Wicca: 'a demonic cult of rebellion' says leading author

[ThreeInOne]

Hi Sara! I haven't been here much, either. Too many other commitments. But you guys cross my mind everyday.

 

[Havoc]

Re: Re:

Good morning Havoc. I'm sorry I wasn't here to talk to you directly. There are ways to tolerate without accepting things that go against core beliefs. "Lies" is a 2-way street, yes. There are lies/misconceptions in ALL beliefs systems. I cannot believe that there is more than one way to heaven. Jesus said no one goes to the Father except through Him.

I was actually talking moire about the lies that are told about other religions by some Christians (not all, of course). I have no problem with someone disagreeing with me. I expect that people of diffeerent faiths will have different beliefs. I understaand that some even have the idea that their beliefs are "absolute truth", and that's ok for them too.

What I have trouble with is when people tell outright falsehoods about what other religions believe. I've evven had people actually argue with me and say I don't believe what I believe, if you can believe that.

 

[craig07]

I haven't read this whole thread ( way too long ) but I think Wicca is a lovely religion. Peaceful and loving. Why can't we let it be and respect it?
craig.

 

[Havoc]

I haven't read this whole thread ( way too long ) but I think Wicca is a lovely religion. Peaceful and loving. Why can't we let it be and respect it?
craig.

Absolutist religions don't allow for differing opinions. They don't allow God to appear to other people either, although I'm not sure God actually thinks He needs to obey them lol.

 

[Free]

I haven't read this whole thread ( way too long ) but I think Wicca is a lovely religion. Peaceful and loving. Why can't we let it be and respect it?

Because being peaceful and loving does not determine the truth of a matter. Wiccans worship the creature instead of the Creator.

Absolutist religions don't allow for differing opinions.

And "non-absolutist" religions don't allow for absolutist religions' opinions, so there really is no such distinction.

 

[Havoc]

I haven't read this whole thread ( way too long ) but I think Wicca is a lovely religion. Peaceful and loving. Why can't we let it be and respect it?

Because being peaceful and loving does not determine the truth of a matter.

Nor does being arrogant and making claims of truth you cannot possibly prove. Anyone can claim truth. Supporting thaat claim is another matter entirely.

Wiccans worship the creature instead of the Creator.

ROFL. What hogwash.

That's like if I said Christians worship a macaroni and chees dinner. It's not only incorrect, it's ludicrous.

Now I understand that your opinion is that our beliefs are wrong. After all, you are entitled to your opinions no matter how unsupported or unsupportaable they are. But please don't try to tell us what it is that we believe.

Absolutist religions don't allow for differing opinions.

And "non-absolutist" religions don't allow for absolutist religions' opinions, so there really is no such distinction.

Actually there is. Non-Absolutist religions realize that God is bigger than humans can comprehend, so while we may not believe the same as you do, we tend not to make the same sorts of ridiculous claims of absolute truth as you do.

ABSOLUTIST: "I'm right, you're wrong. No I can't begin to prove it, but it's the absolute truth nevertheless."

NONABSOLUTIST: "I believe differently than you do, but I respect your right to believe differently so long as you don't try to tell me I'm wrong based on no more objective evidence than anyone else has. If you ever do get some hard evidence, please feel free to present it."

See the difference?

 

[Free]

Nor does being arrogant and making claims of truth you cannot possibly prove. Anyone can claim truth. Supporting thaat claim is another matter entirely.

I agree, depending on what you mean by "prove" and "supporting".

ROFL. What hogwash.

Do Wiccans not worship the Earth? I admit I could be wrong on what they worship. I haven't read through this thread and it is a bit long to start.

Actually there is. Non-Absolutist religions realize that God is bigger than humans can comprehend, so while we may not believe the same as you do, we tend not to make the same sorts of ridiculous claims of absolute truth as you do.

ABSOLUTIST: "I'm right, you're wrong. No I can't begin to prove it, but it's the absolute truth nevertheless."

NONABSOLUTIST: "I believe differently than you do, but I respect your right to believe differently so long as you don't try to tell me I'm wrong based on no more objective evidence than anyone else has. If you ever do get some hard evidence, please feel free to present it."

See the difference?

I know what you are saying but you are wrong. The simple reason is that you think I'm wrong in believing in absolutes. You are excluding me and my beliefs based on your "non-exclusionist" beliefs.

Do you see the contradiction?

 

[Havoc]

Sorry, but the tired old, "not believing in absolutes is an absolute" ploy really doesn't cut it.

It's not thaat I don't believe that an "absolute truth" exists. I can certainly understand that there may well be a "way" things "are".

However, understanding that such a thing may exist does not mean I have to believe your claim that you actually have it.

Anyone can claim absolute truth. Many different people of radically different beliefs do. Claiming truth, and actually having it are two different things entirely.

The difference between you and me is I understand how ridiculous an unsupported claim of absolute truth is.

 

[Free]

Sorry, but the tired old, "not believing in absolutes is an absolute" ploy really doesn't cut it.

Actually, it does. Saying that there are no absolutes is making an absolute claim.

Regardless, it seems that your issue is that you don't think we can come to any knowledge of what is absolute. That seems like a poor excuse to believe in relativism.

