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Desire to be a vessel of honor unto the Lord Jesus Christ?
Join For His Glory for a discussion on how
https://christianforums.net/threads/a-vessel-of-honor.110278/
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Taking the time to pray? Christ is the answer in times of need
https://christianforums.net/threads/psalm-70-1-save-me-o-god-lord-help-me-now.108509/
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bibleberean
Guest
- Thread starter
- #22
bibleberean said:
He will help them indeed. The bible is clear that they will be saved. The bible is also clear that nationally they are stubborn, lost and apostate.
Jeremiah 30:11 For I am with thee, saith the LORD, to save thee: though I make a full end of all nations whither I have scattered thee, yet will I not make a full end of thee: but I will correct thee in measure, and will not leave thee altogether unpunished.
Acts 7:51 Ye stiffnecked and uncircumcised in heart and ears, ye do always resist the Holy Ghost: as your fathers did, so do ye.
Acts 7:52 Which of the prophets have not your fathers persecuted? and they have slain them which shewed before of the coming of the Just One; of whom ye have been now the betrayers and murderers:
Acts 7:53 Who have received the law by the disposition of angels, and have not kept it.
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bhakthi
Guest
- Thread starter
- #23
This is like watching the second part of a movie without watching the first part.Without watching the first part of a movie you cannot understand the second part.There are Messianic prophecies yet to be fulfilled.True.The gathering of the Jews,Temple building all those type of things will take place at the right time believe it and wait.Christians also believe that.But before this there were other prophecies to be fulfilled.Like the following-Wertbag said:
‘The virgin shall conceive and bear a Son.His name shall be called Immanuel.â€ÂIs;7:14 “You are my Son .Today I have begotten you.â€ÂPsalm;2:7
"And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself:" Daniel ;9:26.[Messiah had to be cut off when the second temple stood.]
"But he was wounded for our transgressions, he was bruised for our iniquities," Isaiah ;53:5
"For thou wilt not leave my soul in hell; neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption." Psalm;16:10[for your information-David who wrote this died and was buried and saw corruption.But Jesus whom God raised didn't see corruption]
Then comes the next scene.God exalts the Christ whom he raised from the dead to his right hand.
"The Lord said unto my Lord, Sit thou at my right hand, until I make thine enemies thy footstool." Psalm;110:1
Then it was fulfilled what Psalm 118 says-
"The stone which the builders refused is become the head stone of the corner." Psalm;118:22
Believe me or the Scriptures ,Jesus will fulfill the rest of the Messianic prohedies.But there is a pre-condition- They have to say "Blessed is the One who comes in the Name of The Lord."[When they are in trouble they will say this and there wil be no other choice]
"They will have to look on Him who they have pierced."Zechariah;10:10
[see John;19]
So you are talking like a person who watch the second part of a movie without watching the first part.
The Son of God Theory explained please visit;
http://www.gilead.ws
Also a very useful Messianic link
http://www.messiahrevealed.org/category-index.html
“For the moth will eat them up like a garment, And the worm will eat them like wool; But My righteousness will be forever, And My salvation from generation to generation." Isaiah;51:8
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bhakthi
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- Thread starter
- #25
einstein said:
The Jewish filters you use, look like they are clogged.
" Who has gone up to heaven and come down? Who has gathered the wind in His hands?Who has bound up the waters in a cloak? Who has established all the ends of the earth? What is His name,and what is the name of His Son-if you know?" Proverbs;30:4
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DivineNames
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- Thread starter
- #26
I have seen a Jew being interviewed, I think he was somehow connected with the Israeli Government. It was mentioned that many U.S. Christians want Jews to be converted, and he was asked if he would ever accept Jesus. He had a smile on his face as he replied, "if he comes back, I will accept him, that's not a problem".
:D
:D
psalm 2
This psalm is often quoted by Christians as a foretelling of Jesus who they identify as the "Son".
However contextually and linguistically there is no justification for this interpretation from the simple meaning of the psalm.
The psalm describes a plot against one of Hashem's anointed kings. A straightforward reading of the psalm would indicate that the most likely candidate is King David, the author of the psalm.
After Hashem chastises the schemers, the king relates Hashem's promise of victory over the plotters and urges them to change their ways to embrace God.
In v7 David, the author of the psalm speaks on his own behalf:
"I will tell of the decree: The Lord said to me "You are my son; this day have I begotten you."
