the whole structure, being joined together, grows into a holy temple in the Lord.
Eph 2:22 In him you also are being built together into a dwelling place for God by the Spirit.

Do I need to spell it out?

Wertbag said:
Christians counter that Jesus will fulfill these in the Second Coming, but Jewish sources show that the Messiah will fulfill the prophecies outright, and no concept of a second coming exists.
Click to expand...
Second problem is that over the millennia there are many differing versions of just who this Messiah will be and what he will accomplish. There is no universal agreement among Jews.

Wertbag said:
The historical fact is that Jesus fulfilled none of these messianic prophecies.
Click to expand...
The historical fact is that there are prophesies yet to be fulfilled as is made absolutely clear in the NT. :D

Wertbag said:
The Messiah must be descended on his father's side from King David (see Genesis 49:10 and Isaiah 11:1). According to the Christian claim that Jesus was the product of a virgin birth, he had no father -- and thus could not have possibly fulfilled the messianic requirement of being descended on his father's side from King David!
Click to expand...
Luke 3:23,31, "Luk 3:23 Jesus, when he began his ministry, was about thirty years of age, being the son (as was supposed) of Joseph, the son of Heli,...Luk 3:31 the son of Melea, the son of Menna, the son of Mattatha, the son of Nathan, the son of David,"

Those who were adopted had all the legal rights as a begotten child. Hence the reason Paul and John speak of Christians as being adopted sons and daughters of God, heirs with Christ.

Wertbag said:
Of the 15,000 religions in human history, only Judaism bases its belief on national revelation -- i.e. God speaking to the entire nation. If God is going to start a religion, it makes sense He'll tell everyone, not just one person.

Judaism, unique among all of the world's major religions, does not rely on "claims of miracles" as the basis for its religion. In fact, the Bible says that God sometimes grants the power of "miracles" to charlatans, in order to test Jewish loyalty to the Torah (Deut. 13:4).
Click to expand...
I fail to see how this is an argument against Christianity.

Seeing as how you have been around for quite some time and are not unfamiliar to the arguments you gave, and seeing as how you have a Jewish friend supplying such arguments, I'm sure the very answers I gave have already been anticipated. I took the bait, so now what?
 
messiah

1. Metaphorical references that equate the someone's body to a temple prove nothing.

2.Although you are correct in stating there have been differences within the Jewish community wrt the messiah there is a unanimous opinion in Orthodox Judaism that whosoever is the King in David's line ruling in those times when there is historical confirmation in this world, of what the prophets proclaimed (universal peace, knowledge of Hashem, etc) -he will be recognized as the Mashiach.

3. You are incorrect wrt to your statement concerning adoption. Adoption was utilized to convey tangibles such as property etc, but tribal lineage and affiliation could never be transmitted to a son through adoption. That is why for example a priest (Kohen) adoption of a son never made the son into a Kohen.

4. There is nothing in the Hebrew Bible about the mashiach coming once, dying, and coming a second time to fulfill what is in the prophetic writings. The Jewish interpretation of the mashiach was that he would be mortal, have living descendants and fulfill the accomplishments in the Messianic age here on earth the first time.

I would suggest you prove from the Hebrew Bible where it is stated:

1) The mashiach would fulfill the accomplishments in a second coming.
2) Adoption confers tribal lineage
 
Wertbag said:
JEWISH BELIEF IS BASED SOLELY ON NATIONAL REVELATION

Of the 15,000 religions in human history, only Judaism bases its belief on national revelation -- i.e. God speaking to the entire nation. If God is going to start a religion, it makes sense He'll tell everyone, not just one person.

Judaism, unique among all of the world's major religions, does not rely on "claims of miracles" as the basis for its religion. In fact, the Bible says that God sometimes grants the power of "miracles" to charlatans, in order to test Jewish loyalty to the Torah (Deut. 13:4).
Click to expand...


Heidi said:
God, by definition, is supernatural. Any religion that doesn't not rely on miracles is not describing a supernatural, omniscient, or omnipotent God, but instead, man-made created things which are not eternal. Therefore, they cannot be the real God. :)
Click to expand...


So you are saying that the Jewish God isn't the "real God"? Isn't the Christian God supposed to be the Jewish God? Which you claim isn't real?

:)
 
only Judaism bases its belief on national revelation -- i.e. God speaking to the entire nation. If God is going to start a religion, it makes sense He'll tell everyone, not just one person.
Click to expand...


God speaking to an entire nation does look to be a kind of miracle.
 
Jews dont believe in Jesus because they are Jews and not Christians.... :o
 
Are you saying that we are "blind" to the truth that you and other Christians see in the so-called O.T.? And if that is so, why do you think we Jews are "blind"?
 
Romans 10:1 Brethren, my heart's desire and prayer to God for Israel is, that they might be saved.

Romans 10:2 For I bear them record that they have a zeal of God, but not according to knowledge.

Romans 10:3 For they being ignorant of God's righteousness, and going about to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted themselves unto the righteousness of God.


Romans 10:4 For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth.
 
Jesus and the blind Jews.

John 12:34 The people answered him, We have heard out of the law that Christ abideth for ever: and how sayest thou, The Son of man must be lifted up? who is this Son of man?

John 12:35 Then Jesus said unto them, Yet a little while is the light with you. Walk while ye have the light, lest darkness come upon you: for he that walketh in darkness knoweth not whither he goeth.

John 12:36 While ye have light, believe in the light, that ye may be the children of light. These things spake Jesus, and departed, and did hide himself from them.

