Why the Church Gathering Has Changed

[OzSpen]

The early church was raised in this teaching: "What then shall we say, brothers and sisters? When you come together, each of you has a hymn, or a word of instruction, a revelation, a tongue or an interpretation. Everything must be done so that the church may be built up" (1 Cor 14:26 NIV).

The Corinthians were taught that everyone has a ministry and each ought to exercise that ministry when they gather as the church.

I wish I were young enough to research the reasons why the church moved from an every-member ministry to the prominence of one person (male) to lead the church. Are you aware of any publications/research that can shed some light on this?

Blessings in Christ,
Oz

 

[Mungo]

The earliest record of a gathering is in Lk 24:13-35) when Jesus meets the disciples on the road to Emmaus.
We have the scriptures explained to us (vs27),
we recognise him in the breaking of bread (vs 31),
we leave to proclaim the risen Lord (vs 33-35).

And in Acts 2:42
"And they devoted themselves to the apostles’ teaching and fellowship, to the breaking of bread and the prayers."
So the Mass (Catholic/Orthodox and I think Anglican/Episcopalian) follows this pattern
The prayers (all through the Mass)
The apostle’s teaching (scripture readings & homily)
Breaking of bread (the Eucharist)
Fellowship (Gk koinonia = communion)

Justin Martyr wrote around 155AD
And on the day called Sunday, all who live in cities or in the country gather together to one place, and the memoirs of the apostles or the writings of the prophets are read, as long as time permits; then, when the reader has ceased, the president verbally instructs, and exhorts to the imitation of these good things. Then we all rise together and pray, and, as we before said, when our prayer is ended, bread and wine and water are brought, and the president in like manner offers prayers and thanksgivings, according to his ability, and the people assent, saying Amen; and there is a distribution to each, and a participation of that over which thanks have been given, and to those who are absent a portion is sent by the deacons. (The First Apology 67)

So Paul's comments seem out of line with that.

 

[Exeter]

And in Acts 2:42
"And they devoted themselves to the apostles’ teaching and fellowship, to the breaking of bread and the prayers."
So the Mass (Catholic/Orthodox and I think Anglican/Episcopalian) follows this pattern
The prayers (all through the Mass)
The apostle’s teaching (scripture readings & homily)
Breaking of bread (the Eucharist)
Fellowship (Gk koinonia = communion)

Yikes. Fancy dress, pageantry, incantations, and rituals do not remotely resemble the assemblies and gatherings of the early Christians.

 

[jasonc]

I'm high church ,in worship we sing together .we are dedicated to have the worship team lead worship but not entertain

 

[Mungo]

Yikes. Fancy dress, pageantry, incantations, and rituals do not remotely resemble the assemblies and gatherings of the early Christians.

Really? Were you there to see these early gatherings?
You are relying on one piece of scripture.

What we see in the Mass is very biblical as I showed.

Moreover Hebrews says the first covenant had regulations for worship and an earthly sanctuary (Heb 9:1). The writer also says that this earthly sanctuary was a copy of the heavenly sanctuary (Heb 9:23-24). Indeed we find in the heavenly sanctuary described by St. John in Revelation many things that were also present in the sacrificial worship of the first covenant:
- a victim (Rev 5:6&12)
- a robed high priest (Rev 1:13)
- other priests (Rev 4:4, etc.)
- an altar (Rev 6:9 etc.)
- lampstands (Rev 1:12 etc.)
- incense (Rev 5:8 & 8:3-5)

These can also be found in the earthly worship of the Mass, when we partake in the heavenly worship.

In addition many other elements of the heavenly liturgy in Revelation are also found in the Mass.:
- antiphonal chants (Rev 4:8-11, 5:9-14, 7:10-12)
- book or scroll (Rev 5:1)
- consecrated celibacy (Rev 14:4)
- intercessory prayer (Rev 5:8, 8:3-4)

And if Paul is your template for the gathering do you agree with Paul's stricture in 1 Cor 14:34-35?
"the women should keep silence in the churches. For they are not permitted to speak, but should be subordinate, as even the law says. If there is anything they desire to know, let them ask their husbands at home. For it is shameful for a woman to speak in church." :yes

 

[jasonc]

Too many see the elders and deacons and the pastor as the workers only and won't volunteer.others see the church for what it gives.we are called to serve .this doesn't mean a season where can't serve is a sin but all of us can do something no matter how small.