Other psalms such as 89 establish David as a true anointed or mashiach and 2Sam5/8 describe the situations where foreign monarchs schemed and plotted against King David.
Here are some questions to consider. Consider them honestly without any preconceptions, if you can. Dictionaries define the act of begetting as procreating or generating progeny. Are there any accounts of Hashem procreating in the Hebrew Bible? NO! The Tanach teaches that while Hashem functions as a "partner" in the procreation process, all humans come into existence through the normal biological process.
On the other hand, the Tanach contains many reference describing a relationship between Hashem as a Father to the nation of Israel as a whole or to the properly anointed king of Israel as the people's representative. eg.
Ex 4:22 (Israel) and 2 Sam 7:14 (Solomon). When these and other similar passages are read in context the father-son relationships described are clearly understood as being metaphorical and not biological.
Consider also that Jesus was never anointed according to the principles laid down by Hashem in the Tanach.
Also consider that the use of capitalization in the KJB ("Son") is pure invention since there are no capitals in the Hebrew language.
When all is said in done, rather than trying to force "types" and "shadows" into the meaning of the psalm where there is no support for such an interpretation from its reading, the message is quite clear that the "son" is King David, being characterized in exactly the same way Hashem referred to Solomon as his "son" and as David elsewhere in his psalms describes his special relationship to Hashem:
2 sam 7:14-"I will be to him a father, and he shall be to Me a son; so that when he goes astray I will chasten him with the rod of men and with afflictions of human beings."
Psalm 89-"(21) I found David My servant: I anointed him with My holy oil."
(27) "He will call to Me,"You are my Father, my God, and the Rock of my salvation. (28) Also I will make him a firstborn, highest of the kings on earth.
This psalm is often quoted by Christians as a foretelling of Jesus who they identify as the "Son".
However contextually and linguistically there is no justification for this interpretation from the simple meaning of the psalm.
The psalm describes a plot against one of Hashem's anointed kings. A straightforward reading of the psalm would indicate that the most likely candidate is King David, the author of the psalm.
After Hashem chastises the schemers, the king relates Hashem's promise of victory over the plotters and urges them to change their ways to embrace God.
In v7 David, the author of the psalm speaks on his own behalf:
"I will tell of the decree: The Lord said to me "You are my son; this day have I begotten you."
Other psalms such as 89 establish David as a true anointed or mashiach and 2Sam5/8 describe the situations where foreign monarchs schemed and plotted against King David.
Here are some questions to consider. Consider them honestly without any preconceptions, if you can. Dictionaries define the act of begetting as procreating or generating progeny. Are there any accounts of Hashem procreating in the Hebrew Bible? NO! The Tanach teaches that while Hashem functions as a "partner" in the procreation process, all humans come into existence through the normal biological process.
On the other hand, the Tanach contains many reference describing a relationship between Hashem as a Father to the nation of Israel as a whole or to the properly anointed king of Israel as the people's representative. eg.
Ex 4:22 (Israel) and 2 Sam 7:14 (Solomon). When these and other similar passages are read in context the father-son relationships described are clearly understood as being metaphorical and not biological.
Consider also that Jesus was never anointed according to the principles laid down by Hashem in the Tanach.
Also consider that the use of capitalization in the KJB ("Son") is pure invention since there are no capitals in the Hebrew language.
When all is said in done, rather than trying to force "types" and "shadows" into the meaning of the psalm where there is no support for such an interpretation from its reading, the message is quite clear that the "son" is King David, being characterized in exactly the same way Hashem referred to Solomon as his "son" and as David elsewhere in his psalms describes his special relationship to Hashem:
2 sam 7:14-"I will be to him a father, and he shall be to Me a son; so that when he goes astray I will chasten him with the rod of men and with afflictions of human beings."
Psalm 89-"(21) I found David My servant: I anointed him with My holy oil."
(27) "He will call to Me,"You are my Father, my God, and the Rock of my salvation. (28) Also I will make him a firstborn, highest of the kings on earth.
S
Soma-Sight
Guest
- Thread starter
- #29
So is this unbelief some sort of genetic disorder or a cultural one?
Isnt this an argument Hitler made at one point?
That they killed Christ so to the camp with them?
