why....?

[Jethro Bodine]

1 After six days Jesus took with him Peter, James and John the brother of James, and led them up a high mountain by themselves. 2 There he was transfigured before them. His face shone like the sun, and his clothes became as white as the light. 3 Just then there appeared before them Moses and Elijah, talking with Jesus." (Matthew 17:1-2 NIV1984)

 

[Jethro Bodine]

John wrote Revelation. Possibly John the Baptist?

We know it to be John the apostle, who was exiled to the isle of Patmos where he died an old man. John the Baptist was beheaded even during Jesus' ministry on earth.

"9 I, John, your brother and companion in the suffering and kingdom and patient endurance that are ours in Jesus, was on the island of Patmos because of the word of God and the testimony of Jesus." (Rev. 1: NIV1984)

 

[Adam]

Luke 1:17

And he (John the Baptist) shall go before him (Jesus) in the spirit and power of Elias, to turn the hearts of the fathers to the children, and the disobedient to the wisdom of the just; to make ready a people prepared for the Lord.

 

[Adam]

We know it to be John the apostle, who was exiled to the isle of Patmos where he died an old man. John the Baptist was beheaded even during Jesus' ministry on earth.

"9 I, John, your brother and companion in the suffering and kingdom and patient endurance that are ours in Jesus, was on the island of Patmos because of the word of God and the testimony of Jesus." (Rev. 1: NIV1984)

Regardless, the writing is not "a letter written by Jesus."

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Regardless, the writing is not "a letter written by Jesus."

That is indeed the point.

It's only written by Jesus in that it was dictated by Jesus through an angel to John.

 

[Free]

You may see some that you don't think compare with the Gospel story but I think you would probably be quibbling with details based more on the wording differences than the general correspondences.

The details are significant enough.

And of copurse, you might admit to yourself that the reaction is usually biased against considering this whole idea.
Not that it ought be so easy to get people to entertain the comparison since they have believed, be taught, learned, and understood the opposite since they were old enough to hear the opposite interpretation.

What idea? To my knowledge you have yet to explicitly state just what your point is. If it's that Jesus is Elijah, you're wrong.

But in this case of immortality concerning Elijah, I would question your integrity to avoid the facts that he never died according to the Bible before he went to Heaven.
You and I of course exactly the opposite.

You're questioning my integrity concerning the facts? You are adding facts in and reading something into Scripture that is clearly not there. Elijah was taken up to heaven which is vastly and significantly different than being immortal. I clearly stated that "Elijah may have been made immortal, we don't know." We simply do not have the rest of the story. What is important is that as a human, he was not immortal prior to going into heaven, whereas Jesus has always existed.

There is no greater difference than this: creator and creature.

Then we have the uncanny event of Elijah writing a letter back after he ascend ed into heaven, which is exactly what Jesus did when he sent and signified his revelation to John:


) Both Elijah and Christ.... wrote only one thing, a letter, to people on Earth AFTER they had ascended:

2 Chronicles 21:12 And there came a writing to him from ..Elijah.. the prophet, saying, Thus saith the LORD God of David thy father, Because thou hast not walked in the ways of Jehoshaphat thy father, nor in the ways of Asa king of Judah,<o:p</o

That is one interpretation of that passage and one that I do not think is generally accepted.

 

[tim-from-pa]

Any one with common sense would agree that no one goes to heaven first, and we all die.

That Jesus did not is one reason we call him God, tho.
And if Jesus was Elijah returned after an absence of 800 years, then we ar not surprised Jesus AKA Elijah again went back upo into heaven.

Right?

13 And no man hath ascended up to heaven (as we read about in 32AD), but he, (The Elijah), that came down (after 800 years) from heaven, even (both are one and the same), the Son of man, which is in heaven (henceforth).

Don't we think we're interpreting a tad too much into this verse?

You clearly win the Eisegeses award of the day.

 

[handy]

Dave,

Some questions...

Again, (I've asked this before)... what to you is the significance of Elijah being Jesus? To what purpose is the whole idea anyway?