 

[232 Ben Yissachar]

The word "church" is a heathen word that is not found in the Greek New Testament.

Ekklesia = Called out Assembly

In the Septuagint Ekklesia was used for the word Qahal which means the same thing.

kirke/circe was a pagan goddess of sex and drugs and was worshiped in circular buildings.

The Greek word kirkos meant circle.

The word "church" derives from the word "Circe". The Oxford English Dictionary gives this etymology got the word "church":

Church - Old English: circe etc. = Old Saxon: kirka

church is the wrong translation of Ekklesia. an abomination, mixing the Holy - His called out assembly with a pagan goddess.

God is Spirit and those that worship Him, must do so in Spirit and Truth.

 

[jasonc]

So we should force all to learn Koine Greek(dead language)and speak that and read that in our worship services ?


Not gonna join that .per my elders who can speak that ,if you learn logic you won't need the myriads of English translations we have

 

[232 Ben Yissachar]

For the comment above, No I am not saying everyone has to learn Koine Greek, there are English Words that are appropriate for Ekklesia such as Assembly, Congregation

And neither have Anything to do with a building or meeting place.

When did the Ekklesia begin?

Acts 7:38​

This is he, that was in the Ekklesia in the wilderness with the Angel which spake to him in the Mount Sinai, and with our fathers: who received the lively oracles to give unto us:

Deuteronomy 18:16

According to all that thou desired of YHWH thy God in Horeb in the day of the assembly-Qahal, saying, Let me not hear again the voice of YHWH my God, neither let me see this great fire any more, that I die not.

Septuagint
18:16 κατὰ πάντα ὅσα ᾐτήσω παρὰ κυρίου τοῦ θεοῦ σου ἐν Χωρηβ τῇ ἡμέρᾳ τῆς ἐκκλησίας - Ekklesia

Matthew 16:18

And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build My Ekklesia; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.

YESHUA did not start a New Ekklesia, He is building upon the one He started at Mt Sinai on the day of the Ekklesia

The previous post is a classic example of a strawman argument, an obfuscation.

 

[Mungo]

The word "church" is a heathen word that is not found in the Greek New Testament.

Ekklesia = Called out Assembly

In the Septuagint Ekklesia was used for the word Qahal which means the same thing.

kirke/circe was a pagan goddess of sex and drugs and was worshiped in circular buildings.

The Greek word kirkos meant circle.

The word "church" derives from the word "Circe". The Oxford English Dictionary gives this etymology got the word "church":

Church - Old English: circe etc. = Old Saxon: kirka

church is the wrong translation of Ekklesia. an abomination, mixing the Holy - His called out assembly with a pagan goddess.

God is Spirit and those that worship Him, must do so in Spirit and Truth.

On the other hand:

church (n.)​

Old English cirice, circe "place of assemblage set aside for Christian worship; the body of Christian believers, Christians collectively; ecclesiastical authority or power," from Proto-Germanic *kirika (source also of Old Saxon kirika, Old Norse kirkja, Old Frisian zerke, Middle Dutch kerke, Dutch kerk, Old High German kirihha, German Kirche).

This is probably [see extensive note in OED] borrowed via an unrecorded Gothic word from Greek kyriake (oikia), kyriakon doma "the Lord's (house)," from kyrios "ruler, lord," from PIE root *keue- "to swell" ("swollen," hence "strong, powerful").

Greek kyriakon (adj.) "of the Lord" was used of houses of Christian worship since c. 300, especially in the East, though it was less common in this sense than ekklesia or basilike. An example of the direct Greek-to-Germanic transmission of many Christian words, via the Goths; probably it was used by West Germanic people in their pre-Christian period.

church | Etymology of church by etymonline

"place of assemblage set aside for Christian worship; the body of Christian believers,… See origin and meaning of church.

www.etymonline.com

And

What is the meaning and origin of the word 'church'?​

The English word "church" comes from the Old English circe or cyrce which is related to the Dutch kerk and German kirche. All of these words derive from the Greek phrase kuriakon doma, which means "Lord's house" from kurios meaning "Lord or master." Because "church" comes from the Greek for "Lord's house," the English word often refers not only to the group of people, but more often to the building where Christians meet.