- Apr 2, 2003
- 22,422
- 5,894
Re: i53
1. Isa 52:13 Behold, My servant shall prosper, he shall be exalted and lifted up, and shall be very high.
Sounds good enough and this agrees with what God stated ealier to the nation of Israel:
Deu 28:13 And the LORD will make thee the head, and not the tail; and thou shalt be above only, and thou shalt not be beneath; if thou shalt hearken unto the commandments of the LORD thy God, which I command thee this day, to observe and to do them;
Deu 28:14 and shalt not turn aside from any of the words which I command you this day, to the right hand, or to the left, to go after other gods to serve them. (see also the rest of Deut. 28 and Lev. 26)
However, when we take a closer look at the rest of Isa. 52 and go into Isa. 53, something different comes out:
Isa 53:3 He was despised, and forsaken of men, a man of pains, and acquainted with disease, and as one from whom men hide their face: he was despised, and we esteemed him not.
Isa 53:4 Surely our diseases he did bear, and our pains he carried; whereas we did esteem him stricken, smitten of God, and afflicted.
Isa 53:9 And they made his grave with the wicked, and with the rich his tomb; although he had done no violence, neither was any deceit in his mouth.'
Isa 53:10 Yet it pleased the LORD to crush him by disease; to see if his soul would offer itself in restitution, that he might see his seed, prolong his days, and that the purpose of the LORD might prosper by his hand:
The servant is portrayed as righteous throughout Isa. 52 and 53, yet he is "despised and forsaken," "stricken" and "afflicted". This is quite the opposite of God's promises in Lev. 26 and Deut. 28 to the nation of Israel, if as a nation they were righteous. What happens here, if we interpret this passage with Israel as the servant, is that although they are righteous, God is cursing them, as he promises he will do but only if they are unrighteous. There is much more that can be said about that as seen in Isa. 53, but you get the point.
2. Isa 52:13 Behold, My servant shall prosper, he shall be exalted and lifted up, and shall be very high.
Isa 52:14 According as many were appalled at thee - so marred was his visage unlike that of a man, and his form unlike that of the sons of men -
Isa 52:15 So shall he startle many nations, kings shall shut their mouths because of him; for that which had not been told them shall they see, and that which they had not heard shall they perceive.
Here the servant is to suffer terrible disfigurment and yet be "exalted and lifted up" to the point that "kings will shut their mouths because of him". Perhaps you can tell me when Israel has ever been exalted.
3. Isa 53:7 He was oppressed, though he humbled himself and opened not his mouth; as a lamb that is led to the slaughter, and as a sheep that before her shearers is dumb; yea, he opened not his mouth.
Isa 53:9 And they made his grave with the wicked, and with the rich his tomb; although he had done no violence, neither was any deceit in his mouth.'
When has Israel as a nation ever been totally righteous? When has Israel, as a nation been silent before its oppressors? When has there ever been no violence nor deceit among the nation of Israel?
Isa 53:11 Of the travail of his soul he shall see to the full, even My servant, who by his knowledge did justify the Righteous One to the many, and their iniquities he did bear.
Isa 53:12 Therefore will I divide him a portion among the great, and he shall divide the spoil with the mighty; because he bared his soul unto death, and was numbered with the transgressors; yet he bore the sin of many, and made intercession for the transgressors.
Again, note that the servant didn't sin, yet he bore the sin of many; this was the reason for his suffering from God.
4. Isa 53:4 Surely our diseases he did bear, and our pains he carried; whereas we did esteem him stricken, smitten of God, and afflicted.
Isa 53:5 But he was wounded because of our transgressions, he was crushed because of our iniquities: the chastisement of our welfare was upon him, and with his stripes we were healed.
Isa 53:6 All we like sheep did go astray, we turned every one to his own way; and the LORD hath made to light on him the iniquity of us all.
The suffering of the servant brought healing to the nations. Perhaps you can show me when the suffering of the nation of Israel brought healing to anyone, nevermind those who persecuted them. Quite the opposite happened to those who cause Israel to suffer - God destroyed and afflicated them.
Clearly the passage cannot refer to Israel as a nation as it would contradict the Torah and many other passages in the Tanakh. The passage does however perfectly fit Jesus as the Messiah. Perfectly.
