WHY man is unable to choose Jesus and the Gospel

[brightfame52]

Hopeful 2

You are calling someone born with the Holy Spirit in them 'depraved'.

They were born totally depraved in nature, now when God saved them, they are given a new nature that pleases God, yet they still also retain the depraved nature they were originally born with. Before they were saved, born again, they could not please God

 

[brightfame52]

If there are no barriers, then why does God have to draw them?

John 6:44 No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him.

If the Father doesn't draw Joe Blow, Joe Blow cannot come to Jesus.

Also, the Greek word John uses for "draw", Strong's says this: helkó: To draw, to drag
Usage: The Greek verb "helkó" primarily means to draw or drag something or someone. It conveys the idea of pulling with force or effort. In the New Testament, it is often used metaphorically to describe the drawing of people to Jesus or the pulling of a net full of fish.
Cultural and Historical Background: In the ancient world, the concept of drawing or dragging was common in various contexts, such as fishing, where nets were drawn to shore, or in agriculture, where plows were dragged through fields. The metaphorical use of "helkó" in the New Testament reflects the cultural understanding of drawing something towards oneself, often with a sense of purpose or intention.

It also denotes an inner power, metaphorically, to draw by inward power, lead, impel:

Therefore I believe it denotes the New Birth , the person being led by the Spirit.

 

[Whatever]

I suppose then, that your conversion was forced.

Yes! Left alone I would not have come to Christ. I had to have my mind renewed.

 

[Whatever]

Now that Jesus has been “lifted up”, crucified, He draws all men to Himself.

No He doesn't. You are again misreading the word "all."
He does draw all kinds of people to Himself - those the Father has given Him.

 

[Whatever]

The Holy Spirit was drawing me to Christ, long before I knew anything about either of them.

Same here. But I did a lot of resisting. He lets us go through a lot of stuff to get us there.

 

[Vinny37]

....

[False Jn 6:44 is about Irresistible Grace because men are totally depraved dead to god sinners in any age, thanks to Adam]

I think that I understand how TULIP works, and how Augustine and Calvin took that line to resolve a central problem of salvation level 4 seemingly being limited to a postcode. I fear that you start with a fixed theology and squeeze Jesus’ words into your mould. Commenting on Jhn.6:44, D A Carson added that Jesus could excoriate people for refusing to come to him (see Jhn.5:40) (John, 1991:293). There is human sovereignty, hence humans are culpable for their moral misdemeanours and any rejection of messiah.

The petal of Total Depravity is biblically a weed, IMO. Every mortal human being (it’s a bit strange you mention only men) is depraved, but no one is totally. Were that the case, upon conversion, folk would ultimately take opposite moral (and intellectual?) positions on every point. Had they deemed murder to be a vice? Now they would deem murder to be a virtue, etc. Even being dead to God is by and large a relative cutoffness: eg one can be dead to one’s former spouse yet very much alive, and memories can still live both ways. Adam became spiritually dead to God, yet remained alive in his image (Gen.4:1; 9:6). The Athenians were affirmed by Paul as having some desire for God, though few turned to God-in-Christ.

John covers a point I’d made about the historical particularity of Johannine election texts, viz chosen-to-function, whether virtue (15:16) or vice (6:70). For 6:44 it is hermeneutically good to think historically, the sitz in leben. It was spoken in a pre-Christian setting; what did it mean in that particular setting; was it necessarily universalising a principle; if so, what was that principle?

Within the ebb and flow of randomness, as a semi-interventionalist God still steps in, choosing at certain times certain people for certain functions, even if they do not know him (think the messiah Cyrus, Is.45:1,4). We should add that the people thus chosen were themselves by their nature apt for such callings: eg Judas wasn’t suitable to be the Rock; Peter wasn’t suitable to be the devil.

You say to my, [God calls to all who at heart can welcome him], [That will be the regenerated, because everyone else is dead in sin and hate God, the True God, for none seek nor even desire Him Rom 3:11.]