What is the meaning and origin of the word 'church'?

What is the meaning and origin of the word 'church'? Where did the word 'church' come from and what does it mean?

www.compellingtruth.org

And
church
ORIGIN
Old English cir(i)ce, cyr(i)ce, based on medieval Greek kurikon, from Greek kuriakon (doma) 'Lord's (house)', from kurios 'master or lord'.
Concise Oxford English Dictionary

 

[jasonc]

For the comment above, No I am not saying everyone has to learn Koine Greek, there are English Words that are appropriate for Ekklesia such as Assembly, Congregation

And neither have Anything to do with a building or meeting place.

When did the Ekklesia begin?

Acts 7:38​

This is he, that was in the Ekklesia in the wilderness with the Angel which spake to him in the Mount Sinai, and with our fathers: who received the lively oracles to give unto us:

Deuteronomy 18:16

According to all that thou desired of YHWH thy God in Horeb in the day of the assembly-Qahal, saying, Let me not hear again the voice of YHWH my God, neither let me see this great fire any more, that I die not.

Septuagint
18:16 κατὰ πάντα ὅσα ᾐτήσω παρὰ κυρίου τοῦ θεοῦ σου ἐν Χωρηβ τῇ ἡμέρᾳ τῆς ἐκκλησίας - Ekklesia

Matthew 16:18

And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build My Ekklesia; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.

YESHUA did not start a New Ekklesia, He is building upon the one He started at Mt Sinai on the day of the Ekklesia

The previous post is a classic example of a strawman argument, an obfuscation.

You assumed that because the origin of the word church is from the Greek that all those that have the word church in it's name are practicing a false faith .

Painted with a broad brush .you ignore that some church have a building never says or ever taught it's the building .

My church uses an elder home for a Bible study ,another home for a woman's group and we use the wcf where it defines the body that meets as a called out people to serve .

You are called here by God to worship you are here to worship not by chance by God's pleasure .let us praise God in song and giving and prayer.
Said often by my elders .

 

[jasonc]

On the other hand:

church (n.)​

Old English cirice, circe "place of assemblage set aside for Christian worship; the body of Christian believers, Christians collectively; ecclesiastical authority or power," from Proto-Germanic *kirika (source also of Old Saxon kirika, Old Norse kirkja, Old Frisian zerke, Middle Dutch kerke, Dutch kerk, Old High German kirihha, German Kirche).

This is probably [see extensive note in OED] borrowed via an unrecorded Gothic word from Greek kyriake (oikia), kyriakon doma "the Lord's (house)," from kyrios "ruler, lord," from PIE root *keue- "to swell" ("swollen," hence "strong, powerful").

Greek kyriakon (adj.) "of the Lord" was used of houses of Christian worship since c. 300, especially in the East, though it was less common in this sense than ekklesia or basilike. An example of the direct Greek-to-Germanic transmission of many Christian words, via the Goths; probably it was used by West Germanic people in their pre-Christian period.

church | Etymology of church by etymonline

"place of assemblage set aside for Christian worship; the body of Christian believers,… See origin and meaning of church.

www.etymonline.com

And

What is the meaning and origin of the word 'church'?​

The English word "church" comes from the Old English circe or cyrce which is related to the Dutch kerk and German kirche. All of these words derive from the Greek phrase kuriakon doma, which means "Lord's house" from kurios meaning "Lord or master." Because "church" comes from the Greek for "Lord's house," the English word often refers not only to the group of people, but more often to the building where Christians meet.

What is the meaning and origin of the word 'church'?

What is the meaning and origin of the word 'church'? Where did the word 'church' come from and what does it mean?

www.compellingtruth.org

And
church
ORIGIN
Old English cir(i)ce, cyr(i)ce, based on medieval Greek kurikon, from Greek kuriakon (doma) 'Lord's (house)', from kurios 'master or lord'.
Concise Oxford English Dictionary

The arp a Scottish church in origins used the work Kirk as it was in Scotland that the Westminster confession was made .

The work Kirk is as the Scott for church.i take photos of my church and others in history .one such church in Asheville,nc has a hall called that in name ,a fellowship.