Alright, sorry for the long delay. Unless otherwise stated, I will be referring to the Jewish Publication Society (JPS) Old Testament. Now, regarding Isaiah 53 and why it does not, and cannot, refer to Israel:einstein said:
1. Isa 52:13 Behold, My servant shall prosper, he shall be exalted and lifted up, and shall be very high.
Sounds good enough and this agrees with what God stated ealier to the nation of Israel:
Deu 28:13 And the LORD will make thee the head, and not the tail; and thou shalt be above only, and thou shalt not be beneath; if thou shalt hearken unto the commandments of the LORD thy God, which I command thee this day, to observe and to do them;
Deu 28:14 and shalt not turn aside from any of the words which I command you this day, to the right hand, or to the left, to go after other gods to serve them. (see also the rest of Deut. 28 and Lev. 26)
However, when we take a closer look at the rest of Isa. 52 and go into Isa. 53, something different comes out:
Isa 53:3 He was despised, and forsaken of men, a man of pains, and acquainted with disease, and as one from whom men hide their face: he was despised, and we esteemed him not.
Isa 53:4 Surely our diseases he did bear, and our pains he carried; whereas we did esteem him stricken, smitten of God, and afflicted.
Isa 53:9 And they made his grave with the wicked, and with the rich his tomb; although he had done no violence, neither was any deceit in his mouth.'
Isa 53:10 Yet it pleased the LORD to crush him by disease; to see if his soul would offer itself in restitution, that he might see his seed, prolong his days, and that the purpose of the LORD might prosper by his hand:
The servant is portrayed as righteous throughout Isa. 52 and 53, yet he is "despised and forsaken," "stricken" and "afflicted". This is quite the opposite of God's promises in Lev. 26 and Deut. 28 to the nation of Israel, if as a nation they were righteous. What happens here, if we interpret this passage with Israel as the servant, is that although they are righteous, God is cursing them, as he promises he will do but only if they are unrighteous. There is much more that can be said about that as seen in Isa. 53, but you get the point.
2. Isa 52:13 Behold, My servant shall prosper, he shall be exalted and lifted up, and shall be very high.
Isa 52:14 According as many were appalled at thee - so marred was his visage unlike that of a man, and his form unlike that of the sons of men -
Isa 52:15 So shall he startle many nations, kings shall shut their mouths because of him; for that which had not been told them shall they see, and that which they had not heard shall they perceive.
Here the servant is to suffer terrible disfigurment and yet be "exalted and lifted up" to the point that "kings will shut their mouths because of him". Perhaps you can tell me when Israel has ever been exalted.
3. Isa 53:7 He was oppressed, though he humbled himself and opened not his mouth; as a lamb that is led to the slaughter, and as a sheep that before her shearers is dumb; yea, he opened not his mouth.
Isa 53:9 And they made his grave with the wicked, and with the rich his tomb; although he had done no violence, neither was any deceit in his mouth.'
When has Israel as a nation ever been totally righteous? When has Israel, as a nation been silent before its oppressors? When has there ever been no violence nor deceit among the nation of Israel?
Isa 53:11 Of the travail of his soul he shall see to the full, even My servant, who by his knowledge did justify the Righteous One to the many, and their iniquities he did bear.
Isa 53:12 Therefore will I divide him a portion among the great, and he shall divide the spoil with the mighty; because he bared his soul unto death, and was numbered with the transgressors; yet he bore the sin of many, and made intercession for the transgressors.
Again, note that the servant didn't sin, yet he bore the sin of many; this was the reason for his suffering from God.
4. Isa 53:4 Surely our diseases he did bear, and our pains he carried; whereas we did esteem him stricken, smitten of God, and afflicted.
Isa 53:5 But he was wounded because of our transgressions, he was crushed because of our iniquities: the chastisement of our welfare was upon him, and with his stripes we were healed.
Isa 53:6 All we like sheep did go astray, we turned every one to his own way; and the LORD hath made to light on him the iniquity of us all.
The suffering of the servant brought healing to the nations. Perhaps you can show me when the suffering of the nation of Israel brought healing to anyone, nevermind those who persecuted them. Quite the opposite happened to those who cause Israel to suffer - God destroyed and afflicated them.
Clearly the passage cannot refer to Israel as a nation as it would contradict the Torah and many other passages in the Tanakh. The passage does however perfectly fit Jesus as the Messiah. Perfectly.