Also, someone finally mentioned the Transfiguration where Jesus, Moses and Elijah all conferred on the mountian... how is this even possible if Jesus and Elijah were the same person?

 

[Free]

Also, someone finally mentioned the Transfiguration where Jesus, Moses and Elijah all conferred on the mountian... how is this even possible if Jesus and Elijah were the same person?

I would also add the following passage which also shows they are distinct:

Joh 1:19 And this is the testimony of John, when the Jews sent priests and Levites from Jerusalem to ask him, "Who are you?"
Joh 1:20 He confessed, and did not deny, but confessed, "I am not the Christ."
Joh 1:21 And they asked him, "What then? Are you Elijah?" He said, "I am not." "Are you the Prophet?" And he answered, "No."
....
Joh 1:25 They asked him, "Then why are you baptizing, if you are neither the Christ, nor Elijah, nor the Prophet?" (ESV)

And the following which shows Elijah was only a man, not the God-man that Jesus was:

Jas 5:17 Elijah was a man with a nature like ours, and he prayed fervently that it might not rain, and for three years and six months it did not rain on the earth. (ESV)

 

[ezrider]

I don’t know what kind of correlation the OP was trying to make between Elijah and Jesus, but there is a very unique and yet fundamental difference that should give any self professing Christian pause to thought.

Elijah was a man who destroyed the worship groves and slew the prophets of Baal, and he called down fire from heaven to demonstrate the power of God before the children of Israel. Jesus was a man who proclaimed the kingdom of heaven, healed the sick and lame, gave sight to the blind, and forgave mankind their sins to demonstrate the power of God.

John the Baptist came in all the power and spirit of Elijah, and yet Jesus said of John: “Verily I say unto you, Among them that are born of women there hath not risen a greater than John the Baptist: notwithstanding he that is least in the kingdom of heaven is greater than he.†(Matt 11:11 KJV)

It bears repeating again: John the Baptist, in the power and spirit of Elijah was a man who called out the children of Israel and to kings and queens alike, boldly, to repent of their sins. He was the messenger who prepared the way for the Lord. Yet in all this, he that is least in the kingdom of heaven is greater than John the Baptist.

As Christians, we are the be a kind of first fruits, a new creation in Christ; and as Paul states in Gal 4:19 “My little children, of whom I travail in birth again until Christ be formed in you.†As Christ is formed in us is a profound statement, and I emphasize this to make a distinction, because there is much of Christianity that does not reflect that. On the surface, most of Christianity reflects more of the spirit of Elijah, calling for people to repentant of their sins before the coming of the Lord; and that spirit is echoed often throughout this board. Now that doesn’t make it is wrong, but it is significantly more apparent than in the building up in the faith so that we may realize the kingdom of heaven as Christ is formed in us.

To conclude this unique distinction between Elijah and Jesus, and in which one should give pause, I would point to the words of Jesus: When his disciples had asked him if they should call fire down from heaven as Elijah did, and Jesus rebuked them, declaring that they knew not what manner spirit they where of?

Luke 9:54-55 KJV “And when his disciples James and John saw this, they said, Lord, wilt thou that we command fire to come down from heaven, and consume them, even as Elias did? But he turned, and rebuked them, and said, Ye know not what manner of spirit ye are of.

Elijah or Jesus: What manner of spirit are you of?

 

[Adam]

if you are neither the Christ, nor Elijah,

Excellent work.

 

[cupid dave]

DAVE:
Both Elijah and Christ wrote only one thing, a letter, to people on Earth AFTER they had ascended:
2 Chronicles 21:12 And there came a writing to him from Elijah the prophet, saying, Thus saith the LORD God of David thy father, Because thou hast not walked in the ways of Jehoshaphat thy father, nor in the ways of Asa king of Judah,
Revelation 1:1 The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass; and he sent and signified it by his angel unto his servant John:



////


Free:

That is one interpretation of that passage and one that I do not think is generally accepted.