 

[232 Ben Yissachar]

On the other hand:

church (n.)​

Old English cirice, circe "place of assemblage set aside for Christian worship; the body of Christian believers, Christians collectively; ecclesiastical authority or power," from Proto-Germanic *kirika (source also of Old Saxon kirika, Old Norse kirkja, Old Frisian zerke, Middle Dutch kerke, Dutch kerk, Old High German kirihha, German Kirche).

This is probably [see extensive note in OED] borrowed via an unrecorded Gothic word from Greek kyriake (oikia), kyriakon doma "the Lord's (house)," from kyrios "ruler, lord," from PIE root *keue- "to swell" ("swollen," hence "strong, powerful").

Greek kyriakon (adj.) "of the Lord" was used of houses of Christian worship since c. 300, especially in the East, though it was less common in this sense than ekklesia or basilike. An example of the direct Greek-to-Germanic transmission of many Christian words, via the Goths; probably it was used by West Germanic people in their pre-Christian period.

church | Etymology of church by etymonline

"place of assemblage set aside for Christian worship; the body of Christian believers,… See origin and meaning of church.

www.etymonline.com

And

What is the meaning and origin of the word 'church'?​

The English word "church" comes from the Old English circe or cyrce which is related to the Dutch kerk and German kirche. All of these words derive from the Greek phrase kuriakon doma, which means "Lord's house" from kurios meaning "Lord or master." Because "church" comes from the Greek for "Lord's house," the English word often refers not only to the group of people, but more often to the building where Christians meet.

What is the meaning and origin of the word 'church'?

What is the meaning and origin of the word 'church'? Where did the word 'church' come from and what does it mean?

www.compellingtruth.org

And
church
ORIGIN
Old English cir(i)ce, cyr(i)ce, based on medieval Greek kurikon, from Greek kuriakon (doma) 'Lord's (house)', from kurios 'master or lord'.
Concise Oxford English Dictionary

First, Ekklesia does not Mean "the Lord's House"

1 Corinthians 8:5
For though there be that are called gods, whether in heaven or in earth, (as there be gods many, and lords-(kyrios) many,)

and there are many kyrios-lords

Hence, No matter how you seek to slice it, Ekklesia will never mean a place of worship, the Lord's house or any other definition by which you seek to impart into it.

Being that you are a Catholic, and believe that Peter was the first pope, and that YESHUA built His Ekklesia-(the vatican) on Peter and not the confession that He made, that YESHUA was "The Son of God"

And for those that know Him, Know this is a lie from the devil, a spirit of error.

 

[jasonc]

Yikes. Fancy dress, pageantry, incantations, and rituals do not remotely resemble the assemblies and gatherings of the early Christians.

That's simply fellowship after hearing the words in a meeting from the apostles and the Bible and having worship .

Reading with a bias and I'm not fan of the Catholic Church,that predates the roman rite by centuries

 

[Mungo]

First, Ekklesia does not Mean "the Lord's House"

1 Corinthians 8:5
For though there be that are called gods, whether in heaven or in earth, (as there be gods many, and lords-(kyrios) many,)

and there are many kyrios-lords

Hence, No matter how you seek to slice it, Ekklesia will never mean a place of worship, the Lord's house or any other definition by which you seek to impart into it.

I didn't claim it it did.
But you claimed:

kirke/circe was a pagan goddess of sex and drugs and was worshiped in circular buildings.

The Greek word kirkos meant circle.

The word "church" derives from the word "Circe". The Oxford English Dictionary gives this etymology got the word "church":

Church - Old English: circe etc. = Old Saxon: kirka

And I showed you that your claim is false.

Being that you are a Catholic, and believe that Peter was the first pope, and that YESHUA built His Ekklesia-(the vatican) on Peter and not the confession that He made, that YESHUA was "The Son of God" for those that know Him, Know this is a lie from the devil, a spirit of error.

Irrelevant to the topic and a diversionary insult.

 

[232 Ben Yissachar]

I didn't claim it it did.
But you claimed:

And I showed you that your claim is false.



Irrelevant to the topic and an a diversionary insult.

A = 1 - Z = 26

The mother of harlots = 226

The roman catholic church = 226

There are Twelve Gates into the New Jerusalem, and each gate is name after a tribe of Israel

There isn't an RCC gate, or a gate for any of her protesting daughters to enter in by.