B
bhakthi
Guest
- Thread starter
- #31
Re: psalm 2
“If you abide in My word, you are My disciples indeed. And you shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free." John;8: 31,32
God did not beget David.David's Father was was Jesse.Anyone who knows to read can find out this is true.David had a natural birth like any other human being.He was no different from any other prophet or patriarch.But Jesus was born of the Spirit of God and He is the one who was raised from the dead as God's first born from the dead.This Psalm is about this Man who was begotten of God.einstein said:
“If you abide in My word, you are My disciples indeed. And you shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free." John;8: 31,32
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bhakthi
Guest
- Thread starter
- #32
Re: psalm 2
When Jesus came to be baptized by John the Baptist in Jordan, heaven opened and the Holy Spirit in the form of a dove came down and stayed on Jesus and a voice was heard from heaven, â€ÂThis is my beloved Son in whom I am well pleasedâ€ÂMark;1:10,11
“You are my Son.Today I have begotten You.â€ÂPsalm; 2 :7. This scripture, God speaks here, is about a Son,whom He has begotten.Threre are many who think,it is about King David,that God is speaking here,because David wrote this Psalm.It was Jesse,who begot David,not God.There is no reason to believe it is about David because,it doesn't make any difference in his life.David had a natural birth like any other human being on earth.He lived and died like any other Patriarch or Prophet.But like in many other Psalms[ 2,8,16,22,40,68,110 etc] David here, is prophetically speaking about,the Messiah.who is to be begotten of God.It is Jesus Christ who was conceived by the Holy Spirit of God, in the womb of a virgin, and later raised as God's first-born from the dead.
] “If you abide in My word, you are My disciples indeed. And you shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free." John;8: 31,32
Before Lord Jesus was born, Angel Gabriel appeared to Mary to speak about His birth and told her like this, “The Holy Spirit will come upon you, and the power of the Most High will overshadow you. Therefore the holy child to be born will be called the Son of God.†Mathew;1:35einstein said:
When Jesus came to be baptized by John the Baptist in Jordan, heaven opened and the Holy Spirit in the form of a dove came down and stayed on Jesus and a voice was heard from heaven, â€ÂThis is my beloved Son in whom I am well pleasedâ€ÂMark;1:10,11
“You are my Son.Today I have begotten You.â€ÂPsalm; 2 :7. This scripture, God speaks here, is about a Son,whom He has begotten.Threre are many who think,it is about King David,that God is speaking here,because David wrote this Psalm.It was Jesse,who begot David,not God.There is no reason to believe it is about David because,it doesn't make any difference in his life.David had a natural birth like any other human being on earth.He lived and died like any other Patriarch or Prophet.But like in many other Psalms[ 2,8,16,22,40,68,110 etc] David here, is prophetically speaking about,the Messiah.who is to be begotten of God.It is Jesus Christ who was conceived by the Holy Spirit of God, in the womb of a virgin, and later raised as God's first-born from the dead.
] “If you abide in My word, you are My disciples indeed. And you shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free." John;8: 31,32
B
bhakthi
Guest
- Thread starter
- #33
You are my Son.Today I have begotten You.â€ÂPsalm; 2 :7. This scripture, God speaks here, is about a Son,whom He has begotten.Threre are many who think,it is about King David,that God is speaking here,because David wrote this Psalm.It was Jesse,who begot David,not God.There is no reason to believe it is about David because,it doesn't make any difference in his life.David had a natural birth and he lived and died like any other Patriarch or Prophet.But like in many other Psalms[ 2,8,16,22,40,68,110 etc] David here, is prophetically speaking about,the Messiah.who is to be begotten of God.It is Jesus Christ who was conceived by the Holy Spirit of God, in the womb of a virgin, and later raised as God's first-born from the dead.
is 53
Sorry for the lengthy delay. I have been away, and up until today had difficulty posting.
It will take more than 1 post for me to present the Jewish perspective on Isa53, so I would ask for a little indulgence.
My method involves a combination of linguistic and contextual analysis from the original Hebrew. Free has claimed that these passages fit Jesus "perfectly". I shall show that this is not correct.
If one attempts to analyze Isa 53 without context to the surrounding chapters, to to the Book of Isaiah and the Tanach, it is not surprising that faulty conclusions can be drawn.
Israel's redemption and final vindication in the Messianic Age, to be witnessed bby the Gentile nations is a common theme throughout the Tanach and a central motif of last 27 chapters of the Book of Isaiah.
Does the prophet identify the servant of Hashem anywhere else in Isaiah? He certainly does. There are 8 instances where the servant is irrefutably identified as corporate Israel, often referred to as the righteous remnant of Israel. Two examples will suffice.
Is 45:4- For the sake of MY SERVANT Jacob, and Israel My chosen one, I called to you by your name.
Is 49:3- And (G-d) said to me: "you are MY SERVANT, O Israel in whom I will be glorified.