Do you doubt that Elijah had gone to heaven 7 years before the letter was delivered to the king?
The Jews have long held this to be the case.




From Biblical times there is his letter to Jehoram, written seven years after his translation (Seder 'Olam R. xvii.;), and his interference in favor of the Jews after Haman had planned their extinction (see Ḥarbona; Mordecai).

 

[cupid dave]

I don’t know what kind of correlation the OP was trying to make between Elijah and Jesus, but there is a very unique and yet fundamental difference that should give any self professing Christian pause to thought.

Elijah was a man who destroyed the worship groves and slew the prophets of Baal, and he called down fire from heaven to demonstrate the power of God before the children of Israel. Jesus was a man who proclaimed the kingdom of heaven, healed the sick and lame, gave sight to the blind, and forgave mankind their sins to demonstrate the power of God.

True.

In fact, when his disciples tempted Jesus to do what Elijah had done,i.e.; call down fire upon the false worshippers, Jesus said, "you don't know what you ask."
His point was that it was the Jews who were falsely worshipping God, and Jesus had come ti save them, not destroy them.

However, Jesus did call down the fire upon the Roman World, ushering in a New heaven and a New Esrth for 1000 years of Uniuversal Christian monasticism:




Rev. 6:12 And I beheld, (in the days of Theodocius, who established the Holy Roman, Catholic, Apostolic Church), when he, (the Lamb of the tribe of Judah, the off-spring of the root of David;[Rev 5:5]), had opened the sixth seal (of scripture), and, lo, there was a great (sociological) earthquaqe (of institutionalized religious change); and the Sun (Signs of Astrology) became (as) black as (the) sackcloth of (a nun's) hair, and the moon became as blood (of Christ, to determine the very day of the Christian Passover).

Rev. 6:13 And the stars' (i.e.; the twelve constellations of Sun Signs) of heaven fell (from popular grace) unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, (ruined), when she is (destructively) shaken of a mighty wind.

Rev. 6:14 And (Astrology) departed (from popular practice) as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every (Pagan religion and secret society) were moved out of their places.

Rev. 6:15 And (1) the kings of the earth, (POLITICIANS), and (2) the great men, (STATESMEN), and (3) the rich men, (ECONOMIC BARONS), and (4) the chief captains, (PRIESTHOODS), and (5) the mighty men, (MILITARY LEADERS), and (6) every bondman, (CRAFTSMAN), and (7) every free man, (PEASANT), hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks (of the pagan temples);

Rev. 6:16 And said to the mountains (of the previous social institutions) and rocks (of cultural norms), Fall on us, (help!), and hide us from the face (of Papal judgment) of Universal Catholicism), him that sitteth on the throne (Theodocius, who established Christian Rome) and from the (words of) wrath of the lamb, (the Word of the New Testament):

Rev. 6:17 For the great day of his wrath, (the one thousand year reign predicted), is come; and who, (what other God or religion), shall be able to stand (during these Dark Ages)?

Note, Catholic Encyclopedia:
With the overthrow of the old Roman Empire and the victory of
Christianity, astrology lost its importance in the centers of Christian civilization in the West. The last known astrologer of the old world was Johannes Laurentius (sometimes called Lydus) of Philadelphia in Lydia, who lived A.D. 490-565.

 

[cupid dave]

I would also add the following passage which also shows they are distinct:

Joh 1:19 And this is the testimony of John, when the Jews sent priests and Levites from Jerusalem to ask him, "Who are you?"
Joh 1:20 He confessed, and did not deny, but confessed, "I am not the Christ."
Joh 1:21 And they asked him, "What then? Are you Elijah?" He said, "I am not." "Are you the Prophet?" And he answered, "No."
....
Joh 1:25 They asked him, "Then why are you baptizing, if you are neither the Christ, nor Elijah, nor the Prophet?" (ESV)

And the following which shows Elijah was only a man, not the God-man that Jesus was:

Jas 5:17 Elijah was a man with a nature like ours, and he prayed fervently that it might not rain, and for three years and six months it did not rain on the earth. (ESV)

I agree.
John said he was NOT the Elijah, nor a prophet.
He was beheaded and died like any man, not an Elijah who reappeared after 800 years absence.