Those unregenerated who welcome him BECOME the regenerated. He didn’t call the regenerated to become regenerated. Those called were dead to him, but it was a relative deadness with a relative hatefulness, as I’ve indicated above. And not all called, come. I believe that dual-election need not apply.

In Rm.3:11, ζητω (seek) is a relative use. 2 Chr.15:12-3 divided the people between those seeking Yahweh, and those not seeking him: not all were cut-off, so presumably some did seek him. The psalmists, quoted by Paul, lamented that no one sought after Yahweh, but presumably exempted himself (Ps.12; 53): I presume that Paul exempted himself, too! Absolutising principles from texts outside of their contexts, is precarious. You should “curse God and die”, and I can show you a biblical text that commands that! Or would you evoke context, here? Many generalities were put as absolutes, as a manner of speaking. We still commonly speak that way.

The idea of common grace/revelation to the gentile world, was held by Paul (Ac.17:27): “Even some of their own teachers had realized the folly of trying to house deity in material temples, worship it with material altars, or represent it by material images, and had perceived, albeit dimly, how near God was to those who would seek him” (F F Bruce’s Acts (NICNT), 1981:359). Neither the psalmists nor Paul contradicted the OT nor God’s global goodness. After about 10 years, even Peter twigged, and Levitical walls came a tumbling down (Ac.10:35).

I deny that there is any true god. There is God, and he is the source of truth and reality, but he is no kind of a god. I am not a polytheist and would not speak as one.

 

[Whatever]

We see His amazing qualities, and love, and power; and are automatically drawn to Him !

Who is this "we?"

1 Corinthians 2:14 But the natural man does not receive the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; nor can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

Unless you think the elect are born physically from their mothers spiritually born again.

The way I see it, the elect are physically born as children of wrath and depraved, and the Lord allows them to wallow in the mud for a while (kind of like the prodigal son) and then makes them spiritually alive at His own timetable.

 

[brightfame52]

Vinny37

The petal of Total Depravity is biblically a weed, IMO. Every mortal human being (it’s a bit strange you mention only men) is depraved, but no one is totally.

Yes they are in that they are totally dead spiritually, yet men manifest their depravity in different degrees and ways, but they are totally estranged from the True God

 

[Hopeful 2]

There are many barriers, deceptions, stumbling blocks (woe to everyone who is a stumbling block to the little ones - it would be better if they were never born).

Better to find out what those barriers are , including logs in the eye, and remove them,
instead of deny they exist and die without Christ.

I guess I should have said "impenetrable barriers".
Paul overcame a lifetime as a Pharisee.
What better example could we have of one searching for, and finding, the truth; in spite of religious, familial, cultural, and governmental, obstacles ?

 

[Hopeful 2]

>> The Holy Spirit was drawing me to Christ, long before I knew anything about either of them.

God has said that no one knows Him, except by act of God.

One of His sunrises was enough for me.

All things have been entrusted to me from my Father; and no one knows the Son except the Father and no one knows the Father except the Son, and anyone to whom the Son chooses to reveal him. Matthew 11:27

Can you name a person or group that Jesus has not been revealed to ?
Correct me if I am wrong, but you seem to think that God is hiding from some folks.

If you want more than that which God has said, as proof, I shall pray that the Lord release you from the chains of your own thoughts, and dedicate you to that which He has Personally said, done, and discussed.

If you think God hears your prayers, you must be a non-sinner too ! (John 9:31)

 

[Hopeful 2]

Hopeful 2

They were born totally depraved in nature, now when God saved them, they are given a new nature that pleases God, yet they still also retain the depraved nature they were originally born with. Before they were saved, born again, they could not please God

John the Baptist never had a depraved nature, as he was born with the Holy Ghost in him already.
Those reborn of God's seed have nothing that is depraved.
Your POV slanders the obedient.

