Why so many theologies?

[francisdesales]

Francisdesales,
As you probably already know, Thomas Aquinas spent a great part of his life demonstrating in his writings how man has no direct contact with immaterial reality, yet shortly before his death (you can read it in many biographies and references of him) Thomas had a direct experience with God that he wrote no more.

I don't know about "direct" experience, since God is an immaterial reality and spiritual writers generally consider that God cannot be experienced "directly".

A friend urged him later to complete his great work, “The Suma Theologicaâ€Â, he answered, “I can do no more, such things have been revealed to me that all I have written seems as straw and I now await the end of my lifeâ€Â.

Yes, such experiences leave us in awe as we look at how we acted before... I don't think Thomas was saying his works were meaningless, but compared to the glory of God experienced as the contemplative would experience it surpasses intellectual concepts of God.

Recently I had an experience with God in the form of a dream that pretty much shook the 40 plus years I have studied the Bible and as of late the simplicity of the cross and God’s love for me is all that really matters, though I have fought so hard to be doctrinally pure. What of Francisdesales, is it possible that you to may someday consider it all straw?

Perhaps. Do you consider all as straw? How about your writings on Universalism? Is that straw?

Regards

 

[Veritas]

I apologize if I seem harsh, but former Catholics who make these claims of their "theological knowledge" sadden me because, for the most part, they left a Church that they didn't even know what it taught... Perhaps a bit of effort would have prevented such a splitting apart of the Body.

This happens in other denominations as well. Just the other day I was talking to someone who had gone to church for a long time but recently decided not to go to church because he thought he wasn't good enough to go. So sad, that's the whole reason church and Christ is there for us.. because we aren't "good" enough. How he could miss that after hearing the gospel over and over I don't know.

 

[francisdesales]

This happens in other denominations as well. Just the other day I was talking to someone who had gone to church for a long time but recently decided not to go to church because he thought he wasn't good enough to go. So sad, that's the whole reason church and Christ is there for us.. because we aren't "good" enough. How he could miss that after hearing the gospel over and over I don't know.

Yes, that is, indeed sad. Probably based upon false teachings that God doesn't love someone unless the person is "perfect" or "holy". Another possible reason is that they do not experience God in their lives like they would expect. Perhaps they see other people "bragging" about how much God is part of their lives, and they do not experience Him in powerful ways, so they naturally begin to think they are not good enough or holy enough. I had fallen into that trap before, as well. After some reading and meditation, I came to the conclusion that God comes to each of us in different ways, depending upon His will. In addition, one must take with a grain of salt these supposed "experiences" that some people claim to have of God. We can know by their fruits if God really is coming to them - and sometimes, their actions don't bear out their beautiful claims of a direct pipeline to God...

Anyways, I can see how a person can fall away in that situation, but if one does trust in God and pray to Him, ACCEPTING what He gives (rather than what WE want to see), we are doing the best we can and living up to the expectation that God desires of us - a child-like faith in Him.

Take care,

Joe

 

[dadof10]

Just the other day I was talking to someone who had gone to church for a long time but recently decided not to go to church because he thought he wasn't good enough to go.

Craig,

Was this person a teen-ager? My kids tried that one when they got to be about 17-18. They also tried the old "I don't know if I believe in [God, the Catholic Church, Jesus, the Bible, insert other excuse here...] any more. I'm evolving."

Translation: I want to sleep in on Sunday morning. :

God bless, Mark

 

[Veritas]

hah hah... No the person wasn't a teenager. But maybe the sentiment is somewhat similar. He had gotten involved with drugs and crime. It seemed to me he was genuinely concerned he wasn't good enough to go, or good enough to be forgiven. I suppose he may not have been really remorseful yet for what he was doing and was just using that as an excuse, but I told him anyways that's not how God works. I told him there's nothing so bad that it cannot be forgiven - If you ask forgiveness, you recieve. He didn't seem to listen though.

