Bible Study Will Only A Few People Be Saved? No. A Great Multitude Will Be Saved.

[Fastfredy0]

Much to ponder.

That's what makes it interesting.
The problem is, there's too much to take in and each of us has bias to over come. I've heard several people on this forum discredit theologians that have studied scripture for decades and have a gift for teaching. This is a grave mistake.

Read 3 Systematic Theology books (wisdom in numbers), make notes on each topic ... then better chance to put it all together. At a minimum you can be wrong but have a lot to evidence to support your understanding. :yes

Aside:
Inductive reasoning starts with particular facts and moves toward a general truth to interpret particular facts. Deductive reasoning uses a general truth to interpret particular facts.

No one ever comes to the Bible and simply begins by inductively studying a particular passage. Inductive Bible study leaders may give the impression that they are setting aside their prejudices and simply reading Scripture, but this is not really the case. Baptists tend to read the Bible as if it teaches adult-only baptism, non-charismatics as if it teaches that there is no longer an office of prophet, and Calvinists as if it teaches unconditional election. We all read expecting to find specific things.

In other words, we never see Scripture through completely fresh, unprejudiced eyes. We read particular passages in the light of what we already know ---or think we know--- of Scripture's general teaching. So we both deduce how to interpret particular Scriptures from our general knowledge of the whole of Scripture even as we inductively examine the particular parts of Scripture in order to reach general conclusions about the whole of it. It is never completely clear when we are doing the one task or the other. This delicate, back-and-forth dance that strives to get closer to the true meaning of Scripture is called "the hermeneutical spiral."

When systematic theology does its job well, it is well aware of this spiral, knowing that a system without parts and parts without a system are equally useless for Christian preaching, faith, and practice. We are not free to impose a system on Scripture (which would be a purely deductive approach), but we are at no greater liberty to assume, rather arrogantly, that we are the first to read the Bible just as it is at face value (which would be a purely inductive approach). Imposing a system on Scripture makes the Bible a slave of tradition, while assuming that we are the first to read it just as it is at face value renders Scripture a slave to unacknowledged personal prejudices.

Good systematic theologians, regardless of their differences, always strive to approach Scripture as students rather than as masters. They also seek to gather together whatever Scripture says anywhere on the same topic and thus interpret the particular parts in the light of the whole, even as they once again test their conclusions about the whole in the light of what they find in Scripture's particular parts-and so on. This dance never ends on this side of Glory. Author Unknown

 

[daninthelionsden]

That's what makes it interesting.
The problem is, there's too much to take in and each of us has bias to over come. I've heard several people on this forum discredit theologians that have studied scripture for decades and have a gift for teaching. This is a grave mistake.

Read 3 Systematic Theology books (wisdom in numbers), make notes on each topic ... then better chance to put it all together. At a minimum you can be wrong but have a lot to evidence to support your understanding. :yes

Aside:
Inductive reasoning starts with particular facts and moves toward a general truth to interpret particular facts. Deductive reasoning uses a general truth to interpret particular facts.

No one ever comes to the Bible and simply begins by inductively studying a particular passage. Inductive Bible study leaders may give the impression that they are setting aside their prejudices and simply reading Scripture, but this is not really the case. Baptists tend to read the Bible as if it teaches adult-only baptism, non-charismatics as if it teaches that there is no longer an office of prophet, and Calvinists as if it teaches unconditional election. We all read expecting to find specific things.

In other words, we never see Scripture through completely fresh, unprejudiced eyes. We read particular passages in the light of what we already know ---or think we know--- of Scripture's general teaching. So we both deduce how to interpret particular Scriptures from our general knowledge of the whole of Scripture even as we inductively examine the particular parts of Scripture in order to reach general conclusions about the whole of it. It is never completely clear when we are doing the one task or the other. This delicate, back-and-forth dance that strives to get closer to the true meaning of Scripture is called "the hermeneutical spiral."

When systematic theology does its job well, it is well aware of this spiral, knowing that a system without parts and parts without a system are equally useless for Christian preaching, faith, and practice. We are not free to impose a system on Scripture (which would be a purely deductive approach), but we are at no greater liberty to assume, rather arrogantly, that we are the first to read the Bible just as it is at face value (which would be a purely inductive approach). Imposing a system on Scripture makes the Bible a slave of tradition, while assuming that we are the first to read it just as it is at face value renders Scripture a slave to unacknowledged personal prejudices.

Good systematic theologians, regardless of their differences, always strive to approach Scripture as students rather than as masters. They also seek to gather together whatever Scripture says anywhere on the same topic and thus interpret the particular parts in the light of the whole, even as they once again test their conclusions about the whole in the light of what they find in Scripture's particular parts-and so on. This dance never ends on this side of Glory. Author Unknown

I like what a Jewish scholar once said "God is so much more than the human mind can comprehend or the human language can describe."

 

[JAG ..]

Good points.
If the O.P. were correct, it would mean that we could not trust anything Jesus said.
It's exactly as you've pointed out...
Welcome to the forum.

