Bible Study Why The key is given to the man?

[LovethroughDove]

Kidron - Yes. I wasn't quite sure I was understanding your take on it.

 

[Jim Parker]

edited reba

 

[reba]

dont we all have a beam in our eye

 

[AirDancer]

Earlier, reba posted a reminder concerning discussion of Catholic topics.

I'm now reminding everyone that if there are any more comments concerning Catholicism, warnings with points will be issued.

Our ToS (Terms of Service) 2.4 states in part: "...Respect where people are in their spiritual walk, and respect all others in general. Respect where others are in their spiritual walk, do not disrupt the flow of discussion or act in a way that affects others negatively including when debating doctrinal issues, in the defense of the Christian faith, and in offering unwelcome spiritual advice."

 

[Sinthesis]

dont we all have a beam in our eye

I've been told I have a gleam in my eye. In this general area.

 

[Sinthesis]

A few days ago, I went to the St. Peter's Square in Vatican where there is a representative of the landscape .It seems like a key from the sky，which as A symbol of the Lord Jesus gave Peter.

Revelation [kjv] 1:17 And when I saw him, I fell at his feet as dead. And he laid his right hand upon me, saying unto me, Fear not; I am the first and the last: 1:18 I am he that liveth, and was dead; and, behold, I am alive for evermore, Amen; and have the keys of hell and of death.
Matthew [kjv] 16:18 And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it. 16:19 And I will give unto thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven

First,what does the key mean? According to the scriptures both it is related with human's life and death and decides whether humans go to heaven. So why did Jesus give such an important key to Peter. only can I think of the Lord Jesus should be like Peter.How do you think about it? I am confused and I need help.

The key is control over knowledge of the ideal community, the kingdom of heaven, promised to God's people. Access to this community, which would become the Christian Church, was obstructed by the Jewish religious leadership of Jesus' time through their corrupted teaching. This obstruction would be moved aside, and control over access given to those to whom it had been revealed by the Father that Jesus is The Christ. Thus the Apostolic Church through the revelation of God would work out the fundamental rights and wrongs of Christian doctrine, thereby separating Christianity from Judaism.

Mat 23:13 - But woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye shut up the kingdom of heaven against men: for ye neither go in yourselves, neither suffer ye them that are entering to go in.

Luk 11:52 - Woe unto you, lawyers! for ye have taken away the key of knowledge: ye entered not in yourselves, and them that were entering in ye hindered.

Mat 16:15 - He saith unto them, But whom say ye that I am?
Mat 16:16 - And Simon Peter answered and said, Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God.
Mat 16:17 - And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Barjona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven.
Mat 16:18 - And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.
Mat 16:19 - And I will give unto thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.
Mat 16:20 - Then charged he his disciples that they should tell no man that he was Jesus the Christ.​

 

[Jim Parker]

In Romans 7: 24-25 Paul describes the war between the flesh and the spirit, between the old nature and the new man.
And that is what it is....its a war.
In Romans 6:11 Paul tells us to esteem ourselves dead to sin..
In Romans 12:1 Paul tells us to "present our body a living sacrifice", and in Colossians 3:5 Paul tells us to literally put our flesh away, to not let it control us..
So, both Romans 12:1 and Colossians 3:5 are talking about what WE do after we are saved....this is our effort, our part, our discipleship = to resist the devil, to overcome temptation, and to "be holy as God is holy", as Peter writes it in 1 Peter 1:16.

Well said.

So what happens if we neglect or decline to do those things?

iakov the fool

 

[smaller]

Well said.

So what happens if we neglect or decline to do those things?

iakov the fool

The contrariness between the flesh and the Spirit, being factually against each others exists, regardless.

Gal. 5:17

 

[Kidron]

Well said.

So what happens if we neglect or decline to do those things?

iakov the fool

-
Well, there are 2 things that we need to realize.
One, is that all those "works", are to follow salvation., however, they dont impact salvation, they impact our fellowship with God and our Christian witness.
This leads to point #2, which is......we understand that there is Salvation, and then there are works that follow it....
Once we get this, grasp this, then we are able to understand that God does one and its eternal, and we do the other and its temporal.
So, we are saved because of what Jesus did for us, and then we perform, if you will, as those who have been SAVED ought to.
And where the stink comes in, where the error comes in, where the lies come in, where the false teaching comes in, is when a person does not understand the Grace of God and is grabbed by a cult or a heretical denomination or just someone on a "christian" forum, who leads them to misunderstand the difference between salvation and discipleship.