 

[dadof10]

hah hah... No the person wasn't a teenager. But maybe the sentiment is somewhat similar. He had gotten involved with drugs and crime. It seemed to me he was genuinely concerned he wasn't good enough to go, or good enough to be forgiven. I suppose he may not have been really remorseful yet for what he was doing and was just using that as an excuse, but I told him anyways that's not how God works. I told him there's nothing so bad that it cannot be forgiven - If you ask forgiveness, you recieve. He didn't seem to listen though.

That's too bad. There may be other, more diabolical, forces working on this poor man than mere laziness. We should all pray for him and everyone else in his situation. I was there myself, for about 15 years, and felt the same, I'm assuming. When I finally allowed God to come through the fog of mostly Pride, I realized, how many tools (including laziness) Satan uses to keep us "busy", to keep our minds off of the Truth.

God Bless, Mark

 

[AVBunyan]

Why so many theologies?

It is because of a mixture of the following:
The rise of Multiple authorities...modern versions (due to leaving the King James Bible as the final authority)
A failure to rightly divide the word truth.
Too many lost folks professing Christianity.
Too much sports and entertainment....in the churches even!
A lack of serious personal Bible study.
A misunderstanding of scriptural justification.
A slow destruction of the local self-governing local church.
Ecumentalism.
And on and on and on.

God bless

 

[Imagican]

Amen Av,

And let us not forget that Satan is consistently and constantly there to offer whatsoever 'itching ears' wish to HEAR.

How EASY it is to 'hear' ONLY what we 'choose' to hear and ignore the rest..........

MEC

 

[dadof10]

Why so many theologies?

It is because of a mixture of the following:
The rise of Multiple authorities...modern versions (due to leaving the King James Bible as the final authority)

Or, the rise of multiple interpretators of Scripture, each with their own biases.

A failure to rightly divide the word truth.

"Rightly divide" according to who?

Too many lost folks professing Christianity.

"Lost" according to who?

Too much sports and entertainment....in the churches even!

No such thing as too much sports :P

A lack of serious personal Bible study.

I think this is one of the main reasons why there are so many theologies, too much personal interpretation, not any submission to proper Authority.

 

[dadof10]

Amen Av,

And let us not forget that Satan is consistently and constantly there to offer whatsoever 'itching ears' wish to HEAR.

How EASY it is to 'hear' ONLY what we 'choose' to hear and ignore the rest..........

I wonder if you would put yourself in this group. The "itching ears" group?

 

[Veritas]

So interesting. ....a question of proper authority.

Looks like we can't quite agree on the delegated part of authority. This is probably naive of me, but at least we can all agree the authority of these authorities is Christ.

 

[francisdesales]

So interesting. ....a question of proper authority.

Looks like we can't quite agree on the delegated part of authority. This is probably naive of me, but at least we can all agree the authority of these authorities is Christ.

The Church's authority rests on Jesus Christ and His commands to His disciples, orders with power to bind and loosen, forgive sins, share the Eucharist, and preach the word to the world. Without the authority of Christ, the Church is just another human organization with no more authority than any other organization.

Craig, my signature line says it all...

Regards

 

[AVBunyan]

The Church's authority rests on Jesus Christ and His commands to His disciples, orders with power to bind and loosen, forgive sins, share the Eucharist, and preach the word to the world.

Paul says:
2 Tim 2:7 Consider what I say; and the Lord give thee understanding in all things.

Paul says:
Rom 16:25 Now to him that is of power to stablish you according to my gospel,

Paul says:
1 Cor 4:16 Wherefore I beseech you, be ye followers of me.

Paul says:
2 Tim 3:10 But thou hast fully known my doctrine,

The risen Christ gave the latest instructions to Paul - you better start with Paul as the Lord commanded.

 

[Timf]

Looks like we can't quite agree on the delegated part of authority.

Usually the word "authority" is associated with control. However, we are to be "controlled" by the Holy Spirit.

Considered the Galatians (not their leaders) were rebuked for listening to false teachers. The responsibility (authority ?) was on the shoulders of the people.

In Hebrews the King James says "obey" your leaders. However, the word obey is more accurately rendered "allow yourselves to be persuaded". The Bible has a higher view of the responsibility (authority ?) of the laity.