John did no miracles, nor did he make any prophecy.


But so was Jesus a mere man like us, (until he was baptized).
He came eating and drinking, a winebibber and a glutton.
He was a mortal, one that could die on the Cross, which no god could do by definition.

It was when The Elijah indwelled Jesus, the man, that the spirit of God entered into him, the spirit was what transformed Jesus into the son-of-God, The Christ, at that instance.





Mat 3:16
And Jesus, (the son of man), when he was baptized, went up straightway out of the water: and, lo, the heavens were opened unto him, (in this ritual of Plerosis), and he saw the Spirit of God, (the immortal Elijah), descending like a dove, and lighting upon him, (in a fulling by the indwelling spirit of Elijah):

Mat 3:17 (Then and only then does the son-of-God appear),…
And lo a voice from heaven, saying, This, (now), is my beloved Son, (the immortal Elijah), in whom I am well pleased.

In the rituals of Plerosis, the filling of time or the beginning again of the new time, dramas of excess and overabundance of power are portrayed in the rituals. Specific dramatic roles in these rituals imitate the power of deities in bringing about the renewal of the time of the cosmos. The interpenetration of the human imitation and cooperation with the deeds of the myth creates the dramatic character of the rituals.

 

[cupid dave]

Dave,

Some questions...

Again, (I've asked this before)... what to you is the significance of Elijah being Jesus? To what purpose is the whole idea anyway?

Also, someone finally mentioned the Transfiguration where Jesus, Moses and Elijah all conferred on the mountian... how is this even possible if Jesus and Elijah were the same person?

What I read indicates that Jesus was the mere son-of-man, like you, me, or John the Baptist.
He came (as the muslims like to remind Christians), "eating and drinking" like everyone else, (even to the excess of a wine bibber and glutton).

However, when John baptized him, the spirit of God, like a dove came down from Heaven and indwelled Jesus, transfiguring him for the first time into the Christ (aka Elijah, returned).

Immediately, as had Elijah 800 yeasr prior, Jesus ran into the wilderness and fasted for forty days and forty nights:





Both Elijah and Christ pondered in the wilderness 40 days and forty nights:
1 Kings 19:8 And he arose, and did eat and drink, and went in the strength of that meat forty days and forty nights unto Horeb the mount of God

Matthew 4:2 And when he had fasted forty days and forty nights, he was afterward an hungred.


///

Then, for a second time, Jesus was transfigured again, returning Elijah back to be with Moses. Again, Jesus, resumed the normal state of a mere son-of-man, prepared for the Cross where he, a mortal man, would die.

 

[cupid dave]

The reason why is that in the OT there were shadows of things to come (as Paul stated of the feasts) but the substance is Christ. These were forerunners and prophecy played out.

Now, I hate to burst everyone's bubble here, but Elijah is not immortal. Nobody is and must be raised again in the end when it's time for the Lord to do it.

Elijah ascended to heaven, but that is what we'd call our atmosphere. I don't know where the likes of Elijah or Enoch ended up --- the bible does not say. But they eventually died wherever they were. Nobody ever ascended to heaven into the realm of God.

Perhaps.

We can find examples of other people experiencing tge same account that Elijah and Jesus did, but what we need do is compare the statistiucs in regard to say 24 item where Jesus and Elijah behaved or experienced the same basic things.

To assume that Paul raised a men who fell and seemed dead would compare one-to-one for that one item, but that is the end oif the correlation between Jesus and Paul.

What the honest reader must examine is hnumerous correlations.
There is also the fact that the Tradition of the Jews had long expected, upon his return, that Elijah would do his miracles again.
Add to this that John did no miracles and that the Elijah MUSt return before the messiah appears, and we see Jesus was both, the Elijah and the self sacrificing suffering messiah ben Joseph.