John 12:37 But though he had done so many miracles before them, yet they believed not on him:

John 12:38 That the saying of Esaias the prophet might be fulfilled, which he spake, Lord, who hath believed our report? and to whom hath the arm of the Lord been revealed?

John 12:39 Therefore they could not believe, because that Esaias said again,

John 12:40 He hath blinded their eyes, and hardened their heart; that they should not see with their eyes, nor understand with their heart, and be converted, and I should heal them.

John 12:41 These things said Esaias, when he saw his glory, and spake of him.

John 12:42 Nevertheless among the chief rulers also many believed on him; but because of the Pharisees they did not confess him, lest they should be put out of the synagogue:

John 12:43 For they loved the praise of men more than the praise of God.
 
Christianity makes a radical break with Judaism. It involves departing from Yahweh's law, which Yahweh was very strict about, and it involves the worship of Jesus which could well be regarded as idolatry. If your a Jew following the Torah, then from that basis you should very likely reject Jesus.

The only "guarantee" that Yahweh wants people to follow Jesus would seem to be that he was the Jewish Messiah who fulfilled lots of O.T. prophecies. As it happens, the supposed prophecy fulfillments are actually damaging to Christianity, because in many cases its very clear that the plain meaning of the text has absolutely nothing to do with Jesus, and they weren't even prophecies!

Yahweh hasn't given Jews any good reason to convert.
 
Nice post, Divine Names. According to the N.T. it is God who makes the unbelieving Jew blind and deaf to the truth. If that is so, how can the Jew be blamed, after all, Paul says it's God's will? :crying:

BTW, there really is no use bringing out Isaiah 53 again and trying to convince us that Jesus is the servant. The fact that the servant is the righteous remnant of Israel is admitted to, even by many Christian bible scholars and by many Christian bibles.
 
2 Corinthians 4:3 But if our gospel be hid, it is hid to them that are lost:

2 Corinthians 4:4 In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.

2 Corinthians 4:5 For we preach not ourselves, but Christ Jesus the Lord; and ourselves your servants for Jesus' sake.

Jews that reject their Messiah do so for a reason.

Acts 28:23 And when they had appointed him a day, there came many to him into his lodging; to whom he expounded and testified the kingdom of God, persuading them concerning Jesus, both out of the law of Moses, and out of the prophets, from morning till evening.

Acts 28:24 And some believed the things which were spoken, and some believed not.

Acts 28:25 And when they agreed not among themselves, they departed, after that Paul had spoken one word, Well spake the Holy Ghost by Esaias the prophet unto our fathers,

Acts 28:26 Saying, Go unto this people, and say, Hearing ye shall hear, and shall not understand; and seeing ye shall see, and not perceive:

Acts 28:27 For the heart of this people is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes have they closed; lest they should see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them.

Note in the above verse that the Jews have closed their eyes and ears to the truth. God simply honours their choice.

Acts 28:28 Be it known therefore unto you, that the salvation of God is sent unto the Gentiles, and that they will hear it.
 
einstein said:
BTW, there really is no use bringing out Isaiah 53 again and trying to convince us that Jesus is the servant. The fact that the servant is the righteous remnant of Israel is admitted to, even by many Christian bible scholars and by many Christian bibles.
Click to expand...
Actually, Isaiah 53 makes little sense outside of it referring to Jesus.
 
Free: I disagree. It makes all the sense in the world in referring to corporate righteous Israel when you translate it accurately and view it in context with the entire book of Isaiah especially the last 20 chapters or so. There is no reference to Jesus in Isaiah 53 and there are multiple passages which certainly cannot apply to him.

The other moderator just continues to rhyme off passages from the NT to prove his point. This proves nothing! As a devout Christian we assume you view the so-called OT and NT as God-given or at least inspired. Furthermore, since the NT continually refers to the OT for its own authentication (fulfillment of such and such a prophecy,etc.), whenever there is a major contradiction between the 2, it is the NT that must give way not the other way around. :D Instead of spouting off verses why don't you actually compare your theology to principles laid out in the OT to actually see if they conform to what Hashem has said to Moses and his prophets? You might be surprised to find people as Rashi, Maimonides, Nachmanides and others aren't as BLIND to the truth as you think.
 
They don't keep the law now nor did they then. Apostate, stubborn and lost that is the national plight of Israel today.

God help them.
Click to expand...
He sure will as they are His covenant people. I just would not want to be found fighting against them or slandering them. God has made it abundantly clear how He feels about Isreal.
 
einstein said:
Free: I disagree. It makes all the sense in the world in referring to corporate righteous Israel when you translate it accurately and view it in context with the entire book of Isaiah especially the last 20 chapters or so. There is no reference to Jesus in Isaiah 53 and there are multiple passages which certainly cannot apply to him.
Click to expand...
I'll address this later since there are several reasons why it cannot refer to Israel without contradicting the Torah.

einstein said:
You might be surprised to find people as Rashi, Maimonides, Nachmanides and others aren't as BLIND to the truth as you think.
Click to expand...
The oldest traditions and interpretations of this passage in Judaism refer to a person, often the Messiah, although not always. That it refers to the nation of Israel is a relatively late interpretation, for obvious reasons I would think. In the 2nd century Origen wrote of some Jewish leaders who interpreted the passage as referring to Israel. This is significant because the Talmud wasn't completed until more than 300 years after Origen, yet the idea of Isaiah 53 referring to Israel didn't make it into any rabbinic source until the 11th century.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top