Elsewhere in the Hebrew bible as 1 example only- Psa 136:22 Even a heritage unto Israel His SERVANT; for His mercy endures forever.
The question to be addressed then is this: Is the unnamed servant in Isa 53 the same or a different entity than corporate Israel as noted above?
First one should recognize that the chapter divisions in present bibles are a late modification. Originally manuscripts were written on scrolls without any divisions. Thus the separation between ch 52, 53 and 54 are artificial.
In these surrounding chapters, G-d continues to address the Jewish nation using the terms "Zion" nad "Jersualem" in ch 52 and the oft used poetic metaphor of a barren woman in chp 54 to reassure the nation of its future redemption. What, then would be more logical- to continue with this theme in chp 53 or suddenly for no apparent reason to switch themes and begin out of nowhere to talk about Jesus only to revert to the original theme of national redemption again in chapter 54? I leave it to the reader to decide.
Next it is important to recognize the change in speakers from Isa 52:15 and 53:1 and the time frame perspective. It is Hashem speaking at 52:15 about His servant. The initial passages in 53 are presented as being spoken sometime in the future Messianic age from a past tense perspective. That is why all the verbs in the original Hebrew are past tense conjugations. In 52:15 the prophet is describing a future scenario of surprise and astonishment that Gentile kings and nations will experience when they themselves see the exalted position chosen for Israel by Hashem, relative to how they saw the nation in the past. Everything they had previously believed and in fact contributed to, namely, the humiliation and degradation of God's servant will be annulled, and corporate Israel will receive it due rewards.
That is why with astonishment the Gentile kings state in 53:1- Who would have believed our report? The rhetorical answer to this question is- No one would have believed it! :D
One might respond by stating that this is pure conjecture on my part. The common Christian position is that it is the Jewish nation speaking about their report and expressing their surprise concerning Jesus. If that is your position then you should be able to back it up with supporting passages in the Hebrew bible. Personally, I do not feel there are any such passages that indicate that at the time of the arrival of the Messiah there will be great shock and surprise by Israel or an admission of gross error on their part to the Gentile nations.(BTW don't quote Zecharia to me, there are umpteen reasons why it doesn't apply)
However there are many passages which support the concept of surprise and astonishment of the Gentile kings in the messianic age in addition to Is 52:15 FROM WHICH THE REST OF THE NARRATIVE FLOWS.
Mic 7:15-16: According to the days of they coming out of the land of Egypt will I show them marvelous things. The NATIONS shall see and be confounded at all of their might; they shall lay their hands on their mouth, their ears shall be deaf.
Is 41:11- Behold all those who were incensed against you shall be ashamed and confounded; those who quarreled with you shall be as naught and be lost.
Jer 16:19- O Lord, my strenth and my fortress and my refuge in the day of affliction; the Gentiles shall come unto thee from the ends of the earth and shall say:"Surely, our fathers have inherited lies, vanity and things wherein there is no benefit.
Indeed Zecharia states that in the messianic age 10 gentiles of different languages will grasp the shirt of the Jewish man and say: "Let us go with you, for we have heard that Hashem is with you." (Zech 8:23)
Thus there is ample corroboration in the Hebrew bible as to who will be incredulous and surprised in the messianic age- the Gentile nations and kings, not corporate Israel.
That's all for now. More to come.
Sorry for the lengthy delay. I have been away, and up until today had difficulty posting.
It will take more than 1 post for me to present the Jewish perspective on Isa53, so I would ask for a little indulgence.
My method involves a combination of linguistic and contextual analysis from the original Hebrew. Free has claimed that these passages fit Jesus "perfectly". I shall show that this is not correct.
If one attempts to analyze Isa 53 without context to the surrounding chapters, to to the Book of Isaiah and the Tanach, it is not surprising that faulty conclusions can be drawn.
Israel's redemption and final vindication in the Messianic Age, to be witnessed bby the Gentile nations is a common theme throughout the Tanach and a central motif of last 27 chapters of the Book of Isaiah.
Does the prophet identify the servant of Hashem anywhere else in Isaiah? He certainly does. There are 8 instances where the servant is irrefutably identified as corporate Israel, often referred to as the righteous remnant of Israel. Two examples will suffice.
Is 45:4- For the sake of MY SERVANT Jacob, and Israel My chosen one, I called to you by your name.
Is 49:3- And (G-d) said to me: "you are MY SERVANT, O Israel in whom I will be glorified.