See, the most critical time in a new convert's life is that first few months - year , right after they have been saved, as that is when they are vulnerable to being yanked into the ditch of heresy never to be released again.
And this happens because new converts are so TRUSTING, and they dont understand that the devil comes as an angel of light with false doctrine that seems so right....= why so many new converts end up in some junk denomination, being convinced they are going to lose their salvation, because the Preacher said they can if they dont "LIVE IT".. (present your body a living sacrifice...etc).
And so this person has now become pretty well lost in the web of this type of satanic junk theology, and will probably never do anything for God because these well dressed, well spoken, and often intellectual sounding devils, have ruined the new convert's once beautiful and simple faith in Christ, or the "simplicity that is in Christ" ....2nd Corinthians 11:3..
These lying ministers (often family members) will have soon so subverted them that these new converts will quickly lose the joy of their salvation and over time evolved into a type of almost bitter Christians who are trying to keep themselves saved by works, and once that happens, its pretty much "game over..Tilt".
They are saved, but thats about it, as they are now deeply theologically corrupted and can only become more and more self righteous as they try to keep themselves saved.
You find these subverted types all over Christian forums trying to remove Grace from Believers and subvert them instead with a "works" type setup to "keep themselves" saved.
As a matter of fact, its the only thing they actually do on Christian Forums...., they only want to try to subvert believers.
These type will be on as many Christian forums as will let them write their subversive stuff as this is their only reason to be on a Christian forum...as they are obsessed with trying to get believers into their web of heresy........obsessed.
And where all originally went wrong for them, is within their simple misunderstanding of the distinction between Salvation that God does for us which is eternal, and Discipleship which we do AFTER we are saved, that is temporal.
One is in the Spirit, and one is in the physical realm, and they are not the same., tho heretics will try to make them the same, will try to teach THEM as the GOSPEL... and that is the issue.
Paul spoke about this in Galatians 1:8.

 

[reba]

Kidron nice to learn what your plan is

 

[Jim Parker]

-
Well, there are 2 things that we need to realize.
One, is that all those "works", are to follow salvation., however, they dont impact salvation, they impact our fellowship with God and our Christian witness.

And there's where we will have to disagree. I read it differently.

iakov the fool

 

[Kidron]

Kidron nice to learn what your plan is

Yes.
Im absolutely transparent on a Christian Forum.
All i ever do and all i ever will do is lift up Jesus Christ and give Him and His Blood atonement all the credit for Salvation.
Jesus said in John 14:6 the HE and HE alone is the Way to the Father, and i believe Him.
You wont find me here or on any Christian thread trying to convince anyone that my "church" is the only body of Christ, or that Water baptism regenerates you or plays any part in salvation.
And of course i wont be found DEAD having believed that i can save myself in the "end" if i keep commandments or live a holy life.
I'll let the unbelievers and the heretics have that theology all to themselves.
So, yep, im crystal clear about what Paul taught, and i wont try to take God's Grace away from any Believer, or try to confuse them about their hope in Christ..
You can bet on that., and win that bet every time., Ms Mod.

 

[Kidron]

And there's where we will have to disagree. I read it differently.

iakov the fool

Yes Jp, I know.
i know that you believe that people are spiritually regenerated in water.
So, how can you possibly agree with me about the Blood of Christ?
You cant have both, JP., and you've already made your water choice.

 

[smaller]

well dressed, well spoken, and often intellectual sounding devils, have ruined the new convert's once beautiful and simple faith in Christ,

Well said! And what do those devils want to do to new believers? Why, burn them alive forever for not dancing on the strings of the promoters.

You might admit though, that the people who are being pawned by devils, are themselves ignorant of their prisoners dilemma.

The instant anyone recognizes that the current construct of "man" that is put forth in scripture is that mankind is "mankind" with the obfuscation of the devil's influences, internally, that theology understandings change quite dramatically. There is no "individual" creature called "man."

There is the individual and there is the evil internal influence of Satan, both wrapped up in a tidy little package.

So, does "once saved always saved" really address this fact? Uh, no.

 

[Kidron]

So, does "once saved always saved" really address this fact? Uh, no.

What being saved does, ...or what you refer to as "OSAS addressed"..... is the fact that you belong to God and you cant be unborn again based on your behavior subsequent to the Cross.
The way it works is like this......what cant save you, cant cause you to lose it.
You might think on that for a while, Smaller.
So, what is "being addressed" is that the Blood Atonement is the only thing God accepts to accept you by your Faith, and once done, its done., once the blood is applied it becomes a finished salvation because its based on the Blood and not on what you do later, after you are saved.