Nowhere in the Bible is false doctrine to be "prevented" (controlled). It is to be corrected. The idea that an organization should "prevent" error seems that fastest way to cause it.

The Bereans were praised for their diligence to compare what was said against the Bible. The Bible consistently shows an expectation of each Christian to be monitoring what he hears against the Bible. The idea that Christians are too stupid to understand Christianity unless a trained expert tells them what to do, is good for the establishment of a priestly class and denominational franchise exclusivity, but it does little to help people grow into the image of Christ.

 

[francisdesales]

The Church's authority rests on Jesus Christ and His commands to His disciples, orders with power to bind and loosen, forgive sins, share the Eucharist, and preach the word to the world.

Paul says:
2 Tim 2:7 Consider what I say; and the Lord give thee understanding in all things.

Paul says:
Rom 16:25 Now to him that is of power to stablish you according to my gospel,

Paul says:
1 Cor 4:16 Wherefore I beseech you, be ye followers of me.

Paul says:
2 Tim 3:10 But thou hast fully known my doctrine,

The risen Christ gave the latest instructions to Paul - you better start with Paul as the Lord commanded.

Who left Timothy and Titus in charge of communities - and other bishops left in charge by the other Apostles. I follow Paul by following the authority given to the Church.

Regards

 

[dadof10]

In Hebrews the King James says "obey" your leaders. However, the word obey is more accurately rendered "allow yourselves to be persuaded". The Bible has a higher view of the responsibility (authority ?) of the laity.

If you are referring to Heb. 13:17, ("Obey your leaders and submit to them; for they are keeping watch over your souls, as men who will have to give account." (Hebrews (RSV) 13)) the proper definition, according to Strongs is "to listen to, obey, yield to, comply with". This is especially true because the verse specifically says "submit to them", so that's probably accurate. :P

http://cf.blueletterbible.org/lang/lexicon/lexicon.cfm?Strongs=G3982&t=kjv

The Bereans were praised for their diligence to compare what was said against the Bible.

The Beroeans were Jews that were praised for checking Scripture to see if "it was necessary for the Christ to suffer and to rise from the dead," (Acts (RSV) 17). That is what "these things" (v 11) were. They weren't laymen, proof-texting Paul's message.

The Bible consistently shows an expectation of each Christian to be monitoring what he hears against the Bible.

Where, specifically?

The idea that Christians are too stupid to understand Christianity unless a trained expert tells them what to do, is good for the establishment of a priestly class and denominational franchise exclusivity, but it does little to help people grow into the image of Christ.

Nobody is calling anyone "stupid". There have been times throughout history when Christians have been uneducated. Do you think only the literate can know the Truth?

What helps people "grow into the image of Christ" is following ALL He taught, not just the part that was commissioned to writing.

 

[Timf]

Heb 13:17
Obey (PEITHO) them that have the rule over you, and submit yourselves: for they watch for your souls, as they that must give account, that they may do it with joy, and not with grief: for that is unprofitable for you.

ÀειθεÃθε verb - present middle imperative - second person
peitho pi'-tho: to convince (by argument, true or false); by analogy, to pacify or conciliate (by other fair means); reflexively or passively, to assent (to evidence or authority), to rely (by inward certainty)

In Greek mythology, Peitho (English translation: "persuasion") is the goddess who personifies persuasion and seduction. - Wikipedia

1. persuade
1. to persuade, i.e. to induce one by words to believe
2. to make friends of, to win one's favour, gain one's good will, or to seek to win one, strive to please one
3. to tranquillise
4. to persuade unto i.e. move or induce one to persuasion to do something
2. be persuaded
1. to be persuaded, to suffer one's self to be persuaded; to be induced to believe: to have faith: in a thing
1. to believe
2. to be persuaded of a thing concerning a person
2. to listen to, obey, yield to, comply with
3. to trust, have confidence, be confident

If you desire to understand what is really meant;

http://www.apostolic.net/biblicalstudies/peitho.htm

 

[Imagican]

Amen Av,

And let us not forget that Satan is consistently and constantly there to offer whatsoever 'itching ears' wish to HEAR.

How EASY it is to 'hear' ONLY what we 'choose' to hear and ignore the rest..........