Elsewhere in the Hebrew bible as 1 example only- Psa 136:22 Even a heritage unto Israel His SERVANT; for His mercy endures forever.
The question to be addressed then is this: Is the unnamed servant in Isa 53 the same or a different entity than corporate Israel as noted above?
First one should recognize that the chapter divisions in present bibles are a late modification. Originally manuscripts were written on scrolls without any divisions. Thus the separation between ch 52, 53 and 54 are artificial.
In these surrounding chapters, G-d continues to address the Jewish nation using the terms "Zion" nad "Jersualem" in ch 52 and the oft used poetic metaphor of a barren woman in chp 54 to reassure the nation of its future redemption. What, then would be more logical- to continue with this theme in chp 53 or suddenly for no apparent reason to switch themes and begin out of nowhere to talk about Jesus only to revert to the original theme of national redemption again in chapter 54? I leave it to the reader to decide.
Next it is important to recognize the change in speakers from Isa 52:15 and 53:1 and the time frame perspective. It is Hashem speaking at 52:15 about His servant. The initial passages in 53 are presented as being spoken sometime in the future Messianic age from a past tense perspective. That is why all the verbs in the original Hebrew are past tense conjugations. In 52:15 the prophet is describing a future scenario of surprise and astonishment that Gentile kings and nations will experience when they themselves see the exalted position chosen for Israel by Hashem, relative to how they saw the nation in the past. Everything they had previously believed and in fact contributed to, namely, the humiliation and degradation of God's servant will be annulled, and corporate Israel will receive it due rewards.
That is why with astonishment the Gentile kings state in 53:1- Who would have believed our report? The rhetorical answer to this question is- No one would have believed it! :D
One might respond by stating that this is pure conjecture on my part. The common Christian position is that it is the Jewish nation speaking about their report and expressing their surprise concerning Jesus. If that is your position then you should be able to back it up with supporting passages in the Hebrew bible. Personally, I do not feel there are any such passages that indicate that at the time of the arrival of the Messiah there will be great shock and surprise by Israel or an admission of gross error on their part to the Gentile nations.(BTW don't quote Zecharia to me, there are umpteen reasons why it doesn't apply)
However there are many passages which support the concept of surprise and astonishment of the Gentile kings in the messianic age in addition to Is 52:15 FROM WHICH THE REST OF THE NARRATIVE FLOWS.
Mic 7:15-16: According to the days of they coming out of the land of Egypt will I show them marvelous things. The NATIONS shall see and be confounded at all of their might; they shall lay their hands on their mouth, their ears shall be deaf.
Is 41:11- Behold all those who were incensed against you shall be ashamed and confounded; those who quarreled with you shall be as naught and be lost.
Jer 16:19- O Lord, my strenth and my fortress and my refuge in the day of affliction; the Gentiles shall come unto thee from the ends of the earth and shall say:"Surely, our fathers have inherited lies, vanity and things wherein there is no benefit.
Indeed Zecharia states that in the messianic age 10 gentiles of different languages will grasp the shirt of the Jewish man and say: "Let us go with you, for we have heard that Hashem is with you." (Zech 8:23)
Thus there is ample corroboration in the Hebrew bible as to who will be incredulous and surprised in the messianic age- the Gentile nations and kings, not corporate Israel.
That's all for now. More to come.
son
bhakti: Please read my previous post again. There is no point continuing any discusion about this particular topic since we share no common ground. My beliefs are based on a logical and accurate translation of the Tanach. My beliefs are Jewish ie. G-d is incorporeal, without form. All descriptions of G-d in the Tanach are anthropomorphic- the best way we understand G-d's attributes given the limitations of human intelligence. G-d does not beget. G-d has no genitalia!Why would G-d have to beget anyone when it is in His power to create ex nihilo? The phrase is used metaphorically in the Tanach to express and define a relationship between G-d and what He creates.
Ex 4:22- And you shall say to pharoah: So said the Lord, " My FIRSTBORN SON is Israel". Did got truly beget all of the nation of Israel? No but he certainly is the Supreme Creator of the Jewish people who have a special covenantal relationship with G-d being His "firstborn son".
