Why the Church Gathering Has Changed

[eddif]

Parallels that establish truth by comparison:
Joseph in Egypt.

The king of Babylon restored to his kingdom.

Job had more he started with.

Wonder how long this will take?

Noah, King David…..

We changed.

eddif

 

[eddif]

1 Kings 19:18 kjv
18. Yet I have left me seven thousand in Israel, all the knees which have not bowed unto Baal, and every mouth which hath not kissed him.

eddif

 

[eddif]

In the OT God was not in the mighty wind but more a gentle blowing of an ember to restart passion. I go to a burn pile and look for one little piece of wood in the ashes that will glow when I blow on it. Enough blowing and it will be the soured of starting a fire.

In the NT a mighty wind was heard on the day of Pentecost. The wind must have been spiritual .

eddif

 

[for_his_glory]

FHG,

If I relied on my feelings of the Holy Spirit, I would not attend most church services. My Christian experience does not run on feelings. It is based on my relationship with the Lord Jesus.

Oz

It's not about feelings as they can be deceiving, but what I meant was how the Holy Spirit works through others within the Spiritual gifts.

 

[OzSpen]

It's not about feelings as they can be deceiving, but what I meant was how the Holy Spirit works through others within the Spiritual gifts.

FHG,

That's my understanding of how the spiritual gifts work and their purpose for the body of Christ.

Oz

 

[andy pandy]

Really? Were you there to see these early gatherings?
You are relying on one piece of scripture.

What we see in the Mass is very biblical as I showed.

Moreover Hebrews says the first covenant had regulations for worship and an earthly sanctuary (Heb 9:1). The writer also says that this earthly sanctuary was a copy of the heavenly sanctuary (Heb 9:23-24). Indeed we find in the heavenly sanctuary described by St. John in Revelation many things that were also present in the sacrificial worship of the first covenant:
- a victim (Rev 5:6&12)
- a robed high priest (Rev 1:13)
- other priests (Rev 4:4, etc.)
- an altar (Rev 6:9 etc.)
- lampstands (Rev 1:12 etc.)
- incense (Rev 5:8 & 8:3-5)

These can also be found in the earthly worship of the Mass, when we partake in the heavenly worship.

In addition many other elements of the heavenly liturgy in Revelation are also found in the Mass.:
- antiphonal chants (Rev 4:8-11, 5:9-14, 7:10-12)
- book or scroll (Rev 5:1)
- consecrated celibacy (Rev 14:4)
- intercessory prayer (Rev 5:8, 8:3-4)

And if Paul is your template for the gathering do you agree with Paul's stricture in 1 Cor 14:34-35?
"the women should keep silence in the churches. For they are not permitted to speak, but should be subordinate, as even the law says. If there is anything they desire to know, let them ask their husbands at home. For it is shameful for a woman to speak in church." :yes

I have a book of 36 pages that outlines all the mysteries of the mass. In the New Testament it didn't even take up one page.

 

[andy pandy]

Really? Were you there to see these early gatherings?
You are relying on one piece of scripture.

What we see in the Mass is very biblical as I showed.

Moreover Hebrews says the first covenant had regulations for worship and an earthly sanctuary (Heb 9:1). The writer also says that this earthly sanctuary was a copy of the heavenly sanctuary (Heb 9:23-24). Indeed we find in the heavenly sanctuary described by St. John in Revelation many things that were also present in the sacrificial worship of the first covenant:
- a victim (Rev 5:6&12)
- a robed high priest (Rev 1:13)
- other priests (Rev 4:4, etc.)
- an altar (Rev 6:9 etc.)
- lampstands (Rev 1:12 etc.)
- incense (Rev 5:8 & 8:3-5)

These can also be found in the earthly worship of the Mass, when we partake in the heavenly worship.

In addition many other elements of the heavenly liturgy in Revelation are also found in the Mass.:
- antiphonal chants (Rev 4:8-11, 5:9-14, 7:10-12)
- book or scroll (Rev 5:1)
- consecrated celibacy (Rev 14:4)
- intercessory prayer (Rev 5:8, 8:3-4)

And if Paul is your template for the gathering do you agree with Paul's stricture in 1 Cor 14:34-35?
"the women should keep silence in the churches. For they are not permitted to speak, but should be subordinate, as even the law says. If there is anything they desire to know, let them ask their husbands at home. For it is shameful for a woman to speak in church." :yes

If the mass is biblical where does it say you have to dress up in all sorts of fancy dress? I was watching a mass on TV over easter and the clothes the bloke up front wore would have cost more than my whole wardrobe.