His two transfigurations (Matt 3:16, 17 and Matt 17:2) accounts for this duality.
The Elijah had left Jesus before the crucifixion as the suffering messiah.

 

[Jack Straw]

Would anyone disagree that Elijah was a great man of faith? So, if he was, he died along with the others as the following verse states concerning ALL of the great men of faith:

Hebrews 11:13: "These ALL died in faith, NOT having received the promises, but having seen them afar off were persuaded..."

If the above verse is true, then he was not translated to heaven as tradition has taught.

Moses and Elijah were talking with Jesus on the Mount of Transfiguration. Tradition assumes that Moses and Elijah were alive "in heaven."

This cannot be true because Jesus was the FIRSTBORN from among the dead (Romans 11:29). He was the resurrection and the life. No people had ascended to heaven except the One who had come down from heaven:

John 3:13: "And NO MAN hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of Man which is in heaven."

It wasn't the "literal" Moses or Elijah talking with Jesus. Notice the words of Jesus:

Matthew 17:9: "...Tell THE VISION to no man, until the Son of Man be risen again from the dead."

Jesus tells the disciples that what they have witnessed is A VISION, and it is not literal. If is was A VISION, then Moses and Elijah were not "real men" literally standing there.

In 2 Kings 1 we find that Ahaziah, son of Ahab succeeded him to the throne of Israel. He rules for a few years. Elijah is "caught up" during Ahaziah's time on the throne. We are not told which year it was, but know it WAS during Ahaziah's reign.

Tradition has taught that Elijah was caught up to heaven and never died. But Hebrews 11:13 tells us that all the great men of faith died not having received the promises. Which is correct?

In 2 Chronicles 21:12, Elijah has a word of the Lord for Jehoram, King of Judah. But in 2 Kings 1 Elijah is caught up during Ahaziah's reign of Israel. So, he was in TWO different kingdoms. A "writing" came to Jehoram from Elijah. This "writing" came at least TWO YEARS LATER, AFTER Elijah's catching up. If Elijah was "in heaven" at this time, how did he got a letter to Jehoram?

It was customary for Israel to use names similar to Judah's for their kings, so one must be VERY careful when studying them. There were two Jehorams; one in the Kingdom of Judah, the other the Kingdom of Israel. Jehoram of Israel was also known as Joram (this was to keep from confusion between the two kingdoms).

If you study the reigns of the kings (Ahaziah of Israel and Jehoram of Judah), you will notice that at least 2 YEARS MINIMUM was the time from when Elijah was caught up to the earliest time he could have given the letter to Jehoram.

Elijah could not precede Jesus who was the FIRSTBORN FROM AMONG THE DEAD. Also, Enoch lived before Jesus did. It would "seem" by Genesis 5:24 and Hebrews 11:5 that he was translated into heaven, but this contradicts two scriptures: "And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the son of man which is in heaven." (John 3:13) "No man hath seen the Father at any time..." (John 1:18, 1 John 4:12) Scripture when rightly divided does not conflict in any way so there must be a reasonable explanation.

The King James scholars used as the word "translated," but that is incorrect. The word in the Greek is "METATITHEMI," which comes from two root words, "META" and "TITHEMI." "Meta" means to accompany and "tithemi" means to place in repose, to lay down. Repose means to lie as in death. "Metatithemi" is used 7 times in the Bible and is translated as the following:

*2 times as "translated" in Hebrews 11:5,
*1 time as "turning" in Jude 1:4,
*1 time as "changed" in Hebrews 7:12,
*2 times as "removed" in Galatians 1:6
*1 time as "carried over" in Acts 7:16.

The word "Metatithemi" NEVER means "translated from earth to heaven". It does mean to change position or from place to place, but from earth to heaven is not possible because:

John 3:13: "And NO MAN hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the son of man which is in heaven."