God ~~ the Father, the Holy Spirit, and the Lord Jesus ~~ inspired the
Apostle John to write " "I looked and there before me was a great multitude
that no one could count, from every nation, tribe, people and language
standing before the throne . . . They were wearing white robes . . . and
they cried out in a loud voice: Salvation belongs to our God . . .and to
the Lamb." Revelation 7:9-10

It is not debatable that this great multitude that no one could count are
Christians or the people of God or the children of God or among the saved.
Neither does it matter where they are now located. Even if you say they are
now in Heaven or if you interpret Revelation 7:9-10 as being in the future,
the FACT remains that the number of the saved is "a great multitude that
no one could count."

So?

So the Lord Jesus Himself ~~ through the Holy Spirit who inspired the Apostle
John to write Revelation ~~ the Lord Jesus Himself said that the number of the
saved was "a great multitude that no one could count."

So?

So the above forever and absolutely eliminates Luke 12:32's "little flock" and
Matthew 7:14's "only a few find it" from being historically predictive of the
numerical size of the Christian Church ~~ unless you want to claim that
"a great multitude that no one can count" really means "only a few."

Best.

JAG


`

 

[Doug Brents]

God ~~ the Father, the Holy Spirit, and the Lord Jesus ~~ inspired the
Apostle John to write " "I looked and there before me was a great multitude
that no one could count, from every nation, tribe, people and language
standing before the throne . . . They were wearing white robes . . . and
they cried out in a loud voice: Salvation belongs to our God . . .and to
the Lamb." Revelation 7:9-10

It is not debatable that this great multitude that no one could count are
Christians or the people of God or the children of God or among the saved.
Neither does it matter where they are now located. Even if you say they are
now in Heaven or if you interpret Revelation 7:9-10 as being in the future,
the FACT remains that the number of the saved is "a great multitude that
no one could count."

So?

So the Lord Jesus Himself ~~ through the Holy Spirit who inspired the Apostle
John to write Revelation ~~ the Lord Jesus Himself said that the number of the
saved was "a great multitude that no one could count."

So?

So the above forever and absolutely eliminates Luke 12:32's "little flock" and
Matthew 7:14's "only a few find it" from being historically predictive of the
numerical size of the Christian Church ~~ unless you want to claim that
"a great multitude that no one can count" really means "only a few."

Best.

JAG


`

This is well put.

As I said above, the two perspectives are both correct when viewed from the proper perspective. The "multitude" looks at the whole body of who is being saved. The "few" looks at the percentage of each generation that is being saved out of the total of that generation.

So if the total of those who are saved is in the Billions (the multitude, the few), then Trillions upon Quadrillions will be lost (the many).

 

[for_his_glory]

Agreed, God knows with 100% accuracy but I don't have to count every drop of rain to know it is raining outside. What you call theories can be authenticated by empirical facts although with less accuracy than God's knowledge. So man can come to some conclusions, even with rough estimates.
For example, assuming those that have not reached the age of accountability go to heaven, we know for a fact a majority of those in heaven never heard of God or Christ before their death (unless they heard the gospel in their mother's womb or some other half-cocked doctrine which contradicts Paul's statement that there is only ONE GOSPEL).
We know that through time billions of people died before that age of accountability and thus never heard the salvific gospel. ALL THESE PEOPLE had NO OPPORTUNITY to be saved. So we can conclude from 50+ verses that say God Elected, chose, appointed, predestined these people cannot be distorted by 'free will' proponents to say:
"God elected them because they elected God" or
"God chose them because they chose God" or
"God appointed them because they appointed God" or
"God predestined them because they predestined God"
.... so those who practice dualism have to admit that it was not the choice of billions of people as to whether they went to heaven; rather, it is God who chooses:

• Acts 13:48 When the Gentiles heard this, they were glad and honored the word of the Lord; and all who were appointed (decided on beforehand; designated) for eternal life believed.
• Psalm 65:4 Blessed is the one whom You choose and bring near to dwell in Your courts. We will be filled with the goodness of Your house, Your holy temple.
• Mark 13:20 And if the Lord had not shortened the days, no human life would have been saved; but for the sake of the elect, whom He chose [for Himself], He shortened the days.

And where do these empirical facts come from? Were people sent out to talk to everyone in the world asking if they were Spiritually born again from above? Just because someone goes to church does not automatically make them a true child of God.

There is no Biblical teaching that I am aware of on the age of accountability as God never identified a specific moment. Some use Isaiah 7:15-16 as proof, but this has nothing to do with those scriptures. Children mature at different paces as they learn the difference between right and wrong not knowing what sin or righteousness is until it is explained to them and they begin to understand the difference.

God knows when real rejection has taken place when the love of sin exists in the heart and when enmity with God is conscious and willful. God alone knows when that occurs.

The age of accountability is purely theological consideration and as far as freewill I will not discuss this as I have done in the past with you as well as wondering. It's only Calvinistic theory without any scriptual support.

Acts 13:48 And when the Gentiles heard this, they were glad, and glorified the word of the Lord: and as many as were ordained to eternal life believed.

You have to go back to vs. 42 to understand that God called Paul to speak the Gospel to the Gentiles and as many that heard also believed and received eternal life. They were ordained to eternal life because they believed.

Psalms 65:4 Blessed is the man whom thou choosest, and causest to approach unto thee, that he may dwell in thy courts: we shall be satisfied with the goodness of thy house, even of thy holy temple.