 

[Hopeful 2]

Yes! Left alone I would not have come to Christ. I had to have my mind renewed.

Whom do you suppose God loves more...those He forced to convert, or those who came to Him of their own free will ?

What sort of wife would one have if they forced their mate to love them ?

 

[Hopeful 2]

Who is this "we?"

"We" are those who have put off the flesh and started walking in and after the Spirit.

1 Corinthians 2:14 But the natural man does not receive the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; nor can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

I am no longer just a natural man, since hearing of and adhering to the gospel and the commands of Jesus and His apostles.

Unless you think the elect are born physically from their mothers spiritually born again.

Those who have elected to give up their previous life, in favor of life in Christ, were reborn of God's seed.

The way I see it, the elect are physically born as children of wrath and depraved, and the Lord allows them to wallow in the mud for a while (kind of like the prodigal son) and then makes them spiritually alive at His own timetable.

The 'way you see it' neglects the remaining son.
Where was his wallowing ?

God has manifested Himself to all mankind. Every sun rise declares it.
Those who are drawn to such power, mercy, and glory, will obey the edicts that have come forth from God, His Son, and His apostles.

 

[Bruce.Leiter]

You are calling someone born with the Holy Spirit in them 'depraved'.
I hope you can rethink that.
And why don't you think Jesus was born depraved ?
He had a human mother.

However, God the Father miraculously overrode Mary's sins to make Jesus fully human and fully God in the womb at his conception. The word "depraved" in Calvinist thought, as I know from being Reformed, Hopeful 2, means that every area of our personalities is controlled by sin and Satan, not that we are completely and totally evil, until Jesus saves us.

 

[JLB]

No He doesn't. You are again misreading the word "all."
He does draw all kinds of people to Himself - those the Father has given Him.

I’m not mis-reading anything.

I posted the scriptures.

And I, if I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all men to Myself.” But He was saying this to indicate the kind of death by which He was to die. John 12:32-33

Was Jesus lifted up from the earth?

Yes, He was crucified.

So the condition for Him drawing all men to Himself has been met.

Paul confirms the doctrine of Christ which teaches that God loves the people of the world and desires for them to be saved.

This is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior, who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth. 1 Timothy 2:3-4

• but that the world through Him might be saved.

For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life. For God did not send His Son into the world to condemn the world, but that the world through Him might be saved. John 3:16-17


If you want to try and teach people that God doesn’t love the world, that God doesn’t want all men to be saved then that’s between you and God.

 

[Bruce.Leiter]

Whom do you suppose God loves more...those He forced to convert, or those who came to Him of their own free will ?

What sort of wife would one have if they forced their mate to love them ?

He doesn't "force" people to do anything; he sends the Spirit into their hearts to enable and influence us to come to him. He doesn't drag us against our will; he re-shapes our will to trust in Jesus.

 

[Whatever]

If you want to try and teach people that God doesn’t love the world, that God doesn’t want all men to be saved then that’s between you and God.

Yes, and if you want to proclaim an impotent, weak, and ineffective God who desires all kinds of things that He cannot accomplish, that is between you and God.

 

[Whatever]

God has manifested Himself to all mankind. Every sun rise declares it.

Yes and Paul tells us that men suppress this truth in unrighteousness. It takes a miracle of God to open the eyes of some.

 

[brightfame52]

Hopeful 2

John the Baptist never had a depraved nature,

Bearing false witness

 

[Whatever]

Whom do you suppose God loves more...those He forced to convert, or those who came to Him of their own free will ?

Nobody came to Him of their own free will. God gives them a new heart and mind and then they come to Him of their own free will.

What sort of wife would one have if they forced their mate to love them ?

Have you never heard of a woman who says that when she first met her husband she didn't like him, but he kept pursuing her and finally she came around to find herself falling in love with him? That was a kind of forcing. He was able to change her mind and opinion of him.

You don't think an omniscient God can draw people to Him that at first want nothing to do with Him?