Why People Stumble over Kingdom Now

[Drew]

Verse 17 reveals the allegorical meaning of these "beasts", they are kings that rule kingdoms.

If these "beasts" (and "horns" for that matter) is an allegory for kings/kingdoms, what is "clouds" an allegory for?

I am glad you recognize what should be clear - the Daniel 7 account from which Jesus draws the "coming on the clouds" saying - is highly metaphorical.

I suggest that "coming on the clouds of heaven", in the Daniel 7 context, represents the victory and vindication of the Son of Man character after doing battle with the beasts.

It is not to be taken literally - it is an image of vindication in the sight of a heavenly God figure.

And this is why Jesus uses the phrase in his interaction with Caiaphus: He (Jesus) is telling Caiaphus that he (Caiaphus) will see Jesus vindicated, not least in terms of the rise of the church and the fall of Israel.

I am, frankly, astonished that anyone would think that Jesus is telling Caiaphus that he (Caiaphus) will see Jesus floating along on a literal cloud.

Let's give people in the first century the credit with knowing how to speak symbolically.

 

[Drummer4Christ]

I suggest that "coming on the clouds of heaven", in the Daniel 7 context, represents the victory and vindication of the Son of Man character after doing battle with the beasts.

So Isaiah 19 is referring to Jesus' victory over Egypt?

And this is why Jesus uses the phrase in his interaction with Caiaphus: He (Jesus) is telling Caiaphus that he (Caiaphus) will see Jesus vindicated, not least in terms of the rise of the church and the fall of Israel.

I am, frankly, astonished that anyone would think that Jesus is telling Caiaphus that he (Caiaphus) will see Jesus floating along on a literal cloud.

Matthew 26:64

“You have said so,” Jesus replied. “But I say to all of you: From now on you will see the Son of Man sitting at the right hand of the Mighty One and coming on the clouds of heaven.”


Is "sitting at the right hand of the Mighty One" also a metaphor?

 

[Drew]

So Isaiah 19 is referring to Jesus' victory over Egypt?

I doubt that the Isaiah text is referring to Jesus.

Matthew 26:64

“You have said so,” Jesus replied. “But I say to all of you: From now on you will see the Son of Man sitting at the right hand of the Mighty One and coming on the clouds of heaven.”


Is "sitting at the right hand of the Mighty One" also a metaphor?

In a sense it is.

Just as it is almost absurd to imagine that Jesus is telling Caiaphus that he (Caiaphus) will look out the window some day and see Jesus riding on a cloud (do some of you really believe this?), Jesus is not suggesting that Caiaphus will literallly "see" Jesus enthroned in Heaven - which is how the text reads literally.

I suggest, instead, that Jesus is telling Caiaphus that he (Caiaphus) will have to face the truth that Jesus is indeed both Messiah and the very embodiment of Israel's God. What is going to force Caiaphus into this position:

1. The resurrection of Jesus from the dead;
2. The rise of the post-resurrection church;
3. The judgement of God against Israel as carried out by the Romans (Jesus repeatedly predicted such a judgement).

Jesus is telling Caiaphus that He (Jesus) will be vindicated in respect to His (Jesus') claims of both divinity and Messiahship.

One of these days, I hope that evangelicals will awake from the simplistic fog of literalism. How did this silly notion that metaphor is absent from the Bible ever arise in the first place?

Perhaps on the basis of an exceedingly patronizing dismissal of Bible authors as simpletons incapable of using literary devices. Please - the Bible is chock full of literary devices.

 

[jasoncran]

its depends on context of course, but some churches in america preach the very death of the lord is a metaphor. those are in apostosy. and they are growing in number here in the u.s.

 

[Hitch]

You and I are usually opposite ends,but this one deserves and gets a hearty amen;



One of these days, I hope that evangelicals will awake from the simplistic fog of literalism. How did this silly notion that metaphor is absent from the Bible ever arise in the first place?

Perhaps on the basis of an exceedingly patronizing dismissal of Bible authors as simpletons incapable of using literary devices. Please - the Bible is chock full of literary devices.

 

[Drummer4Christ]

I doubt that the Isaiah text is referring to Jesus.

Yahweh's victory & vindication over Egypt?

In a sense it is.

Just as it is almost absurd to imagine that Jesus is telling Caiaphus that he (Caiaphus) will look out the window some day and see Jesus riding on a cloud (do some of you really believe this?), Jesus is not suggesting that Caiaphus will literallly "see" Jesus enthroned in Heaven - which is how the text reads literally.

I suggest, instead, that Jesus is telling Caiaphus that he (Caiaphus) will have to face the truth that Jesus is indeed both Messiah and the very embodiment of Israel's God. What is going to force Caiaphus into this position:

1. The resurrection of Jesus from the dead;
2. The rise of the post-resurrection church;
3. The judgement of God against Israel as carried out by the Romans (Jesus repeatedly predicted such a judgement).

So "sitting at the right hand of the mighty one" is a prediction of those three things?

Drew, I do not doubt that Jesus presently rules as King. I'm just trying to discern which enemies He has defeated. If "clouds" represents Jesus' victory & vindication, is this interpretation relevant in all instances in Scripture? If not, how does one differentiate, especially when every instance of God "coming on the clouds" contains similar context?

 

[Drummer4Christ]

Clearly, the Bible is a narrative manuscript that contains a variety of literary devices, especially allegory. However, those allegories are based on literals.

If a particular passage is being labeled an allegory, what is the literal passage being used to interpret it?