This verse has nothing to do with predestination or God electing certain people. It's about God's provision through nature that those Jews in whom He chooses to enter His court by that of their belief and faith in God, He will bless them as they vow themselves to God.

Mark 13:20 And except that the Lord had shortened those days, no flesh should be saved: but for the elect's sake, whom he hath chosen, he hath shortened the days.

The elects sake are those who by having faith in Christ Jesus are truly God's own and no one can pluck them out of the hand of Christ. God has chosen to save/elect them by their faith and obedience to His commands, not because He predestined them before the foundation of the world, but that He predestined the plan of salvation through Christ before the foundation of the world.

 

[Edward]

Rev 20:7-10

Imagine the numbering of every grain of sand in the sea to the numbering of the stars in heaven. I can only assume the grains of sand would be more then the stars in heaven being the numbering of the seed of Abraham in whom are God's own. I believe there are more that reject Christ compared to those who are His own.

Those that have rejected Christ that still remain on earth after the beast, false prophet and all the ruling leaders from every nation that followed after the beast are destroyed are those who are the numbering as the sand of the sea. They are the enemy of God that Satan uses to battle against the saints during the battle of Armageddon that are camped upon the breadth of the earth after he is released for a season, Psalms 2:7-10; 110; Ezekiel 36; 37; Rev 20:7-9.

The saints are camped not only in Jerusalem the beloved city of God, but also throughout the breadth of the earth. It's only the 144,000 generational Jews that believe in Christ that have returned to Jerusalem. After the 1000 years are fulfilled Satan is set loosed for a season and goes out to deceive the nations as he gathers the enemies of Christ to battle against the saints as the numbering of unbelievers is like the sand of the sea. As the enemy surrounds the camp of the saints God sends fire down from heaven and destroys the enemy and Satan is cast into the lake of fire. Zechariah 14:1, 2; Luke 21:20; Rev 16:16 mentions the battle of Armageddon when Christ and His army of angels return as Christ plants His feet on the mount of Olives for the final battle as Gog and Magog found in Ezekiel Chapter 38 is the battle of Rev 20:7-9.

I heard a blurb somewhere, forget where, that, if you go away from the city lights on a clear night and gaze into the heavens the number of stars that you see are reminiscent of the multitude who will be saved...and if you turn your gaze downward to the earth, the number of grains of sand that you see is reminiscent of the number of the damned.

 

[GodsGrace]

God ~~ the Father, the Holy Spirit, and the Lord Jesus ~~ inspired the
Apostle John to write " "I looked and there before me was a great multitude
that no one could count, from every nation, tribe, people and language
standing before the throne . . . They were wearing white robes . . . and
they cried out in a loud voice: Salvation belongs to our God . . .and to
the Lamb." Revelation 7:9-10

It is not debatable that this great multitude that no one could count are
Christians or the people of God or the children of God or among the saved.
Neither does it matter where they are now located. Even if you say they are
now in Heaven or if you interpret Revelation 7:9-10 as being in the future,
the FACT remains that the number of the saved is "a great multitude that
no one could count."

So?

So the Lord Jesus Himself ~~ through the Holy Spirit who inspired the Apostle
John to write Revelation ~~ the Lord Jesus Himself said that the number of the
saved was "a great multitude that no one could count."

So?

So the above forever and absolutely eliminates Luke 12:32's "little flock" and
Matthew 7:14's "only a few find it" from being historically predictive of the
numerical size of the Christian Church ~~ unless you want to claim that
"a great multitude that no one can count" really means "only a few."

Best.

JAG


`

Well Jag....
You've got yourself a very interesting conflict in scripture here.

Was Jesus correct in saying that only a few find the narrow gate?
Was He wrong?
Does the majority of persons you know on the road to the narrow gate?

OR

Is there a great multitude that is going to be saved?
Someone on this thread has already reconciled this conflict,
but, apparently, you didn't read post no. 4 by Doug Brents .

 

[for_his_glory]

I heard a blurb somewhere, forget where, that, if you go away from the city lights on a clear night and gaze into the heavens the number of stars that you see are reminiscent of the multitude who will be saved...and if you turn your gaze downward to the earth, the number of grains of sand that you see is reminiscent of the number of the damned.

I use to live in the country before moving to SC and the stars are so numerous as they go from what the eye can see and even further into infinity having no beginning or end, where the grains of sand are confined, but yet the numbering great. Who knows the heart of a man other than God.

 

[Fastfredy0]

And where do these empirical facts come from?

By observation ... asking questions ... collecting and correlating data. F Like I believe it when someone says that nearly everyone has a nose. I believe the stories of missionaries visiting tribes that never heard of Christ. This is NOT ROCKET SCIENCE ... just observation. (Aside: I can't believe you do not know this. The problem, as I see it, is the facts don't back up your theology in some places that I have pointed out.)

Were people sent out to talk to everyone in the world asking if they were Spiritually born again from above?

Yes, to some degree. But the question is "does everyone without exception, have an opportunity to be saved". If I find even ONE person then I have proven the everyone without exception can be saved. I know you are an intelligent person, so I find it difficult to believe you are asking questions and making proposals like this.