Claiming truth, and actually having it are two different things entirely.

I agree.

The difference between you and me is I understand how ridiculous an unsupported claim of absolute truth is.

Then from your position there is no difference between you and me -- I agree that believing in an unsupported claim of absolute truth would be ridiculous.

From my position however, there is a difference between you and me. The difference is that I understand how ridiculous it is to believe in something that you think is not an absolute truth, or at least don't know if it is true or not. Why believe something to be true if you also believe that it may not be true? Either something is true or it is not. If it is true then it ought to be believed, if it isn't true then it ought to be discarded.

 

[Havoc]

From my position however, there is a difference between you and me. The difference is that I understand how ridiculous it is to believe in something that you think is not an absolute truth, or at least don't know if it is true or not. Why believe something to be true if you also believe that it may not be true? Either something is true or it is not. If it is true then it ought to be believed, if it isn't true then it ought to be discarded.

You are forgetting two things.

1. Just because you happen to believe your claim of truth is correct, does not mean that it is. Anyone can believe their claims are correct, they can even believe it absolutely. What it all comes down to is veracity. The more extraordinary the claim, the more extraordinary the evidence must be to adequately support it. There can be no more extraordinary claim than absolute truth. yet you have not one iota of objective evidence to support it. A far cry indeed from the extraordinary evidence your claim demands to be taken seriously.

2. Most truth is subjective. That is the very nature of truth in most cases. The statement "I am Male" is true for me. It is not true for my wife. It is not a lie for me, but it is not truth for her. It is subjective. My name is Daniel. That is truth... unless you are my son. Truth for him is that my name is Dad. To my wife I am a Husband. To my children I am a father. I show different faces to each, and yet each face I show is truth. Should God be more limited than me?

I would speculate that any truth in the human condition is subjective. I have never encountered any that are absolute, and I doubt you have either. In fact, let's just test that. I have just given you several examples of subjective truth. Are you able to give me even one example of a verifiably absolute truth? I sincerely doubt you can, but please feeel free to prove me wrong.

 

[Free]

2. Most truth is subjective. That is the very nature of truth in most cases. The statement "I am Male" is true for me. It is not true for my wife. It is not a lie for me, but it is not truth for her. It is subjective. My name is Daniel. That is truth... unless you are my son. Truth for him is that my name is Dad. To my wife I am a Husband. To my children I am a father. I show different faces to each, and yet each face I show is truth.

Actually, your examples do not at all prove subjectivity. The statement "I am Male" is an absolute statement about you. It is absolutely true that you are male and it is absolutely true for your wife that you are male. The same is true for your name. Your son may call you "father" but that does not change the absolute fact that your name is Daniel. It is absolutely true that you are your son's father and your wife's husband.

 

[sparrow]

Wiccans worship the creature instead of the Creator.

ROFL. What hogwash.

That's like if I said Christians worship a macaroni and chees dinner. It's not only incorrect, it's ludicrous.

um, Havoc......
since when do the lord and lady say they created the universe?



Free, thanks for saving me the heavy typing.


mark

 

[Cern]

WOW, has anyone noticed this thread has been going (on and off) for over a year now, and it is still filled with rather a lot of hogwash.

Ok, Wicca- a demonic cult of rebellion.... well Wicca is not Christianity and does not follow the Christian God. So from some Christian perspectives that automatically makes it rebellious against God. But then, that would also go for other religions. But strangely labelling Budhism 'a demonic cult of rebellion' doesn't seem to have quite the same allure as 'WICCA' because everyone knows Wiccans and witches worship Satan and have orgiastic rites where they sacrifice babies and produce brood mares for Satan.... no, honestly they do.... I read about it in Doreen Irvines book so it must be true because everyone knows a Christian wouldn't make something up..... don't they? :o

That brings us to the 'demonic' bit though. There are certain Christian perspectives that would suggest that not following God is most assuredly a sign of demonic activity. So there you have it. Any belief system that does not follow the Christian God is 'a demonic cult of rebellion'.

Of course that is what you believe, and you believe you hold the truth. Sadly, where people like Ms Irvine are concerned, the truth concerning the beliefs and practises of other faith groups bears little resemblance to what she has in print. Sadly, the wholesale swallowing of that kind of rubbish only serves to have us Pagans shake our heads in dismay and wonder if those who spout the rubbish are as ill informed about their own faith as they are about the beliefs of others. In short, if you present false information about other beliefs as truth then there is little hope of you convincing folloers of those beliefs that you have any knowledge of ANY truth.

Piece of advice.... if you want to know about Pagans and what they believe then go and ask them. If you believe in the power of Jesus Christ then you know you won't be in any danger, even if your deepest fears about us are true. Oh, but here comes the response that we will only lie to you because we are under the influence of the father of lies...... Have you looked in some of your Christian churches lately? (I hasten to add that this really isn't targetted at all or even most Christians who, from my experience are generally very decent people.)

Heh, long time since I last visited this site. That is what happens when you send out a bulk email to registered members.

Oh, Hi mark.

BB

Mike

 

[sparrow]

*waves at Mike*