 

[andy pandy]

Before I moved to Australia, I lived in the UK and attended a church who gave place to the priesthood of all believers. Their was no programme, no platform, no pulpit, no preacher and no pastor. We were taught to hear from the Lord and if he gave us something to give, that is what we did. One Sunday evening the meeting went from 6pm until midnight. Please to say no one fell out of window. We only ever announced the starting time, Never the ending time because we never knew when that was going to be.

Anything could happen and did. For example one of our members stood one Sunday morning and said the Lord has spoken to him about someone who smokes and if you will respond the Lord will set you free from it. He has given me the number 5 but I do not know what that relates to.

We waited a few minutes to see if anyone would respond. Eventually a visitor stood and said the message was for him because he smoked 5 cigarettes every day. We prayed for him and the meeting went on. Six months later the same visitor came back. During the meeting he reminded us what had happened the last time he was here and he said since that day he had not smoked one single cigarette.

The fact that we do not accept or practice the priesthood of all believers means that we are depriving the body of Christ of 90% of its ministry. To say that one man can know what is needed is totally wrong because that is not how it works in the New Testament.

And the very fact that we deprive the body of Christ of 90% of its ministry is one of the reason why it is so weak and ineffective.

 

[OzSpen]

It's not about feelings as they can be deceiving, but what I meant was how the Holy Spirit works through others within the Spiritual gifts.

FHG,

That's my understanding of how the spiritual gifts work and their purpose for the body of Christ.

Oz

Before I moved to Australia, I lived in the UK and attended a church who gave place to the priesthood of all believers. Their was no programme, no platform, no pulpit, no preacher and no pastor. We were taught to hear from the Lord and if he gave us something to give, that is what we did. One Sunday evening the meeting went from 6pm until midnight. Please to say no one fell out of window. We only ever announced the starting time, Never the ending time because we never knew when that was going to be.

Anything could happen and did. For example one of our members stood one Sunday morning and said the Lord has spoken to him about someone who smokes and if you will respond the Lord will set you free from it. He has given me the number 5 but I do not know what that relates to.

We waited a few minutes to see if anyone would respond. Eventually a visitor stood and said the message was for him because he smoked 5 cigarettes every day. We prayed for him and the meeting went on. Six months later the same visitor came back. During the meeting he reminded us what had happened the last time he was here and he said since that day he had not smoked one single cigarette.

The fact that we do not accept or practice the priesthood of all believers means that we are depriving the body of Christ of 90% of its ministry. To say that one man can know what is needed is totally wrong because that is not how it works in the New Testament.

And the very fact that we deprive the body of Christ of 90% of its ministry is one of the reason why it is so weak and ineffective.

Andy,

Would the priesthood of all believers function best in a house church? I've only been to one house church in my region and there was so much chaos with people falling over and shouting that edification was nigh impossible.

Oz

 

[hawkman]

The early church was raised in this teaching: "What then shall we say, brothers and sisters? When you come together, each of you has a hymn, or a word of instruction, a revelation, a tongue or an interpretation. Everything must be done so that the church may be built up" (1 Cor 14:26 NIV).

The Corinthians were taught that everyone has a ministry and each ought to exercise that ministry when they gather as the church.

I wish I were young enough to research the reasons why the church moved from an every-member ministry to the prominence of one person (male) to lead the church. Are you aware of any publications/research that can shed some light on this?

Blessings in Christ,
Oz

God has truly blessed me in more ways than I can count and one of them would be the type of church services I have attended . A typical service would be like this . The pastor say a prayer and then would ask for any of the congregation that would like to sing in the choir to come forward and sing on the stage closer to where the piano and organ are . After few songs lead by different choir participants the sunday school superintendent would say a few announcements and everyone would be dismissed to their sunday school class rooms . After sunday school everyone is once again in the main sanctuary and invited once again to the choir . Now in the course of these songs the leader of the song may have things to say of encouragement before they lead their song . And they may be "specials" as they are called where a person sings a song solo and they may offer words before they sing .
After the singing is over the pastor delivers the message or does he ?
The Holy Spirit can move and an altar service happens without even a Bible verse being quoted .