There is no Biblical teaching that I am aware of on the age of accountability

Agreed. (Aside: I know of 3 or 4 places where people point to scripture to support the idea ... those scriptures are far from conclusive in my opinion)
... but my point is made no matter where the final destiny those who are aborted, miscarriages, etc. go ... THEIR FINAL DESTINY was determined/chosen by God and not self-determined as "freewill / deism" suggests. (Aside: though from a 'freewill' point I will I suppose a mothers can determine the final destiny of an aborted child ... as 'free will' means free from God's determination but I believe 'free will' is intended to mean 'free' from any outside influence)

God knows when real rejection has taken place when the love of sin exists in the heart and when enmity with God is conscious and willful. God alone knows when that occurs.

Agreed. Scripture has define "salvific faith". Thus we know that an aborted baby cannot have faith and therefore is not FREE to decide. Thus the decision/choice/predestination/election of billions of people is unquestionably determines be God and NOT those that preach self-determined 'free will'.

Acts 13:48 And when the Gentiles heard this, they were glad, and glorified the word of the Lord: and as many as were ordained to eternal life believed.

You have to go back to vs. 42 to understand that God called Paul to speak the Gospel to the Gentiles and as many that heard also believed and received eternal life. They were ordained to eternal life because they believed.

This is WHAT HAPPENED and not WHY. You side of the argument is so weak that is looks at the results and then has the audacity to find a CAUSE the is not stated.

it's about God's provision through nature that those Jews in whom He chooses to enter His court by that of their belief and faith in God,

Saying God chooses according to our choice ... So God who shares His glory with no one gives glory to man for what he has done via self-determination. Those people should be PROUD of what they have done independent of God. (dualism ... another power in the world )

John 1:12 But to as many as did receive and welcome Him, He gave the authority (power, privilege, right) to become the children of God, that is, to those who believe in (adhere to, trust in, and rely on) His name— 13 Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh [the flesh is carnal and flesh always lusteth against the Spirit], nor of the will of man, but of GOD.

Luke 17:5 The apostles said to the Lord, “Increase our faith!” It would seem that at a minimum God can be the source of a portion of our faith.

Luke 22:32 Jesus said to Peter, "I have prayed for you, Simon, that your faith may not fail". He did not ask Peter to maintain his faith so that God could continue to favor him, but it is up to God whether a person's faith fails.

John 6:29 Jesus answered, “This is the work of God: that you believe [adhere to, trust in, rely on, and have faith] in the One whom He has sent.” Clearly this verse defines faith as a work. Thus faith must originate from God since God’s grace does not include man works (Galatians 5:2).

John 15:5 I am the Vine; you are the branches. Whoever lives in Me and I in him bears much (abundant) fruit. However, apart from Me [cut off from vital union with Me] you can do nothing. [It seems unbelievable to think and unbeliever can, of his own free will, have faith when believers can do nothing without Christ]

Romans 12:3b as God has apportioned to each a degree of faith [and a purpose designed for service]. Note: It is God doing the apportioning

1 Corinthians 4:7 "Who maketh thee to differ from another? And what hast thou that thou didst not receive? Now if thou didst receive it, why dost thou glory, as if thou hadst not received it?". God had given them everything they had; everything includes faith for those chosen

1 Corinthians 12:3b And no one can [really] say, Jesus is [my] Lord, except by and under the power and influence of the Holy Spirit. [The confession of the Lordship of Christ in saving faith is a gift of the Holy Spirit. Tom Constable: no one would sincerely acknowledge that Jesus is Lord, Savior and or Sovereign, unless the Holy Spirit had some influence over him or her

Galatians 5:22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, Faith is indeed the fruit of the Spirit, and therefore the gift of the Spirit must precede the exercise of Faith. While the translation speak of “faithfulness”, the Greek word is simply “faith.” The HCSB uses the word FAITH.

etc., etc. etc.

 

[for_his_glory]

By observation ... asking questions ... collecting and correlating data. F Like I believe it when someone says that nearly everyone has a nose. I believe the stories of missionaries visiting tribes that never heard of Christ. This is NOT ROCKET SCIENCE ... just observation. (Aside: I can't believe you do not know this. The problem, as I see it, is the facts don't back up your theology in some places that I have pointed out.)


Yes, to some degree. But the question is "does everyone without exception, have an opportunity to be saved". If I find even ONE person then I have proven the everyone without exception can be saved. I know you are an intelligent person, so I find it difficult to believe you are asking questions and making proposals like this.



Agreed. (Aside: I know of 3 or 4 places where people point to scripture to support the idea ... those scriptures are far from conclusive in my opinion)
... but my point is made no matter where the final destiny those who are aborted, miscarriages, etc. go ... THEIR FINAL DESTINY was determined/chosen by God and not self-determined as "freewill / deism" suggests. (Aside: though from a 'freewill' point I will I suppose a mothers can determine the final destiny of an aborted child ... as 'free will' means free from God's determination but I believe 'free will' is intended to mean 'free' from any outside influence)


Agreed. Scripture has define "salvific faith". Thus we know that an aborted baby cannot have faith and therefore is not FREE to decide. Thus the decision/choice/predestination/election of billions of people is unquestionably determines be God and NOT those that preach self-determined 'free will'.




This is WHAT HAPPENED and not WHY. You side of the argument is so weak that is looks at the results and then has the audacity to find a CAUSE the is not stated.