Revelation 22:14​

Blessed are they that do His commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.

There are so many abominations that were brought into the Faith once delivered unto the saints by the RCC, it's a long list.
christmas, lent, easter, worship of Mary, praying to saints, forbidding priest to marry and abstain from Food that God said was to be received with thanksgiving.

Who besides the RCC does this passage describe to a tee.

1 Timothy 4:2
Speaking lies in hypocrisy; having their conscience seared with a hot iron;

1 Timothy 4:3
Forbidding to marry, and commanding to abstain from meats, which God hath created to be received with thanksgiving of them which believe and know the truth.


The Catholic Church instructs its members to abstain from meat on Ash Wednesday and Fridays during Lent, a season of penitence and renewal leading up to easter. The practice of forgoing meat dates to the early "Church",

 

[JLB]

The word "church" is a heathen word that is not found in the Greek New Testament.

Ekklesia = Called out Assembly

In the Septuagint Ekklesia was used for the word Qahal which means the same thing.

kirke/circe was a pagan goddess of sex and drugs and was worshiped in circular buildings.

The Greek word kirkos meant circle.

The word "church" derives from the word "Circe". The Oxford English Dictionary gives this etymology got the word "church":

Church - Old English: circe etc. = Old Saxon: kirka

church is the wrong translation of Ekklesia. an abomination, mixing the Holy - His called out assembly with a pagan goddess.

God is Spirit and those that worship Him, must do so in Spirit and Truth.

Interesting.

I guess some “churches” could be described as “circe” which seems to coincide with a circus; a place of entertainment.




JLB

 

[JLB]

Forbidding to marry, and commanding to abstain from meats, which God hath created to be received with thanksgiving of them which believe and know the truth.

The Roman Catholic Church does forbid priest’s from marrying, as well as abstaining from meat.


I could also say that Messianic Judaism teaches to abstain from eating pork and shrimp, as well as things from the law of Moses.




JLB

 

[JLB]

Hence, No matter how you seek to slice it, Ekklesia will never mean a place of worship, the Lord's house or any other definition by which you seek to impart into it.

The Ekklesia is the temple of the Lord, the dwelling place of God.

 

[WIP]

So the Mass (Catholic/Orthodox and I think Anglican/Episcopalian) follows this pattern
The prayers (all through the Mass)
The apostle’s teaching (scripture readings & homily)
Breaking of bread (the Eucharist)
Fellowship (Gk koinonia = communion)

Our Lutheran Sunday worship follows this pattern as well. It is one of the things I found very familiar to my Catholic upbringing when I began to attend the service at this church. When I led the high school Sunday School groups, I demonstrated for my classes how the entire liturgy was one prayer from beginning to end.

Our services include prayers, hymns of praise and worship, confession, absolution, readings from Psalms, Old Testament, New Testament, Gospel, pastoral teaching, Confession of Faith, tithes and offerings, Holy Communion, benediction, and fellowship following the service. That fellowship we enjoy at our current church was a little different to me because the Catholic church I attended and participated in as a youngster included very little fellowship. It seemed when the service was over, the church emptied with haste and people barely said boo peep to each other.

In my local community it seems there is always something going on. This morning, there were a number of ladies at our church to work on quilts that will be donated as they do a couple days each week. Tomorrow I will be attending a weekly prayer breakfast as usual organized by a neighboring Lutheran church. Wednesday morning there is a weekly prayer meeting at a local coffee shop organized by a young man in his mid 20's. Wednesday evening, the ladies at our church will get together for their weekly prayer meeting. Also on Wednesday evening there is a men's Bible study at a neighboring Lutheran church. We haven't done it since the beginning of the pandemic but I've been thinking of trying to get our monthly men's group meeting going again. We typically had men participating from many denominations including Lutheran, Baptist, Amish, Mennonite, Catholic, and others. It was very interesting to share our different perspectives.

In the area I grew up, I heard nothing about anything like this. There is a strong Christian undertone around this area for sure. Even our high school teachers are not afraid to share their faith and so far, it has not resulted in issues. Many of our Lutheran neighbors have their children attend the local Catholic school through the 6th grade. In fact, as treasurer of our church, I have had members include the Catholic school in their Sunday offering.

I believe this is an example of the Church, as in Christ's Church, denomination notwhithstanding.