Or the pastor does deliver the message and sometimes (not every service) with prompting from the Holy Spirit the pastor pauses during the message and a message in tongues is spoken and then a pause and an interpretation of the message is spoken . This can be followed with more of the message from the pastor or a request for those that have a need in their life to come to the altar for prayer .

Variations on the services have been , no songs sung before sunday school and the choir singing having a director who picks from the choir who will lead the songs .

What are the services like you have attended OzSpen ?

 

[Mungo]

If the mass is biblical where does it say you have to dress up in all sorts of fancy dress? I was watching a mass on TV over easter and the clothes the bloke up front wore would have cost more than my whole wardrobe.

See this thread in Catholicism: Vestments

 

[andy pandy]

FHG,

That's my understanding of how the spiritual gifts work and their purpose for the body of Christ.

Oz


Andy,

Would the priesthood of all believers function best in a house church? I've only been to one house church in my region and there was so much chaos with people falling over and shouting that edification was nigh impossible.

Oz

My experience is that it can work anywhere. And it is not wise to judge something by one example as there is good and bad in everything. In one church I was asked to write the rationale for the house fellowships. One thing I said was that it was not a platform for the leader to exercise his ministry. The one I went to the leader used it to exercise his ministry. One can but try.

 

[andy pandy]

See this thread in Catholicism: Vestments

I do not live under the old covenant.

 

[andy pandy]

In the OT God was not in the mighty wind but more a gentle blowing of an ember to restart passion. I go to a burn pile and look for one little piece of wood in the ashes that will glow when I blow on it. Enough blowing and it will be the soured of starting a fire.

In the NT a mighty wind was heard on the day of Pentecost. The wind must have been spiritual .

eddif

Yes, that is correct as it says the sound as of a mighty wind. In other words it sounded like a mighty wind but it wasn't.

 

[OzSpen]

My experience is that it can work anywhere. And it is not wise to judge something by one example as there is good and bad in everything. In one church I was asked to write the rationale for the house fellowships. One thing I said was that it was not a platform for the leader to exercise his ministry. The one I went to the leader used it to exercise his ministry. One can but try.

Andy,

Can it function at its optimal best in the current congregational worship with one-person as preacher and exercising his spiritual gift as preacher-teacher?

Oz

 

[Mungo]

I do not live under the old covenant.

Nor do I but the principle of giving glory to God still applies.

As I said

When “Fr. Brown” wears beautiful vestments on the altar at Mass it’s not because he is showing off. It’s because he is presiding at the most solemn and important liturgical occasion in the Catholic Church and is showing respect and giving glory to God, just as the priests in the Temple were.

 

[andy pandy]

Nor do I but the principle of giving glory to God still applies.

As I said

I prefer to live under the precepts and example of the New Testament.

 

[andy pandy]

Andy,

Can it function at its optimal best in the current congregational worship with one-person as preacher and exercising his spiritual gift as preacher-teacher?

Oz

From my experience over 50 years a definite NO. That methodology denies a very important scripture teaching that of the priesthood of all believers. It is there to show us that is how God wants things done. To not do that is disobedience and God does not bless disobedience.

 

[OzSpen]

From my experience over 50 years a definite NO. That methodology denies a very important scripture teaching that of the priesthood of all believers. It is there to show us that is how God wants things done. To not do that is disobedience and God does not bless disobedience.

andy,

What are you and I doing to teach the biblical way of gathering, in our own churches?

I have little opportunity to do that as I'm not in the leadership team. It's a frustrating experience.

Oz

 

[Dorothy Mae]

I'm high church ,in worship we sing together .we are dedicated to have the worship team lead worship but not entertain

It would be interesting to attend your church and see if this how it appears to visitors, who likely have an unbiased view. Years ago they were simply called the music team because they played and or sang. Now they are defined by the end goal whether that actually occurs or not.