Saying God chooses according to our choice ... So God who shares His glory with no one gives glory to man for what he has done via self-determination. Those people should be PROUD of what they have done independent of God. (dualism ... another power in the world )

John 1:12 But to as many as did receive and welcome Him, He gave the authority (power, privilege, right) to become the children of God, that is, to those who believe in (adhere to, trust in, and rely on) His name— 13 Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh [the flesh is carnal and flesh always lusteth against the Spirit], nor of the will of man, but of GOD.

Luke 17:5 The apostles said to the Lord, “Increase our faith!” It would seem that at a minimum God can be the source of a portion of our faith.

Luke 22:32 Jesus said to Peter, "I have prayed for you, Simon, that your faith may not fail". He did not ask Peter to maintain his faith so that God could continue to favor him, but it is up to God whether a person's faith fails.

John 6:29 Jesus answered, “This is the work of God: that you believe [adhere to, trust in, rely on, and have faith] in the One whom He has sent.” Clearly this verse defines faith as a work. Thus faith must originate from God since God’s grace does not include man works (Galatians 5:2).

John 15:5 I am the Vine; you are the branches. Whoever lives in Me and I in him bears much (abundant) fruit. However, apart from Me [cut off from vital union with Me] you can do nothing. [It seems unbelievable to think and unbeliever can, of his own free will, have faith when believers can do nothing without Christ]

Romans 12:3b as God has apportioned to each a degree of faith [and a purpose designed for service]. Note: It is God doing the apportioning

1 Corinthians 4:7 "Who maketh thee to differ from another? And what hast thou that thou didst not receive? Now if thou didst receive it, why dost thou glory, as if thou hadst not received it?". God had given them everything they had; everything includes faith for those chosen

1 Corinthians 12:3b And no one can [really] say, Jesus is [my] Lord, except by and under the power and influence of the Holy Spirit. [The confession of the Lordship of Christ in saving faith is a gift of the Holy Spirit. Tom Constable: no one would sincerely acknowledge that Jesus is Lord, Savior and or Sovereign, unless the Holy Spirit had some influence over him or her

Galatians 5:22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, Faith is indeed the fruit of the Spirit, and therefore the gift of the Spirit must precede the exercise of Faith. While the translation speak of “faithfulness”, the Greek word is simply “faith.” The HCSB uses the word FAITH.

etc., etc. etc.

I have pretty much given all I can to this conversation and we will never see eye to eye, especially when it comes to the teachings of Calvinism and their theories and random definition of scripture that does not support their theories. It's time for me to bow out. May God bless you.

 

[Fastfredy0]

I have pretty much given all I can to this conversation and we will never see eye to eye,

agreed

especially when it comes to the teachings of Calvinism and their theories and random definition of scripture that does not support their theories.

The statement lack foundation, so I will respond in kind:
.... especially when it comes to the teachings of for_his-gloryism and her theories and random definition of scripture that does not support her theories.

May God bless you.

You also. I don't agree with some of your theology... but I see you as a fine Christian.

1. Matthew 11:27 All things have been entrusted and delivered to Me by My Father; and no one fully knows and accurately understands the Son except the Father, and no one fully knows and accurately understands the Father except the Son and anyone to whom the Son deliberately wills to make Him known. [the will of the Son determines who knows God, not the will of man by the power of dualism]
2. John 1:12 But to as many as did receive and welcome Him, He gave the authority (power, privilege, right) to become the children of God, that is, to those who believe in (adhere to, trust in, and rely on) His name— 13 Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh [the flesh is carnal and flesh always lusteth against the Spirit], nor of the will of man, but of GOD. Martin Luther: they become the sons of God, neither by the birth of the flesh, nor by a devoted observance of the law, nor by any devoted human effort whatever, but by a Divine birth only. Those three negative statements stress the fact that salvation is not obtainable through any racial or ethnic heritage ( blood ), personal desire ( flesh ), or man-made system ( man ). (See also Matt. 8:11–12; Luke 3:8; Gal. 3:28–29.) John MacArthur
3. John 3:27 John replied, “A man can receive nothing [he can claim nothing at all] unless it has been granted to him from heaven [for there is no other source than the sovereign will of God]. Does man have a “Free-will” over God, that God should do and obey in those things which man will? Surely not. Yet, this is what "free will", self-determination teaches. Oh praise the power of man who can save himself against God's statement "that no one seeks God"
4. Romans 8:28 And we know that for those who love God all things [divine undertakings-divine foreknowledge, divine predestination, divine calling, divine justification and glorification] work together for good, for those who are called [effectual call] according to his purpose [God’s purpose CANNOT be thwarted]. 29 For those whom he foreknew [foreknown in the Bible always refers to a person/people and NOT the actions of a man/people] he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, in order that he might be the firstborn among many brothers. 30 And those whom he predestined he also called [an efficacious call that cannot be rejected], and those whom he called he also justified, and those whom he justified he also glorified.
5. Romans 9:16 So then it depends not on human will or exertion [nations cannot “will” or “exert”], but on God, who has mercy.

etc., etc., etc.