 

[smaller]

What being saved does, ...or what you refer to as "OSAS addressed"..... is the fact that you belong to God and you cant be unborn again based on your behavior subsequent to the Cross.

It is not my practice to condemn ANYONE who has simply called upon God in Christ to save them. That is the end of all doctrines from my sights. And I do this for the admitted benefit of my own heart, even if other "believers" can't or don't see it that way for themselves. So, all these people you are calling "devils" are SAVED in my sights, just because....

BUT that doesn't address the conflicts and contrariness that is in the FLESH of everyone, that is "against" the Spirit, and, as such, can not possibly 'be saved.' That's the general point.

The way it works is like this......what cant save you, cant cause you to lose it.
You might think on that for a while, Smaller.
So, what is "being addressed" is that the Blood Atonement is the only thing God accepts to accept you by your Faith, and once done, its done.,

I think your blanket statement is just that. And it does apply to the believer, EXCEPT that is not all "any believer" consists of.

We all bear that which is "contrary" to the Spirit in our flesh. So this blanket statement that OSAS is a sufficient understanding falls short on that count because it FAILS to take account of this matter.

Do I adhere to "OSAS?" Yes. But that is NOT the whole story.

You may decry what you perceive as the 'doctrines of devils' just as I do. But when a believer realizes that we all deal with temptations of the devil, INTERNALLY, then this conversation get's real.

Does OSAS address temptations of the tempter, internally, to SAVE the tempter? Uh, nada. Ain't gonna happen.

 

[Kidron]

Does OSAS address temptations of the tempter, internally, to SAVE the tempter? Uh, nada. Ain't gonna happen.

Its the bible that calls certain doctrines "doctrines of devils". 1 Timothy 4:1, and says that in the latter times, many will be following and teaching this Satanic stuff......and we are in the "latter times".
So, this is why i use the term "devil", as that is were the doctrine comes from, as explained by Paul.
So, argue with him.

Also, you are speaking of the typical daily walk in life of a believer, where we face all types of temptations.
My post was related to being saved, and how this happens, and that is a different subject.

 

[smaller]

and that is a different subject.

No, it's not a "different subject."

None of us by any 'doctrine' are going to be saving ANY of this:

Galatians 5:
17 For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other: so that ye cannot do the things that ye would.

OSAS can not possibly save that which is CONTRARY to the Spirit. Get it?

 

[Kidron]

OSAS can not possibly save that which is CONTRARY to the Spirit. Get it?

And i never spoke of the Blood atonement keeping you from being tempted.
So, what are you talking about?
get it?
The blood Atonement saves you, reconciles you back to the Father.
That is what it does.
THEN, you walk out your Christian life, > DISCIPLESHIP< and its by "walking in the Spirit" that you dont "fulfill the lusts of the Flesh".
And this has to do with keeping yourself steadfast in the Lord, by doing all the things necessary that create your Spirit man to be able to resist being tempted.
PRAYER, PRAISE, BIBLE STUDY,Christian fellowship, being involved in ministry, KEEPING YOUR MIND ON CHRIST, ON THE THINGS OF GOD.
That is how you resist the Temper, and all that pertains to Discipleship which follows salvation.

 

[smaller]

And i never spoke of the Blood atonement keeping you from being tempted.
So, what are you talking about?

I'm saying that OSAS, as it is "commonly proposed" is an insufficient posture to grapple with scriptural depictions of our factual current state. The flesh is contrary to the Spirit, and that is 'BECAUSE' is is subject to innumerable lusts and temptations, which is in fact 'demonic' in nature. OSAS tends to 'excuse' and fails to isolate this matter, and instead leaps headlong in an opposite direction, preferring to cover the "entirety" of a believer with salvation. It's simply not possible to take OSAS seriously to that extension.

IS a believer saved? Yes.

But that extension is entirely too broad.

And traditional orthodoxy struggles with the same issues, seeking to "perform" the entirety of the person into salvation, when that too is simply impossible.

We "all" down to the last of us, do have a VILE BODY that will be ditched when we depart this planet in death OR have our 'change' at the end of this current exercise.

Philippians 3:21
Who shall change our vile body, that it may be fashioned like unto his glorious body, according to the working whereby he is able even to subdue all things unto himself.

Is this VILE BODY saved? No. It can't be and won't be.

So, why is it vile?

Because it, the VILE BODY, factually contains lusts and temptations, which are demonic in spiritual or should I say, anti-spiritual in nature.

You can speak of 'discipleship' but that doesn't change this observation of fact.