I wonder if you would put yourself in this group. The "itching ears" group?

Funny you should ask. My answer, not likely.

Dad, I came to Christ 'not on mine own' but through the workings of the Holy Spirit. I ran as long as I could and then droped to my knees in submission.

I do not 'want' to hear ANYTHING other than 'the truth'. Whether it agrees with what 'I feel' has no bearing on what I am able to bear.

That I NEED no one to TELL me what is contained within the Word seems to make SOME quite uncomfortable. Yet the Word itself TELLS us to compare what ANYONE has to say with IT to determine TRUTH. I TRUST in The Word well above the words of ANY men or man. I have witnessed the truth contained within it's pages and that has been ENOUGH for me.

I noticed that you DEFENDED sports. TELL ME, of what 'righteous' or 'devine nature' would we find the participation in or watching of 'sports'? And IF we LOVE sports as you seem to have indicated OPENLY that YOU DO, wouldn't the worshiping of such be considered IDOLOTRY? Much like the gladitorial events in Rome, isn't Football so 'close' in comparison as for us to be able to compare the two as 'alike'?

We are told to consistently and continuosly have GOD as 'number one' in our lives. How can GOD be number one to someone who worships sports MORE than HIM? For I have witnessed that MOST 'sports addicts' seem to know MORE about their favorite players than they do about their own professed God. They spend MORE time worshipping their 'sport' than they could even IMAGINE spending on their God. Making their 'sport' in 'my opinion', their God of choice. Devoting minutes a week to their 'church' and then spending the REST of their time chasing after the next 'game' or 'stat report'. Hmmmmm........ Kinda like a 'drug addict' chasing his 'fix' huh?

Music, sports, hobbies, drugs, alcohol, sex, wealth, ect.......... It really doesn't matter what you call it, when you become DEVOTED to IT, then IT becomes that which you worship. And THAT, my friend, IS IDOLOTRY. Now, tell about itching ears..........................

MEC

 

[Imagican]

So interesting. ....a question of proper authority.

Looks like we can't quite agree on the delegated part of authority. This is probably naive of me, but at least we can all agree the authority of these authorities is Christ.

The Church's authority rests on Jesus Christ and His commands to His disciples, orders with power to bind and loosen, forgive sins, share the Eucharist, and preach the word to the world. Without the authority of Christ, the Church is just another human organization with no more authority than any other organization.

Craig, my signature line says it all...

Regards

Now Fran, after all this time we have spent together I can't believe that you would have the ability to state what you have stated above. For what you have stated is absolutely the opposite of what you have been stating for quite some time now. While you state what you have stated above, the truth is that you have chosen to offer your devotion TO a 'church' that may or may NOT be headed by Christ. That will just have to wait to be PROVEN. One day we will ALL surely find out.

But I can say this: I agree with what you have stated HERE:

Without the authority of Christ, the Church is just another human organization with no more authority than any other organization.

And this you have heard me argue for quite some time now. The only difference in what you have stated and what I have argued is that YOU believe you have found THE Church that IS Headed by Christ and that all others that are NOT a 'part of YOUR church' are LOST, (or those that aren't are 'secretly' a part of your chuch and just don't even know it).

Now, how does ANY church that does NOT conform to the teachings of Christ hope to even CLAIM Christ as 'it's' authority and have others that understand the truth ACCEPT it? How can ANY church that 'makes up their own understanding' as they go along 'claim' Christ as their authority when EVERY aspect of their 'made up' theology was ALREADY answered contradictorily by Christ, they just REJECTED it in favor of their OWN?

Amazing how some are able to insist that what THEY believe is ALL their IS to believe.............

MEC

 

[Imagican]

It would seem that the BIGGEST SINGLE reason for 'so many different denominations' would be that the people, when given the truth, rebelled against the 'group' that claimed to BE the 'one true church', and went out on their own and formed different denominations.

Now, the prudent thing to do in the case that we find ourselves presently, would be to discuss the issues that divided the churches to BEGIN with. Once this could be agreed upon and understood, ONLY then would anyone be able to discern what CAUSED the different denominations.

MEC