Your beliefs regarding begetting evolve from pagan myths of incarnation and the sexual interaction of mythic gods with mortals resulting in other gods or demigods. These beliefs are as unJewish as one can get. Hence there is no purpose in any further discussion regarding this particular topic.
bhakti: Please read my previous post again. There is no point continuing any discusion about this particular topic since we share no common ground. My beliefs are based on a logical and accurate translation of the Tanach. My beliefs are Jewish ie. G-d is incorporeal, without form. All descriptions of G-d in the Tanach are anthropomorphic- the best way we understand G-d's attributes given the limitations of human intelligence. G-d does not beget. G-d has no genitalia!Why would G-d have to beget anyone when it is in His power to create ex nihilo? The phrase is used metaphorically in the Tanach to express and define a relationship between G-d and what He creates.
Ex 4:22- And you shall say to pharoah: So said the Lord, " My FIRSTBORN SON is Israel". Did got truly beget all of the nation of Israel? No but he certainly is the Supreme Creator of the Jewish people who have a special covenantal relationship with G-d being His "firstborn son".
Your beliefs regarding begetting evolve from pagan myths of incarnation and the sexual interaction of mythic gods with mortals resulting in other gods or demigods. These beliefs are as unJewish as one can get. Hence there is no purpose in any further discussion regarding this particular topic.
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D46
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einstein-I have a question for you. Why do you render the spelling of God ad G-d? Maybe I've missed something there.
Pagan myths of incarnation? That the prophetic words of Isaiah in Chapter 9 are a pagan myth?
Isaiah 9:6 (KJV) For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.
He who is "born of a woman" must be man; he whose name is "Wonderful, Counsellor, the mighty God, the everlasting Father, the Prince of peace," must be "equal with God." Thus the union of a divine with a human nature, in the person of the Messiah, was clearly revealed to the prophets of the Old Testament. There wasn't nor was there needed any sort of physical interaction with Mary for God to be born of a virgin in the physical body of Jesus Christ our Lord and Saviour and our Messiah. This same God that performed all the miracles in your Torah, Tanakh or Pentateuch whatever you want to call it, is the same that came to seek and to save that which was lost. That's you and me. Your acceptance or rejection will undoubtedly seal your eternal fate.
Isaiah 7:14 (KJV) Therefore the Lord himself shall give you a sign; Behold, a virgin shall conceive, and bear a son, and shall call his name Immanuel. (God with us).
Pagan myths of incarnation? That the prophetic words of Isaiah in Chapter 9 are a pagan myth?
Isaiah 9:6 (KJV) For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.
He who is "born of a woman" must be man; he whose name is "Wonderful, Counsellor, the mighty God, the everlasting Father, the Prince of peace," must be "equal with God." Thus the union of a divine with a human nature, in the person of the Messiah, was clearly revealed to the prophets of the Old Testament. There wasn't nor was there needed any sort of physical interaction with Mary for God to be born of a virgin in the physical body of Jesus Christ our Lord and Saviour and our Messiah. This same God that performed all the miracles in your Torah, Tanakh or Pentateuch whatever you want to call it, is the same that came to seek and to save that which was lost. That's you and me. Your acceptance or rejection will undoubtedly seal your eternal fate.
Isaiah 7:14 (KJV) Therefore the Lord himself shall give you a sign; Behold, a virgin shall conceive, and bear a son, and shall call his name Immanuel. (God with us).
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DivineNames
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D46 said:
A Jewish translation has it-
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DivineNames
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Re: i53
Lets assume, for the sake of argument, that you have a genuine inconsistency here. Does that show that Isaiah 53 can't be talking about Israel? That this can't be the intent of the author? No it doesn't, the scripture could just be somewhat inconsistent.
Imagine if I were to say that the birth narrative in Luke couldn't be about Jesus, because it appears inconsistent with the birth narrative of Jesus in Matthew. Would this be true? No, they are both about Jesus, it clearly says so, they are just inconsistent with one another.
In Isaiah 53, is the servant not clearly identified elsewhere as Israel?
Free said:
Lets assume, for the sake of argument, that you have a genuine inconsistency here. Does that show that Isaiah 53 can't be talking about Israel? That this can't be the intent of the author? No it doesn't, the scripture could just be somewhat inconsistent.
Imagine if I were to say that the birth narrative in Luke couldn't be about Jesus, because it appears inconsistent with the birth narrative of Jesus in Matthew. Would this be true? No, they are both about Jesus, it clearly says so, they are just inconsistent with one another.
In Isaiah 53, is the servant not clearly identified elsewhere as Israel?
D
DivineNames
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Re: i53
Could this apply to Jesus?
Could this apply to Jesus?