Why we chose God

[Danus]

Danus,

If we had no free will because God chose us, then no one would ever be able to give up their faith. We know that some do, because some are even here on this board! And if you say that God didn't choose them to begin with, then they would never have come to the Lord to begin with. That based on your assumption that man only has the will to sin.

Edward, in theses post, and in keeping with the OP, we are discussing Free Will. Specifically man's free will. My response will be limited to that since we don't want to digress into other issues like loosing faith and such. Although those are good topics to argue as well, and could be in line with the OP, But I'm not sure because of your opening statement. "If we had no free will........."

No one, certainly not me, is saying man does not have free will. So that I am clear on this let me say that I believe man does have free will. I am saying man has free will. The will of man is free. However, what's being presented is, to what value, or involvement, is man's FREE WILL to his salvation, or to a lesser means does, or can, man use Free Will to actively choose God with only his free will.

If you've read what I've posted so far, and also look back at user "thisnumbersdisconected" last sentence that I said I liked so much; he states; "The co-existence of God's sovereignty and man's free will cannot be denied, though man's will must become conformed to God's will in order to follow, or come." This follows my point entirely.

1. Man has free will.
2. Man's free will is worthless in choosing God, because man's free will must conform to God's will. Why? because man's Free Will is sinful, and that's why it must conform to God's will which is righteous.

So in summing up your point, I have to ignore the first part since I am not stating that man does not have free will. I'm saying he does. As for man's will conforming to God's, if mans will is sinful than it must first be affected by something else to then conform to something else.

As for what we do know, well, we do know that people reject God. We do know that. If they reject God and have a free will, then they do so freely. However, we can not say that people who say they choose God, freely by their own will do so because we have already said that even their will must be conformed to Gods will.

The good news is, knowing or understanding this topic from a theological point of view, is not necessary, required, and nor is it a prerequisite in any way to salvation. Karl Barth has been on my mind lately because of another thread, and I've been reminded of some of his quotes. Two stand out; "In the Church of Jesus Christ there can and should be no non-theologians." - Karl Barth......... The other is....... "No one can be saved - in virtue of what he can do. Everyone can be saved - in virtue of what God can do."

 

[Danus]

to work out our salvation with fear and trembing? If we are only (having been chosen) subject to Gods will, then what is there to work out with fear and trembling? You, my friend, are incorrect. We do have free will, and can choose to turn against God whenever we choose to. All have a calling and are free to choose. All are tempted, even Jesus was. Jesus was sinless. Jesus was sinless but Jesus was able to choose to obey God rather than give in to temptation. Even 1/3 of the Angels of heaven chose to turn on God and follow Satan. If it were not possible to do this then Satan would not have wasted his time trying to tempt Jesus, for Jesus would have no will but the Fathers. Jesus said of his own choosing, Not my will, but thine be done. Do you understand now?

OK, well I have said over and over that we do have free will. I don't know how plain I can make that. But again, if you want to think of your free will as that which is saving you, OK. Many people do. In fact, You don't have to call yourself a Christian, or believe in God to have the exact view of your all powerful self freewill; the one you hold so high over Gods sovereignty for you.

Many Atheist believe in freewill exactly the way you have described. Even though the objective is different, the powerful source in their life is freewill, just as it is in the way you have described that allows you to choose God totally on your own. Both are using the idea of their own freewill to praise themselves.

I don't know how old you are, but here is a song about freewill. Check it out. It was very popular back in the day, and can still be heard on many secular radio stations.


[video=youtube;nhcM_hx0zxw]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nhcM_hx0zxw[/video]

Here are the lyrics to this song, below. This was written by an atheist who believes in freewill the way you do.


There are those who think that life is nothing left to chance,
A host of holy horrors to direct our aimless dance.

A planet of playthings,
We dance on the strings
Of powers we cannot perceive.
"The stars aren't aligned
Or the gods are malign"-
Blame is better to give than receive.

You can choose a ready guide in some celestial voice.
If you choose not to decide, you still have made a choice.
You can choose from phantom fears and kindness that can kill;
I will choose a path that's clear-
I will choose Free Will.

There are those who think that they were dealt a losing hand,
The cards were stacked against them- they weren't born in lotus-land.

All preordained-
A prisoner in chains-
A victim of venomous fate.
Kicked in the face,
You can't pray for a place
In heaven's unearthly estate.

You can choose a ready guide in some celestial voice.
If you choose not to decide, you still have made a choice.
You can choose from phantom fears and kindness that can kill;
I will choose a path that's clear-
I will choose Free Will.

Each of us-
A cell of awareness-
Imperfect and incomplete.
Genetic blends
With uncertain ends
On a fortune hunt that's far too fleet.

What I am trying to get across, is that our freewill is worthless and in the way. the way to salvation is not found in any mans freewill to choose God because he can not. We are to surrender our will for God's.

 

[Danus]

I agree with this, I just don't agree with you that we are not able to have a free will and make choices after we know God. It is our choice to obey God is it not? It is the right thing to do, to surrender our will to Gods will.

Well, yes but I think a better way to view this is that it is Gods choice that we obey God & his will that turns us to Him.

I don't want to rely on my will. I don't nor can I trust, in my will & so it is the freedom of my will & the wrath of God to my will that I have fear & trembling in my salvation.

It can't be Gods will that I loose my faith, it can only be by my own free will if in fact that I've not surrendered my will to God.

Note in the song by Getty Lee, he chooses his free will, not Gods will.

 

[Danus]

True. We're about the same age. That song has always intrigued me. I get hung up on words and meaning a lot. One thing for sure, Getty must have put a lot of thought into those lyrics. I doubt the vast majority of people listing to the song give much thought to it. Perhaps that's why it's hard to understand the words other than that one line.