Aside: If God truly wished everyone to have an opportunity to believe in Christ by self-determination (free will/dualism), He would at a minimum have given everyone without exception an opportunity to hear the gospel. HE DOES NOT DO SO ... if HE truly loved the world (everyone without exception as free-will dualism proposes, then HE would ensure that everyone without exception would have an opportunity to believe in Christ by self-determination (free will/dualism) ... HE DOES NOT DO SO.

If God does not determine who will believe and be saved as self-determination/freewill/dualism proposes ... how are those who are aborted or die in infancy to be saved?
Etc. etc. etc.

 

[GodsGrace]

agreed

The statement lack foundation, so I will respond in kind:
.... especially when it comes to the teachings of for_his-gloryism and her theories and random definition of scripture that does not support her theories.

You also. I don't agree with some of your theology... but I see you as a fine Christian.

1. Matthew 11:27 All things have been entrusted and delivered to Me by My Father; and no one fully knows and accurately understands the Son except the Father, and no one fully knows and accurately understands the Father except the Son and anyone to whom the Son deliberately wills to make Him known. [the will of the Son determines who knows God, not the will of man by the power of dualism]
2. John 1:12 But to as many as did receive and welcome Him, He gave the authority (power, privilege, right) to become the children of God, that is, to those who believe in (adhere to, trust in, and rely on) His name— 13 Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh [the flesh is carnal and flesh always lusteth against the Spirit], nor of the will of man, but of GOD. Martin Luther: they become the sons of God, neither by the birth of the flesh, nor by a devoted observance of the law, nor by any devoted human effort whatever, but by a Divine birth only. Those three negative statements stress the fact that salvation is not obtainable through any racial or ethnic heritage ( blood ), personal desire ( flesh ), or man-made system ( man ). (See also Matt. 8:11–12; Luke 3:8; Gal. 3:28–29.) John MacArthur
3. John 3:27 John replied, “A man can receive nothing [he can claim nothing at all] unless it has been granted to him from heaven [for there is no other source than the sovereign will of God]. Does man have a “Free-will” over God, that God should do and obey in those things which man will? Surely not. Yet, this is what "free will", self-determination teaches. Oh praise the power of man who can save himself against God's statement "that no one seeks God"
4. Romans 8:28 And we know that for those who love God all things [divine undertakings-divine foreknowledge, divine predestination, divine calling, divine justification and glorification] work together for good, for those who are called [effectual call] according to his purpose [God’s purpose CANNOT be thwarted]. 29 For those whom he foreknew [foreknown in the Bible always refers to a person/people and NOT the actions of a man/people] he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, in order that he might be the firstborn among many brothers. 30 And those whom he predestined he also called [an efficacious call that cannot be rejected], and those whom he called he also justified, and those whom he justified he also glorified.
5. Romans 9:16 So then it depends not on human will or exertion [nations cannot “will” or “exert”], but on God, who has mercy.

etc., etc., etc.

Aside: If God truly wished everyone to have an opportunity to believe in Christ by self-determination (free will/dualism), He would at a minimum have given everyone without exception an opportunity to hear the gospel. HE DOES NOT DO SO ... if HE truly loved the world (everyone without exception as free-will dualism proposes, then HE would ensure that everyone without exception would have an opportunity to believe in Christ by self-determination (free will/dualism) ... HE DOES NOT DO SO.

If God does not determine who will believe and be saved as self-determination/freewill/dualism proposes ... how are those who are aborted or die in infancy to be saved?
Etc. etc. etc.

?

Why don't you find out what BY THE WILL OF MAN means?
It has something to do with works.

Not ALL of Romans 9 is speaking about nations. That's rather silly of you to think so.
And YOU believe God has mercy?
LOL - a calvinist that believes God has mercy and yet let's the reprobate drown.
Good thing humans don't practice that kind of mercy....

And you're still worried about infants that die.
Doesn't one of your systematic theology books explain this to you?
And you can't figure it out on your own?
Maybe you should consider reading the ideas of other Christians that are mainline and give their beliefs some thought?

And ? the N.T. clearly explains that ALL men, mankind, knows that God exists, or at the least, they CAN know that He exists.

 

[for_his_glory]

agreed

The statement lack foundation, so I will respond in kind:
.... especially when it comes to the teachings of for_his-gloryism and her theories and random definition of scripture that does not support her theories.

You also. I don't agree with some of your theology... but I see you as a fine Christian.