Jesus certainly wasn't wrong; Elijah DID NOT ascend to heaven. Most think of heaven as the place where God's throne is. However, in the Bible the word "heaven" can mean anywhere above the ground. Depending on the context, it can mean in the air or the clouds, or out among the planets and stars, or in the "place" where we like to think God lives.

Several years after he was taken by the chariot and whirlwind, 2 Chronicles 21:12-13 verifies that Elijah was still alive and IN THE AREA… NOT in heaven at the throne of God. Since Jesus stated that no man had ascended to heaven, and since there is evidence that Elijah was alive on earth years after he was taken up by the whirlwind, the correct understanding of "Elijah went up by a whirlwind into heaven" is that he was transported through the air to another place on earth. Hebrews 11:13, John 3:13 also verify this conclusion. In Acts 8:39-40, the Spirit of the Lord caught away Philip, and he was also miraculously transported from one place to another.

God bless and peace. :peace

 

[cupid dave]

13 And no man hath ascended up to heaven (as we read about what happened in 32AD), but he, (The Elijah), that came down (as The Christ, after 800 years: [Matt 3:16,17]), from heaven, even the Son of man, (Jesus), which is (now, after 33AD), in heaven (again: [Luke 24:51).

 

[Adam]

"And none would ascend into heaven if he had not descended out of heaven, the son of One that is in heaven."


The verse is about the necessary requirement, the sacrifice, that would bring about salvation of the whole world. We see this context emerge in the following verses:

"And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up: That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.

For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. "

How can you not know these passages and what they mean? Do you need me to put it in parens in order for you to understand?


"And none (of the all the sinners in the world) would ascend into heaven (attaining the gift of everlasting life) if he (Christ) had not descended out of heaven (taking on weakness, mortality, humility and sin in the human form), the son of One that is in heaven (the Father)."

The passages from John 3:13-16 can be summarized as such:

13 None would be able to ascend if he did not descend:

14 he must be lifted up

15 so that none may perish

16 because God loved the world.

 

[Free]

I agree.
John said he was NOT the Elijah, nor a prophet.
He was beheaded and died like any man, not an Elijah who reappeared after 800 years absence.

John did no miracles, nor did he make any prophecy.

It seems you missed my point. What we clearly see in the passages I posted are that Jesus and Elijah are distinct--"neither the Christ, nor Elijah." This means they are two distinct, different persons.

But so was Jesus a mere man like us, (until he was baptized).
He came eating and drinking, a winebibber and a glutton.
He was a mortal, one that could die on the Cross, which no god could do by definition.

It was when The Elijah indwelled Jesus, the man, that the spirit of God entered into him, the spirit was what transformed Jesus into the son-of-God, The Christ, at that instance.

Oh my. Jesus pre-existed eternally with the Father and there is zero mention in Scripture that Elijah indwelt Jesus. Jesus was neither a drunkard nor a glutton. You have heresy upon heresy upon heresy here. Jesus is God in human flesh, the God-man, truly God and truly man.

Mat 3:16
And Jesus, (the son of man), when he was baptized, went up straightway out of the water: and, lo, the heavens were opened unto him, (in this ritual of Plerosis), and he saw the Spirit of God, (the immortal Elijah), descending like a dove, and lighting upon him, (in a fulling by the indwelling spirit of Elijah):

Mat 3:17 (Then and only then does the son-of-God appear),…
And lo a voice from heaven, saying, This, (now), is my beloved Son, (the immortal Elijah), in whom I am well pleased.

The dove has always been representative of the Holy Spirit. To call the Holy Spirit--the Spirit of God--"the immortal Elijah" is blasphemy and utterly incorrect as it cannot be supported by Scripture in the slightest.

In the rituals of Plerosis, the filling of time or the beginning again of the new time, dramas of excess and overabundance of power are portrayed in the rituals. Specific dramatic roles in these rituals imitate the power of deities in bringing about the renewal of the time of the cosmos. The interpenetration of the human imitation and cooperation with the deeds of the myth creates the dramatic character of the rituals.

I have no idea what you are saying here.