1. Matthew 11:27 All things have been entrusted and delivered to Me by My Father; and no one fully knows and accurately understands the Son except the Father, and no one fully knows and accurately understands the Father except the Son and anyone to whom the Son deliberately wills to make Him known. [the will of the Son determines who knows God, not the will of man by the power of dualism]
2. John 1:12 But to as many as did receive and welcome Him, He gave the authority (power, privilege, right) to become the children of God, that is, to those who believe in (adhere to, trust in, and rely on) His name— 13 Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh [the flesh is carnal and flesh always lusteth against the Spirit], nor of the will of man, but of GOD. Martin Luther: they become the sons of God, neither by the birth of the flesh, nor by a devoted observance of the law, nor by any devoted human effort whatever, but by a Divine birth only. Those three negative statements stress the fact that salvation is not obtainable through any racial or ethnic heritage ( blood ), personal desire ( flesh ), or man-made system ( man ). (See also Matt. 8:11–12; Luke 3:8; Gal. 3:28–29.) John MacArthur
3. John 3:27 John replied, “A man can receive nothing [he can claim nothing at all] unless it has been granted to him from heaven [for there is no other source than the sovereign will of God]. Does man have a “Free-will” over God, that God should do and obey in those things which man will? Surely not. Yet, this is what "free will", self-determination teaches. Oh praise the power of man who can save himself against God's statement "that no one seeks God"
4. Romans 8:28 And we know that for those who love God all things [divine undertakings-divine foreknowledge, divine predestination, divine calling, divine justification and glorification] work together for good, for those who are called [effectual call] according to his purpose [God’s purpose CANNOT be thwarted]. 29 For those whom he foreknew [foreknown in the Bible always refers to a person/people and NOT the actions of a man/people] he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, in order that he might be the firstborn among many brothers. 30 And those whom he predestined he also called [an efficacious call that cannot be rejected], and those whom he called he also justified, and those whom he justified he also glorified.
5. Romans 9:16 So then it depends not on human will or exertion [nations cannot “will” or “exert”], but on God, who has mercy.

etc., etc., etc.

Aside: If God truly wished everyone to have an opportunity to believe in Christ by self-determination (free will/dualism), He would at a minimum have given everyone without exception an opportunity to hear the gospel. HE DOES NOT DO SO ... if HE truly loved the world (everyone without exception as free-will dualism proposes, then HE would ensure that everyone without exception would have an opportunity to believe in Christ by self-determination (free will/dualism) ... HE DOES NOT DO SO.

If God does not determine who will believe and be saved as self-determination/freewill/dualism proposes ... how are those who are aborted or die in infancy to be saved?
Etc. etc. etc.

None of us knows the ways of God and we can not assume anything of His judgements. I do consider you as my brother. In the Lord, but we will never agree on many things of this nature.

 

[JAG ..]

Well Jag....
You've got yourself a very interesting conflict in scripture here.

Was Jesus correct in saying that only a few find the narrow gate?
Was He wrong?
Does the majority of persons you know on the road to the narrow gate?

OR

Is there a great multitude that is going to be saved?
Someone on this thread has already reconciled this conflict,
but, apparently, you didn't read post no. 4 by Doug Brents .

@DougBrents

Wondering,
Humans put forth their own interpretation of Matthew 7:13-14 and their own
interpretation has consequences. Their own interpretation of Matthew 7:13-14
also tells us what they think God is like in His nature. The interpretation of
Matthew 7:13-14 presented by the three schools of Pessimistic Eschatology.
which are {1) Amillennialism (2) Premillennialism (3) Dispensationalism present
God as deliberately choosing to create a race of untold billions of His human
creatures knowing BEFORE He choose to create them that the majority of them
would spend an eternity screaming in agony in the pits of eternal Hell. And many
of these folks tell us not only will the majority of God's human creatures scream in Hell
for all eternity, but it will be the overwhelming vast majority that scream in agony in
Hell for all eternity. Then in the next breath they tell us that God is LOVE and full of
kindness and compassion.

My view is that their free-will-chosen interpretation of Matthew 7:13-14 is wrong. It's
not right to do that. It's not a good thing to do that. It's a bad thing to interpret
Matthew 7:13-14 in such a way that portrays God as being the kind of Being that
would create untold billions of human beings knowing BEFORE He created them that
the majority would end up screaming in agony in Hell for all eternity, but then knowing
that, went ahead and created them anyway, but this is exactly and precisely what their
interpretation of Matthew 7;13-14 means and they cannot escape from this their
portrayal of the nature of God. Their interpretation of Matthew 7:13-14 tells you,
that on their interpretation of Matthew 7;13-14, God has done exactly that.

What is the solution to this? There is an alternative interpretation of Matthew
7:13-14 that is reasonable and it says Matthew 7:13-14 describes ONLY the very bad
spiritual conditions of the 1st century when Jesus spoke the words of Matthew 7:13-14
in that 1st century generation of Jews who ended up rejecting Him as their Savior and
ultimately murdered the innocent Lord Jesus. Indeed only a relatively few in that 1st
century generation, did find the Lord Jesus as their Savior. But that 1st century generation
is NOT representative of the entire human race and all future human generations and
there is NOT a single Bible verse that says it is. So? So you don't have to believe that
it is representative. You can use your free will to choose NOT to believe that it is
representative of the entire human race.

So?

So the three schools of Pessimistic Eschatology {1) Amillennialism (2) Premillennialism
(3) Dispensationalism do NOT have to interpret Matthew7:13-14 as being historically
predictive of the future of the human race. they use their free will to choose to interpret
Matthew 7:13-14 that way ~~ and it's wrong to do that. It's not right. It's not a good
thing to do, to interpret Matthew 7:13-14 in such as way that presents God as being
the kind of Being that creates untold billions of human beings knowing BEFORE He
created them, that the majority of them would end up screaming in agony in Hell for
all eternity.

Best Regards,

JAG


``

 

[JAG ..]

This is well put.

As I said above, the two perspectives are both correct when viewed from the proper perspective. The "multitude" looks at the whole body of who is being saved. The "few" looks at the percentage of each generation that is being saved out of the total of that generation.

So if the total of those who are saved is in the Billions (the multitude, the few), then Trillions upon Quadrillions will be lost (the many).

Hi Doug,
Thanks.
And thanks for your input.
See my post to wondering just above.

Best.

JAG

`

 

[GodsGrace]

Hi Doug,
Thanks.
And thanks for your input.
See my post to wondering just above.

Best.

JAG

`

Ummmm.
I agree with Doug....
That's why I said you didn't read his post.
More tomorrow....

 

[Doug Brents]

Hi Doug,
Thanks.
And thanks for your input.
See my post to wondering just above.

Best.

JAG

JAG, I appreciate what you are saying.
God is LOVE. But He is also JUST.
He is merciful. But He is also vengeful.

Rom 9:19-24 tells us that God shows His power, mercy, and wrath through His endurance of the evil of those who He has not chosen.

Look at the image below:

Do you believe that all religions are equal? No, they are not. Jesus is the ONLY name under Heaven in which you must (can) be saved. So muslims, jw, mormon, hindus, buddhists, judiasm, etc. will not be saved.

If all of the people who claim to be Christian really are saved, then there will still be less than one in three TODAY who will be saved. Now consider that there are many of that 31.2% who claim to be Christian be do not honor Christ (mormon, jw, catholic), and those who continue to live sinful lifestyles; and so (I believe) are not really saved. If even half of the 31.2% are self-deceived, that would make the the proportion of those saved more like one in six, or maybe one in ten.

That is today, not 2000 years ago. It may have been worse 2000 years ago (Jesus' name had just begun to be preached), but Matt 7:13-14 is no less applicable today than it was in the first century.

I hope this helps.

 

[JAG ..]

JAG, I appreciate what you are saying.
God is LOVE. But He is also JUST.
He is merciful. But He is also vengeful.

Rom 9:19-24 tells us that God shows His power, mercy, and wrath through His endurance of the evil of those who He has not chosen.

Look at the image below:
View attachment 11822
Do you believe that all religions are equal? No, they are not. Jesus is the ONLY name under Heaven in which you must (can) be saved. So muslims, jw, mormon, hindus, buddhists, judiasm, etc. will not be saved.

If all of the people who claim to be Christian really are saved, then there will still be less than one in three TODAY who will be saved. Now consider that there are many of that 31.2% who claim to be Christian be do not honor Christ (mormon, jw, catholic), and those who continue to live sinful lifestyles; and so (I believe) are not really saved. If even half of the 31.2% are self-deceived, that would make the the proportion of those saved more like one in six, or maybe one in ten.

That is today, not 2000 years ago. It may have been worse 2000 years ago (Jesus' name had just begun to be preached), but Matt 7:13-14 is no less applicable today than it was in the first century.

I hope this helps.

Thanks for your comments Doug.
I will stand pat on what I have said in my post 34.
I think this is the link to my post 34.

Bible Study - Will Only A Few People Be Saved? No. A Great Multitude Will Be Saved.

Much to ponder. That's what makes it interesting. The problem is, there's too much to take in and each of us has bias to over come. I've heard several people on this forum discredit theologians that have studied scripture for decades and have a gift for teaching. This is a grave mistake...

christianforums.net

Any comments I have, would only be a repeat of what I presented in my post 34.
Best Regards.
JAG

 

[Fastfredy0]

Re: Will Only A Few People Be Saved? No. A Great Multitude Will Be Saved.

If all of the people who claim to be Christian really are saved, then there will still be less than one in three TODAY who will be saved. Now consider that there are many of that 31.2% who claim to be Christian be do not honor Christ (mormon, jw, catholic), and those who continue to live sinful lifestyles; and so (I believe) are not really saved. If even half of the 31.2% are self-deceived, that would make the the proportion of those saved more like one in six, or maybe one in ten.

Ah, finally someone that can tabulate the empirical evidence. Good analysis.
Maximum of 31.2%. I can accept10% of people who say they are Christians are such (aside: I would have picked 5%) so that leaves 3% of world population that are saved. The wording of the topic is subjective as "Few" and "Great Multitude" are not defined. Good point that those identifying as Christians after Christ's death could probably be rounded off to 0% and increasing with time.

Aside: A number of people on this forum believe adults can be saved without hearing of Christ.

Aside: (Estimate of number of grains of sand on earth)
Adding up the sand from all the beaches and deserts in the world, the Earth has approximately (and this is very rough estimate) 7.5 times 10 to power of 18 grains of sand, or in another words, seven quintillion, five hundred quadrillion grains. (google search)

Aside: Number of stars in the universe
The number of stars in a galaxy varies, but assuming an average of 100 billion stars per galaxy means that there are about 1,000,000,000,000,000,000,000 (that's 1 billion trillion) stars in the observable universe! (google search)

 

[JLB]

I always thought that Jesus was saying the number will be few by saying that the expanse that we Christians (not outside the church but we Christians) travel is quite broad but narrow is the Way which is Him. There are quite a few distractions and idlos along the broad expanse. Will most of us actually find and stay in the Way?. I know God is not into quantities to accomplish His purposes (Gideon), but I think Jesus may be saying that few in number will be saved as opposed to perhaps those numbers to which He may have wished would have been saved
"but they would not".

Love your Avatar name. Awesome.